Please Evaluate Basement Trimwork

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Would you accept this trim in your home knowing that caulking/painting still needed to be done? Ignore the nail holes. I know they need to be filled.

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[Keith Beck]

I'm guessing that since you're asking, this is something you paid for?

Admittedly, caulk will hide a lot, but I personally think it's a subpar job, especially if you paid somebody to do it. I don't do trim for a living, but I know I could do a much better job than that.

Some of those gaps are just ridiculously large. And what's with the baseboard? Is that a 45 degree cut joining the two pieces? Kinda hard to tell from the picture. If it were me, I'd be raising a fit.

Just my .02...

Keith

[Rob Bodenschatz]

I'm guessing that since you're asking, this is something you paid for?


Not yet I didn't.

[Rob Wright]

Rob,

That looks like the job the trim carpenter did in my house last year. Every night I would stop out to my house and leave "unacceptable" post it notes on everything that I felt was poor quality. He probably ripped out half the door and windows trim in the entire house before the general finally kicked him off.

I know that the job or skill of a good trim carpenter is knowing how to hide the flaws, but just depending on the painter to fix those is unacceptable. The base molding should have been coped in the corner. The butt joints on the base should have been beveled and glued to each other.The miters on the doors should have a slight back bevel on them to allow the joint to fit tight, and a nail or trim screw driven at an angle to pull the joint tight.

If you did this yourself - I apologize for being critical of your work :o

[frank shic]

gaps are WAY too large and remind me of my earlier attempts at trim work but in all honesty, caulk and paint will hide the mistakes from most people although i don't think anything will fix that terrible butt joint between the baseboards.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

If you did this yourself - I apologize for being critical of your work :o

No need to apologize, even if I did do it. Honesty is always welcome. I didn't do it, though. If I did, I certainly wouldn't be showing it off.


I guess the question I'm getting at is: Should I accept this work? I'm paying for it. Those pictures are just a representative sample of the whole project. Every joint looks like the ones pictured. I'm responsible for caulking and painting.

Am I being hyper-critical here?

[Tim Malyszko]

I would have to agree that this is sub-par work and would not pay for any of it.


The window sill needs to be refitted and scribed to match the wall contour.
The baseboard joints need to be beveled and joined together before installing.
The corner joint should be coped to achieve a tight, clean fit.
The mitering around the doors are too loose and will probably get worse as the wood expands/contracts.While I am an engineer and not a finish carpenter, I've been installing trim since I was 16 for friends and family and know a thing or two about proper installation and this sucks.

I appologize if this is your work.

[Tim Lynch]

Still not clear if this is your house... I wouldn't pay for it if it is.

If it's someone else's, and you are hired to putty and paint this, it seems to me that not only has the poor carpentry increased your work, it is likely to crack and gap more/sooner as well, for which you might be blamed or called back.

[Rob Wright]

Rob- you are not being hypercritical. Just think of what these joints would look like if they were in stained wood - you WOULD NOT ACCEPT THEM - so why should you accept them in painted trim. Like I previously posted, I made my contractor fix all of the joints that I felt did not meet a standard of practice for carpenters. Meaning - scribe the walls, coped joints, beveled butt joints, and tight corners that some what resemble a 90 deg joint.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Just to clear up some details.

No, I didn't do it. Yes, this is my house.

I am paying a contractor to finish my basement. This is part of the whole project. The trim is not priced separately.

I am responsible for caulking and painting.

I still owe the contractor a sizable amount for the job.

[Mark Engel]

The fact that you are asking if it is acceptable tells me that you think it is not. Personally, I would not accept work like that if I was paying a professional to do it.

Since the work was done by someone working for the contractor, I would start with the contractor. Show him all the trim work that you are not happy with and find out his thoughts. He may just agree with you and have it taken care of. If not, you can decide the next steps in getting the work fixed.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

The fact that you are asking if it is acceptable tells me that you think it is not.


Yeah, but I look at things very critically. Want to make sure I'm not going overboard here. After reading the replies here and other places, I don't think I am.


Since the work was done by someone working for the contractor, I would start with the contractor. Show him all the trim work that you are not happy with and find out his thoughts. He may just agree with you and have it taken care of. If not, you can decide the next steps in getting the work fixed.

That is the plan. The contractor is coming out to look at the work today.

[dan moran]

#1 isnt the worst-it can be filled with caulk or half dry painters putty and made to look OK -but sculpting that crap to match the profile takes more time than it takes to make a proper cut..

the inside corners are horrible and you probably should have made it clear that cope joints are to be expected in inside corners.. as some people have no idea what that is or opt to try miters knowing that theyre going to be caulked.. again, they could be sculpted with caulk, but that would take more time and the filler material would probably fall out in 5 years or so..

the scarf joint is no good at all... field joints have to be pretty close to perfect to maintain the illusion of a single stick of moulding over the length of the wall. oftentimes people dont take the care required to make it so due to only knowing the how of the operation without understanding the why..

the kneewall cap isnt so bad, but it could be better,,, shoe moulding would cover the gap, but a better job of scribing the wall could have been done had more care been taken..

with all that being said, i echo the sentiment of a previous poster, if its your own work; dont take it so hard, we never stop learning how to do this stuff....

if you are paying someone to do this and you told the guy to install trim with an expectation of it being done the way you want without explaining your idea of quality work; well, maybe the trimmer thinks what he did is quality work..

caveat emptor, and the man with the gold makes the rules (preferrably before the gold is given)

good luck with that
-dan

[Jamie Buxton]

Good lord, this is painted trim in a basement. It is not fine furniture. Caulk the cracks, fill the nail holes, and paint it. After you get a couple coats of latex paint on it, it'll look fine.

