Very basic sanding and finishing questions...

[Jeff Grimes]

What order you complete your projects?

Some guys at work have mentioned some things that took me by surprise, so I'm curious...and wondering if this could be why my first two projects (one stained, one painted) resulted in less than stellar finshes.

The steps I'm concerned about (and the order I use) are:
1. Sizing, dimensional cuts to all pieces (hard to change the order of this one :D)
2. Assembly
3. Sanding
4. Painting

I've wondered how some can get dovetails painted so nice...and tops so pristinely flat? And believe the secret might be in doing the sanding and finsihing BEFORE assembly...but I'd be terrified of damaging the finish or getting glue all over...

Love to here your methods...and any pros and cons...Thanks

[Tom Hintz]

I think you have the steps correct in all but a very few instances. some like to finish riased panels before assembly, but many do it afterwards.
Sanding for me is a two-step deal most of the time. I try to sand everything I can before assembly, especially hard to get at parts, but do a bunch of sanding after assembly, prior to finishing.
as for dovetails being flat, mine are so nice and flat because:
a) I'm an ace dovetailer
b) My technique is superior
c) I sand the **** out of them after assembly when needed.

eehhh! C!

I have my moments when a project needs little final sanding, but those remain the less frequent of occurances..

[Lee Schierer]

I sand every piece before assembly with 220 grit and then sand again after assembly, particularly the joint areas. If you are painting, apply one coat and sand again to remove the "fuzz", wipe down the surface with a clean cloth and then apply the next coat. The same is true for most varnish type finishes. If the wood is stained, be careful not to sand through the stain when sanding this first coat. If you do sand through the stain, carefully touch up the affected area before putting on the second coat of finish.

I find that I can get better finishes by only applying the finish on a surface that is horizontal. This lets me put on a heavier coat so it self levels and I don't get runs. It does take longer to put the finish on a piece doing it this way though.

[Mike Cutler]

I try to sand and finish as much of a project as possible prior to the final glue-up. It takes a little more time because all the glue joints have to be taped, but it mitigates a lot of the glue squeeze out problems, and allows me to even out all the finished surfaces easier.When everything is glued and assembled then I can take a lot of time on exposed joints and end grain. It's a little more time intensive and mentally you feel as if you're not moving along fast enough, but the dividends in time spent is made up at the end of the project. My .02 FWIW

[James Carpenter]

I agree - sand, sand, then sand some more. But with finishes, take your time. It takes me a week to poly a project. I personally like wipe on poly, Usually applied once or twice a day and sanded lightly between coats. I realize you are on the home stretch when its time for finishing but i also believe the finnish accents the project, kinda like accessories to an outfit. A woman can have a beautiful dress, but with a gaudy hat, shoes, and earings its going to look like crap. Of course if its a bad dress no amount of accessories will help:) Maybe thats a bad analogy but i think you get the point.

[Dennis Peacock]

The steps I'm concerned about (and the order I use) are:
1. Sizing, dimensional cuts to all pieces (hard to change the order of this one )
2. Assembly
3. Sanding
4. Painting
-------------------------------------------------------------

Well.....#1 is right on the money.....move #3 to #2 and #2 to #3.

It is a LOT easier to sand all the pieces while they are flat or more easily accessable. The first step to a good finish is how well you prep the surface prior to finishing. I do my work in this order:

#1 same as yours....
Then move to sanding, sanding, sanding, wiping and more sanding.
Then move to Assembly
Then move to "finishing"...which could be stain, then clear top coat.
I have also learned to "spray" or "wipe" on finishes rather than brush.

Just my 2¢ worth on this subject. But what do I know. ;)

[David Rose]

I kind of go as the mood hits me. For any type panels, I will stain/finish before glue up. Rails and stiles, or any parts fitted like that, would be difficult to finish before gluing to each other. I like inside areas finished before assembly as they can be laid flat and are easier to reach and see. I usually just think through the finishing before assembly and decide if it would be much easier before assembly. Oh, and glue comes off many finishes much easier than off wood. Just get it while it's still soft. Things like miters, rail/stile assembly parts, or any parts that need to be level with each other I leave until after assembly.

