visit to an Amish mill

[thomas prevost]

Made a delivery to a new Amish moulding mill today. All new equipment. Powermatic 20" planer, Delta 20 bandsaw. Large Delta shaper, Matheson 4 sided moulder and a Mateson molder for cutting curved stock, etc. Only difference between theirs and any other shop was instead of conduit for electricty, they ran hydrolic lines to the motors. To get around using fork trucks, They had a complex track system overhead with hydrolyic motors to move and lift the lumber, noted as I often see questions about how they run their mills without electricity and (impressive to me.)

[Don Bullock]

I wondered what they did, but can't understand why motors are OK and electricity isn't. Very interesting.

[Brad Schmid]

My folks live in Amish country in Western PA and alot of their close friends are Amish. So, when I go home to visit, we usually end up visiting with them. They all either work in mills, logging, or woodworking/cabinet shops. I can tell you this, they are creative;) Most of the Amish cabinet shops I see operate off of a diesel powered line shaft. They buy serious industrial machines, old iron and new, strip and sell or junk the motors, and hook them up via belts & pulleys to the line shaft that runs under the main shop floor.

The most interesting thing I think I have seen was a modern washing machine in a basement. But how did it run with no electric??? The motor was removed and the machine placed next to the basement wall then their was a shaft through the wall to outside and on the outside was a 2 cycle gas motor. I had to chuckle a bit, but it sure takes some figurin' to work out something like that.

BTW - as to their belief system and electricity - Amish folks interpret linking with electrical wires as a connection with the world - and they believe they are not to be conformed to the world. They don't shun electricity because they think electricity is evil itself, but because easy access to it could lead to temptations and the erosion of their church and family life. Similar with automobile ownership. Most are perfectly fine with riding in a car, and hiring cars and drivers, just not ownership.

[Howard Rosenberg]

If they allow electricity for one purpose, such as running electric motors on their equipment, they must allow electricity for other things.

Other things that use electricity just might contain influences contrary to their beliefs.

For them to stick with their beleifs and not make decisions on a situational basis, they feel it's best to completely eschew electricity.

My 2C.

Howard

[Mike Henderson]

If they allow electricity for one purpose, such as running electric motors on their equipment, they must allow electricity for other things.

Other things that use electricity just might contain influences contrary to their beliefs.
Howard
Especially television. They do have to make compromises in their beliefs, primarily so that they can compete in the world. For example, you always see horses pulling a harvester, but there may be a diesel engine on the harvester running the harvesting equipment. They just can't compete doing everything by hand, but even though diesel engines are permitted for some things, they aren't for pulling the harvester.

Years ago, young Amish men worked in hospitals, doing scutt work, instead of serving in the military. However, that changed a while back when the Amish found that too many of the men were becoming "wordly" and leaving the community. Many were marrying non-Amish women and it was almost impossible for an "English" woman to join an Amish community.

When looked at by outsiders, many of the beliefs of the Amish appear to be designed to keep Amish people, especially the children, from leaving the community - it's essentially community self preservation.

Mike

[Don Bullock]

Thanks for the answers. I have a dining table and chairs (beautiful Arts & Crafts design) in cherry that was made by an Amish woodworking/cabinet shop. My wife picked it out a couple of years ago and it's beautiful. In fact, it is one of the reasons I decided to get back into woodworking recently.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

Also, there is no "National Order" or anything like that. The leaders of each very small church (10-15 families) make the decisions on what is accepted and not accepted. So you will see Amish families in Lancaster PA with land based phone lines, those with cell phones only and those who are prohibited from owning a phone. Also, motors are not accepted in all applications. I know one family that can use a gas powered string trimmer while the other family must go at it the old fashioned way!

[thomas prevost]

In my first post, the motors I was referring to are driven by hydrolyic fluid. These motors are commonly used in explosive conditions such as refineries and chemical plants. A propane diesel engine runs the pumps for the fluid. I have been in many Amish facilities where belt drives are used. This was a very modern facility showing they are willing to modernize within the confines of their church.

Also, one way locally that the Amish get around restrictions of tier curch is to hire non Amish labor. One large saw mill n, has a non Amish man run the lifts, loaders and tucks around the mill. Some of the major outlet stores use non Amish help so they can answer phones and take orders. Mennoites are very similar to the Amish and are often mistaken for Amish. But they are a separate religion and can use electric and drive cars.