[dan moran]

Good lord, this is painted trim in a basement. It is not fine furniture. Caulk the cracks, fill the nail holes, and paint it. After you get a couple coats of latex paint on it, it'll look fine.


thats probably what the contractor was saying to the cheap labor that installed that abortion...

[Peter Elliott]

I will throw in a few. Since I do get paid to do this kind of work, my boss would have doc my pay for the day. No I wouldn't accpet it but I'm sitting at my desk, with a cup of coffee. (Monday Morn Quarterback).

Yes, like most said, it can be saved by a VERY good painter.

Point out few things, the case work around the door is nailed improper. Did not hit the inside bead where it will most likely cup. I suspect the surface of the door jam not flush with the drywall either.

The inside corners have a large gap, lot's of putty. A cope method is better off used. Most wall corners are not 90 and it takes a lot of time to adjust the miter for an odd corner.

The seat or shelf is cut short - nothing more than that.

I can admit, earlier in my years, I have made these mistakes and learned from others how to improve. Luckly, the mistakes then were on my own house and I ripped it off later on.

Trim work is not easy, don't let anyone fool you. Lot of forward thinking. Never leave it for the painters to fix, unless your the painter;)

[David G Baker]

I think the work was hurried and very sloppy. Visualize what it would look like if it was stained hardwood trim. Latex caulk will do wonders when you are doing your own work, your skill level is not up to par and the work will be covered with paint.
If your home is an older home there are many areas that need a skilled worker to do final trim work due to age and movement.
If the contractor subbed the job out he needs to replace the sub and re do the work, in my opinion. If this area is as bad as it looks, what else is bad that you can't see and maybe not safe.

[glenn bradley]

"Every joint looks like the ones pictured. I'm responsible for caulking and painting."

I began posting three times and had to remove them because I couldn't say much positive. Let me have one last try . . .

In a nutshell I would not expect to pay for that level of skill / quality or the labor required to remove the material so that the next guy can come do it right. JMHO.

[Don Bullock]

I agree with David. The squareness of the house may acount for some of the problems. That being said, my joints, even using my old 1979 Craftsman table saw for my miters, never looked this bad. Sure they could be covered with calk and paint, but this is work that someone is being paid to do. I'd suggest that you reject the work, or at least pay less for it because the painter will most likely charge more.

[Peter Lyon]

Personally, I don't think what is represented in the pictures is all that bad. I would call it about average for what passes as a mdf, paint grade interior trim job these days.

As a painter, I know can fill and paint all of those gaps to the point at which no one would ever know that they were there.

At least in the corners, I suspect that the main culprit are the sheetrockers who applied such a thick, uneven coat of mud that anything short of coping would result in open joints. It's also my guess that the job was bid on miter joints, not cope cutting.

[Ken Belisle]

I absolutely would NOT accept that trim as it is. He would either replace it or I would be detucting from the amount I owed him. Since you are the one who is responsible for caulking/painting, you are the one who has to make up for his errors. I would not pay him for that quality of work.

Just my opinion.............

[Daryl Brayman]

Good lord, this is painted trim in a basement. It is not fine furniture. Caulk the cracks, fill the nail holes, and paint it. After you get a couple coats of latex paint on it, it'll look fine.

It's attitudes like that that allow shappy work to perpetuate. My father nor his would have accepted this type work, why would I?

Regards, Daryl

[John Grossi]

Rob, I am wondering if this so called "carpenter" is a friend of yours, and maybe that is why you are not sure how to handle this. Look at all the nails in picture 2. This guy cannot possibly do trim for a living. I would figure the material cost and subtract it from the total amount. I would also be concerned with the rest of the work and would inspect it closely. I don't care even if it is a basement. That guy obviously has no pride in his work.

[Tim Lynch]

Picture 2... yes, maybe he's a roofer who wanted to work indoors for a while...:D

[Nancy Laird]

Short answer - NO. I don't care if it's in the basement, garage, or living room. This is a sub-par job by a trim "carpenter" who doesn't deserve the title or the money he's getting for the job.

Get with your contractor and make you do it over!!

Nancy

[Ted Miller]

gaps are WAY too large and remind me of my earlier attempts at trim work but in all honesty, caulk and paint will hide the mistakes from most people although i don't think anything will fix that terrible butt joint between the baseboards.

I agree with Frank 100% here and this guy is not a finish guy by any means.

My signature is my work so the way I leave any job its just like I am working on my own house, no slop or corner cutting hiding anything.

Did he tell you that he is new to this business, I would not be happy at all with his work...

[Greg Cole]

I would not accept that, no way shape or form.
Then again, I choose to do almost everything myself. so my "contractor" gets an earful sometimes too. :rolleyes: That or "he" (me) winds up doing it over.:cool:
Either make the contractor deal with the trim guy, or send them packing, fix it yourself and deduct your time & materials & labor from what you owe the contractor.
The details of mitering versus coping should be discussed & agreed upon beforehand. If you don't specify... ya get what ya get.

$0.02.

Greg

[Keith Beck]

Latex caulk will do wonders when you are doing your own work, your skill level is not up to par and the work will be covered with paint.

My first attempt at putting up crown moulding is a testament to that! :)

I'm just glad that I decided to paint the trim in the room I installed it in. The rest of my house has stained moulding (including crown moulding) and after my crown moulding foray, my hat is off to the trim carpenter who did the original work. That guy was in a whole nuther league...

Keith

[Brian Dormer]

I'm an amature when it comes to finish carpentry (I have 2 basements, a bathroom and a kitchen under my belt), but I can and have done better than that. Those inside corners should be coped, not mitered. The joints have significant gaps. You don't show any ouside corners - but I'll bet if they don't have gaps - they will after the first winter. Thats just shoddy work.

The quality of the work is certainly sub-standard and, if it was mine - I would re-do it. (actually, I wouldn't have made many of those mistakes in the first place)

That being said - it COULD be made far less noticable with application of caulk and paint. But just because you are going to caulk and paint isn't an excuse to be sloppy.

