High angle frog?

[Terry Bigelow]

I see that LN makes low-angle frog's to replace the stadard ones in some of their bench planes. I believe #4 and #4 1/2. It says they will NOT fit other maker's planes. My question is if their planes are modeled after the the Stanley Bedrock series, why wouldn't they fit an old Bedrock? I have a #604 1/2 and would love to get one of those 50 or 55 degree frogs if it'll fit. Anybody try to fit one?

[Jim Newman]

There are differences between the Stanley and Lie Nielsen mating surfaces between the bodies and frogs. These must mate exactly to produce chatter free cuts as the frog is what holds your plane blade. This is one big reason Lie Nielsen planes are superior to the Stanley Bedrocks....try one and you will be able to feel the difference immediately!

[Jim Newman]

BTW, standard angle frogs are 45 degrees and high angle frogs are 50 degrees (also known as York Pitch) on Bench planes. The bevels are down on bench planes and on low angle planes the bevels are up and are normally much thicker irons (on modern low angle planes) as there is no frog to hold the iron. Low angle planes are a different animal from bench planes and were made to cut end grain originally. Lie-Nielsen changed this concept with their much more refined set of low angle planes and started a revolution that Lee Valley has picked up on.

[Terry Bigelow]

Two things: first, whoops! I meant HIGH-angle, not low. My bad. And I fully understand the concept of york pitch and such. Actually, I am very close to buying the Lie Nielson low-angle jack (Stanley #62) and that's how I happened upon seeing the HIGH-angle frog's. I have only one high-angle plane in my arsenal and it is a hong-kong woody I got for about $25.00. It works like a champ on the tricky grained stuff, it's just a little small.
Secondly, what makes you say there is such a BIG difference between the Bedrocks and the LN's? Why do you think they are so superior? I have quite the collection of Bedrocks (603,604,604 1/2,605,606 and 607) and have used the LN version of the 604 1/2 and didn't find any significant difference other than the tight adjustments by the LN. Granted, I didn't take the LN apart but I thought the way the frog and bed mates were the same as the Bedrocks. What is so different?

[Mike Henderson]

Why not contact Lie-Nielsen and ask them if the frog will fit a Bedrock. It's a sale to them so I'm sure they'll tell you. And I've always found them quite helpful. If it doesn't work, I'll bet they'll let you return it.

Mike

[Terry Bigelow]

Good idea, thanks. I'll give it a shot.

[Derek Cohen]

what makes you say there is such a BIG difference between the Bedrocks and the LN's? Why do you think they are so superior?

Terry

In my opinion, many of the differences between planes will not be apparent to most woodworkers. In such cases, planes like those sold by LN and LV, amongst others, are generally overkill with regard to performance. And so they are purchased because they look nice and have prestige. Nothing wrong with that - it is just one area of pleasure with handtools, but it has nothing to do with better and best.

Planes like the LNs, LV, Bed Rocks and basic Stanleys are all equalised when the wood used is not demanding. Nice straight grained stuff that is predictable and will not tear out even if you use a blunt green Kunz, well how would you tell which is better, best?

So what percentage of woodworkers work woods with difficult, interlinked grain? Who works hard, abrasive timber that separates out the blades for durability?

The Stanleys are great planes for softwoods. Planes with 45 degree cutting angles likewise. Even 55 degrees will not get you a satisfactory result on some hardwoods. I have gone up to 65-75 degrees on a few.

But cutting angle is just one aspect of design. The way the plane integrates and how it resonates is another. The infills are great at damping vibration. Extra mass, such in a bronze #4 1/2, can do the same thing and will also translate into greater momentum, and this really helps keep a sole flat on the surface, which reduces tearout. The size of the plane's mouth is less important the higher the cutting angle (on face grain). It is the only factor where a Stanley can keep pace with a LN.

Hey, we haven't even touch on blades yet (thickness, steel types, sharpness), or cap irons ...

Food for thought.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Terry Bigelow]

I did leave out one important factor...the iron and chipbreaker. Almost all of my Bedrocks have replacement irons and chipbreakers made by Ron Hock. I think this helps them "keep up" with thier shiny new counterparts, the LN's. Maybe I wasn't clear. I just wondered what the BIG difference between Bedrocks(with thicker Hock irons and chipbreakers) and LN's is. Especially the area which Jim pointed out to be different: the mating surfaces between the frog and bed. I wasn't aware of ANY difference. I know some have disputed the imact of the "increased surface area" on both the original Stanley design and it's modern predecessor( I think Patrick Leach of "Patrick's blood and gore" is one who thinks it's over hyped). As far as the wood I work none of it is "soft". Maybe by comparison to some exotics, but I have used some of those as well(cocobolo, macassar ebony) but not regularly. Most of the wood I use is Maple(a fair amount of curly Maple), Cherry, Walnut and Quarter-sawn Oak. Nothing crazy, but the Curly Maple can pose a challenge with a poorly tuned plane. I guess what I'm saying is my Bedrocks perform to what I would consider perfection on MY selection of wood and wonder how something else can be so superior especially when they are so similar in design!