[Tyler Howell]

Thank you,
Most interesting thread.
I've learned more about wood, WW and other ways of life in this forum in the last few years than I ever knew.
Very informative.
What's the chance of getting pix if these different types of shops:o ?

[David G Baker]

Tyler,
If my information is correct the Amish folks are not too keen on having their pictures taken. Don't know about their shops and equipment.
We have quite a few horse and buggies traveling the back roads a few miles from where I live in Mid Michigan. There are a few Amish sawmills within ten miles as well. I have not been inside of one yet.
It is really neat driving by agricultural areas where the Amish farm using horse drawn equipment. Some of the equipment looks like it is 100 or so years old but still works great.

[David Weaver]

I can check to see if pictures of tools are OK - pictures of people are definitely not. A friend of mine's in laws live next to an amish bachelor carpenter who comes over to watch TV every night (guess it's OK - it's not in his house). His shop is powered by a 60hp diesel engine and hydraulic motors - the equipment is otherwise modern powermatic and Delta type stuff, with the exception of a few pieces of old iron. He's not really giving up much in terms of ability to process stock quickly and accurately, and he's got no problem with talking at length about almost any topic.

What's funny is that the thing that really really bothers him is that it's difficult to harvest all of the lost thermal energy from the diesel engine. Amish folks like efficiency - waste is not part of the equation.

[Steve Evans]

Mennoites are very similar to the Amish and are often mistaken for Amish. But they are a separate religion and can use electric and drive cars.

Again, it depends on the local preacher. We have many Old Order Mennonites in our area, who are strictly horse and buggy, no electricity types. Occasionally you see one on the horse and buggy talking on the cell phone. When it comes to their business, they will do what they have to do without having the electrical hookup to the road. It might be a diesel generator, or a diesel driven compressor, hydraulic or line shaft setup. Comes down to each individual preacher.

Steve

[Nate Rogers]

Hello All,
I grew up in Amish country in Northern New York, it all really depends on the elders of the community. They make up almost all the rules, when I was a kid we purchased wood from a local Amish mill. My dad always brought the kids ice cream sandwiches, they LOVED them. As I have gotten to know them over the years they have shared some interesting views with us. One gentleman told us he hates the fact that people will purchase his goods just because a Amish man made them. He used to say I want them to buy my goods because of my craftsmanship, not because I drive a horse. He took great pride in his work, and it was pretty good from what I remember. I always admired the way they live, a very simple life, none of the headaches of the modern world. The thing is, it is just like any group of people that you view as "different", they are usually a lot more like us than we care to admit or realize.

Nate

Nate

[thomas prevost]

Tyler, As for pictures, the answer would be no, unless I found a time when no one was around. The mill is busy during the day and they do not allow pictures of themselves.

Apparently from what they have told me, what they are doing is not unique. There are many mills in Ohio that are switching over. There are a few engineering companies that specialize in the conversions for them.

Jake noted during our conversation that they do not wish to be connected to some aspects of the world. but they must be realisitc and provide products at a competive price. They also "enjoy safety". These modern hydraulic machines offer all the safety features we have without the inherrent dangers they had with belt driven machinery.

They do capture the lost heat from the diesels by putting the radiators in the building and using the return air from the cyclone dust collector through the radiators to help with the heating. They use propane as natural gas would be like electricity and they felt the propane would be environmentally better than oil.

The plant design was well thought out.

ultra clean with a massive cyclone dust collecter hooked to each machine, often at multiple locations.

Humor- they have an upside down hat on an unused dust collector vent, noting that a wayward child who do not belong in the mill got sucked in it.

[Michael Gibbons]

Hey everyone, Get this, Someone my wife knows who is not Amish started dating an Amishman who left his wife and children. He became very worldly and really enjoyed the air conditioning that she had at her place. He still works very hard, just like he was taught. I have to give the Amish credit and that is basically that nothing has changed in generations. If only the Shakers would have been able to maintain and grow membership through marriage and procreation, they would probably still be here today, but I guess that is something that made the Shakers, Shakers.

[Phil Clark]

Hello folks. I'm in British Columbia but last year we spent a most delightful week in Lancaster Cty, PA. We were more than impressed by the productivity and creativeness of the Amish and loved the pastoral pace of their life. We did get a kick out of seeing that some were more liberal than others. We kept noticing that young girls were cutting the lawns with the old hand mower and then saw one cutting the lawn with an elctric mower. While there we visited a community north of Lancaster Cty (can't remember the order but it wasn't Amish) and that group died out because they didn't believe in procreation - now that's built in obsolescence! We were terribly saddened when the school house murders took place just a few days after we had left that beautiful area. We were also mightely impressed by the way the Amish community handled that disaster.

