new byrd head leaving marks????????????????

[terry sligar]

i just replaced the 4 knife head in my brank spanking new powermatic 209 20-inch planer with a byrd head. everything is running fine but this thing is leaving ridges and very noticable lines on the cherry wood. i had called wmh before i bought the head and they assured me that it would come out glass smooth. i know everyone has a different opinion of glass smooth but this is really bad. i'm sure not happy with the results. has anyone else ever had this problem? i sure could use some help with this one. thanks terry

[robert cohen]

Frank will probably answer but I will ask a few questions.

Did you change the speed gear to allow for the slowest speed?

Are the pressure rollers adjusted correctly?

Did you get the head from Byrd?

When reinstalling the head are you sure it is parallel to the bed?

I am interested as I just ordered a PM209HH.

[Rob Will]

Unfortunately, the Byrd heads always leave shallow "scallops" in the work. I find it especially noticeable in cherry. Sanding will usually remove the scallops left by the Byrd head on my PM 225. Speed does not matter. It does this at any feed rate. I'm beginning to see why Nothfield and Newman Whitney get the big bucks for real spiral carbide heads.

Rob

[Alan Schaffter]

Beg to differ. Byrd Shelix heads do not "always leave shallow scallops." It is possible with the Grizzly copy with square inserts with edges parallel to the journal axis, but not likely with a properly made and installed Byrd. If the inserts were installed with dust underneath them or the inserts are not tightened down scallops can occur. There was a bad batch of Shelix heads a few years back but I haven't heard of any recently. Have you called Byrd?

My Byrd head leaves a very smooth surface, smoother than my old standard blade journal, on oak, cherry, beech, maple, Ipe (the only woods I've run through my planer lately.)

[Todd Solomon]

All Byrd heads leave longitudinal ridges, as Byrd confirmed prior to my purchase. On my 22" Oliver, the ridges are more pronounced than straight knived cutterheads produce, but straight knives also leave feint ridges that run transverse to the planing direction. The ridges don't bother me though, because you must smooth any planed surface prior to finish, any way (sand, hand-plane or scrape). Otherwise, you'll see the ridges with the finish. The ridges are caused by the fact that each individual carbide insert has a large radius. This, in addition to the skewed inserts, is one of the reasons that tearout is reduced.

Todd


i just replaced the 4 knife head in my brank spanking new powermatic 209 20-inch planer with a byrd head. everything is running fine but this thing is leaving ridges and very noticable lines on the cherry wood. i had called wmh before i bought the head and they assured me that it would come out glass smooth. i know everyone has a different opinion of glass smooth but this is really bad. i'm sure not happy with the results. has anyone else ever had this problem? i sure could use some help with this one. thanks terry

[Rob Will]

Beg to differ. Byrd Shelix heads do not "always leave shallow scallops." It is possible with the Grizzly copy with square inserts with edges parallel to the journal axis, but not likely with a properly made and installed Byrd. If the inserts were installed with dust underneath them or the inserts are not tightened down scallops can occur. There was a bad batch of Shelix heads a few years back but I haven't heard of any recently. Have you called Byrd?

My Byrd head leaves a very smooth surface, smoother than my old standard blade journal, on oak, cherry, beech, maple, Ipe (the only woods I've run through my planer lately.)

Alan,
If you run a cherry board and hold it up to the light, can you see the scallops? I have a genuine Shelix. In fact, I have been to the Byrd factory here in Ky. The demo machine that they have at the factory also leaves the scallops. If you look closely at the individual cutters on a Byrd head you can see a slight radius (8" radius, I think). The edge of each cutter is not flat, that is how they can mount them on a spiral and not gouge with the corners. The drawback to this method is that the slightly rounded edges leave a scallop. I'm interested in how other Byrd owners cope with this.
Rob

[J.R. Rutter]

IIRC, it is a 4" radius on the Byrd inserts.

Who uses a planer for a finished surface though?