My 2 cents - either get a big discount (you shouldn't have to pay for any of the labor on the trim, just the cost of materials) or have them redo it. If it was me - my preference woudl be to have it redone.

When you do work "for hire" - there is an "implied warranty" and a standard of "fitness of merchantability". If you had to take this contractor to small claims court, you would win hands down. Just take lots of pictures so the judge can see. And take copies of this thread.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Thanks for all of your comments. To Jamie's point, yes, it's just a basement. However, for the $30K+ I'm spending on it, I do expect quality work. It looks like most of you agree that it is not.

I'm supposed to meet with the contractor today. He's been pretty responsive to other issues so I'm hoping that this goes well.

[Ben Grunow]

As a carpenter, what concerns me the most (other than the fact that all the cuts are so bad that all of that trim should be ripped out) is the nail locations and hole size. That base is probably 11/16" and the drywall 1/2". Many people believe in using small gage nails (2" brads) for base but I am weary of this especially against a slab where some moisture could be present. I use a 2 1/2" nail for all base and they go into the studs. Scarf joints, made at a 45, are located over studs to allow a nail ot be ddriven through both boards and into the framing. Glue is always used to join the boards at joints as well.

Caulk and paint might hide these errors for a little while but I suspect that some of these base boards will simply fall off after a while (a few years of kids playing in the room...) and then what. I believe it is the carpenters job to install trim in such a way that the painters job is to paint it, not add filler and caulk to extend the boards to touch each other.

As the builder, I would have removed that work as soon as I saw it and replaced it (hopefully) without you having to know. Just to avoid being embarrassed. What a joke.

[Bill Huber]

I moved into a new house a year and a half ago and the builder learned to hate me really quick as I did the same thing as was said above, put sticky note on every bad think I found.

I would not except that work in any way.

[Jason Roehl]

I'm surprised there have been this many responses, and virtually no one has touched on the "value" of what he's getting. How much was the trim carpentry worth. I see stuff far worse than this all the time, just because too many people won't pay for a competent carpenter in this area. In 11 or so years doing this, I've only run across a handful. But I sure have met plenty that are fast and know how to pull the trigger on a trim nailer.

I'm curious to know how much per day people here think a good self-employed carpenter should get? $200? $500?

As a painter, I can pretty much fix any of those issues, save for the butted joint--that's just plain hilljack there. I would however, mention to the carpenter that nail holes are much easier to fill to perfection when they are on the flat of the trim whenever possible, and in the case of colonial casing like that the nails need to be to hit the door jamb.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that's good work by any means. I am saying that one should consider the economics involved as part of the whole picture. If you're paying for a Yugo, you can't expect the quality of a BMW. Remember that when a job is a fixed bid, the faster it is done, the higher the profit.

[Per Swenson]

Good lord, this is painted trim in a basement. It is not fine furniture. Caulk the cracks, fill the nail holes, and paint it. After you get a couple coats of latex paint on it, it'll look fine.


No, no, no ,no.

This is the problem with the trade today.

Can't see it from my house.

Painter's problem. Let the spackler worry about it.

Jamie, I don't care if it was painted trim in the closet under the stairs.

There is no pride in that work. It shows.

If it was my job, or my house, every gosh darn time I looked at it...

It would bring a awful taste to my mouth.

Especially if I paid for it.

But it's only the basement?

Economics has nothing to do with it.

Trust me, it is not harder to do a job right and its a lot cheaper

in the long run for a contractor.

It is called finish carpentry.

If the painter has to fix it it ain't done.

Per

[Dave Fifield]

How did your meeting with the contractor go Rod? We're all dying to know..... :D

[Dick Aubochon]

Just to clear up some details.

No, I didn't do it. Yes, this is my house.

I am paying a contractor to finish my basement. This is part of the whole project. The trim is not priced separately.

I am responsible for caulking and painting.

I still owe the contractor a sizable amount for the job.

Two things:

(A) This type of workmanship should be totaly unacceptable by any customer. Why this fellow would call himself a trim carpenter is a mystery.
(B) This type of workmanship should be totally unacceptable by any skilled workman. I would pull everything out at my own cost and re do it if the finished prouduct I had to put "Lost Sailor Woodworks" on looked like that. I want to have a finished job that I would feel comfortable showing to potential clients, not something like that. I insist that my trim, even if it will painted, should look like a stain and varnish job prior to stain and varnish application.

[Jim Becker]

I would not accept that work. It appears the trim "carpenter" was either unskilled or in a very big hurry. Those joints weren't given any thought at all...cut, slap, nail was all that was done.

[Bob Michaels]

Rob, I'm a retired custom home builder. I have built everything from apartments to move-up housing to ultra high end mega bucks homes. The low end of the tottem pole is apartment construction because cost and low future maintenance is everything, and the tenants couldn't care less usually. I wouldn't accept that *quality* of work no matter what. My approach would be to have a cup of coffee with this guy the very first time I saw this work and explain to him that it is not acceptable; it must be torn out and redone. If that is not acceptable to him, or he just can't do any better, I would explain to him that he's done. Do not let it go until the end of the job and then complain. Nip the problem in the bud right now. I would not pay for that type of workmanship. You will have problems with caulk joints like that for years to come and every time you look at it you will be aggravated, at least I would be.

[Norris Randall]

Reminds me of an old "frame" carpenter I worked with years ago.
His moto was "If it touches, nail it.":D

[Jay Jolliffe]

If I hired someone to do my finish work & that's what it looks like I wouldn't pay a dime for it & he would remove it .

