nubie question about cutting joints for small boxes

[Darcy Schaffer]

Ok, here's the condensed version of my problem:
What small footprint saw will cut accurate 90 degree crosscuts or 45 degree miter cuts in smallish pieces of wood to be used for making boxes?



Now the long version:
I'm fairly new to woodworking but have been turning bowls on my lathe for some time. I've always been fascinated with wooden boxes and would like to make an attempt at creating some. The only tools I currently own are a Dewalt 618 multibase router and table and a few hand tools (#3 plane and japanese saw).

My question is what tool can I use to to crosscut small boards (cherry, walnut, etc.) into small box sized square pieces (say boxes of around 8" in length) ? I plan on starting with purchased stock so won't need a jointer or planer. All I need to do is take that purchased wood and cut it to length with a nice square edge or better yet, a nice 45 degree miter edge.

My first thought was to get a powered miter saw but from reading the forums no one seems to think highly of their accuracy.

The common approach seems to be a table saw but I don't have the space for one and it seems overkill for small boxes.

I'm thinking of just buying a circular saw and using it with a straight edge but I don't know if the CS is capable of making accurate square or mitered cuts.

So many tools...so little experience. Help!

Darcy

[Scott Loven]

Have you tried making a hand miter box (http://www.inlay.com/marquetry/wood_inlay_part1.html)to use with your Japanese saw or a shooting board (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=shooting+board&gbv=2)to use with your plane?
Scott

[Darcy Schaffer]

Yes, I've tried both but with limited success. I just can't hand saw straight enough to build boxes to my satisfaction.

I did build a shooting board and believe this will work given enough time to square the edges. My first few attempts have been less than ideal as I keep nicking the corner off the board. I know this is technique that I'll have to learn but I'm hoping there's a decent alternative. I'll likely need to buy a better plane or at least a better blade so I'll have to spend some cash anyway...might as well buy the proper tool if there is one.

[Lee Schierer]

Mitered corners are not terribly strong when it comes to making box corners. I would recommend dovetails, finger joints or locking rabbet joints for stronger boxes. A table saw will require far less effort to get nice square ends on your pieces. Out of square pieces will make your box assembly much more difficult.

Here is a locking rabbet joint in a small boxhttp://home.earthlink.net/~us71na/maplebox.jpg

[Darcy Schaffer]

Thanks and I understand about the strength of mitered joints. I do have the router and am halfway through building a finger joint jig for it. Unfortunately, part of the process of building the jig means that I need to cut some lumber fairly squarely...doh!

From browsing around the forum, I realize the table saw is the tool of choice but I've had a small, inexpensive one in the past that just didn't do the job. Buying a large accurate table saw seems to be unlikely given the space that I have available.

[Darcy Schaffer]

Meant to say nice box by the way...that's exactly the kind of thing I'd like to attempt!!

Can you tell me what you use to build the joints? Are you using a benchtop table saw or one of the stationary types?

[Heather Deans]

Hi Darcy-
I think you really only have two good options.... the first (and probably best option) would be a band saw with a fence and miter slot/guide. Properly tuned, you can do a heck of a lot with a band saw, and the table tilts so you could even to your 45 degree miters (I would use both a fence and a featherboard for this). It also takes up the pre-requesite small shop footprint! Your other option would be a small bench top table saw. I'm not as fond of this for several reasons.... First, you will find your self very limited with a table saw of that size if you ever decide to do bigger projects. I'm a bit more hesitant with a table saw and small pieces than I am with a band saw. I also am not very familiar with the smaller saws, and I really don't know how accurate/clean you can work with them. I don't recommend a circular saw simply because it sounds like you're working with small pieces, and trying to a)clamp/hold what you're cutting and b) see what your cutting are both challenges I don't think you can solve with a hand held! Good luck!
Heather

[Dave Falkenstein]

I would opt for a decent miter saw. Those that complain about a miter saw's accuracy might be looking for more accuracy than you will need for boxes. Be sure the crosscut capacity is sufficient for your needs. I have made lots of boxes with material cut on a decent quality miter saw, and people relyy like them and don't see the miniscule flaws that only I can see. Think about moving up into a small router table and then you can do very nice box and/or dovetail joints with a relatively small investment. Or look for some good quality used tools.

