What is the Best Bandsaw comparable to an MM-24?

[David Weaver]

This is a true and honest question, and hopefully the discussion will remain civil.

A friend of mine, who has what he calls "transitional" tools (high end hobbyist, but not what he wants to have) is looking to get a 24" bandsaw, and he wants the best available.

His transitional tools are things like a "PM66, DJ-20 jointer", etc (tools I would love to have).

He has his eye on the MM-24, and what he's afraid of, is that he'll buy it, and find out that there is something better available, which is what he's concluded for all of his other tools, and they're on the list to be replaced.

He doesn't post on here, so I told him I would. Is there anything obscure out there in terms of bandsaws that is superior to an MM-24 that just isn't marketed to hobbyists? I had never heard of the saw that Per showed (northfield?) on the SawStop thread, so that's the kind of thing that I'm talking about - that we're being bombarded with a "which is better" about SawStop and PM66, and there's a machine that appears to significantly dominate either.

Weight of the saw isn't an issue, and he's already checked out all of the mainstream stuff (agazzani, laguna, ...) so that's out unless someone can point to something that really suggests his decision thus far is wrong. We're looking for secrets here, I guess, but if he buys an MM-24 and finds out that there is something better available, he'll go nuts.

The 24-inch MM is chosen because it's the tallest that will fit in his shop, so that's a consideration, too - no old Moaks or anything gargantuan. Cost is obviously no object.

Thanks for your help, guys.

[Randy Denby]

I dont post much, but this caught my eye. I , like alot of people , enjoy good tools. But in the end, its about what I make and not the tool itself. Tools can make the process easier sometimes, bit to obsess with "the best" sounds more like a tool collector and not a woodworker. Just my opinion.
Randy

[David Weaver]

He may be, but I have some interest in this as we work on joint projects every weekend. My interest is minimal - from the point of view of someone who gets free time on the tools.

He's a mechanical engineer, and designer of mining machinery, so he's twisted to start off with - his idea of precision is beyond what's needed for woodworking.

I understand that he may be more of a tool collector - I think that's accurate in this case - he wants to have the best, even if it will not make a practical difference in what he produces.

[Steven Wilson]

Since he's looked at similar class machines (Laguna, Aggazi, etc) then the only machine really better would be a Northfield. He could go with a 20" or 27" Northfield and then choose the resaw height he wants (up to 36"). So for a 5hp single phase, belt drive, 20" machine with 18" resaw under the guides he would be looking at $12,500 with electric brakes, $11K with manual brakes.

[Roy Wall]

Zimmerman is also a band saw to consider. This is a German made saw and is excellent. I don't know where to find them though.......

Google Northfield Machinery and check out there website. A Northfield shop would be a nice setup. They are still being made today...one of the very few "old iron" companies still around. If you're going this route - I'd get a 27 -30" saw - but DIRECT DRIVE gets the most press for being the best (smooth, vibration free) - and I don't think these come in single phase motors..... Jeff @ Northfield will be happy to discuss options

General of Canada makes a very good band saw.....but they may only go to 20" I believe.....worth a check. I will note the General BS's are renowned for there "quietness / smoothness" - found in the 490 / 690 15" band saws and also a feature of their larger 20" saw. None of these Generals will resaw over 15" (I believe) - like the MM will. These are General of Canada and not General International (GI).

Even though he is a MM sales rep, Sam Blasco @ MM will be glad to go over the different saws with you...give you pros and cons....no pressure.

[Rob Will]

I'm just a beginner but if you want the best (IMHO), look for a Moak, Tannewitz or Zimmerman, (preferrably out of a pattern shop). I have a Moak Super 36. Several members here also have "classic" machines. The OWWM website has some very interesting downloads on the Moak and others. Nothing says quality like a 2500 lb. casting with precision machining and a 36" x 36" cast iron table that can be adjusted with one finger. (Keep in mind that not all of these machines are actually "old"). If your friend has an engineering mind, classic cast iron machinery will make his day. When he's done admiring the machinery, he can saw a 24" veneer......just because he can.