The things that I paint I most often follow your order. But I haven't built anything but shop utility cabinetry that is painted so far.

David

[Ryan Singer]

I kind of go as the mood hits me. For any type panels, I will stain/finish before glue up. Rails and stiles, or any parts fitted like that, would be difficult to finish before gluing to each other. I like inside areas finished before assembly as they can be laid flat and are easier to reach and see. I usually just think through the finishing before assembly and decide if it would be much easier before assembly. Oh, and glue comes off many finishes much easier than off wood. Just get it while it's still soft. Things like miters, rail/stile assembly parts, or any parts that need to be level with each other I leave until after assembly.

The things that I paint I most often follow your order. But I haven't built anything but shop utility cabinetry that is painted so far.

David

I think Dave started to hit on something kind of important..

What I noticed to be true is that it really depends on what you are doing.. I have wasted lots of time sanding pieces of wood that never get touched so I recommend doing a dry assembly so you have an idea of what pieces might be out of reach for a sander or other tool, which you might consider sanding before glueing. you might even want to do another dry assembly to make sure you didn't sand too much and now the pieces don't fit.

Always think a few steps ahead of the game before closing the deal


good luck with what you are making,
Ryan

[Todd Burch]

Jeff, in my opinion, finishes make or break a project. A good finish can hide crap materials, but a lousy finish will make even the most gorgeous project look like doo-doo. And, a good finish over poorly prepared surfaces will amplify preparation shortcomings.

So, what makes a good finish? Lot's of things:

It starts with flat material or smooth material if it is supposed to be non-flat. Smooth curves and bends. I used to paint cars. When I thought I had it sanded smooth enough, I would close my eyes and run my hand over the project. If I felt a deviation, I knew I was not done. With wood, if I get a splinter, I REALLY KNOW I'm not done!

Tight joints are a must. Noone wants to see, or feel, or clean out crud from a joint that has a gap in it. For painted projects, you can, and should, use caulk on all joints. For stained work, it has to be right. Dry fit and clamp. Modify it until it is perfect. I accept differences in planes when glueing up because they can be sanded flat. However, I don't accept gaps for joints that aren't supposed to have them. If you haven't been a master furniture maker for 50 years, then expect yourself to screw up a piece of wood or two, realize that you have screwed it up, and make another piece. If you get to the end of a project and haven't screwed up a piece, you might not be looking close enough! Every project, EVERY project, I screw something up. Guaranteed.

Sand, but don't waste your time oversanding, or sanding areas where it won't matter, or go backwards when sanding. For instance, most plywood comes sanded pretty good, I think to 180 grit. No need to reinvent the wheel with 120 grit or 150 grit, or even 180 grit. I go straight to 220 grit. For most projects, this is good enough. For the high $$ projects, wet the surface to get all the small wood fiber "hairs" to stand on end. After they dry, sand with 220 again. When you stain ply, the rag will probably go smooth in one direction, but grab in the other direction. This could be due to how it was factory sanded or from the grain of the wood. For whatever reason, if your rag is grabbing, don't use a rag! You are leaving rag fibers on your surface that won't show up until later. Use a brush, or spray. Wipe with a finish-covered rag instead of a dry rag. It will be less likely to grab and you won't take as much finish off the project.

I've learned that with the products I use (ML Campbell), I can get a much more controlled, more even coating of stain if I spray than if I rag or brush. Application sure is faster, but it's a messier process.

For "factory" milled wood & wood products, here are some thoughts. For plywood, it may have mars on it, or the edges might be dinged-up or crushed some from handling. Sand the mars out (it is burnished, so it wont' take stain as well), but don't gouge or divot the surface. Orbital sanders are supposed to be use FLAT to the work. You can tilt it to be more agressive, but you will divot the surface. Cut the edges off, maybe 1/4" to 1/2", or orient the sheet good pieces so that these edges are not seen or will be housed in a dado or something. No factory edge will ever be good enough for a fine piece of furniture or casegood. For ply boxes that get face frames over them, I still will not use a factory edge. When fitting dado setups for fit, I never use a factory edge as it may have rounded over, sloping edges that are not true to size. At glue-up time is never when you want to learn that your dados are not the right size.

