Should I upgrade the house service

[Andrew Williams]

My shop is in the basement, and there are as yet no plans for making an outbuilding, so all machinery will be on the main load center. The existing one is 100 amp service. In the course of calling an electrician about running a new line for the eventual tablesaw replacement that I have yet to buy, I mentioned that I wanted a 5hp saw. He strongly recommended that I upgrade the service to 200 amps. I can see the point, especially since I do have a 30 amp dryer and possibly may have a 20 amp dust collector at some time in the future. The ballpark figure he gave for the service upgrade seemed fair.

So my choices are this:

1. Upgrade to 200 amps, run the line for 30, and buy the 5hp saw, at the greatest expense

2. Do not upgrade to 200 amps, run the line for 20, and buy the 3hp saw, least expense.

3. Find an electrician who will run the 30 amp line without upgrading the service and buy the 5 hp saw. (This seems a bit unsafe).

What would you do if it were your money?

[Rob Wright]

Andrew,

I would take option 4
upgrade to the 200 amp and buy the 3hp SS -

I know that we all like more power - but I have never thought that I needed more than the 3hp cabinet saw with a good sharp blade. JMHO :o

[Tim Lynch]

Hopefully an electrician will give you guidance here (like code reqts), but...

It seems to me that the only downside of option 3 is that you might have everything running and trip your 100A main breaker. If that does end up happening, you could arrange for the 200A upgrade then. But if it never happens, then I don't think you are harming anything.

[Mike Henderson]

I'd put in a sub-box in the basement just so that it's easier to add additonal circuits in the future. The question of whether to upgrade the service box to 200 amps depends upon how much power you draw in the rest of the house. I would probably not do the upgrade right now - you can always do it later. The only risk you run is that you'll trip the main 100 amp breaker sometime and lose all power to your house. If you do, then upgrade to 200 amps.

The main breaker is not the sum of all the circuit breakers in the box - Everything is not drawing the max power at one time.

But there may be some code requirements that will require upgrading to 200 amps if you put in another large breaker in the box - Im not a code expert but there are some people who know code well on this forum.

Mike

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, as an Electrical Technologist, I can offer the following;

1) a 3HP saw motor will be more than adequate.

2) a 2hp cyclone is aproximately 10 or 11 amperes, and that will be continuous

3) The tablesaw will draw aproximately 12 to 14 amperes maximum, more like 6 typical use.

4) your dryer will use a maximum of 24 amperes, this is consider a continuous or thermostatically controlled load by code.

So to add the above up, 49 amperes max, 43 typical, if you are running the dryer.

So far, so good, however an electric range can add 40 amperes to the above, which results in 83 amperes.

80 amperes is the maximum permissible continuous load on a 100 ampere circuit, so you are at capacity, without any other lighting or items such as computers, television etc.

That said, I have a gas clothes dryer and haven't upgraded my service from 100 amperes because I'm not exceeding the 80% factor.

If you can remember not to run the dryer when you are using the shop, or don't run the range when using the shop, you'll never have a problem.

I suggest that you talk to your local inspector, if he won't allow the installation of the new circuits with the existing service, you have no choice except to upgrade. The elctrician will be required by code to have the work inspected, so talking to the inspector first, is always a good idea.

Since I don't know how large your house is, what demand factors are required in your area, or what your energy usage are, I would err on the side of caution and upgrade.

regards, Rod.

[Nancy Laird]

Andrew, I'm no electrician, but upgrade to 200 amp service is a no-brainer. As you add more and more to your basement shop - think a jointer, planer, lights, etc. - you will be using more and more amperage, and just think of the things in the house that draw amps - stove, refrigerator, freezer, dishwasher, lights, computer(s), television (s), radio(s). Yes, these are small draws, but they add up. If you go to 200-amp service, your wife won't be complaining about the lights in the kitchen dimming when you fire up the DC and the saw at the same time. AMHIKT!!