EDIT: Opps, I went back and read the original post. Big iron is out because of limited headroom. My bad.

Rob

[Jim Becker]

Since big, old iron will not play, he's looked at the three that tend to compete...MM, Aggazani and Laguna. All are nice machines. I have a liking for MM machines, but wouldn't turn down either of the other two if they appeared on my doorstep as a gift! LOL :D

[David Weaver]

I'm just a beginner but if you want the best (IMHO), look for a Moak, Tannewitz or Zimmerman, (preferrably out of a pattern shop). I have a Moak Super 36. Several members here also have "classic" machines. The OWWM website has some very interesting downloads on the Moak and others. Nothing says quality like a 2500 lb. casting with precision machining and a 36" x 36" cast iron table that can be adjusted with one finger. (Keep in mind that not all of these machines are actually "old"). If your friend has an engineering mind, classic cast iron machinery will make his day. When he's done admiring the machinery, he can saw a 24" veneer......just because he can.

EDIT: Opps, I went back and read the original post. Big iron is out because of limited headroom. My bad.

Rob

Thanks for the suggestion, regardless. The guy in question does like it, and does have the desire to replace some of his hobbyist stuff with big iron if he can convince the wife to move because of it. For now, he's stuck buying things that will fit in a larger than average 2 car garage.

[Paul B. Cresti]

David,First off the names like Agazzani, Centauro (makes for MM), ACM (makes for Laguna, Felder & Bridgewood) are hardly "hobbiest" machines. It is only because of the wealth and demand of people in this country that these INDUSTRIAL machines are now more readily available to the mainstream. Also the word hobbiest is a very misleading term. There are many people on this forum and others that are not paid, so technically they are considered hobbiests, but their work far supercedes that of the "paid" professionals out there. No secret here that I whole heartily back the MM24 but I also did own a Agazzani B24 and it was a very good machine. All of these Italian bandsaws are simply a modern steel version of the old cast iron beasts of "yester-year". By simply sayin what is the best is going down the wrong path of a never ending upgrade scenario. There a lot of people that love tools...absolutlety nothing wrong with that. They love getting new tools, simply using the tools and do not care too much for the end product. I love tools and using them but I am focusing on the end product in my small business. The best question should be, what do I want to primarily do with this tool? resaw? rip? cut curves? scroll? Each answer to the question may lead one to a different selection of a tool. What one person deems "the best" will not be so for the another. Become your own "expert" go see the machines and then decide what is the best for yourself

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I think you need to re phrase:
Best band saw at what task/s specifically.

The big BSs tend to have very low tables which IMNSHO are miserable to use for extended periods on anything small.

The big MM is not necessarily the best re-saw on the market either. Take a look at this saw:
www(DOT)falbergsaws(DOT)com

There's videos and pics a plenty. I think this is a saw that you can make yourself for a lot less than the MM would cost. Falberg wants $6-Gees.

[David Weaver]

David,First off the names like Agazzani, Centauro (makes for MM), ACM (makes for Laguna, Felder & Bridgewood) are hardly "hobbiest" machines. It is only because of the wealth and demand of people in this country that these INDUSTRIAL machines are now more readily available to the mainstream. Also the word hobbiest is a very misleading term. There are many people on this forum and others that are not paid, so technically they are considered hobbiests, but their work far supercedes that of the "paid" professionals out there. No secret here that I whole heartily back the MM24 but I also did own a Agazzani B24 and it was a very good machine. All of these Italian bandsaws are simply a modern steel version of the old cast iron beasts of "yester-year". By simply sayin what is the best is going down the wrong path of a never ending upgrade scenario. There a lot of people that love tools...absolutlety nothing wrong with that. They love getting new tools, simply using the tools and do not care too much for the end product. I love tools and using them but I am focusing on the end product in my small business. The best question should be, what do I want to primarily do with this tool? resaw? rip? cut curves? scroll? Each answer to the question may lead one to a different selection of a tool. What one person deems "the best" will not be so for the another. Become your own "expert" go see the machines and then decide what is the best for yourself

Rip and resaw are the two main purposes of the saw until either one of us decides we want to start making things that have a lot of curves. Considering that the two of us together only make two projects per year, it'll be a while before we do anything other than that. It will see duty resawing exotics.