[Bill Wyko]

If a piece of paper fits in the gap it's just that.....a gap. If you're like me....no gaps allowed period! What ever happened to attention to detail?:cool: I'd hand the guy the gap-gauge....a piece of notebook paper. Tell him if it fits in the gap.....It's a gap! Fix it!:mad:

[Howie French]

there is a reason finish carpenters are payed more then regular carpenters,
yet these pictures don't show it.

Howie

[mark page]

I've never trimmed a full house or room, but prefer to do all of my own crown molding myself, unless examples of workmanship can be shown and I feel that I am getting it done at the right quality for less money than what my personal time is worth. But all that I can add is I would not accept this workmanship if I was the person filling in the blank spaces on the check.

Mark

[Dave Malen]

Rob,
That work is unacceptable. Recently I had a bruce floor put in. The contractor left a quarter inch between the first board and the wall. In a cornor he put a damaged piece that couldn't be covered by molding. Later I found a piece of quarter round that wasn't even nailed. The guy worked like hell and I felt sorry for him so I didn't complain at first. But the more I looked at it the more I fumed. Hey I'm paying for this. Finally, I called the company and complained. They said they let him go because of all the complaints about his work. See, I thought I was being picky - being a woodworker. But this guy wasn't skilled enough and you have the same situation. Don't hesitate. Complain!
Dave

[Ken Milhinch]

The correct term for this work is crap.

[Todd Jensen]

Sorry, but this work is homeowner grade hack. :eek:

Picture 1: Poor nail placement, bad miter, and no glue.

Picture 2: Bad splice - again no glue - and machine gun style nailing.

Picture 3: Needs to bring top of miter in - I pry it out and nail to the corner while prying to hold it in place while the glue drys - but again, no glue so that's a moot point. Caulking is to 'seam' the gaps where trim meets the wall, not to fill and hold millwork joints.

Picture 4: What?! sorry, too busy laughing to comment

Picture 5: Bad miter, likely due to lack of glue and subsequent shrinkage of millwork. Or it hasn't shrunk and will only get worse.:p See Picture 3

This is criticism from a stair guy that has been doing finish work for the last 10 years. When I started learning I was on 'slammer' houses where this level of work would still be unacceptable at high speeds.
However, is it acceptable in this situation? I have no idea what your agreement with your contractor is. I've seen a lot of stuff 'fly' over the years that has shocked me, and also a good fill and paint job could hide most of the work in those pictures. Is it fantastic work? Absolutely not, but whether or not it will 'fly' is going to be up to you. Believe it or not as much as I've picked on it, its not THAT bad - unfortunately there are even worse trim guys out there, and while not my first choice, most of your stuff is caulkable and will likely look okay with a few coats of paint on it for a basement job.
Anyways, good luck! One thing to remember is that someone will always be able to pick it apart, but most people don't want to pay a furniture builder or stair builder to install their millwork. Some compromise might be in order. Just my .02 ramble.

[Roger Bell]

I wouldn't accept the argument that "you get what you pay for" and therefore you must align your expectations with the bid price.

The next thing he will tell you is that he can only perform reasonable work at double the price he is charging you. Since that level of workmanship is reserved only for his so-called "high end" projects and customers. And that you should be "satisfied" given the paltry amount you are paying him. After all, you are mere "middle class". And we're not building a piano here now, are we?

The contractor does not dictate to the customer.

You should have a contract. It should say something about a "careful and workmanlike manner".

If he cannot provide reasonable quality work, he needs to sub that portion of the work to someone who can. As an alternative, you could choose to accept the work at a substantially reduced price.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

I met with the contractor yesterday. He was hesitant to admit that it is as bad as I say it is. However, he's going to bring in a more experienced guy to fix things. I should be able to report back later this week.

[Rob Blaustein]

Ultimately you're the customer and he should try to make you happy and satisfied, within reason (and I think you are being reasonable here). And it sounds like he's going to do that. But if he balks or needs more convincing, you could always print out this thread and show it to him. Or post it in a construction/carpenter's forum (doesn't JLC have a forum?)--I would bet you'd get similar responses--and show that to him too.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

...if he balks or needs more convincing, you could always print out this thread and show it to him.

Yup, already did.

[Michael Keating]

Rob,

You shouldn't be too hard on the poor contractor, he is apparently giving jobs to the blind. Good for him.

I would not accept that in my house and you should not either. I did some trim on my dining room a few years ago and I was mad when I had to go get another $40 in moulding. I can not imagine if I was dropping 30 grand.

I am happy with the trim now . . .just mad I messed up the first time. Life is a learning experience.

Mike

[Dan Mages]

I would find this completely unacceptable from a pro.

Although I do admit that as an amateur hack, this looks like some of the work I have done in my house... :(

Dan

[CPeter James]

Was he using the measure once and cut twice system? Not to be too critical, but this really looks like it will be trouble down the road when it opens up and the putty falls out. I have a log house and nothing is flat, square, or plumb andI have done much better than that, it just takes time. Get what you paid for.

[Paul Dombroski]

I would withold that "sizeable amount" until the work is acceptable. I've seen better work from Vo-Tech students. By the way how was the quality of the other work?