I love the Shelix heads that I use every day. They have saved hundreds of board feet of lumber that would have been scrap due to tearout since they were put into service. Not to mention the reduction in noise.

I remember being disappointed by the scallops when I first used mine, but that was just because I expected a miracle...

[Joe Jensen]

I have a Byrd head and it does leave slight scallops. With my old 3 knife Powermatic Model 100 cutterhead I had scallops the other way every 1/8". With the straight knife cutterhead I had scallops and tearout. With the Byrd I have scallops and no tearout. I always sand before finishing anyway to it doesn't matter. I don't think I would have to start any lower than 120 grit orbital, probably higher so these scallops are pretty insignificant...joe

[jim gossage]

i have a byrd on my 8" jointerand it leaves very subtle ridges, but no tearout and no need to pay attention to direction of grain when jointing. they sand out easily with a few passes of 120 or 180 grit. for face or egde glue-ups, sanding is not necessary.

[Rob Will]

Here's an interesting comparison.

If the individual teeth on my Byrd head are 1/2" wide, the scallops left by the teeth are about that wide (1/2")(minus some tooth overlap)

On a straight blade planer.......lets say it is a 4-knife head spinning at 3000 rpm. That's 12,000 cuts per minute. If the feed rate is 30 fpm(360 inches), then the width of the tranverse scallops is 360" / 12,000 or about 3/100".

So yes, the scallops are a lot more pronounced after the Byrd head. Having said that, I still like mine because of reduced tearout and low noise, it's just a real pain if you use a high gloss finish and you don't get those scallops completely removed.

Rob

[Frank Snyder]

Terry - Maybe I need to have my glasses checked, but honestly, I don't see or feel any "scallops" or "ridges" on the wood I send through my Byrd head. It really is silky smooth. I was getting tearout on figured Birch at the faster feed rates, but once I slowed it down to 16fpm, this problem went away. If I were you, I would notify Byrd (or WMH in your case) and explain your problem to them. They may either send you out another head or have some suggestions for you to try.

If these "scallops" are normal, and I'm not getting them, then perhaps I have a lemon head. Alan, too... ;)

[Dan Larson]

I've found that the scalloping from a Byrd head is much more noticeable with really dense woods like wenge and ebony. With something like walnut, I need to inspect very carefully under bright light at on oblique angle to see the scalloping.

Dan

[Tom Cowie]

IIRC, it is a 4" radius on the Byrd inserts.

Who uses a planer for a finished surface though?

I love the Shelix heads that I use every day. They have saved hundreds of board feet of lumber that would have been scrap due to tearout since they were put into service. Not to mention the reduction in noise.

I remember being disappointed by the scallops when I first used mine, but that was just because I expected a miracle...


I agree with you J R. Who uses a planer for a finished surface ,

The finish that comes out of my 15HH is very acceptable .

I would like to see some pics of this scallop problem if anyone has some.

Tom

[Todd Solomon]

I've found that the scalloping from a Byrd head is much more noticeable with really dense woods like wenge and ebony. With something like walnut, I need to inspect very carefully under bright light at on oblique angle to see the scalloping.

Dan

That's interesting, Dan. I'm suspecting from the range of replies here, that there are differences from Byrd head to head. When I plane walnut as in your example, I see the ridges as very pronounced, and from across the room. Again, I'm not complaining, because they sand right out quickly and the reduction in tearout is a benefit. But the surface finish I get, isn't the same as what your machine yields.

Todd

[J.R. Rutter]

Here is a pic that someone posted recently. He used extreme raking light to make them show up, and measured them at something like 0.001" deep. Enough to feel, easy to sand out.

http://www.woodweb.com/images_forums_public/test/70326195826.jpg

[jim gossage]

Here is a pic that someone posted recently. He used extreme raking light to make them show up, and measured them at something like 0.001" deep. Enough to feel, easy to sand out.

http://www.woodweb.com/images_forums_public/test/70326195826.jpg

wow! i don't have anything like that. mine are barely visible and not as regular. i would say that person has a bad head.