[Eddie Darby]

I just learned that LN is offering a 55 degree high-angle Frog as well now for the 2 3/8" wide planes, so if you have a 4 1/2 bench plane, you will have two options for steeper attacks.

I think the advantage of the LN is in the Ductile Iron that they use. I had a couple of Stanley planes that I flattened the sole on, and I had a couple LN planes. Just the other day I had to flatten the sole on both Stanley planes again, but not the LN planes.

From Lie-Nielsen's site:

"14. What's so special about the Ductile Iron used for all your iron body tools? Ductile Iron, also called Nodular, is a specific formula iron alloy, specially processed to produce castings of great strength, approaching that of structural steel, and ductility or elasticity. For the woodworker this means that the tool will not break if dropped on the cement floor, something that happens all too often.

I had heard good things about Ductile Iron and liked the way it machined, so I decided to see how tough our planes are. I took a machined No. 5 body casting out in the shop and threw it up to the 14-foot ceiling. The casting bounced on the cement floor but was not damaged. I did this many times but only succeeded in dinging it up.

Then I laid it on its side on the floor and went after the unsupported top edge of the side with a 10-pound sledge hammer, putting some effort behind it.

It did bend. A little.

These castings will not break. I guarantee it."

[Ryan Cathey]

How much do you guys think Tom LN is pulling in a year? Just curious.

[Ken Werner]

Good question there Ryan. My first guess would be lots. My second would be and lots more after that. On the other hand, his products are high quality, and they probably do cost alot to make. I expect he's comfortable though.
Ken

[Ryan Cathey]

Well, in an article he did for Fine Woodworking he said in response to what will come next "Well, that's the $64,000 question." or some number like that. I know he's got to make more than that in a year so I'm not sure what he was insinuating.

[Ron Brese]

Ryan,

The term he used is an old saying that puts emphasis on the question at hand.
The amount $64,000, is just the amount that has been used with this expression for quite some time and I'm sure has no relevenace to Mr. Nielsen's salary.

Ron Brese

[Ryan Cathey]

Hmm, guess I just never heard that amount with that expression. I've always heard "...and that's the million dollar question." I guess that's just inflation at work lol.

[Ron Brese]

Nothing escapes inflation not even old sayings and cliches.

Ron

[Dave Anderson NH]

That particular old saying refers to an old television game show called the $64 thousand Dollar Question. Contesants worked their way up through questions of lesser dollar value until they answered wrong and were eliminated or went on to get to the......yup, you get the idea. Hence the expression.

As a cynical note, it was determined later that the show was rigged and it was eventually pulled off the air.

[Ryan Cathey]

Huh, I didn't know that. Thanks Dave. Nice tools btw.

[Ron Brese]

Dave is exactly correct, I had forgotten all about that. If I remember correctly (and obviously that doesn't happen often) I believe that the contestant that had been portrayed to have won for several weeks came clean when he was eventually lost.

Ron Brese

I guess we should apologize to Terry for hijacking his thread.

[Ryan Cathey]

Oh yeah, I think I remember seeing something about that on VH1 or something the likes of that. Yeah, you're right...Sorry Terry.

[Mike Henderson]

Oh yeah, I think I remember seeing something about that on VH1 or something the likes of that. Yeah, you're right...Sorry Terry.
The movie was called "Quiz Show" and you can see a bit about it here (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110932/) (Internet Movie Database).

Mike

[Ryan Cathey]

Ah Ha! I'm not crazy I reeeally did see something about it. Oh well, I have alot of time to become crazy just yet. Thanks Mike.

[David Marcus Brown]

I don't think that Tom pulls in as much as you might think. He reinvests heavily in his business and he treats his employees well. Even with expansion he strives never to have to lay anyone off. Labor is expensive and so are his raw materials. I'm sure he could sell out to Irwin and make a ton but that's not why he's in it.

The cost of metals has gone up tremendously in the past few years. I'm not aware that Tom has ever increased his prices -- that continues to amaze me. I don't know how he does it. The prices he charges are fair for the quality and precision that you get. He might be comfortable but I'd bet he's not rich.