[jud dinsmore]

i hate to stray from the crowd but i guessing that the quality of work is directly related to the price paid (probably the low bidder). as a professional home builder/trim carpenter/jack-of-all-trades, i'm still amazed at the unrealistic expectations the general population has with regards to the price/quality relationship for construction projects (you still get what you pay for). mind you, that i'm assuming this is a low-budget remodel since - 1. the work is far from perfect, 2. you're responsible for caulking and painting (a good painter can make bad work look good and vise versa, i would never leave this up to the homeowner). if this isn't the case, and you did some homework on this guy and checked out his references, then take it as a rant from a guy that's heard too many of these. but if you picked the middle or low bid based soley on price, then you should share the blame.

top professional tradespeople are busy. they are pricey (since they're in demand they can afford to be pricey). and they always come with many references. keep this in mind when shopping for your next contractor.

with regards to the pictures, the scarf joint is the only one that caulk and paint won't fix. don't skimp on the caulking. duron makes a 60 yr interior caulk and sherwin williams makes a lifetime guaranteed caulk. both will keep those voids filled a heck of a lot better than cheap caulking.

good luck,

jud

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Jud, you're off base with pretty much your whole post. This basement will end up around $40K, after flooring is put in. After home theater, around $55K. This isn't low budget and they were not the low bidder. I did my homework.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Well, after giving the contractor a piece of my mind on Saturday, we're off to a pretty good start today. He had the new guy come out and get started on the mess. Didn't get to meet him since I was at work but was very pleased with what he's done so far:

63175

63176

Look at the first post in the thread to see what it looked like before. He was only here for a few hours so he hasn't started the baseboards & molding yet but if it's the same quality as the half-wall, I'll be very happy.

[Phil Thien]

top professional tradespeople are busy. they are pricey (since they're in demand they can afford to be pricey). and they always come with many references. keep this in mind when shopping for your next contractor.

While each individual part of this statement is certainly true, I think taken as a whole it can get you into a lot of trouble. Because, pricey tradespeople that are busy and have great references often do poor quality work.

References really mean very little. How can you trust a recomendations from people that also rave about their California Closets cabinets, etc?

[Jim Becker]

Careful, folks...things are starting to get a little testy...

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Phil Thien]

Careful, folks...things are starting to get a little testy...

Jim
SMC Moderator

Who? [Looks around] Moi?

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Who? [Looks around] Moi?

No. Me.

.......

[jud dinsmore]

whoa, fellas. i think i prefaced my post correctly - if my assumptions were incorrect then ignore it. jason said the exact same thing i posted (and no one sent him a nasty pm - jim - nasty pm's are sop?). i'm just trying to dispell this myth that there exists some super craftsman that does perfect work at give-away prices. this person doesn't exist!!! i'm just tired of being grouped with "those da## contractors" and labeled a rip off artist.

rob -
you've misinterpeted my post in several ways so allow me to elaborate. 1. my intent was to be blunt, but not condescending. like i said in my first post - this is not a new story but the same old story. it's not always a bad contractor (and as a contractor i'm kind of tired of being labelled "bad"). unrealistic expectations by both parties are usually to blame. 2. low-budget doesn't refer to the actual dollar amount. more of a generality about - as jason said it - expecting a bmw for a yugo price. 3. your pm was very inappropriate. i stated my opinion to a thread that asked for it. i also suggested caulking which could handle the seasonal movement of the work pictured. again, the work isn't that bad (it ain't good, but there's worst stuff out there).

phil -
it goes with out saying that you cannot take references/testimonials at face value. i would suggest personally talking to at least one of these references. you can learn a great deal about a contractor before you hire them. and if their project was similar to your's, the reference might pass along some suggestions/things to consider/things you might have overlooked. just like this forum, feedback is usually a good thing.


jud

[Don Taylor]

i hate to stray from the crowd but i guessing that the quality of work is directly related to the price paid (probably the low bidder). as a professional home builder/trim carpenter/jack-of-all-trades, i'm still amazed at the unrealistic expectations the general population has with regards to the price/quality relationship for construction projects (you still get what you pay for). mind you, that i'm assuming this is a low-budget remodel since - 1. the work is far from perfect, 2. you're responsible for caulking and painting (a good painter can make bad work look good and vise versa, i would never leave this up to the homeowner). if this isn't the case, and you did some homework on this guy and checked out his references, then take it as a rant from a guy that's heard too many of these. but if you picked the middle or low bid based soley on price, then you should share the blame.

top professional tradespeople are busy. they are pricey (since they're in demand they can afford to be pricey). and they always come with many references. keep this in mind when shopping for your next contractor.

with regards to the pictures, the scarf joint is the only one that caulk and paint won't fix. don't skimp on the caulking. duron makes a 60 yr interior caulk and sherwin williams makes a lifetime guaranteed caulk. both will keep those voids filled a heck of a lot better than cheap caulking.

good luck,

jud

You are absolutely right Jud. Keep your mouth shut and fix it yourself. Cover woodwork with puddy, that will look just fine. A contractor is a busy man and can't be expected to waste his time doing the job right. Pay the man so he can get out of there do ten other jobs today with this same quality.
Did you ever wonder why contractors do crappy work?

[Glen Blanchard]

whoa, fellas. i think i prefaced my post correctly - if my assumptions were incorrect then ignore it.



Jud, I've got to tell you man that had I been the OP, I would have been offended at your post as well.




i'm just trying to dispell this myth that there exists some super craftsman that does perfect work at give-away prices. this person doesn't exist!!! i'm just tired of being grouped with "those da## contractors" and labeled a rip off artist.
jud

I don't think Rob is promoting such a myth and it sounds as if you took his post a bit personally



my intent was to be blunt


Well you did a good job of that.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

as a contractor i'm kind of tired of being labelled "bad"

Simple. Don't do bad work. Sounds like you have a lot of experience in this area.

Now I understand why you made the post.

I stand behind my original (pre-edited) post and the subsequent PM.

[Dan Lee]

Hey Rob
Looks like there was a lot of of trim work done was it all done as crappy as whats in the photos?

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Dan, there were about 90 joints done. 70-75 of them were as bad as shown. Generally, the outside corners of the baseboard were acceptable. The rest of them looked similar to the pictures posted.

[Bruce Benjamin]

Jud, I didn't see where Rob or anyone else suggested anything quoted below. Your statements may have merit in certain discussions but I don't see how they apply to Rob's situation or anything that Rob or anyone else said to describe it. Both of your statements seem to be at the extreme end of the scale with regards to Rob's situation. I can understand you not wanting to be grouped in with the, "Rip off artist" contractors or giving away quality work for free. Where did you see this in this thread? Rob described the situation and showed pics of really lousy work. He stated that he was supposed to pay quite a bit of money for this work. He asked if this was considered bad work, that's all.

