Gas price up higher than ever

[Joe Pelonio]

I'm curious to see if gas in other areas has gone up as high as here. Our 2 local stations here on the plateau $3.19/$3.21, down in Bellevue the cheapest I saw was $3.16. Glad I'm working at home now.

[Bruce Volden]

Joe,

Here in Sioux Falls I filled up last week @ $2.69, this week $2.73. But this is ethanol. Plain ol gas is about $.03 higher, premium around $2.86. Diesel weighs in @ $2.99 :eek: :eek: :eek:


Bruce

[Jim O'Dell]

We were at 2.79 yesterday. That means its probably 2.83 today. :eek: :eek: For a few days, everytime I drove past a certain intersection, the gas had gone up 3-5 cents. That was 2 to 4 times per day! Jim.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Not to worry.

Soon enough the on-again-off-again hue and cry for alternative energy cars will be on - - - again.

A few months later the Saudis will do something that will lower the price.
They may be greedy but they are not stupid.

Here is where we get our oil:
WHERE WE GET OIL (2005)
18% from Canada
12% Saudi Arabia.
15% West Africa in general (Nigeria, Gabon, Angola, etc.)
15% Mexico
12% Nigeria and the United Arab Emirates.
10%Venezuela
5% Iraq
3% Algeria
3% Columbia
3% Equador
2% Kuwait
2% United Kingdom
1% Norway
1% Equatorial Guinea
source: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/reserves.html
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/mcrimus1a.htm
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/info_glance/crudeoil.html
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/natural_gas/data_publications/crude_oil_natural_gas_reserves/current/pdf/appb.pdf
ftp://ftp.consrv.ca.gov/pub/oil/annual_reports/2004/0102stats.pdf

[David Dundas]

You guys should consider yourselves lucky. In Australia we pay the equivalent of US$3.78; and in Europe the price is around double that. Perhaps you need to tax gas more to fund a decent health-care system.

David

[Mitchell Andrus]

Not to worry. A few months later the Saudis will do something that will lower the price. They may be greedy but they are not stupid.



As long as gas is the cheapest fuel, alternatives will remain an asterisk in the statistics.

We won't be here to see this... but - the REAL crunch will come when oil and natural gas are no longer available to heat our grandkid's homes.

80% of all residences don't have nearly the surface area for enough solar cells/heating panels to run the fridge and TV, let alone baseboard heaters.

NIMBY or not, nuclear is coming to a neighborhood near you.

In 30-40 years, the problem of spent nuclear fuel will be dwarfed by the problems encountered when 1000-2000 tons of rotting batteries need to be disposed of - per year, per state.

Gas can go to $10.00/gallon.... THESE will STILL be remembered as the good ol' days.

[Joe Pelonio]

As long as gas is the cheapest fuel, alternatives will remain an asterisk in the statistics.

We won't be here to see this... but - the REAL crunch will come when oil and natural gas are no longer available to heat our grandkid's homes.

80% of all residences don't have nearly the surface area for enough solar cells/heating panels to run the fridge and TV, let alone baseboard heaters.

NIMBY or not, nuclear is coming to a neighborhood near you.

In 30-40 years, the problem of spent nuclear fuel will be dwarfed by the problems encountered when 1000-2000 tons of rotting batteries need to be disposed of - per year, per state.

Gas can go to $10.00/gallon.... THESE will STILL be remembered as the good ol' days.
Here in the Pacific Northwest there's nowhere near enough sun to even think about any kind of solar energy. I wonder what happened to the idea of using the ocean waves and currents to generate electricity.

Wow, now I feel old, I remember 25 cents a gallon when I first started driving. I could fill up for $5, when money was tight we'd get a dollar's worth and run several days...

[Nancy Laird]

What about wind energy??? There are wind farms popping up all over the country - in Minnesota, Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico. These wind farms can provide mega amounts of energy. Here in New Mexico, good old Public Service Company can provide your home specifically with electricity generated from a wind farm---for a premium per kWh. The wind is free, dammit - why do they charge a premium for the energy produced from a free source????

Gas: last street price I saw was $2.91 at the corner station; I paid $2.76 on Wednesday at Sam's Club.

AND DON'T TRY TO TELL ME THAT THE OIL COMPANIES ARE NOT IN COHOOTS ABOUT THE RISE AND FALL OF GAS PRICES.

Nancy

[Roy McQuay]

My gas is $2.84 today for regular. How else can the oil companies keep making record profits while we send our sons and daughters to fight for their oil supplies.

[Kyle Kraft]

Nancy,

Here's why.....your profit margin is greater when you charge more for something you got for free. This only applies if you got the wind turbines for free.

I dabble in the wind business, but only water pumping windmills so far.

[Rob Bourgeois]

wind is not a solution...

It takes an area the size of South dakota to power a city the size of New York city. Conservation is the key.

Much like hybrid cars, wind may look and feel green but its not a solution. Hybrids produce more waste to produce than a normal car due to the batteries...so the end result is you move pollution form one compartment to another. Of course it doesnt matter because you "feel better" and "look better" than those around you and thats what the hybrid car movement is about.(like buying carbon credits)

Nuclear is the way to go until science can come up with a better solution. ( something unknown???)