I agree with everything you've said - the entire purpose is to make sure that at no point in the machines life does it bog down or be less than reliable, and that at no point, is the quality of the work compromised by the quality of the tool.

It sounds like the MM24 is going to be the winner - it was already the front runner.

[John Renzetti]

Hi Dave, Paul really hit the nail on the head 100% with his thoughtful and accurate reply. (did I really say that :) ) That MM24 is a top notch very heavy duty bandsaw. Your friend should get it and never look back. I ended up with an Agazanni Rapid 600. The reason it's not "better" than the MM24. I just always wanted one.
I also hate the word "hobbyist" or "amateur." Considering the work done here by those who don't make a full time living doing woodworking or any other skill trade, then their work would should be considered professional. I prefer the word "non professional." To me this means the maker does not rely on his skill at woodworking to be the main source of income, it does not denote any lack of skill.
take care,
John

[Montgomery Scott]

There is nothing there to indicate the Falberg is better than the MM. By looking at the construction I would conclude the oppsite. The frame, made of aluminum, is not nearly as stiff as a steel saw (Compare E = 10^7 to 3e7 for steel) the lightweight wheels, the small motor and design that appears to be inadequate to resist torsional loads. There is also a complete lack of reviews that does not encourage one to take the risk of buying one.

[Wilbur Pan]

...the word hobbyist is a very misleading term. There are many people on this forum and others that are not paid, so technically they are considered hobbyists, but their work far supercedes that of the "paid" professionals out there.

This is a bit of a tangent, but my feeling that the reason this is true is because the hobbyists have the luxury of spending more time per project than the professionals. The difference is that if I were a professional, and I spend 40 hours instead of 20 hours on building a table, that costs me money. Being a hobbyist, if I spend 40 hours instead of 20 hours on building a table, it's probably because I'm hiding from my crazy kids. :p

[Rob Will]

Here's a thought on the hobbiest vs. professonal debate....

We are all ARTISTS,
some get paid for thier art,
some would never sell thier art,
some can't give it away, (that's me:o)

So get whatever tools float your boat.
BTW: My Moak Super 36 is only 100" tall.
How much headroom are we talking about here?

Rob

[Steven Evans]

I have a MM 20. It is an industrial machine to me. That is a standard mount motor. Standard bearings. You can go to grainger or what ever industrial supply you might have and get motors and brgs for one. That is what I consider a commercial machine. Most parts that will need to be replaced are readily available even if models change and parts get hard to come by. I have always been happy with my MM20. I can not see needing a 24" unless said person is a bowl turner or wants to use it to mill logs. PS- get a set of Zambus "S" series casters for the MM. I am sure he will want to move it abut in a garage.

[Ted Owen]

FWIW, my 1971 used (under the U.S. Senate) Northfield 36" bandsaw with 30" resaw capacity was significantly less expensive than my MM20 bought at discount at a show.

Best, Ted

[Rob Will]

FWIW, my 1971 used (under the U.S. Senate) Northfield 36" bandsaw with 30" resaw capacity was significantly less expensive than my MM20 bought at discount at a show.

Best, Ted

Ok Ted, tell us more about that saw. Got any pics?

Rob

[David Weaver]

Ok Ted, tell us more about that saw. Got any pics?

Rob

I'm also interested - especially with respect to accuracy. As close of a comparison as you can make - what do you think of one saw vs. the other - taking out the apples to oranges things - like the northfield being much larger.

[Rob Will]

I think the direct drive saws are very smooth, Most people say you need to find a low rpm version to keep the blade speed within reason. My Moak has a 695 rpm motor.

Most big saws use aftermarket guides such as Carter. My Moak even has Carter wheels. This way, you can set up the type of guide that you prefer. See the Carter Products website

As far as blades go, a local industrial supply house makes my 19'-8" blades. A 1-1/4" version was about $30.