[Darcy Schaffer]

Heather:

The bandsaw is actually high on my list as I can use it for bowl blanks. It's also partially why I'm limited on space as the little I have is reserved for this. Having said that, I don't have the budget for it right now so...

I see what you mean about the circular saw and small pieces...good point!

And I'm resisting the table saw partly because of the potential bandsaw purchase in the future...

Dave:
Maybe you're right. This really was my first choice when I started researching for a solution....maybe I'll rethink the miter saw.

Miter saw and my exisiting plane and shooting board (with a little practice) might just do what I need until I purchase the bandsaw.

Others have said it before but this place is an amazing resource for information. I spend way too much time reading and seeing what you guys are capable of...:)

Thanks

[Andrew Williams]

Sounds like a full-blind dovetail would be the joint for you. It has the looks of a miter joint and the strength of a dovetail. Tage Frid shows how to make them with only hand tools in his book (book 1, joinery).

[Darcy Schaffer]

Thanks for the info...I'll do a search and see if I can pick up the book.

[Loren Hedahl]

Everything in woodworking seems to be geared to 10 inch (or larger) circular saw diameters with a lot of heavy metal to dampen out the vibration of out-of-balance blades, out-of-round pulleys, stiff belts, etc. Bigger is better. Five hundred pounds of cast iron, five horsepower and 220 volts three phase coupled with a six inch hose and another five horse power to collect the dust. -- end of rant --

Why not a small table saw?

I saw a cute little old table saw at a used place a couple of weeks ago for a lousy fifteen bucks. It needed some TLC, a motor mount and a motor. Rip fence wasn't anything to write home about and no miter gage, but was tilting arbor and had standard 3/4 inch grooves in a thin cast iron table. Looked like a 7-1/4 inch blade would fit it just fine.

Should have bought it myself, since I find my major use is for small projects such as yours and the saw was well made.

Loren

[Darcy Schaffer]

Thanks for the suggestion Loren,

I've thought about a used small tablesaw and I've been looking in the area for a short while (Portland, OR) but haven't found much in used equipment. I'm thinking of hitting garage sales to see if I can stumble upon something useful but it's really a shot in the dark. My experience with small CHEAP saws hasn't been good but I don't have a problem with a small accurate saw if I can find one.

[glenn bradley]

There are folks who make 'mini' table saws for the modeling hobbyist. Byrne makes a 4"

http://www.byrnesmodelmachines.com/tablesaw.html

Preac is another maker:

http://www.preac.com/table_saw.htm

the footprint is extremely small but the price is not so small however, they are reviewed as very accurate little buggers.

[Darcy Schaffer]

Thanks Glenn and Wow, I've never seen anything like those little buggars. They're a little too specialized I think but they certainly get added to my "wish I could" list.

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Darcy,

I think a good mitre saw would work well for you. A hand saw mitre box may also work for you. It takes the guess work out of using a hand saw.

Do you have a slot to put a mitre gage on your router table?

I think it was the older Roibi (sp?)small table saw that recieved good review and had a small sliding table. Model BT3000?

[Chris Friesen]

My question is what tool can I use to to crosscut small boards (cherry, walnut, etc.) into small box sized square pieces (say boxes of around 8" in length) ? ...My first thought was to get a powered miter saw but from reading the forums no one seems to think highly of their accuracy.

Don't know what you've been reading, but a 10" non-slider miter saw can be very accurate, especially if you clamp the workpieces to the fence.

I've had a Dewalt for years. One of the nice things about it is that you can tweak the location of the detents for absolute accuracy. It also doesn't vary once dialed in unless you seriously abuse it.

Combined with a miter shooting board for your hand plane and you should be set.

Alternately, a hand-powered miter box with guides would certainly do the trick, and would be a lot quieter. I can't open the Lee Valley site right now, but I know they carry at least two models.

Chris

[Darcy Schaffer]

Thanks again to everyone for responding. I appreciate all the help and decided to go for a small table saw for the versatility it offers. I ended up buying the Dewalt because of its rack and pinion fence and because it fits under my workbench so takes up no space when not in use.

I used it to finish building a crosscut sled and my first box yesterday. Seemed to work very well and I look forward to more.

I'll post some photos once I get the box finished so you can all see just how much practice I need :o.

Darcy