[Ken Garlock]

Several months ago, either Scientific American, or Discover Magazine, had articles on nuclear and coal electric generation.

The problem with spent nuclear fuel rods is solvable. The rods can be processed back into usable fuel and other byproducts are essentially harmless. The problem is that everyone is afraid to build a plant to do the reprocessing. In addition, and there seems to be a 'not invented here' attitude among other scientists. Therefore we will continue to put the spent rods in a hole in the ground. Pretty stupid thinking.:(

The coal fired electric generation plant problem of pollution can be solved by coal gasification. It is a two stage process that will allow the generation of electricity at each stage. The final output from plant is harmless. Problem is that such a plant will cost about 10 to 15 percent more to build.

Conservation? Why bother, Canada has an estimated 300 year supply of oil locked up in their oil sands. :eek: :D

Anyone care to guess what person had a $30,000 utility bill for a year?

[John Daugherty]

I live in East Tennessee. Oil wells are being sunk like crazy around me. I can stand on my front porch and count 5 that have been drilled in the last year alone. I've been approached about putting a couple on my land.

[Dennis Peacock]

Oil and NG drilling is going on like crazy here in Arkysaw. But that's not making my fuel prices go down any. :(

[Michael McCoy]

Oil and NG drilling is going on like crazy here in Arkysaw. But that's not making my fuel prices go down any. :(

When I left St. Francis, Arkansas 38 years ago I filled up for 28 cents. :)

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

What about wind energy??? [...]The wind is free, dammit - why do they charge a premium for the energy produced from a free source????
Yah the wind is free, but those huge supremely sophisticated turbines are pricey as all get out.

Actually it's more complex than that.

Energy is Fungible.

An Erg of energy in East Bazoo produced by fairy dust and wishes (assuming that you can produce energy that way) will sell for the same same price that a similar quantity of energy produced elsewhere by oil, coal, gas, nuke, or any other source.

Reason: If the Irish are paying $10.00 for a gallon of fuel that high price controls the price I can get for my energy that I made from fairy dust and wishes. The economy is global and energy is fungible.

[Craig D Peltier]

Why does gas go up the next morning when its the same gas in the gas stations tank? They paid the same.
My dad swears that all %100 of gas comes from the same source.They just put there name on it. Hmmm

I hate big companies.We have no say.

[Jim Becker]

$2.82 today...and I didn't fill up 'cause I know I'll be in New Jersey early in the week and it's 15-20 cents less there...

Interestingly enough, I was in Houston this week and the prices there are about the same as here in the SE PA area...and they make the stuff there!

[Curt Fuller]

$2.79 for Regular here in Northern Utah. Less than 100 miles away are hundreds of capped wells I worked on during the early 80's energy boom in the Wyoming overthrust belt. But regardless of the price of gas or which alternative you think will work best, something has to change. The price is only a minor inconvenience compared to problems of burning oil.

If you have a little time to listen, NPR's Science Friday had a very interesting program today....
http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2007/Apr/hour1_042007.html

[Jason Roehl]

I filled up a few hours ago in Batesville, IN (halfway betwixt Indy and Cincy) for $2.819 for the regular stuff. I saw a station 40 miles later (wouldn't have made it) at $2.699.

Just 9 years ago, I filled my truck for $0.799/gal.

[Rich Stewart]

Hey Cliff, That adds up to 102%. And USA isn't even on the list? Don't we produce ANY of our own oil?

2.59 today down from 2.61 yesterday. Don't know why everyone is so down on oil companies. They are businesses and as such are there to make money. If you don't like the price, don't buy their product. That's the only thing that will make the price go down.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
$2.65 to $2.79 to $285 - depending on where/which stations in the Akron/Cleveland Ohio area.

Kind of a side note -
Being the "Curious George" that I am, I've been looking at the theory that oil is abiotic in origin.
Basically, what that entails, is that some scientists are leaning towards the idea that oil is produced deep in the mantle by natural process from methane. Common belief is that oil is organic and comes from decayed material from millions of years ago.

If the abiotic theory is correct, then oil deposits would/could be found even on planets that had no organic life. - say Mars?
Makes you wonder about the recently announced Chinese Mars mission ;)
Emerging industrial country hungry for oil and all that stuff :D

LOL! 'scuse me while I adjust the tinfoil headgear :D

"Don't we produce ANY of our own oil?"
- Rich
Yep. It's kind of a two edged sword. We do have considerable reserves. In a way, it's like money in the oil bank. As long as we can buy OPEC oil, and deplete their stock, our stock will become more valuable in the future.
Least that's the jist of the "peak oil" postulate.
As long as we (the US) can use up other counties oil, without dipping into our own, then at some point down the road, we (the US) will be in a role reversal situation. We'll be the ones that supply oil to countries like China that are at (in the future) the point that we are now in oil consumption.
The real trick is to do it in a way that doesn't "annoy the customers" so much that they simply invade and take it, rather than buy it.
One way to look at it is that by us using foreign oil now, we're securing a place for our grandchildren's (global) economic future, when the US becomes a major exporter of crude.