For SnS (S2S, S3S, S4S) lumber, you have to remove the factory mill marks. They are there, unless you order your lumber sanded, but guess what? They are still there (unless you have the best supplier on the planet), but your preparation is just faster since they've done a lot of the grunt work for you.

Feed slow at the jointer for smoother egdes. Run a test for yourself. Feed one edge faster and the other slow. Find a speed that works for you. When milling rough edges, I go fast at first, then slow for a finished edge. Not much sanding needed here.

Never stop sanding with a Random Orbit Sander before 220 grit. You will see swirl marks, I promise, I don't care how much you paid for your sander. If you can't see them, I will see them when I come visit. Others might too.

Square your own ends. I have a process where every time I trim an end off of a board (at least when I don't forget or get too much in a hurry), I throw the offcut onto the concrete floor. If it breaks in two, I trim again until all end splits are gone. Then, I give it a visual.

Woodworking is a process that allows you to grow from your mistakes. I've always said that the better you get at fixing your mistakes, the better you get at woodworking!

As far as sanding prior to or after assembly, I look at the tools I have. Personally, I don't have a tool to sand completely to the inside corner of a plywood box. Wish I did. Therefore for all pieces that will have an inside edge or face, they get sanded (and sometimes completely finished) prior to assembly. Outside surfaces can always be sanded afterwards, and I lean towards that so I don't have to do it twice.

For finishing, spraying inside a closed box doesn't work well. Leave the back off if you are spraying, or maybe also if you are brushing - better light and you can attack it from both sides.

If you pre-finish, you had better get good at driving fasteners precisely REAL FAST. Also, use glue sparingy. It doesn't take that much, and if you let it dry a little bit to take it from RUNNY to TACKY, you are much less likely to get a run, and it grabs faster too, and has a chance to soak into end grain or edge grain that much more.

In summary, don't get lazy in the preparation steps:

Get rid of all mill marks because the finish will amplify them for everyone to see.

Get rid of all glue, which includes squeeze out and where you touched the project with sticky fingers.

Handle the project carefully to not ding corners or dent flats. If you dent a piece, put a drop or two of water on it and leave it alone. Then, come back in 30 minutes to witness a miracle.

And always, assess your projects when you complete them. Compliment yourself when you do good. Criticise yourself (silently) when you do bad. Figure out WHY you did bad, and work on not doing bad again. If a finish is wavy, figure out why and correct it the next time in the proper stage of the process.

Figure out what works for you in the finishing department. When I went professional, I knew I didn't want to experiement with finishes for every project. I picked what I thought was a good system, and I stay with it, and I continually learn and improve as I go.

Don't point out your mistakes, unless you are just aching for self humilation when showing off your work. Most people will never see them if you don't point them out. If it has so many mistakes that you are not satisfied with it, toss it and start over. Life is too short to be annoyed with bad finishes.

When we woodworkers look at cabinetry or furniture, we dwell on the details, the execution of the joinery, the installation of the hardware, the application of the finish. When other people look at furniture, they see a table, or a chair, or an entertainment center, and accept it as a whole. Step back at look at your pieces like this, and see them in a whole new light!

I have been known to take a drawer front, or cabinet door, into my professional finisher's supply house and ask the smartest guy I can find, how to reproduce the finish. They'll tell you!

Pick the right finish for the project and decor. For a tabletop, if it will see daily use by heathen kids, a poly finish might be appropriate. For a $3000 table, I would never use poly, as to me it feels and looks like plastic. I like watching Norm, and I get a lot of inpiration for aspiring to complete every project in 30 minutes, or the bigs ones in a hour, but he uses poly WAY WAY too much. There are other finishes out there! Not every piece made needs a nuclear proof finish.

Have fun. Do what it takes to make it fun. I hate sanding. I bought a wide belt sander. I don't love sanding now, but I don't dread it as much (at least the flat stuff!) and I get better results too.

Remember this is wood. It moves. It bends. It is easy to shape, cut and glue. If you don't like your end result, remember that it sands and you can start over. (If it's REALLY bad, it will burn too!)

End of ramble. Todd. (So much for using the "quick post" feature!!)

[Todd Burch]

I think I just started my book!