[Rob Will]

Here is a pic that someone posted recently. He used extreme raking light to make them show up, and measured them at something like 0.001" deep. Enough to feel, easy to sand out.

http://www.woodweb.com/images_forums_public/test/70326195826.jpg

That is what mine looks like.
It is hard to tell if the scallops left by my Byrd head are as deep as those shown in the picture.

This has me thinking; don't all rotating heads, including the Byrd, leave the same ridges in the transverse direction?

Does that mean we have ridges in both directions with the Byrd but we only notice the much bigger longitudinal ridges?

[Bart Leetch]

I hope you guys get this straightened out.

But I just couldn't help but see a funny in this somewhere.

"Its joke son byrd marks we're leaving byrd marks. No not like that son like this splat splat splat."
Fog Horn Leg Horn. Cartoon rooster.

[Alan Schaffter]

That is what mine looks like.
It is hard to tell if the scallops left by my Byrd head are as deep as those shown in the picture.

This has me thinking; don't all rotating heads, including the Byrd, leave the same ridges in the transverse direction?

Does that mean we have ridges in both directions with the Byrd but we only notice the much bigger longitudinal ridges?

EVERY rotating head that uses straight blades, spriral straight blades, and all the the segmented blades (Shelix, Griz, etc.), except ones that rotates in the same plane as the stock- like the old Delta Uniplane, by geometry, will leave some amount of scalloping mark- spacing and depth of the scallops are determined by the cutter RPM and feed rate. For minimum scallops, you want a combination of high cutter RPM and low feed rate. Taking too big of a bite and letting the cutter bog down reduces one of these speeds. Moisture content and resiliency of the wood will also have some, but minimal effect, and then only usually with dull cutters- which will also result in tearout.

I assume the boad in the pic posted by J.R was run through the planer top-bottom and that the ridges are transverse. With the staggered inserts I can't imagine the Byrd head making ridges parallel to the feed direction. If I were getting scallops as big as those in J.R.'s picture above I'd examine what I was doing WRONG and if the planer is operating ok then send the head back. I would verify feed rate- not sure what the range is but I think most of the 15" Chiwanese planer clones usually run about 16 or 32 fpm. Not sure of cutter head RPM.

[Joe Jensen]

Here is a pic that someone posted recently. He used extreme raking light to make them show up, and measured them at something like 0.001" deep. Enough to feel, easy to sand out.

http://www.woodweb.com/images_forums_public/test/70326195826.jpg
I've never seen anything like that with my planer. On some woods there is nothing to be seen at all. With others, I can see the pattern shown in that picture but nothing that pronounced...joe

[J.R. Rutter]

I assume the boad in the pic posted by J.R was run through the planer top-bottom and that the ridges are transverse. With the staggered inserts I can't imagine the Byrd head making ridges parallel to the feed direction. If I were getting scallops as big as those in J.R.'s picture above I'd examine what I was doing WRONG and if the planer is operating ok then send the head back. I would verify feed rate- not sure what the range is but I think most of the 15" Chiwanese planer clones usually run about 16 or 32 fpm. Not sure of cutter head RPM.

No - this board was apparently run on a DJ-20 and the ridges run in the same direction as the feed. Think of a nick in the blade rather than transverse scallops due to rotating cutterhead. It is there regardless of feed rate. The shelix leaves the marks you are talking about as well, but they are miniscule. Cleaning the insert seats and the inserts themselves helps get everything "set" properly and minimizes the longitudinal scallops. The poster of that pic measured difference between peaks and valleys at just .001" . . .