[David G Baker]

Rich,
To get a fill up, wouldn't that take an awful long hose?
Tinfoil head gear in place.

[Rich Engelhardt]

hehe,
Yep.
Wonder if Marvin with his illudium Q 5 space modulator does the full service ;)

[Belinda Barfield]

Anyone want to weigh in on the "garbage to fuel" plants? IIRC the first one in the US was near a large poultry processing facility. I know that initially it was not "profitable" as a plant did not produce enough surplus energy. It did, however, provide enough energy to run the processing plant. As the technology improves maybe this would be an option.

Under the as yet unknown energy source umbrella, maybe someone out there has an idea for doing something with all those batteries were killing. :)

[Mitchell Andrus]

The real hurdles to overcome with energy in general...

Storage and Delivery

Reliable sources:
Hydro-Electric is stored in lakes and rivers and delivered via wire.
Fossil-Electric is stored (post refinery) in tanks for oil and underground and at mines for coal, and delivered via wire.
Nat. Gas is stored underground and in tanks and delivered via pipe.
Fossil Oil is stored (post refinery) in tanks and delivered via pipe and point of use tanks.
Nuclear-Electric is stored as fuel pellets and delivered via wire.


Unreliable sources:
Wind-Electric subject to calm weather outages and has no storage capability other than point-of-use batteries.
Solar-Electric has no 'buffer' storage capability for nite and weather outages, other than point-of-use batteries.
Grain-Oils are stored in tanks and delivered via pipe and point of use tanks, but is prone to crop failure outages and a shortage of fertile soil.

So, what do we do?

[Dennis Peacock]

Unreliable sources:
Grain-Oils are stored in tanks and delivered via pipe and point of use tanks, but is prone to crop failure outages and a shortage of fertile soil.

So, what do we do?

Just spread around more manure and keep planting. :D

[Joe Chritz]

Craig it is a commodity item. The price isn't set by what you paid for it but by what you have to pay to replace it. It is fairly common for a number of goods.

The only complaint I had with the oil companies is that a 100% increase in the price of crude shouldn't increase the final product price 100% unless they have no overhead or labor. Granted those costs would also rise because they have to buy fuel and heat but it wouldn't be as much. That is a huge jump on my part and maybe their costs are increasing at such a rate.

Joe

[Curt Harms]

Craig it is a commodity item. The price isn't set by what you paid for it but by what you have to pay to replace it. It is fairly common for a number of goods.

The only complaint I had with the oil companies is that a 100% increase in the price of crude shouldn't increase the final product price 100% unless they have no overhead or labor. Granted those costs would also rise because they have to buy fuel and heat but it wouldn't be as much. That is a huge jump on my part and maybe their costs are increasing at such a rate.

Joe

They wouldn't be announcing record profits if they weren't doing well. Watch somebody try to take oil companies private so they don't have to disclose financial results:eek:.

[Fred Chan]

You guys are lucky! Regular gas here costs $1.21 per liter.

[Dennis Peacock]

I know I get irritated about gas prices fairly often.....but I wonder why people don't get upset over paying $9 per gallon for bottled water when it's little more than free out of the tap?? :confused: :rolleyes: :D

[Joe Pelonio]

I've wondered that a lot, also a 12 oz. cappuccino at Starbucks costs close to $10 a gallon.

After thinking about it, most people are not going to drink more than 2-3 coffee drinks or bottled waters a day, and it's their choise to drink something that expensive rather than tap water or home drip. With gas, you have very few alternatives, and you must have it to go to work, buy food and so on, especially in areas like ours without decent public transportation. The other thing is, bottled water and coffee drinks (and all other products) are going to cost more when the gas prices go up, since things have to be delivered to the stores. Some places (pizza) are already charging for delivery that used to be free. One of my suppliers used to deliver free but now only for orders over $100, otherwise they charge $25.

[Dennis Peacock]

Joe,

You are correct sir and a nice observation indeed sir. I was just making a statement at what we spend many times without even thinking about it until it comes to gas/fuel prices. ;)

How 'bout them Hawgs!!!! :D

[Jeff Wright]

This comment will stir the pot: I believe we should RAISE the price of gas to $3.50 at a minimum and take that mark-up and use it to discover alternative sources of energy and conservation initiatives. It will serve at least two beneficial purposes . . . 1] reduce consumption, and 2] help us out of our reckless and contra-national security mindset of continuuing to fund the middle east's efforts to demonstrate their dislike of anything West.

[Joe Pelonio]

This comment will stir the pot: I believe we should RAISE the price of gas to $3.50 at a minimum and take that mark-up and use it to discover alternative sources of energy and conservation initiatives. It will serve at least two beneficial purposes . . . 1] reduce consumption, and 2] help us out of our reckless and contra-national security mindset of continuuing to fund the middle east's efforts to demonstrate their dislike of anything West.
That's a good point, but I'm not sure that $3.50 would provide the motivation.

There's just too much cost involved in the alternatives, including the negative environmental effects of the alternatives as mentioned before by Mitchel and Rob (batteries).

I have to laugh, because of my sister in law in CA (SF Bay Area).

