Router Table Problem - Help Please!

[Hans Braul]

Today I received a new Triton router, which was reviewed as best overall and best value by FWW for use with a router table. In general I was delighted with the functionality and design. Then I mounted it in my Veritas router table and was disappointed. I'm sure it's something I'm doing wrong, but can't figure out what it might be.

When I feed stock through it, even taking off 1/8" at a time, the work piece seems to want to jump forward no matter how firmly I hold the piece to feed at a smooth rate. The result is a rough cut. See the way the router is mounted and the resulting cut. What am I doing wrong??

62627 62628

I fed the piece against a good sturdy fence solidly clamped to the router table. Any ideas are appreciated. Especially if you are using the Veritas router table or have similar experience.

Many thanks.

Hans Braul

[Ben Grunow]

Not a veritas user but it looks to me like something must be loose, either the router, bit, collet, chuck or something that allows the bit to catch and flex enough to make that rough a cut. Unplug and try to wiggle things with a stiff pull. Maybe just a loose mounting bolt.

Does the plate screw to the table top?

Good luck

Ben

[Jason Beam]

Which way were you feeding? You want to feed so that the "cutting" side of the bit pushes the piece toward the fence, first of all.

Second - how long is the bit you're using? The roughness may be feed-rate related, but it could also be flexing or vibration introduced by having the cutting action happening on the end of a long bit. A shorter bit will usually vibrate less. Though i don't know if that's your problem. Need to know your feed direction before I go much further :)

[Luciano Burtini]

That looks suspiciously like climb cutting to me.... In a table, you want to feed from the right to the left. Looking down on the table, the router bit will be turning CCW and you want to feed into the rotation, not with it.

[Hans Braul]

I am feeding the stock from right to left against the direction of the cutter, i.e. the "right " way. The clamps seem to be holding the router very solidly to the plate. However, when I grab the motor and flex it I can see that the bit moves significantly. I think this is my problem. The flex seems to originate from the post that does not have the rack for depth adjustment. When the router is locked, it locks on the rack side, not on the smooth post side. Hence there is some movement there. Is that the cause of my problem? If so, is this common to all plunge routers??

Thanks for your help
Hans

[Mike Cutler]

I am feeding the stock from right to left against the direction of the cutter, i.e. the "right " way. The clamps seem to be holding the router very solidly to the plate. However, when I grab the motor and flex it I can see that the bit moves significantly. I think this is my problem. The flex seems to originate from the post that does not have the rack for depth adjustment. When the router is locked, it locks on the rack side, not on the smooth post side. Hence there is some movement there. Is that the cause of my problem? If so, is this common to all plunge routers??

Thanks for your help
Hans


No. It shouldnt flex. I have three PC 8529's and none of them flex.

One more thought, is that maybe you are trying to remove too much material at one time?? Regardless the router shouldn't flex at the plunge posts.

[Andrew Williams]

Could there be runout in the router?

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Today I received a new Triton router, which was reviewed as best overall and best value by FWW for use with a router table.

That's where mine is. I like it well enough that I may buy a second for my slot mortiser instead of swapping 'em back and forth. I use the router all in one piece with this goofy wood handle I made that has a lever action to engage the gear operated riser built into the router.

For the life of me I don't know why so many router table people disassembled the thing as it seems to have been designed to get you out of the router lift market, and indeed it does just so long as you are happy reaching under the table.



When I feed stock through it, even taking off 1/8" at a time, the work piece seems to want to jump forward no matter how firmly I hold the piece to feed at a smooth rate. The result is a rough cut. See the way the router is mounted and the resulting cut. What am I doing wrong??
First thing that comes to mind is you may be climb milling. Try conventional milling. Yah Yah Climb milling will splinter less but ya really gotta muckle onto the work piece to keep it from slipping away and some folks find that a tad dangerous.

And NEVER - EVER climb mill with the work piece between a fence and the cutter. That'll launch the work piece through the wall for sure.

It's an awfully entertaining way to use all 3.25 ponies in the router but aiming is a tad challenging and the reload cycle is worse than an old black power gun.

[pat warner]

Is that leg tapered?
If it is, you cannot table rout it.
Straightness & squareness of fence & work are critical. Is everything square & straight?
That cutter is cutting more than 1 cutter diameter, why?

Routing whether table or x hand has its risks.
For your safety: If ever you have an unexplained result, especially one like you're demonstrating, stop everything at once and find out what the trouble is. Do not rout a second anything until you resolve the X-factor.

Routers (http://www.patwarner.com)

[Mike Goetzke]

How thick is that plate the router is mounted to. FYI most metal router plates are 1/4" to 3/8" thick and at most 12" long - you may be getting some deflection from the plate.

[Dave Falkenstein]

...However, when I grab the motor and flex it I can see that the bit moves significantly. I think this is my problem. The flex seems to originate from the post that does not have the rack for depth adjustment. When the router is locked, it locks on the rack side, not on the smooth post side. Hence there is some movement there. Is that the cause of my problem? If so, is this common to all plunge routers??

