Stand by for many stupid questions....

[Kent E. Matthew]

1. Cabinet or contractor table saw?
2. My budget says contractor. Am I really missing out on something special if a pass on the cabinet saw and buy a jointer with the savings?
3. I looked at a Rikon jointer and the whole thing is just built like a tank. Anyone have one of these?
4. How many of you own a shaper?
5. Is a shaper really worth the cash?
6. Any of you own a Grizzly shaper? Any reviews of their 1 1/2 horse shaper?

Thank you all and please be gentle.

[glenn bradley]

1. Cabinet or contractor table saw?
2. My budget says contractor. Am I really missing out on something special if a pass on the cabinet saw and buy a jointer with the savings?
3. I looked at a Rikon jointer and the whole thing is just built like a tank. Anyone have one of these?
4. How many of you own a shaper?
5. Is a shaper really worth the cash?
6. Any of you own a Grizzly shaper? Any reviews of their 1 1/2 horse shaper?

Thank you all and please be gentle.

You asked . . . this is only my opinion; others will surely follow and contradict:


I was caught with a contractor and wasn't able to go to a full cabinet saw . . . solution: hybrid.
I am soooo much happier now.
Everyone said "don't buy a 6", go straight to an 8" . . . I bought a 6", now saving for an 8" and am going to EAT the loss on the 6".
I bought the big Milwaukee and put it in a router table; IMHO, best of both worlds (I'm gonna get it for that one).
Not to me, your mileage may vary.
No shaper here.Good luck. Enjoy the responses and your quest!

[Bill Eshelman]

Hi Kent,
What is it you are trying to build that interests you in the shaper?
I think the answer to that will help everyone help you.

:)
Bill E

[Paul Johnstone]

1. Cabinet or contractor table saw?
2. My budget says contractor. Am I really missing out on something special if a pass on the cabinet saw and buy a jointer with the savings?


I've had a contractor's saw for about 14 years. I could afford to upgrade it, but it suits my needs fine. I use a good ripping blade for ripping. On a cabinet saw, there's more power, so some just use a combination blade for ripping. Dust collection is better on a cabinet saw, but you can "box" in the area under the saw and get ok (not great) DC...
Thus, I think a contractor's saw is fine.



3. I looked at a Rikon jointer and the whole thing is just built like a tank. Anyone have one of these?


I have the Rikon Bandsaw and I love it. I'd read the reviews, but I've been pretty impressed with Rikon.




4. How many of you own a shaper?
5. Is a shaper really worth the cash?
6. Any of you own a Grizzly shaper? Any reviews of their 1 1/2 horse shaper?

I think you're better off making a router table. A shaper is better for some things.. but for a hobbyist, a router table is fine.. The downside is you'll have to take multiple passes sometimes. I've heard that a shaper makes a better cut, but I can't complain about the results I get on a router table.

[Chris McDowell]

Kent I agree with Bill. It would help greatly to know what kind of work you are going to do and how much as well. As for the contractor to the cabinet saw, I know a lot of people that do very fine work on a contractor saw, provided of course that it is an accurate one. If you can only get the jointer by buying the contractor saw, I would definitely go that way for now. You can have the best saw in the world and it won't help much if you don't have straight true lumber.
As for the shaper that goes back to what you are doing. You can do a lot of work on a good router table. If you plan to be making a lot of raised panel doors, I would suggest a shaper but that just depends on how much of that type work you'll be getting into. A few doors and a good router will be fine, forty doors and that's a whole other ball game. Good luck.

[Rob Will]

I had a contractor saw for years but now that I have a cabinet saw I'm sure not missing it.:D

Personally, I think you will be happier in the long run if you buy the very best table saw you can afford. I would consider something like a left tilt Unisaw with a 50" Beisemeyer fence. After healing up from that purchase I would add a router lift (Bench Dog?) to the table saw and equip it with a PC 7518 router in place of buying a shaper.

As far as the jointer goes, I would look for a used 8" or bigger. I saw a nice used 8" Powermatic a few weeks ago for $300.

Keep in mind that you or somebody in your family might be using the same table saw 30 years from now. A table saw is the foundation of your shop. Treat yourself to a good one and a year from now you will say you made the right decision.

Good luck,
Rob

[richard poitras]

In regards to the shaper / router table … I have one comment you can buy more router bites for the price of one shaper head / cuter … just something else to consider when pricing out the big picture

[Phil Clark]

First off - there are no stupid questions

Because of dust control and stability, if you can afford it, I would go with the Delta hybrid unless you really need the 3 hp motor for power and production. If you do there is no choice.

You should be saving so you can get an 8 inch jointer. When I was in your shoes I went looking for used even if it meant travelling outside the city to get it. A 6 inch jointer really affects your choice of material. When you get to starting with rough cut lumber from the sawmill instead of dimentsional lumber from the local yard, you will be happy you made the effort because you will often start with wider boards.