Apparently in that area the hybrid cars are flying off the lots like hotcakes.
Gas there is running $3.75, but that's not why she spent $33,000 for a Prius, but because everone else is buying them. She admitted that with the price of the car vs gas at that price she may never come out even, but apparently it's become a status symbol. It won't even carry her dogs, she has a Pathfinder for that, and uses the Bay Area Rapid Transit to go to work.

[Jeff Wright]

That's a good point, but I'm not sure that $3.50 would provide the motivation. There's just too much cost involved in the alternatives, including the negative environmental effects of the alternatives as mentioned before by Mitchel and Rob (batteries).

Out with such defeatism! Then raise it to $4.00 a gallon! Rather than challenging our nation to some inane goals like going to Mars (can you believe HE said that!), I suggest we challenge our brighter minds and youth to strive to discover something outside of the box . . . a solution that is also not unfriendly to the environment.

I'd pay 5.00 a gallon if it meant unfettering ourselves from middle east oil.

[Barry Stratton]

Just filled up today for $2.619 per gallon.

I was in western Minnie Soda the past week, unleaded was $2.749 and E85 was $2.249....hmmm.........wonder if I can convert my Super Duty to burn ethonal???

[Dennis Peacock]

All,

Let's keep this thread out of politics and out of pointing our fingers at people. Let's keep the discussion clean, on topic, and educational.

While I'm sure we can't save the planet nor convert all our vehicles to run on "thin air"....we can at least have a nice adult conversation. ;)

[Rob Bourgeois]

Out with such defeatism! Then raise it to $4.00 a gallon! Rather than challenging our nation to some inane goals like going to Mars (can you believe HE said that!), I suggest we challenge our brighter minds and youth to strive to discover something outside of the box . . . a solution that is also not unfriendly to the environment.

Short sighted... research to go to Mars will no doubt improve our battery technology. In addition if they stay planet side for a while they will have to generate energy there....IE alternative methods. The space program is directly responsible for lots of the things you use today including the computer you are happily tapping away at.



If the abiotic theory is correct, then oil deposits would/could be found even on planets that had no organic life. - say Mars?


WRONG..it could have life in the past.

Re:ethanol
Ethanol is not a solution...its cost more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than if you just burned the gas thats used to produce it. Gas to harvest it, transport it to market, heat it to start the process of making ethonal.

[Brad Schmid]

If everybody rode a Harley, this problem wouldn't exist:D :D :D

I get 50mpg, use 9/10ths of a gallon of gas a day round trip to work, and it's alot more relaxing than my truck. Also alot more fun, and 0 to 60 in about 4.5s ;)

Bonus: Instead of listening to the depressing news constantly bombarding me on the radio, I just listen to the pipes:cool:

Admittedly, I can't ditch the truck completely, but it makes me smile seeing it sitting in the driveway 90% of the time.

[Barry Stratton]

Re:ethanol
Ethanol is not a solution...its cost more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than if you just burned the gas thats used to produce it. Gas to harvest it, transport it to market, heat it to start the process of making ethonal.

Probably true in the big scope of things....(although its mainly diesel to harvest and transport in these parts of MN) and the waste product is sold for relatively big $$ for fertilizer for future crops.....

In the small scope of my wallet, anything that is legal that saves me $10-$12 per weekly fill-up is defintely something I will explore. Although I'd gladly accept a check from you in that amount to keep me from depleting the world energy sources quicker:D :D :D

[Dennis Peacock]

Although I'd gladly accept a check from you in that amount to keep me from depleting the world energy sources quicker:D :D :D

Now why didn't I think of that little money making venture?! :rolleyes: :D :D
Nice one Barry!!!! :)

[Joe Pelonio]

It sounds like most of the country is still below $3, yesterday I was in Bellevue so shopped around and the best I could do for name brand regular was $3.19.

Just now on the radio I heard an ad for the local Toyota dealer, pushing their hybrid Prius, they have over 100 in stock so I guess even at over $3 it's not enough motivation to buy them.

[Jim Becker]

Just now on the radio I heard an ad for the local Toyota dealer, pushing their hybrid Prius, they have over 100 in stock so I guess even at over $3 it's not enough motivation to buy them.

Shame that folks are not snapping them up...they are great cars and with the incentives, not really much more expensive, if at all, than many vehicles of similar size. They are actually quite large and comfortable inside...even more so than our older 2002 Prius.

[Dennis Peacock]

For us, it's much more economical to pay at the pump than it is to buy a new Prius, pay the higher auto insurance premium, and pay the higher maintenace/repairs costs. It honestly boils down to what people can afford to pay each month for transportation expenses.

And...when you don't have a car payment? Why would I want to start having a car payment again? ;)

[Belinda Barfield]

Food for thought . . .

On the fuel front, a Stanford University study was just released, indicating that ethanol E85 could cause the number of respiratory-related hospitalizations and deaths to increase substantially. The study also found that while E85 vehicles reduce atmospheric levels of two carcinogens, benzene and butadiene, two others increase—formaldehyde and acetaldehyde. Thus, E85 significantly increases ozone, and thereby, smog. Researcher Mark Jacobson said, “[W]e found that using E85 will cause at least as much health damage as gasoline...”