Bruce



i'm just trying to dispell this myth that there exists some super craftsman that does perfect work at give-away prices. this person doesn't exist!!! i'm just tired of being grouped with "those da## contractors" and labeled a rip off artist.

jud

[jud dinsmore]

rob -
hopefully, my last post since this really isn't any fun. and please, no more personal attacks. the "stick it up your..." pm was so very lame.

fellas-
this is the wrong forum to post and evaluate those pics. with the exception of per, is anybody else presently employeed in the construction industry? of course those joints look aweful - to a bunch of woodworking guys. woodworking, at least to me, is about perfection (or very, very close). would anyone turn in a completed project to a loved one with joints like that? of course not.

the point of my post was to try to enlighten you that it really isn't about the quality of the work. its about the price-quality relationship and how not to hire a contractor and be disappointed by his/her quality.

first off, as someone that does this sort of thing day-in, day-out, those pics are the minimum threshold for acceptable work. paint and caulk will make it all look near perfect. since most trimmers (i would guess 80-90%) don't reinforce their miters (using biscuits, pocket screws, splines, etc.), the fact is, they're going to open up with seasonal movement. so unless you live on the west coast, or reinforce your miters, they're going to open up, period. it really doesn't matter if the joints start open or closed - they'll all be open in the winter. a good quality caulk will combat this, but just like in woodworking, you cannot stop seasonal movement.

back to some points. no one does perfect work (some people do very good work but perfection doesn't exist). people are trying to make a living doing this sort of work and the established market value of the work is pretty low. yet the expectation of work quality is very high. so most contractors do work that is barely acceptable because it is faster to accomplish and allows them to move on to the next job. they're trying to get as many jobs in because the market/society won't pay them enough to make a living doing fewer jobs (thus, people aren't willing to pay for quality). along the lines of why society doesn't value (from a supporting them financially by purchasing their work stand point) independent furniture makers. i think everyone here understands this. high society is a market onto itself, so i've only referring to "average" folks.

so how do you get good work at a cheap price? do it yourself. if you want to pay someone, you're going to have to pay more than market value to get quality work. the old addage of "you get what you pay for" is especially true here.

another point is you don't understand this business. just like i don't know anything about the i.t. world, or how to run a mulit-national, average people don't understand the construction industry. hgtv and the diy network have provided limited insight but have probably caused more harm than good. this is not meant to insult anyone. it is just different if you work in the industry. most people feel that "i could do that", and quite frankly, you probably could. the physical skills required to complete most home building/remodeling projects is rather minimum. do it a couple of times and then you would understand how to make a living at it. do the minimum acceptable job and do lots of jobs. this is no different than any other job in the world (how many people brag that they've got a "cake" job?). we're not all boyscouts. most aren't financially compensated for going above-and-beyond so why do it. pride in one's workmanship doesn't put food on the table. this, of course, is a complete contridiction to do-good-work-and-work-will-find-you theory (one that i subscribe to), but most (i hate to say most but my experience is most) contractors don't subscribe to this theory.

this is where i tie it althought - if you did understand the construstion business you would understand that the pics you posted are "acceptable" (and will improve dramatically with paint and caulk). you would also understand that quality comes with a price, and while the cost of your basement remodel is a lot of money to you, it isn't enough to render near perfect work.

this is a cruel world and education is expensive. enjoy the free lesson from someone that knows the business.

and please, no more personal insults. i like this forum because everyone is (usually) very supportive and positive. while i could have sugar-coated my posts more, i figured that ya'll could handle the truth.


jud

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Looks like things are improving. Remember that scarf joint? Here's an improved version. Still has the rapid-fire nail holes but I can live with that. It lines up just fine now.
63287

And here's the other half-wall, with column. I won't show a close up of where it meets the wall but it's scribed to the wall just right.
63288

Here's an improved door molding:
63289

Didn't show this before but this is what the trim looked like at the steps:
63285

This is how is looks now. Nice.
63286

See jud. Good work can still be done.

[Bruce Benjamin]

Sorry Jud, but I just don't agree with you. I've done a little of this work in my job as a painter. Sometimes the job has called for me to install trim and do some drywall work too. I DO understand the construction business. This work isn't acceptable to me and probably wouldn't be to too many other people either, as evidenced by this thread and it's responses. Painting isn't supposed to require the cover up of this many sub-par joints. I wouldn't do it without getting more money and I'd point it out to the customer. And I have demanded more money to fix other people's shoddy workmanship. Filling a few gaps here and there is one thing. That job is beyond what I would include in a standard painting job. What if this wasn't going to be painted? I hope you don't think that would be acceptable for any non-painted trim work. YOU may think this work is standard but it isn't the kind of work I've seen many others do or that I have done.


rob -

(Snipped a whole bunch of stuff I don't agree with to get to this)

this is where i tie it althought - if you did understand the construstion business you would understand that the pics you posted are "acceptable" (and will improve dramatically with paint and caulk). you would also understand that quality comes with a price, and while the cost of your basement remodel is a lot of money to you, it isn't enough to render near perfect work.

this is a cruel world and education is expensive. enjoy the free lesson while i could have sugar-coated my posts more, i figured that ya'll could handle the truth.


jud

I think we can all handle the truth but apparently the truth, (in this case at least) is open to interpretation. I still don't see where your version of the truth and our "Free Lesson" applies to Rob's original post. Everyone has different opinions. And I think what you are presenting as the truth is really just your opinion. Sorry.