[Jon Knauft]

About 20 years ago an Amish family bought my friend's fathers farm. My friends dad was a little shocked because they paid cash for it. I seem to remember at the time it was about $120,000. I can only imagine how much money I would have if I could "live" without 2 cars, electricity, TV, etc.

Jon

[Bruce Benjamin]

I'm not Mennonite but a large percentage of my mother's relatives are, including her sister. As Steve said, how strict they are depends on their individual church I suppose. One of my cousins is a well driller. He has some of the most amazingly sophisticated GPS equipment you can imagine along with plenty of computer power to back it up. But his truck has plain wheels and he and his family have no TV. At the occasional family reunion I attend it's odd to see the little girls running around in their traditional, plain Mennonite dresses and wearing expensive running shoes. I haven't noticed any piercings or tattoos either.;) Those people are so gentle and man can they cook!

My wife went to college in Meadville Pa. and worked at the local McDonalds for a while. The Amish would frequently come through the drive thru in their buggies but the only thing they would ever order was the Fillet O' Fish. She never did figure out their reasoning on that one. :confused:

Bruce



Again, it depends on the local preacher. We have many Old Order Mennonites in our area, who are strictly horse and buggy, no electricity types. Occasionally you see one on the horse and buggy talking on the cell phone. When it comes to their business, they will do what they have to do without having the electrical hookup to the road. It might be a diesel generator, or a diesel driven compressor, hydraulic or line shaft setup. Comes down to each individual preacher.

Steve

[Tyler Howell]

Still very impressed.
I certianly wouldn't want to invade the lives of our Amish brothers with pix. I just think we can learn so much about wood working by seeing there shops.
Thank you for your stories, life experiences and encounters with other skilled craftsmen.
:cool:

[Tom Maple]

I may as well add some perspective from Ohio and the Amish in this area.
The shops I've been in used a diesel engine to drive a compressor and the compressed air powered an air motor. I've seen machines that still have the electric motor still attached with the air motor mounted next to it driving a belt.
There's a large lumber yard in Charm that sells power tools, such as a Porter Cable belt sander, that are air powered. It is probably the nicest lumber yard I have ever seen. It has a 15' wide medallion on the floor in the entry way that is made with various inlaid woods. It even has a restaurant! They employ many Amish and it is interesting to go up to one of the service desks and an Amish man will take your plans and prepare a quote on a computer. Then when he goes home he won't have any electricity. Many of the farms do have gas wells so they use gas mantels for light and use gravity flow gas heating systems.

[David Henderson]

I lived in an Amish community for quite a few years. My Amish neighbor didn't have electricity but he had a power saw he would bring down to my house with his lumber on his wagon and use my electricity to run it to cut his lumber.
One neighbor built houses and had a truck and all the power tools anyone would have but could only use them when working for none Amish. If he worked for his fellow Amish members he used hand tools but he'd set up shop in the basements of houses he was constructing and build cabinets he'd take back to his Amish customers
Also, here, if you had a shop and only worked for none Amish you could use electricity. Also if you rented a house or shop from a none Amish you could use the electricity and have all the modern tools and appliances.
I enjoyed my neighbors. I could write a book about things they did and things they told me. They even tried teaching me their German dialect. I think they had aspirations for my kids to marry into the Amish community.

[Ray Moser]

A book by a professor from the College of Wooster points out that groups have split over such trivia as whether to use buttons or hooks on clothes and many other details of daily life. Some sects pull window curtains to the left while others dictate that they are to be pulled to the right.I have seen farms where there is electric to the barn but not the house (electric milking machines are essential for making a living but electric cook stoves or lights are not). I have seen hay balers with motors being pulled by a team of horses. Go figure why a gas motor on a baler is ok but a tractor is not. If you want to see a lot of Amish, visit Holmes County, Ohio. In spite of what people think about Lancaster County, PA. being the center of Amish life, Ohio has the largest Amish population of any state.

[Tyler Howell]

I understand urban sprall and development are driving many sects out of PA. A number of very wealthy groups are moving into WI (new cheese heads:rolleyes: :D )
We get large groups of Mennonites coming to the ski area I teach at.
It was so interesting to see the ladies and gents in there traditional garb flying down the hills.
Interesting world we live in:)

[Doug Shepard]

When I was a teenager we went camping in the middle of Amish country in Ohio. They used to come through the campground with horse drawn carts every day selling fresh produce, bakery, and dairy stuff. Apparently the Amish dont have any problem with solar power either. Driving past one of their farmhouses one day we spied two young Amish girls sunbathing on the lawn.:D I have a hunch their elders weren't home.