Here is the link if you're interested in the entire article
news-service.stanford.edu/news/2007/april18/ethanol-041807.ht

[Mike Mackenzie]

This is some very interesting and disturbing reading, I can not verify it to be factual but it is interesting.

http://www.befreetech.com/energysuppression.htm

Also I have no affialition with this web site I just thought it was interesting.

[Belinda Barfield]

William Cooper authored a book, Behold a Pale Horse, published in 1991. It is a little outdated, and he is a controversial author to say the least. As a conspiracy theorist he does write some interesting material. His thoughts on the possibilty of ever being able to choose alternative forms of energy are along the lines of those in the link you posted. Apparently there are folks out there who believe that good alternatives to oil exist, but are suppressed. . . they just can't seem to find the proof.

[Jim Becker]

For us, it's much more economical to pay at the pump than it is to buy a new Prius, pay the higher auto insurance premium, and pay the higher maintenace/repairs costs. It honestly boils down to what people can afford to pay each month for transportation expenses.

And...when you don't have a car payment? Why would I want to start having a car payment again?

No disagreement...no car payment is great and more than makes up for the cost of fuel if the vehicle is not causing maintenance costs and in good running order. But for folks already considering buying or needing to buy a new, fuel efficient vehicle in that size range, they really owe themselves a look. I paid through the nose for my hybrid Highlander ('cause it was new and un-discounted at the time) but I'm certainly feeling good about the fuel economy I get and will get for many years to come. And the near zero emissions is a good feature, too. Professor Dr. SWMBO's Prius has also served us well and has been paid off for years. The current pricing on Prius is quite attractive for those who look.

[Dennis Peacock]

No disagreement...no car payment is great and more than makes up for the cost of fuel if the vehicle is not causing maintenance costs and in good running order. But for folks already considering buying or needing to buy a new, fuel efficient vehicle in that size range, they really owe themselves a look. I paid through the nose for my hybrid Highlander ('cause it was new and un-discounted at the time) but I'm certainly feeling good about the fuel economy I get and will get for many years to come. And the near zero emissions is a good feature, too. Professor Dr. SWMBO's Prius has also served us well and has been paid off for years. The current pricing on Prius is quite attractive for those who look.

I agree with ya Jim. I one is already considering a newer vehicle, then I too, would be seriously shopping for a more fuel/energy effecient vehicle. But I agree with others here as well.....we really need something to transportation that will aid in getting us further away from fossil fuels.

[Joe Pelonio]

Update - my local station is now $3.63 for regular. The lowest I could find in nearby cities was $3.36.

[Dennis Peacock]

Update - my local station is now $3.63 for regular. The lowest I could find in nearby cities was $3.36.

$2.83 here in Arkysaw Joe....It's not as high as it's going to get. ;)

[Brad Schmid]

paid $2.63 here yesterday

[Joe Pelonio]

We had a newspaper headline predicting $4.00+ by mid summer here. Hopefully the change from winter oxigenated to normal gas will help with the mileage.

[Belinda Barfield]

Just filled up for $2.909 out by I-95. :(

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Hey Cliff, That adds up to 102%. And USA isn't even on the list? Don't we produce ANY of our own oil?
I am not the evil genius who extrapolated the numbers. I merely cuttetedd and pastedeted 'em.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I saw figures the other day that said about 40% of the oil use here is domestic.

There are a lot of reasons and excuses for the rising prices........Note - I defending the prices just making a statement....There are some real reasons and some limp excuses.........

[Joe Pelonio]

My big question that I haven't heard explained, is why I have to pay more than 25% more per gallon than Belinda does. It's not a shipping issue, ours comes from local refineries just up I5.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Joe....Now this answer would be an excuse .....

[Rob Bourgeois]

My big question that I haven't heard explained, is why I have to pay more than 25% more per gallon than Belinda does. It's not a shipping issue, ours comes from local refineries just up I5.

Use tax to help lower the useage is one thought that pops into my head. California uses environmental taxes on gas to try to help curb pollution. I doubt it works unless you talk of doubling the cost then maybe you may get someones attention.

In addition transportation DOES come into play. Generally gas is shipped in pipelines from the refineries to a central distrubution hub. This hub then fills tanker trucks which deliver it to your local station. The plants do not have loading capabilities for gas. So if you think about it..the most expensive transportation costs occur nearest the plant.

My dad worked in a refinery and explained to me this. In addition, I worked there and NEVER saw a single tanker truck being loaded with gas at a refinery...BUT theres plenty of pipelines leading out. The use of pipelines is desired by the refineries because sometimes production is "spotty" so instead more land for tank storage they ship it out. No back up of tankers, no one waiting since the distribution center has tank storage. Also if you look...refinery division of a company is separate from distribution....

[Joe Mioux]

I have gotten in on this discussion a bit late.

For the past several weeks I have used E85 in my 1999 Plymouth Voyager mini van, Odometer reading 189,000 plus miles.

The price of e85 in currently 2.59 and reg is 2.95. I get 3 miles per gallon less economy with e85. At a 35 cent price difference it is still cheaper to run reg, but I don't.