I've been building my shop for more than thirty years and have pretty much all the machinery you would want. IMHO, even though I have a restored 60 year old Rockwell shaper, I don't think you need one. I happen to be nuts about machinery. Routers are incredibly versatile. You will find that many of us who have been working wood for some time have more than one. You don't need to go high end. The work horse is the Porter Cable 690 variable speed router that is often on sale at your favorite toy store. Avoid cheap router bits and only buy bits you are going to use.

Good luck and enjoy the trip

[Kent E. Matthew]

The question has been asked a couple of times. What do I intend to do? A better question would be what don't I intend to do? Kitchen cabinets, bedroom set, bookshelves, old fashion oak wainscotting for one wall in the house, buffet, ect, ect, ect. A whole lifetime of projects. If I complete half I'll be happy.

[Mitchell Andrus]

I buy tools that I'll grow into, not out of.

[Andrew Williams]

With all that stuff you want to build I think you might consider just getting the cabinet saw now and save yourself having to upgrade later. I think they are safer, more precise, better dust control, and far easier to align.



The question has been asked a couple of times. What do I intend to do? A better question would be what don't I intend to do? Kitchen cabinets, bedroom set, bookshelves, old fashion oak wainscotting for one wall in the house, buffet, ect, ect, ect. A whole lifetime of projects. If I complete half I'll be happy.

[Don Bullock]

Kent, don't be afraid of asking questions here. I'm fairly new myself and I've found that the people here to be very patient with those of us who are returning to woodworking and those who are totally new to the hobby.

Judging from the book shelves that you posted on another thread, I think you're ready for a cabinet saw (Andrew in the post above covers all my reasons). You'll be a lot happier with one and not wish to upgrade so soon after getting one, especially since you want to make fairly large furniture, cabinets, wainscotting etc. and a full lifetime worth of projects. From your other posts it looks like you have been looking at used machines. Hopefully you know what to look for in a used saw. Searching through the forums and asking more questions may help there. If we knew where you are, perhaps someone could help out with your search. Since you're planning this lifetime list of projects, I'd suggest that it would be prudent to by the absolute best tools that you can possibly budget rather than go cheap and have to upgrade sooner. As the saying goes, "Pay ne now or pay me later." It really fits when talking about woodworking machines. I sure wish you the best in your search.

[Anthony Smaldone]

I used to own a Delta contractor saw....It was fine for a while (till I got into bigger thicker work. If you plan on sticking to 4/4 hardwood, and 6/4 softwood then a contractor will be fine. It will cut thicker wood, but you will bog down, burn the wood, or get saw marks. But ! a jointer could fix that up if you account for it. I upgraded to a combo sliding table saw, Shaper ( Robland ) after a few tweeks, and changes ( added a better fence) the saw is fine, and the shaper has workes like a charm. I have built over 50 entry doors with that shaper.
I also have a robland Jointer/ planer combo. also no complaints. A 12' joiner is nice. They have small footprints, so if space is a concern you may want to think of them for future upgrades

good luck

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Kent, many of us went from a contractor saw to a cabinet saw, or even a format saw. A cabinet saw will last you a lifetime, and since it stays in alignment, it saves a lot of agravation when you are using it. A contractor saw is OK if you aren't ripping thick hardwoods. I have a General 650 cabinet saw with an Excalibur overarm guard, Merlin splitter and a Jessem mitre gauge.

You didn't mention dust collection, do you have a system? If not, that would be on my priority list before more machinery. I have an Oneida 1 1/2 HP cyclone, which is my most appreciated tool purchase.

I have a 6 inch jointer (General International), and it is more than adequate for my needs, because the most common wood I use is quarter sawn white oak for Arts and Crafts furniture. Since the pieces are not normally wider than 6 inches, I have no problem and I don't have space for an 8 inch jointer. Once again it depends upon your projects.

I do own a shaper, (General International 3HP) and I do not own a router. This is not the average profile of woodworkers, however I feel that a shaper does a better job of the work I do, than a router in a table. The shaper is quiet, powerful, vibration free and accurate. In addition I can use the power feeder to improve cut quality, and my personal safety.

I recently made some display components for a museum, and I ran 1,200 feet of maple Plywood strips through the shaper to produce tongue and groove pieces. That would have been an enormous amount of time consuming work for a router table.

I do not make dovetails with a router, nor do I mortise with one, I have a General International bench top mortiser which I really like. When I made some Morris chairs for the living room, each chair had 72 mortices, the mortiser made easy fast work of them.

I often use an insert cutterhead with high speed steel knives in the shaper for solid wood. They are about $15 a pair, and produce a much nicer cut than carbide. They cannot be used on ply or MDF, for that you will need carbide cutters.

Once again, the router/shaper issue is up to the work you plan on doing. Most people choose the router, and are obviously happy with it. I decided that after buying a good router/table/fence etc, I was up to the cost of a 3HP shaper. Perhaps someone in your area will let you visit their shop to help you with the decision.

Regards, Rod.

[Dave Falkenstein]

Buy the best you can afford to buy now, so that you are content working with the tools. It is likely you will upgrade some of your tools later as your skill grows and your needs change.