[David Marcus Brown]

Wow, this dates me but I'll answer anyway . . .

The term "$64,000 question" is tied to an old game show called the $64,000 Question -- I thought it was the $64,000 pyramid. I'm sure the reference is old and dated. People use it but many are not sure where it originates.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

I don't think that Tom pulls in as much as you might think. He reinvests heavily in his business and he treats his employees well. Even with expansion he strives never to have to lay anyone off. Labor is expensive and so are his raw materials...
I leave the guessing of LN's and Tom's personal worth to others.

If one goes to Fine Woodworking dot com and views the video interview with TLN they did at the 25th anniversary, pay attention to the machinery you see. It is mega-bucks equipment. Tom does strive to improve processes and machinery--but not at the expense of the people working with him.

Just wanted to reiterate what Dave said above.

Take care, Mike
back to 213 emails left to answer...

[Ryan Cathey]

It's really refreshing to hear of a business man like that. Just curious Mike, do you make all the saws yourself or do you employ a bunch of people?

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Hi Ryan--it's me and two of my sons.

Well, and my wife--she has to put up with us making a mess in her home. Right now there is about 600' of steel coils in the dining room and 50 some 6' brass rectangular bars leaning against the stairway...2000 boxes in the downstairs bathroom--another 1000 shipping boxes in the office...and, well, she's got the toughest job.

Take care, Mike

[Ryan Cathey]

Sounds like my room! lol. I think I might finally manage to get my very own "Wenzloff" this Christmas...only time will tell. Anyways keep up the good work...the good family operated work;)

[Dan Larson]

I realize that the pondering of Tom Lie-Nielsen's income was just good natured curiosity... and we've gotten way off topic here... but I can't resist.

It's my sincerest hope that Tom is making a very generous income. He had the business savvy recognize a blooming niche market and he continues to further help develop this market-- even to the extent of helping potential competitors develop their businesses! He also sells high quality products, offers great customer service, and has a strong commitment to his domestic workforce. In my book, he is the type of businessman who should be well rewarded for his efforts.

Dan

[Mike K Wenzloff]

...It's my sincerest hope that Tom is making a very generous income. He had the business savvy recognize a blooming niche market and he continues to further help develop this market-- even to the extent of helping potential competitors develop their businesses! ...
And I would be one of those he is helping.

TLN called me last November and invited me to participate in a couple of the west coast shows he is doing. The first of which is fast approaching outside of Portland, Oregon.

It is a very beneficent gesture for Tom to invite me to come and demonstrate and sell our wares. It will be a high-point for me.

Take care, Mike

[Dan Larson]

And I would be one of those he is helping.

TLN called me last November and invited me to participate in a couple of the west coast shows he is doing. The first of which is fast approaching outside of Portland, Oregon.

It is a very beneficent gesture for Tom to invite me to come and demonstrate and sell our wares. It will be a high-point for me.

Take care, Mike
My guess is that Tom is smart enough to have figured out that he doesn't need to convince a potential customer to buy a LN dovetail saw instead of a Wenzloff dovetail saw. He's much better off convincing that same customer to buy a couple of Wenzloff saws, a set of LN bevel edge chisels, a #4 1/2, a miter plane, and maybe a pair of skew block planes instead of a new plasma TV.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Hi Dan.

While we are all in this to support our families, Tom has started these to educate and promote hand tool use as there just isn't anything out there short of attending one of a handful of schools scattered around the country.

I think that if they continue to be well attended, there will be even more offerings in the way of classes and even more hands-on, one-on-one instruction. It's a long term view. One reason I like the idea of them.

Rob Lee once told me something very wise. He said that his competition wasn't other tool makers. It was [insert name of hobby here]. So I think that the ultimate goal is the promotion and education of hand tool use. The rest will sort itself out.

Take care, Mike

[Joel Goodman]

Mike,

Which shows will you be at? I'd like to see your saws!

Joel

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Hi Joel:

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/?pg=1

The first entries on that page. It'll be great being able to put faces to names!

Take care, Mike

[Bob Hallowell]

Rob Lee once told me something very wise. He said that his competition wasn't other tool makers. It was [insert name of hobby here]. So I think that the ultimate goal is the promotion and education of hand tool use. The rest will sort itself out.

Take care, Mike

Mike,
That's funny I was at a church leadership summit and it was said by I think Bill Hybels. "That other churches were not are competition but {insert hobby here, television and so forth}

Bob