The drawback to big saws is that they probably need to occupy a dedicated spot in the center of a long wall. Also, three phase power is typical.

Rob

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

There is nothing there to indicate the Falberg is better than the MM.

Quite so.

However, rather than say "this is better than that" I was pointing to the fact of it's size and probable cost to build yourself and of course the videos do tend to show that it indeed does do what the maker claims it does.

And at $6-Gees a pop I doubt he sells vary many so reviews are not likely to ever materialize.
For $6-Gees you could get yourself Three Top notch Bandsaws in three sizes for all your band sawing needs.

[Ted Owen]

Here's a photo from the Northfield brochure. I don't have a photo of mine, but I can assure mine's not as pristine as this brochure photo. In fact, it's cosmetically somewhat beat up. The Senate workshop guys unceremoniously tilted her over and dragged her to the loading dock. Felder took it in on trade, when the Senate workshop bought 3 (Austrian) Felders. And I bought it from Pete, who used to work at Felder.

I use it mostly for large turning blanks for myself or turning club members and thus keep a wider blade on it. Also ripping and veneer resaw. Bill Grumbine would say that I use it mostly as a storage table. :) Too lazy to change blades often, as the 21-foot blade is unwieldy.

The MM20 I use for typical curved bandsaw work.

I wouldn't say either is necessarily more precise than the other for furniture- or cabinet-making bandsaw work, but the Northfield provides versatility and, at nearly 3000 pounds, is much more heavy duty. The MM was not built to American standards of the Northfield, but most of that difference has to do with weight and doesn't matter much.

My point is that the older large bandsaws are a bargain ($1800 for the Northfield campared to $2300 for the much smaller and lighter MM). You can still get parts for many of them. Plus they open up a new world of wonderful 3-phase machinery.

Best, Ted

62857

[David Weaver]

Here's a photo from the Northfield brochure. I don't have a photo of mine, but I can assure mine's not as pristine as this brochure photo. In fact, it's cosmetically somewhat beat up. The Senate workshop guys unceremoniously tilted her over and dragged her to the loading dock. Felder took it in on trade, when the Senate workshop bought 3 (Austrian) Felders. And I bought it from Pete, who used to work at Felder.

I use it mostly for large turning blanks for myself or turning club members and thus keep a wider blade on it. Also ripping and veneer resaw. Bill Grumbine would say that I use it mostly as a storage table. :) Too lazy to change blades often, as the 21-foot blade is unwieldy.

The MM20 I use for typical curved bandsaw work.

I wouldn't say either is necessarily more precise than the other for furniture- or cabinet-making bandsaw work, but the Northfield provides versatility and, at nearly 3000 pounds, is much more heavy duty. The MM was not built to American standards of the Northfield, but most of that difference has to do with weight and doesn't matter much.

My point is that the older large bandsaws are a bargain ($1800 for the Northfield campared to $2300 for the much smaller and lighter MM). You can still get parts for many of them. Plus they open up a new world of wonderful 3-phase machinery.

Best, Ted

62857

Thanks, Ted. I maybe didn't do as good of a job specifying my location as I thought I did. I'm also in Pittsburgh. Did you pick up the Northfield used locally?

[David Weaver]

Here's a thought on the hobbiest vs. professonal debate....

We are all ARTISTS,
some get paid for thier art,
some would never sell thier art,
some can't give it away, (that's me:o)

So get whatever tools float your boat.
BTW: My Moak Super 36 is only 100" tall.
How much headroom are we talking about here?

Rob

Rob, I think I may have missed this post - headroom is in the neighborhood of just over 90 inches.

[Ted Owen]

Thanks, Ted. I maybe didn't do as good of a job specifying my location as I thought I did. I'm also in Pittsburgh. Did you pick up the Northfield used locally?


David, you're welcome to bring your friend over and see and use both of them. Send me a Private Message to schedule.

Felder and I split the shipping from their Delaware location.

Best, Ted