Nancy

[Scott Loven]

Along with the above, check with your power company/electrician to see what it it might cost to bring 200 amp service to your house. I have 300 feet of underground wire to my Transformer and another 70 to the house. That wire is expensive and would most likely need to be replaced. Also find the cost to rewire the old and new box.
Scott

[Jim O'Dell]

Like many of the others, I'm not an electrician. But I've got a question: Is your electrical service entrance and breaker box in the basement now? If so, it might be cheaper to add another 100 amp box, and change out the meter to what I believe they call a dual service unit, so that separate main lines can feed each box. That way you don't have to disrupt the house as long, and the shop is on it's own box that you could turn off and lock up for safety if kids are in the equation. Jim.

[Steve Kohn]

When I added on my shop I faced the same problem. With my previous shop (garage) I would take out the lights in part of the house when I ran my saw with the dryer running.

I upgraded to 200 amps and then had the electrician run a 100A subpanel into the shop. Now if I do something stupid in the shop, I don't take down any part of the house. My wife is much appreciative of that fact.

[Kyle Kraft]

Scott,

Here in West MI the electrical utility sizes all the wire up to the line side of the meter (or the aerial drop if you have overhead service) for 200A. Even so, the utility should bear any cost involved up to the weatherhead or line side of the meter socket.

[Don Bullock]

Andrew,

I would take option 4
upgrade to the 200 amp and buy the 3hp SS -

I know that we all like more power - but I have never thought that I needed more than the 3hp cabinet saw with a good sharp blade. JMHO :o

Rob has a point. I only opted for the 5hp because my wife made it clear that I should get the best saw possible if I was spending that much money. I did it to make her happy.;) :D

[Rich Torino]

Hey Don,
could you have your wife talk to my wife??????"

[Scott Loven]

Scott,

Here in West MI the electrical utility sizes all the wire up to the line side of the meter (or the aerial drop if you have overhead service) for 200A. Even so, the utility should bear any cost involved up to the weatherhead or line side of the meter socket.
When we were building our house 10 years ago the electric company wanted to run 100 service to our house. I had to talk them into two hundred amp service. I also had to pay $970 extra to get underground service to the house. They would have put poles and overhead wire in for no cost.
All I am saying is it cant hurt to ask.
Scott

[Jim Becker]

Andrew, I'm no electrician, but upgrade to 200 amp service is a no-brainer.

Ditto...............

[Randy Kramer]

It's only money.......:D If it were me, and it was a few weeks ago, I would go 200 amp main and then run a sub to the basement. I did this with my garage and figure it will be enough regardless of what I do in the future. That way, you will have enough power to run whatever you need. Figure 2k for the upgrade though(depends on your house, of course...mine is OLD. Maybe yours will be much less), unless you know someone. Parts and pieces alone on my project were over 600.00. 2/0 copper isn't cheap. The sub you should be able to do yourself. #2(main)/#6(grounnd) from 100 amp breaker down to sub ect, ect. I'm no electrician and your codes are likely different, so check with inspector as was initially advised. I NEEDED to do this in order to properly supply 220 to the house and garage though. My supply panel was VINTAGE and unusable for the applications I required. If your currrent service supports 100, that would be the best avenue. I think someone said that already........

[Don Bullock]

Hey Don,
could you have your wife talk to my wife??????"

Rich, I'm afraid you'll have to fight your own domestic battles. You must remember that I'm retiring next year and have decided to get back into woodworking as something to do in retirement.

I had my wife help me cut some wood recently. She couldn't belive the girations I had to go through to get my Cman fence aligned to make a simple cut. A few days later I showed her some of the videos on the SawStopwebsite. After seeing those, she was sold. Getting the Incra added to the order was rather easy because it would be a lot easier to use and more accurate than what I had. It might work for you too.

Andrew, I'm sorrry we hijacked your thread. I do agree with the others that upgrading to the 200 amp. feed would be a good idea if you can swing that. Who pays, you or the utility company, will only be determined by their policies and those of your local PUC. Having to make sure that the dryer and/or stove aren't being used when you're using the saw would be a pain.

[Von Bickley]

Andrew,

If you are planning on staying in the house for any extended time, I would up-grade to a 200 amp service and put a sub-panel in the basement for the shop equipment. I worked many years as an electrician and that is what I would do....;)

[Greg Peterson]

Andrew,
I recently upgraded from 100 amp to 200 amp. Did most of the work myself, but had an experienced electrician on a couple parts of the project.