[Jim Becker]

Folks, this is interesting, but getting astray from the original topic about an Amish Mill and almost totally into cultural comparisons with some negativity. Let's not go there, please...

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Alex Shanku]

Folks, this is interesting, but getting astray from the original topic about an Amish Mill and almost totally into cultural comparisons with some negativity. Let's not go there, please...

Jim
SMC Moderator


--Where is this thread getting negative? People are having a nice discussion and the majority of the posts had to do with how the Amish powered their wood working/industrial machinery.

The over-moderation on this board is amazing.

[Bruce Benjamin]

DITTO. Where's the negativity? I thought this was going along very nicely and it was right along the same spirit as the OP. I've seen nothing that could be interpreted as offense or negative. Jim's moderator post was the first negative or OT post I've seen. :confused:

Bruce



--Where is this thread getting negative? People are having a nice discussion and the majority of the posts had to do with how the Amish powered their wood working/industrial machinery.

The over-moderation on this board is amazing.

[David Weaver]

DITTO. Where's the negativity? I thought this was going along very nicely and it was right along the same spirit as the OP. I've seen nothing that could be interpreted as offense or negative. Jim's moderator post was the first negative or OT post I've seen. :confused:

Bruce

It was likely my post, regarding my experience, which I would've intended to do nothing other than reflect that the amish and mennonites I've met are just people, same as us, but who choose a different set of rules (strange for us to think that we don't have rules, and they have more - they just have different rules, and not necessarily more).

I deleted the post - no reason to argue about it.

Suffice it to sum up that the craftsmen I've met are as good as any - electricity or not - and the mills are the same. There is no lack of productivity, or any of this other preconceived stuff that watching too many movies would have you believe.

[D.McDonnel "Mac"]

A couple of years ago I was in Florida during Christmas Vacation where I met and had some interesting conversations with an Amish family that was renting the unit next to ours. He was a woodworker that ran his own Cabinet shop. Indeed they are governed by the local elders rulings so there are a lot of variation from group to group. What we think or picture as Amish are the Old Order Amish. This gentleman was from a less restrictive group, more like the Mennonites. He invited me to come visit his shop sometime as we live about an hour apart. I regret I never took him up on that offer.

Mac

[Brian Elfert]

If they are using an internal combustion engine then why not generate electricity instead of hydraulic?

It seems to me it would a lot cheaper to keep the electric motor than to do the conversion. Maybe their culture doesn't allow electricity even if they don't have wires to bring it in.

Brian Elfert

[thomas prevost]

My original post was discuss some "neat", interesting things done to modify woodworking tools. It was not intended to be a discussion of the Amish church. We should leave it to woodworking in this forum.

[Bruce Benjamin]

Ok, anybody know what construction techniques they use to make the Amish churches and what motivated them to use those techniques? ;)

Bruce

[Lance Norris]

There's a large lumber yard in Charm that sells power tools, such as a Porter Cable belt sander, that are air powered. It is probably the nicest lumber yard I have ever seen. It has a 15' wide medallion on the floor in the entry way that is made with various inlaid woods. It even has a restaurant! They employ many Amish and it is interesting to go up to one of the service desks and an Amish man will take your plans and prepare a quote on a computer.

I also have been amazed at the Amish using computers at Keim Lumber. I guess you have to be competitive, and pad and pencil would be hard to keep track of all the products they carry. I was there last friday and saw one of the service desk men playing a video game on the computer. He stopped when he saw me looking at him and he blushed. They have cut lumber in the yard for me with a PC 18v circular saw, so it would fit in the bed of my truck, and they all use portable radios. I wonder how they charge the batteries? Solar? ;)

[Greg Ladd]

I grew up in Meadville, PA. What a wonderful place to grow up in as a young boy.

Roaming through the woods during the summers, beautiful fall foliage and tons of snow to play in during the winter. We lived just up the hill from Allegheny College. As a matter of fact, I believe I have ridden a Flexible Flyer onto some of the college property more than once after sledding down Limber Road.

Thanks for bringing back some wonderful memories. I wish my kids had gotten the oppportunity to grow up there.

Greg Ladd