Used tools are a good alternative, if you can find them in good shape. You would be amazed at how many people buy tools and don't use them much. Look in communities of retired people for good quality used tools, if there are any of those communities where you live. On the other side of the used tool story, you can sell your tools as you decide to upgrade later, and get back a fair percentage of your investment. I have gone through almost every tool in my shop, upgrading as my situation changed. I was able to sell my old tools for about half the current street price with no problem. So your decisions today are not for life.

I'm a router table advocate for a home workshop. I had a 1-1/2HP shaper and upgraded it for a well equipped router table. The router table can do all the cuts and is far more versatile, IMHO.

[Greg Cole]

"I buy tools that I'll grow into, not out of." .... Mitch said it rather well.
So long as you don't plan on giving up the hobbuy anytime soon. And even if you do, you'll most likely not lose much $ buying good quality tools. If ya stock up on BORG tools, don't expect to get the same.
Most hobbyists don't or can't just equip a shop with every tool at once, or if the do they wind up with bench top versions, smaller ones that are underpowered or undersized.
My only "regret" is my table saw, as I bought a General contractor saw and somewhat lament not going with a cabinet saw (for dust collection and blade alignment)... but that was my first real WW'ing purchase or many. But I've upgraded about everyting possible on it and I am rather attached to it now.

[Don Bullock]

...Most hobbyists don't or can't just equip a shop with every tool at once ...

Very true. I'm purchasing tools as I need them or when I can find a great deal on one I know that I will need. Buying everything, at least for me, is out of the question, but as has already been pointed out by others, I'm buying the best tools that I can afford.


...or if the do they wind up with bench top versions, smaller ones that are underpowered or undersized...

I'm already regretting the benchtop drill press, but it is all I could afford based on the other tools that I have bought. It will do the jobs I need it for right now. Hopefully I'll be able to add a full size drill press to my shop by the time I really need one.

[Ron Jones near Indy]

Like others have said, there are no stupid questions. Don't be afraid to ask questions. Sometimes many of us learn from newbie questions/answers. If space is a concern, remember that a cabinet saw w/o an extension table takes less sq. footage than a similar contractors saw. The motor sticking out the back causes a problem.

[Adam Burgess]

I agree with those who say "hybrid" if cost is an issue. the only thing I would add is to get a good fence, one that won't work it way out of alignment. I have a Delta 1 1/2 horsepower saw with a Biesemeyer fence and love it.

As far a getting a shaper, I think getting a heavy duty router would well enough, unless you plan on making production moldings. router bits are less expensive and the router will be more versatile/handheld.

[mark page]

As my philosophy goes--Pay once and cry once. Analyze what your future needs will be based upon the work you prefer to do and buy accordingly. Get the best equipment you can possibly afford even if having to save a little longer to do it. I am lucking in that LOML backs me on this too. If I am at a ponder between two items due to a cost factor, she will state get the better one as you will only have to buy it one time. Only downfall with me is my shop is starting to get cramped as all the items I have acquired are meant in mind for my future shop, although that will have to wait several years.

[Kent E. Matthew]

I think everyone here has sold me on a cabinet or hybrid. I have about 50 3" x 5" x 42" chunks of red oak that I will be cutting up and using. I think I will need the extra power.

[Paul Simmel]

Kent,

By far the vast majority of members here are TS centric.

After 12 or so years I just purchased my first TS, but that’s because until recently I had no need for panel processing on a larder scale.

There are two essential machines: jointer and planer.

Then, your choice of what machine you will use for ripping: TS or BS.

As to shaper or router… as an essential… the no brainier is the shaper. But you will need routers too.

-=-=-=-

Early on I started WW’ing with carpentry tools, because… well, I’m a carpenter.

As a solid-lumber furniture guy, my first three machines were a jointer, a planer, a BS, and the Grizzly 1.5 hp shaper. Between various cross-cut tools (CMS RAS), a few cheap routers, there was nothing I couldn’t do.

I’ve been building a new home now for the past year, and have a 80% setup 3-car shop. I am milling all mouldings (base/crowns/casings, etc.) and building all cabinetry/built-ins from scratch, and all new furniture, beaded ceiling material, and a finished staircase. As part of the budget, I have added the following machines/items.

10’ cabinet saw

SF mini moulder

2 - 7805 PC routers (still in boxes)

6” x80” edge sander

Mortising machine

Makita jointer/planer knife-sharpening system

WW-I and WW-II blades

6” DC duct work and 5 - 6” blast gates (using same 1.5 hp initial setup)

$29.00 Grizzly DP auxiliary table (awesome).

The above is essential for my upcoming new projects, primarily because of time considerations… but I could never run 5.5” crown on a shaper (let alone a router).

(The fence alone on that shaper you have your eye on is worth more than any RT setup out there. And that shaper you have your eye on comes with a router bit collett so you can use all your bits)

FWIW, Kent, you have to evaluate your WW’ing needs. Understanding what each tool does, will help you determine what you need for now, but as your needs grow, so will your tools/machinery.

Hope this helps.