Bruce

[Rafael Carias]

I've done finish carpentry for a living in the beach areas surrounding Los Angeles and I can tell you I've seen much worst even in the priciest of homes.

I can't speak or judge Rob's particular situation. but if you work in the construction industry you'll find that much of the slop out there is directly associated to the price paid for the work. there is of course the occasional tradesman who charges well and does bad work.

[Phil Thien]

I've done finish carpentry for a living in the beach areas surrounding Los Angeles and I can tell you I've seen much worst even in the priciest of homes.

I can't speak or judge Rob's particular situation. but if you work in the construction industry you'll find that much of the slop out there is directly associated to the price paid for the work. there is of course the occasional tradesman who charges well and does bad work.

The first and second paragraphs directly contradict one another.

If there is sloppy work in pricey homes, how can you say the sloppy work is "associated to the price paid for the work?"

My take: The majority of contractors consider acceptable work to be "anything that passes inspections and that we don't get called back on." Period.

[Rafael Carias]

Bruce, I totally agree and since you mentioned painters having to fix bad trim work I'll toss in a bone for that argument.

The average paint prep should not include an exuberant amount of "prep". too many contractors and trim carpenters assume it is the painters job fix the finish carpenter's mistakes or lack of quality which is totally unfair to the painter and the customer receiving the work.

during the time i did trim work i met a painter who worked for one of our regular generals (contractors) he was a good painter but it was extremely expensive for his contractors to have him fix bad trim work so most often a finish carpenter had to come back and fix someone else's trim work, we had to do that twice for that painter. in one house in particular the trim was so bad (to him) that the painter jumped with joy when he saw us there (me and my partner) and he couldn't stop raving about how well we did our work and how much he took the quality of our work in stride until he had to paint that house. the trim in that house was pretty bad but not as horrid as i've seen. that painter just didn't know how bad it could get (for him).

it comes to show that when you have a good combination of skill, tricks, and shortcuts you can do pretty good work that may not be perfect but is three or four notches above the bare minimum required and the painter sure as hell won't call you by names we can mention here.

[Rafael Carias]

The first and second paragraphs directly contradict one another.

If there is sloppy work in pricey homes, how can you say the sloppy work is "associated to the price paid for the work?"

My take: The majority of contractors consider acceptable work to be "anything that passes inspections and that we don't get called back on." Period.

sounds like you took offense. that was not my intension but i will say this. i can say that because i've encountered sloppy trim in pricey homes that was "associated to the price paid for the work" because the generals who paid me to fix the slop told me the price paid for the original work i was fixing was cheap to begin with.

[Per Swenson]

I don't wanna toot my own horn here but remember awhile

back there was a discussion on reputation and how to build one?

Well one thing we do is price on a sliding scale.

Our work remains the same quality, commercial/residential.

If I go do a Mt Laurel job, http://www.nj.gov/dca/codes/affdhsgguide/index.shtml

or a struggling single parent.

I should just bang the stuff on? No.

It is not about the money, although that's nice.

It's about the phone ringing daily.

I guess I would rather be respected, wanted and Ambien free then rich.

Per

[Rick Gooden]

I for one appreciate Per's perspective. I guess I am old fashioned but I was taught to always do the best job you could - and there was no mention of compensation. Bottom line is integrity! If you accept the job do the best you are capable of.

[Prashun Patel]

It's not acceptable. Don't pay him until it's fixed by someone who knows how to do it.

I'm just a diyer and even I know that a decent trimmer will cope inside corners and scarf straight run joints.

Caulk will NOT hide these problems. Basements have good temperature consistency, but can suffer humidity variations which'll exacerbate any probs you have now. i.e., you'll be caulking or cursing bad joints every year. Coping the corners is the best way to minimize the visual impact of opening corners. Shallow scarf joints hide straight run gaps well too.

To be thorough, joints should really be glued as well as finish nailed.

Trim (IMHO) is the one thing that has to be perfect. It's supposed to hide imperfections, not create them...

Asking the above of your finish carpenter is NOT out of line.

[Glen Blanchard]

If you accept the job do the best you are capable of.

Boy is that right on the money!!!!! Don't accept the job if you don't like the pay. Accepting the job means that you are content with the wage. I find it disconcerting that a sub would accept a job for pay below what he thinks is fair, and as a result, crank out inferior work. Perhaps that is how it works much of the time, but I find it disingenuous.

[Dennis Peacock]

I don't wanna toot my own horn here but remember awhile

back there was a discussion on reputation and how to build one?

Well one thing we do is price on a sliding scale.

Our work remains the same quality, commercial/residential.

If I go do a Mt Laurel job, http://www.nj.gov/dca/codes/affdhsgguide/index.shtml

or a struggling single parent.

I should just bang the stuff on? No.

It is not about the money, although that's nice.

It's about the phone ringing daily.

I guess I would rather be respected, wanted and Ambien free then rich.

Per


I really like your thinking here Per. :D

[Dennis Peacock]

All I gotta say is that this work is NOT acceptable and my youngest son could do better than that with a handsaw and a hammer. Trim work isn't easy to get correctly done....but it takes time, thinking and a developing skillset that "should" always get better over time. This job looks worse than my very first trim work. I would NOT call this guy a trim carpenter as it appears that it was done with a chainsaw and nailed up with his eyes closed.

That's the problem with our society today...mediocrity is good enough for me.

Well....not in THIS house it ain't. :D

[Alex Berkovsky]

if you did understand the construstion business you would understand that the pics you posted are "acceptable" (and will improve dramatically with paint and caulk). you would also understand that quality comes with a price,Jud,
I will admin that I do not understand construction business and myself a woodworking newbie, but looking at those pictures, I was appauled. Correct me if I am wrong, but to me simple 45° miters should be easy to cut if your chop saw is set dead-on and measuring the correct length of the molding should not present a problem. I remember replacing door trim in my house for the very first time and it came out looking much better then what is shown in the picture. Cutting corners (no pun intended) to save money is one thing, but this is what I would call having no pride whatsoever in your work.