[Russ Massery]

I have a Byrd head on my G0490.(DJ-20 clone). After reading this thread I did some experimenting this afternoon. I found that the scallops are more pronounced under light cuts less then a 1/32". mostly on maple and cherry. Almost indistinguishable on oak or a 1/32" or more on maple and cherry. like J.R. had said there about .001 deep and sand out easily. I wish I had this head when I was making my kitchen cabinets. As most of you know how bad maple likes to tare out. I have yet to see any since installing this head.

[Alan Schaffter]

J.R., so the the ridges are parallel to the direction of feed and not transverse? That is a strange one!!! And from a Shelix which has staggered, overlapping inserts?!? On a DJ-20. The geometry just doesn't work for that kind of pattern. Something is not right here. It has to be a bad journal, inserts, or something. Oh well, I guess I'll have to find out for myself when I put a Shelix on my DJ-20, once the piggy bank is full again- Brian at Holbren has a deal going over on WoodNet.

[Dan Forman]

My take on this mystery:

I seem to remember someone saying that the faces on the carbide inserts have a tiny bit of camber on each cutting edge. That would account for the parallel groves in the direction of feed. The transverse scallops that one might see from a standerd 3 knife cutter head are less apparent on the Byrd because (I think) there are more than three rows of carbide inserts doing the cutting, so that the scallops would be even closer together than they would on a blade style cutter head, and thus less visible.

Dan

[Rob Will]

My Byrd head has 9 rows of cutters. The cutters are arranged in groups of 3 staggered rows then the whole pattern repeats. At any one point, 3 cutters are all that strike the wood. So in the end, it is still a 3-knife arrangement.

As far as the scallops go, that is all part of the design. With the indivdual cutters mounted on a spiral, they have to be manufactured with a slight curve to the cutting edge. If the cutters were flat, the corners would dig in and leave serious gouges in the surface.

[Alan Schaffter]

My Byrd head has 9 rows of cutters. The cutters are arranged in groups of 3 staggered rows then the whole pattern repeats. At any one point, 3 cutters are all that strike the wood. So in the end, it is still a 3-knife arrangement.

As far as the scallops go, that is all part of the design. With the indivdual cutters mounted on a spiral, they have to be manufactured with a slight curve to the cutting edge. If the cutters were flat, the corners would dig in and leave serious gouges in the surface.

You are right about the curvature- Since the insert cutting edges are on a slight angle, the curvature is supposed to make it so all points along the cutting edge of each insert are the same distance from the center of rotation of the journal. If Shelix journals for different brands of planers and jointers are all the same diameter then the inserts can also be all the same- if different machines use different diameter journals then the inserts must be different also- different curvature. If the recess in the journal for the inserts are all the same then it must be possible to install the wrong inserts. Could this be a source of some of the problems people are having? Inquiring minds what to know.:)

Now as far as ridges parallel to the feed direction, aren't your cutters staggered so that the cuts from one insert to the next (in the next spiral row) overlap? Mine are. Wouldn't that overlap remove that type of ridge?

[J.R. Rutter]

Good point Alan. The radius difference must be the main reason for different performance, since as far as I know, all inserts are the same 4" radius. Maybe that is why my larger diameter heads work better than the 3" head from my old planer.

One would think that there would not be parallel ridges spaced one cutter width apart, but all of my heads do exactly that. But they are soooo shallow. I've read user reports that face gluing is not adversely affected.

[J.R. Rutter]

I took a closer look today at the marks left by the shelix heads in my jointer and planer. The jointer is 4" diameter, and leaves much shallower scallops than the 3" head in my old planer. There are parallel ridges, but I doubt if they are even .001" - just enough to feel.

I have a hard time even feeling the ridges left by the planer head, which looks to be close to 5" diameter. What ridges there are seem to be spaced 1/2 tooth width apart, so this head seems pretty optimal. Feeding @ 25 FPM or so does leave typical transverse marks, but they are distributed somewhat randomly rather than straight scross the whole board.

I guess Byrd started making tooling for industrial grade WW equipment, and optimized the tooth radius for the larger diameter journals involved.