I am not so sure that ethanol incurs more cost to make than it is worth. after all it's just grain alcohol. anybody can distill it. At $2.59 per gallon, I would bet that it is becoming profitable. Those comments about it costing more to produce than sell were made back when reg gas was below $2.00

Now if you really want a cheap fuel source, go with soybean oil and a diesel engine. :)

I am a former PR Director for a soybean organization and I have heard this stuff back in the 80's

[Greg Ladd]

Without taking a specific areas' taxes into account, it is all really just supply and demand; both on the crude oil prices and the cost we see at the pump.

Don't forget that oil is bought and sold on a world commodities price basis. The big oil companies make their money by selling oil in barrels not gasoline in gallons.

Many oil companies would prefer not to sell gasoline at retail locations. In fact, most retail stations now make more profit in the convenience store side of the retail outlet.

I have stated this before but once again; a huge part of the issue is the lack of excess supply. Many refineries are land locked and unable to expand to dramatically increase throughput and no one wants to allow new refineries to be built in their back yards.

As a result, unless we conserve and reduce the amount of gasoline we use, the price will not come down.

All of that being said; OPEC does a great job of controlling the flow of crude to maintain an certain amount on the world market. This causes prices to fluctuate within a fairly narrow range that they feel will cause the demand to stay stable. They won't allow prices to get so high that governements get upset or consumers find permanent ways to stop using oil base products.

There is a certain number of people that feel that Iran ( and other countries) often causes turmoil in the world in an attempt to cause fear in the oil markets and therefore increasing the short term price per barrel costs of oil. This results in dramatically higher revenues for the Iranian government in the time period of a given incident. Look at the recent issue with the British sailors for example.

An interesting theory to say the least.

Just my 2 cents which is probably only worth a penny,
Greg Ladd

[Jason Roehl]

Whatever the supply and demad curve is, I'd bet that if EVERYONE stopped speeding altogether, the price would be cut in half. I'm sure that alone would cut consumption by 10% or so. I still can't believe how many people I see on the interstate cruising at 80 or 90 MPH in their SUVs. Not good when they already have the aerodynamics of a brick.

We're right at the $3 mark--$2.999/gal right now.

[Dennis Peacock]

A most excellent thread here folks. Gas has gone up another 5¢ in the past 2 days here. Super is now at $3.09 per gallon and Regular is getting ever so close to $3.00 per gallon.

[Joe Pelonio]

Whatever the supply and demad curve is, I'd bet that if EVERYONE stopped speeding altogether, the price would be cut in half. I'm sure that alone would cut consumption by 10% or so. I still can't believe how many people I see on the interstate cruising at 80 or 90 MPH in their SUVs. Not good when they already have the aerodynamics of a brick.

We're right at the $3 mark--$2.999/gal right now.
here it's hard to speed, the interstate normally moves at about 25 a good part of the day. That's wasting a lot of gas too. Don't get me started on the highay department here.

Last evening we were headed down I405 and only the car pool lane was moving, some guy in it on a motorcyle was going about 60 and kept doing wheelies!

[David G Baker]

Joe,
I can't speak for WA, haven't driven there. Try a 50 mile one way commute to San Francisco CA over the Bay Bridge 5 days a week for 26 years. 20 of those years were in rush hour traffic. 25 mph would have seemed like racing. LA is much worse.

[Barry Stratton]

Just filled up today..... $2.679/gal unleaded.

[Jim Bell]

You guys should consider yourselves lucky. In Australia we pay the equivalent of US$3.78; and in Europe the price is around double that. Perhaps you need to tax gas more to fund a decent health-care system.

David
No Thanks. Socialism Sucks. :mad:

[Jim Becker]

Professor Dr. SWMBO got stuck paying $2.96 a gallon here in SE PA when she filled up her Prius this afternoon...it was only last week that I filled my Highlander hybrid in New Jersey for $2.57 a gallon. Quite a big swing...:o

[Matt Meiser]

What about wind energy???

There was a segment on This Old House in the last week or two where they visited a wind farm. Each tower will power something like 300 average homes, but even when Texas is fully built out with wind farms they expect to only make about 10% of the state's energy needs. I've thought about looking into some kind of wind power for home since we have pretty consistent high winds right around me. More of a hobby thing than a real energy savings though.


I can stand on my front porch and count 5 that have been drilled in the last year alone. I've been approached about putting a couple on my land.

They were searching around here and sank one well about 5 miles away. I haven't heard anything since. I sure wish they would have found some in my back yard.


Anyone want to weigh in on the "garbage to fuel" plants?

I've done work for a company that is solely dedicated to harvesting the methane found in landfills. They are basically breaking even from what I understand. The plant investment (compressors and filtering equipment) is substantial and maintenance costs are fairly high due to the corrosive nature of the landfill gas. They are a subsidiary of a large utility and get some substantial tax breaks, and I would imaging emissions credits, for this venture.

The other major garbage-to-fuel option is burning it and the opposition is huge. Around here I've been at one site where they burn tires and other waste material in a cement kiln, and another where they burn sludge at a wastewater treatment plant (just for disposal, not for energy.) Both are very controversial projects.