[Ole Anderson]

My guess is that the first trim installer was maybe a rough carpenter, but definitely not a trim carpenter. Probably someone's kid who was on the crew looking for work and had a day or two under his belt without much supervision. I bet the contractor might have had it redone at his expense without much more than an appropriately raised eyebrow.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

My guess is that the first trim installer was maybe a rough carpenter, but definitely not a trim carpenter. Probably someone's kid who was on the crew looking for work and had a day or two under his belt without much supervision. I bet the contractor might have had it redone at his expense without much more than an appropriately raised eyebrow.

Bingo.
-----

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Just wanted to pop back in and give a final update. No more pictures but trust me when I say these guys made good on the trim. After closing up the gaps and re-doing the half-walls, the place looks great. I still need to do the caulk and spackle but my job will be much easier after the trim rehab.

Thanks for all of your comments, except one :mad:. I firmly believe that you judge a business by how they respond when things go wrong. Any business. The contractor did the right thing and made things right in this situation. That's all you can ask. For that I commend them. Sure, it would have been nice to have it done right the first time, but all will end well.

Thanks for following along. I need a beer.:)

[jud dinsmore]

thanks guys for understand my post. i'm not the defender of shoddy work (the work pictured originally was not good but acceptable). and i, like everyone here, always do my best regardless of the situation/pay (by best, i mean near perfect work). i am, however, well versed in what is acceptable with regards to interior trim and most things that go into building a house. a good caulk and paint job will make even the most butchered jobs look pretty good.

rob-
glad things are looking up. i mean you no ill-will. i just wanted to help you understand all of the factors that really affect workmanship. check into the caulk i recommended. cheap caulk will bit you in the a$$ pretty fast. good caulking is greatly undervalued.

bruce-
it fine that we don't agree. the miter joints in the first pics are perfectly acceptable in my area (i do much better work but those pics are common-place). most painters are use to dealing with joints that wide. they caulk all joints to include the miters no matter how open they are, so for us, this isn't an extra charge or something outside of what the painters normally do. stain grade work is another ball game. my post were intended to shed some light on the dark and murky world of construction, and while what i was loosly referring to as "truth", are just obsertations from a guy that does this stuff for a living. i felt it unfair for a bunch of woodworking enthusists (aka perfectionists) to pick apart someone's else work without any consideration for the other factors that contribute to poor quality work. i'm glad some of you understand my posts.

glen-
it's not so much that a carpenter would do poor work because he is unhappy with the pay - he's expected to do great work regardless of the pay. and since the pay is low he has to do a lot of jobs to earn a living. its really about misaligned expectations on the part of both homeowners (expecting perfection/work above-and-beyond the norm and individualize attention) and construction workers (expecting homeowners to realize that this is a business and time is money).

alex-
i whole-heartly agree with your statement about not having any pride in one's workmanship. it is truely amazing how poor the work has gotten and how many people expect to be paid top dollar for it. but this isn't limited to the construction industry. how many people do the bare minimum to keep their jobs? they don't have open miter joints to show for it, but if they did, the world would have a lot of caulking to do.

as for running trim - it often not quite as simple as cutting 45's. if you preassembly your miters with biscuits/splines/pocket screws, then it is as easy as cutting flat 45's. if you assemble it one stick at a time (like most people do) then you typically back bevel the casing legs and head piece to compensate for proud drywall around the jambs. the easiest method i know for back beveling is to stick a pencil under the trim near the miter cut before you cut it. push down on the casing so the mitered end is not touching the table on the saw. this will cut the piece with a slight back bevel (the face of the material will be longer than the back). now by doing it like this on both legs (and the header to come) you have taken your 45's and made them slightly less (since the piece isn't laying flat it changes the angle, eventhough, you set the saw to 45). now you've got to cut both ends of the header casing with a back bevel to something less than 45 in order for them to fit tightly. this usually involves a couple of trips to the saw to recut after testing the fit (i'll typically cut the header 1/8" long so i can nibble away to obtain perfect joints). most guys in our area don't make additional trips to the saw to get the joint to fit tight. they simply cut it once and the fit is irrevelant. i went to preassemblying my casings to make my joints perfect and to cut down on all of the walking around. there are a ton more "tricks-of-the-trade" but none of this stuff is impossible. it just takes time. and time is money.


jud

[Alex Berkovsky]

alex-as for running trim - it often not quite as simple as cutting 45's. if you preassembly your miters with biscuits/splines/pocket screws, then it is as easy as cutting flat 45's. if you assemble it one stick at a time (like most people do) then you typically back bevel the casing legs and head piece to compensate for proud drywall around the jambs. the easiest method i know for back beveling is to stick a pencil under the trim near the miter cut before you cut it. push down on the casing so the mitered end is not touching the table on the saw. this will cut the piece with a slight back bevel (the face of the material will be longer than the back). now by doing it like this on both legs (and the header to come) you have taken your 45's and made them slightly less (since the piece isn't laying flat it changes the angle, eventhough, you set the saw to 45). now you've got to cut both ends of the header casing with a back bevel to something less than 45 in order for them to fit tightly. this usually involves a couple of trips to the saw to recut after testing the fit (i'll typically cut the header 1/8" long so i can nibble away to obtain perfect joints). most guys in our area don't make additional trips to the saw to get the joint to fit tight. they simply cut it once and the fit is irrevelant. i went to preassemblying my casings to make my joints perfect and to cut down on all of the walking around. there are a ton more "tricks-of-the-trade" but none of this stuff is impossible. it just takes time. and time is money.


judJud,
Thanks for a thorough explanation of the process - I am sure it will come in handy some time in the future. :)