I don't need 200 amps, especially since I have pulled out the electric dryer and converted to gas. But I have already added 11 circuits to the panel, and I haven't even wired in any 240v circuits yet! Those will be going into a separate load center though.

One thing to keep in mind. If your working on a cement floor, you want your outlets to be GFCI protected. this can be accomplished with either a GFCI breaker for each outlet circuit, or putting a GFCI outlet the first outlet in the circuit. All subsequent outlets downstream of the GFCI will give you GFCI protection. Cheap piece of mind.


Go for the upgrade. Once you have the additional capacity you will tap into it. And future owners of the home will appreciate it too!

[Ryan Myers]

As an electrician, I too would suggest the upgrade as you will appreciate it later and its good for resale. 100 amp service wil get you buy especially if your major appliances are non-electric. You have to consider Range, Dryer, A/C, and Water Heater. Of course if you had all of those than 100 amp wouldn't be even near big enough. I install 200 amp as the minimum anymore. Some houses these days are even pushing into the 400 amp range.

As a previous poster mentioned, you could install a combo meter socket/disconnect with a 200 main, then install (2) 100 amp breakers. One to feed existing panel and second breaker to supply a new panel in shop. But you will still have to change out the wiring from the meter to the old panel to upgrade to a 4-wire feed. Then all your ground wires will have to be isolated to a seperate ground bar within the existing panel.

All in all, probably better to upgrade entire service to 200 amp and then you gain the extra spaces in the panel. All utility companies are different, but some will provide everything from the pole to the house free of charge. While others will charge $20 a foot to trench (from house to pole) and provide wire. Others let you trench and they provide wire free of charge. So you need to check and see what they will give you.

I know everyones needs and wants are different, but as the owner of a 3 HP saw I can testify that it will take care of most hobbiest woodworking needs.

[Andrew Williams]

Wow, lots of responses :)

Hrm, where do I start...

Yes the service entrance is in the basement and the main load center is there.
I have an electric dryer (30A), european electric washer with 20A heating coil (dryer and washer never get used at the same time, only one plug), well pump, fridge, oil boiler circulating pump, and the usual other stuff, lights etc..., no A/C
the range and water heater are propane.

I'd say that I could probably squeak by with the 3Hp saw, the 5Hp would be a lock for needing the service upgrade. The ballpark on the service upgrade is maybe less than 2k, but not that much less.

I am at least going to get a true estimate of the upgrade. the only downside of the upgrade is the cost obviously. I am also considering just getting a 10GA line put in, and protected for 20A for the time being, upgradeable if necessary. The only issue there being cost.

[Thane Duncan]

Ditto on the upgrade. Would not hesitate. I have a basement shop in an addition. Run 12 to the outlets and make each one up to two outlets on their own circuit. Run 10 gauge to all your 220 outlets and put them each on 20 amp breakers at present, that way you can upgrade to a 30 amp circuit as it sounds like the WAF (wife acceptance factor) may not limit you much. I wish I had run one circuit with 8 gauge for a 6hp motor. :D I ran 400 amp to house and put in an S2 meter box outside then split inside to the old panel and the new panel. Then there is no dimming when air conditioner, 5hp saw and another 5hp tool are on at the same time. Cant't have enough juice and in the future is always a selling point if a creeker wants to buy your house, after all, the labor difference is the cost, the material is cheap relative to the other things we covet.
Good Luck:)

TD

[Jim Thiel]

I would upgrade, but the cost should come from your wife's account, not the tool account. It's is afterall, so she can get the laundry done faster so she has more free time:D .


Jim

[Tom Cowie]

Hi Andrew,

As many have already said upgrading and adding a sub panel will give you the most options and the least amount of headaches .

If you have an air compressor or a larger heat pump you might notice the lights dimming or blinking when they start. this will also happen with your larger woodworking equipment if the service is undersized (very annoying)

Though it isn't much of a problem if the lights dim or blink once in awhile it may become unbearable for the rest of the family while "DAD" is woodworking.

I know this because I am a Lineman for the power company and I get many calls for this same reason.

Tom :)