If everybody rode a Harley, this problem wouldn't exist:D :D :D

Kind of cold here in the winter for that. :eek:

[Tyler Howell]

2.95 today up $.30 in 2 days:eek:

[Belinda Barfield]

I've done work for a company that is solely dedicated to harvesting the methane found in landfills. They are basically breaking even from what I understand. The plant investment (compressors and filtering equipment) is substantial and maintenance costs are fairly high due to the corrosive nature of the landfill gas. They are a subsidiary of a large utility and get some substantial tax breaks, and I would imaging emissions credits, for this venture.

The other major garbage-to-fuel option is burning it and the opposition is huge. Around here I've been at one site where they burn tires and other waste material in a cement kiln, and another where they burn sludge at a wastewater treatment plant (just for disposal, not for energy.) Both are very controversial projects.


Matt,
The plant I was referring to used a combination of heat and compression, IIRC, to breakdown turkey parts and pieces left over after processing. Byproducts of the process were basically oil, which was then refined, and water. There was an article about the process in Discover magazine a couple of years ago, and a follow up about a year ago. Are you familiar with this type of plant?

[Matt Meiser]

No I haven't seen those. Where do they get the heat?

[Belinda Barfield]

The process is called thermal depolymerization. The company behind the technology is called Changing World Technologies. IIRC, the first run of the plant produces fuel for subsequent runs. The first run requires an outside power provider. This is one of those things that sounds almost too good to be true, as apparently they can process almost any form of refuse. The first TD facility processed byproducts from a Butterball (I think) poultry plant that was hauling away huge truckloads of turkey parts and pieces daily.

If you are interested in the article in Disocver magazine it is still available for viewing on line. It was in the May 2003 issue I believe.

[Paul Kunkel]

Prices are still a factor of what the buyer will bare. I live halfway between Taos, NM & Alamosa, CO. Co has higher road tax and NM has a much higher fuel price at the pump. Both are far from distribution. Taos Plus price $3.299 Alamosa Plus $2.93 Where do I shop? Tell me why the Taos people will pay .37c more a gal. I absolutely refuse to spend my $$ in that town when every thing is less upcountry.

[Mike Mackenzie]

I totally agree here in So. Cal we get a .30 cents per gallon difference between cities that are only 5 miles apart :eek: .

It in my opinion is ridiculous its all about "Money"

[Belinda Barfield]

Well folks, gas isn't gettin' any cheaper. Doing some work on a motor yacht here at a local shipyard. They just put her in the water after partial refit and fueled her up - 4,000 gallons. She's sittin' pretty in the water so before departure the tanks get topped off to the full level - 9,000 gallons. Glad I'm not footin' the bill, but wish I could afford to. :D Guess I'll have to be satisfied with filling up the Black Max on the way home today.

[Pete Simmons]

Responding to high costs at the pump, the House of Representatives approved legislation Wednesday that would outlaw gasoline price gouging.
Many lawmakers said it may be easier to say than to detect or enforce.
The bill would penalize individuals or companies for taking "unfair advantage" or charging "unconscionably excessive" prices for gasoline and other fuels.
Opponents said the language was too vague, and that the Federal Trade Commission, which would enforce the law, has not clearly defined price gouging.
"I don't know what 'unconscionably excessive' means," Rep. Joe Barton, R-Texas, said.
The bill's chief sponsor, Democratic Rep. Bart Stupak of Michigan, said he had no doubt the FTC would be able to determine price gouging once the agency had a law to uphold.

-----------------------

What if I owned a gas station and had 20,000 gals in the ground. I suddenly (Because I feel like it ) raise my price to $10/gal

OK then the gouging police get me and off we go to court.

But Mr Judge Sir, bottled water is even more per gallon so I feel $10/gal gas is a deal.

Wish I had a lot of money to do this and pay some high price (gougers) Attorney to take care of it.

Would make an interesting court case!

[Joe Pelonio]

I've started shopping around. It seems almost like the mid '70s when we had rationing. If I pass a station with $3.36 I'll fill it even if I'm half full to avoid paying $3.52 around home. Saves me less than $2 but makes me feel better.
Plus I can stick my tongue out at the local station, only two of them for a city of about 45,000 people so they definitely are gouging.

[Jason Roehl]

Joe, if they're selling most or nearly all of their gas before the next delivery, they're not gouging. They're simply charging what the local market will bear. If you don't like the prices, just add more oil company stock to your portfolio and roll in their record profits with them. Or open your own gas station.

Personally, I don't think gas prices will go TOO far--after all, if people aren't going to work, they aren't DRIVING to work, either! At some point we'll just find different ways of doing things.

[Joe Pelonio]

Joe, if they're selling most or nearly all of their gas before the next delivery, they're not gouging. They're simply charging what the local market will bear.

Are you talking about the local stations or the companies? Safeway in Bellevue which is about 12 cents less has the truck there every day filling the tanks, and cars lined up all day. I pass by these two name brand stations several times a day and have never seen the truck filling the tanks, nor any lines at the pumps. I have no real data on how much of their tanks are selling before refills but I suspect that they are capitalizing on the people that need gas to get to work and can't make it the 6-10 miles down to the next, less expensive stations.

[John C. Wilson]

Here in N.E. Iowa we are paying 3.23 a gallon............aaaaaaand that is cheaper than last week 's 3.32 a gallon. Man, with the 39 gallon tank on my Dodge Ram truck I almost need to take out a loan to fill up....sooooo I would take you guy's 2.79 a gallon right now.

[Jim Becker]

I drive to New Jersey to save 15-20 cents per...

[Jason Roehl]

Well, shoot--today we just saw gas DROP $0.15 to about $3.45. :eek: I've heard some parts of Chi-town have topped $4.

Maybe if everyone stays home for Memorial day, they'll have to unload all that gas and we'll see $2.00 per again. :rolleyes:

[Karl Laustrup]

Just heard on the news, that a gas station in a suburb of Milwaukee closed for 24 hours to protest the high cost of gas.

You read that right. The operator of the station closed the station himself and stopped selling gas to protest the high cost and the record profits of the oil companies.

Just think what that would do if a whole bunch of them did that all at once?

Karl

[Tyler Howell]

3.16 last night fill up. Every little bit helps. Pump still kicked out at $75.00 :eek: using CC at the pump

[Jason Roehl]

I HATE that, Tyler. I used to have problems at $50 when gas first started to nose up in '00-'01. I'd swipe twice, the second swipe being for $3-5. Now, if I were to run both tanks almost empty like I normally do (not using the rear due to a leak right now), I'd be looking at about a $120 fill-up. If we go much higher, I'll have to swipe THREE times... :rolleyes:

Jason

[Ed Garrett]

I agree with Dennis.

I wonder why people pumping three dollar gas get angry, while the car they are leaning on cost them $30,000 or $40,000 dollars plus interest, plus insurance, plus maintenance, plus....

I've seen many people with cars this expensive express hatred toward the oil companies, and yet they love the company that made their car!!! Why??? Cars have far more bloated prices. During the lifetime of your car, only a fraction of your total transportation cost will be gasoline. Insurance, maintenance, taxes, and the cost of the car itself dwarf the gasoline cost.

I'm not just guessing at this. In 1991 I quantified all these costs (from meticulous records I kept on my 1979 Ford truck), and put together a Fortran program to add the hidden compounding capital (opportunity) costs. Result: I was happy to pay for the gas and minimize the other costs. I kept the truck for 27 years (and it ran great because I was happy to pay for the maintenance too).

I submit to you that if you look hard at all the costs involved in driving, you will also find that expensive gas is no big deal.

P.S. I'm an oil and gas regulator working for my state. I can tell you that a big chunk of everybody's gasoline cost is taxes. Government makes an infinite profite margin on gasoline because it costs government zero to explore, drill, refine, and distribute gasoline. In every state, the tax bite you're paying for gas is higher than the oil company's profit. Oil companies average about a 10% to 12% profit margin, which is mediocre among giant corporations. Banks currently enjoy a much higher profit margin. Should we be angry at banks? Should we be angry at government? Just askin...

[Art Mulder]

You guys are lucky! Regular gas here costs $1.21 per liter.

Yeah, where are all the other Canucks in this thread? :confused:

Here in Southern Ontario we're doing around $1.05-$1.10 a liter this past week.

According to my conversion chart, a liter is .26 US gallons, or going the other way, one US gallon is 3.79 liters.

So, my equivalent price is $1.05 x 3.79 = CDN$ 3.98 or US$3.60


This is why, when I moved here, I bought a house fairly close to work, so I can cycle to work. I tell people that riding my bike and being just a one-car family is like giving myself a $10,000 a year raise. Since owing a car costs around $7k a year in gas, insurance, parking, maintenance and depreciation... and in order to have that after tax, you need to earn $10k.

[Art Mulder]

If everybody rode a Harley, this problem wouldn't exist:D :D :D

I get 50mpg, use 9/10ths of a gallon of gas a day round trip to work, and it's alot more relaxing than my truck. Also alot more fun, and 0 to 60 in about 4.5s ;)

Bonus: Instead of listening to the depressing news constantly bombarding me on the radio, I just listen to the pipes:cool:

"...listen to the pipes" indeed.

Let's just say that I think motorcycles should be subject to noise laws.
(really, mechanically, is there any reason why motorcycles can't have quiet mufflers on them?)


Kind of cold here in the winter for that.

And that is the problem for many of us. A motorcycle, or scooter, or even a moped, would be a great solution for so many folks, relieve car congestions and so on. But for the northern half of the US, and 90% of Canada, this would force you to own two vehicles, one for winter and one for summer. (Let alone the fact that, last I checked, there were no 6-passenger motorcycles on the market to handle my family. :cool: )

[Jason Roehl]

Art, I lived in Taiwan for 3 years in the early '80s. More than once we saw a family of 6 on a scooter. Little one, Dad, little one, little one, Mom, little one. No joke. The women would also often ride side-saddle behind their husbands (because they were wearing a long skirt), so we would see a lot of shoes in the road. :cool: :D

[Curt Harms]

I heard recently on TV of a survey done by I don't know who asking people how high gas prices would have to get before they cut back significantly on their driving. Answer? $4.16/gal. Like I said, I don't know how commissioned it. Oil & refining companies?:eek:

Curt