Thanks for your help
Hans

There should be NO movement of the router when it is locked. Yes, it is likely that is the cause of your problem. No, it is not common to all plunge routers, or any plunge routers. Look deeper, and please report back. Thanks.

[Steve Roxberg]

That looks suspiciously like climb cutting to me.... In a table, you want to feed from the right to the left. Looking down on the table, the router bit will be turning CCW and you want to feed into the rotation, not with it.

The most important statement you make is to feed into the rotation but the statement that in a table you want to feed from the right to the left isn't always true.

The important part of the equation is when and where is the bit making contact with the wood, let me explain and maybe Pat Warner (the real router expert, I'm not) may chime in as well.

When table mounted the router bit is spinning in a counter clockwise direction, which is important to understand. If the bit is recessed into the fence opening and the cutting action of the bit is being accomplished with the front edge then the feed direction would be right to left, resulting in a normal cut.

Now if you were performing an operation that placed the wood between the fence and the bit you would be using the back edge of the router bit and the feed direction would be left to right. I try and avoid this type of cutting situation but it can happen, as an example.

You are routing a groove for a drawer bottom and 1/4 is too much and you want to sneak up on the width. You place a 1/8" bit in the router and cut the first groove which is 1/8 in width. You now want to slide your fence 1/16th of an inch to widen the groove. If you slide the fence backwards 1/16th you are still cutting with the front edge of the router bit and the back is hitting air in the original groove. BUT, if you are in a hurry and slide the fence forward 1/16
of an inch you are now cutting with the rear edge of the bit and would need to feed from the left to the right.

So, if you are in a hurry and aren't thinking about which way to move the fence you may end up with a projectile when your board makes contact with a bit that wants to grab it and feed it at 100mph away from your hands.

[Glen Blanchard]

I'd like to know if you get the same result when edge routing.

[Jeffrey Schronce]

I know this is a remedial question, but after making the coarse and fine adjustments with the knobs on the Triton are you locking the lever to prevent it for changing depths?

[Brian Walter]

I would like to know the outcome of this as I just purchased the same router and would like to know what to look for if there is something wrong with the router. I haven't built my router table yet, so I can only test it free hand. I could probably drill a new set of holes in my old router table plate and try it out in my old crappy table.

Keep us posted,

Brian Walter

[Jack Ganssle]

Brian,

I got this router (Triton 2.25 hp) this weekend and installed it in my home-made router table. It doesn't wobble or have any slop at all. In fact, having used an ancient C-man forever, this thing is a pure joy to use.

Jack

[Rob Luter]

I'm in the process of building a router table. All the research I've done says to never use a plunge router base on a router table, but rather use a standard base or one specifically designed for a router table. Stability was cited as the reason.

My $0.02 worth.

[Luciano Burtini]

The most important statement you make is to feed into the rotation but the statement that in a table you want to feed from the right to the left isn't always true.

The important part of the equation is when and where is the bit making contact with the wood, let me explain and maybe Pat Warner (the real router expert, I'm not) may chime in as well.


Good point, and looking back at the cut again, I see that it is not really clear if the mortise and bit size were the same. I was only looking at the damaged cut side and assuming a smaller bit than the width of the cut...

In any case, if not climb cutting then something is likely moving, never a good idea when using a router. Checking for something loose should be easy to do, it can only be in a couple of places. I would check the collet/shaft to make sure there is no relative movement to the router body (which could indicate bearing/shaft or collet damage), the router connection to the table and the tables stiffness. Given that this is the LV steel table, the table is likely more than stiff enough. The connection to the table would be high on my suspect list however.

One final thing to check, sometimes if the chips cannot clear the cut quickly or efficiently enough, you will experience a rough cut. I have never seen one this bad, but it is something to consider. You would NOT want to use a down cut spiral in a cut such as this. Use an upcut or a straight bit instead and keep the depth of cut relatively shallow.

Others have claimed that plunge routers should not be used in router tables because of issues with movement. I have used a plunge router in a router table for years with no problems (with bits diameters from 1/8" up to 3-1/2"). Locking the plunge mechanism is however required.

[Hans Braul]

First, let me thank all who have contributed so far. I can't do much more tonight, but here are some facts as it stands right now:

- I'm not "climb milling"
- There is no slop in the collet
- The table is very stiff and many have expressed total satisfaction with the Lee Valley product.
- I'm using a 3/8" bit and the cut shown is a single pass.
- I've tried two different bits - a spiral bit and a straight bit. Same result, though the straight bit seems a little better.
- The lock is on firmly when I make the cuts.
- The locking arms on the table are 180 degrees from eachother and very tight. No movement of the base to the table.
- I haven't tried a feather board but I am applying a very firm pressure toward the fence with my hand. I will try, but I suspect it's not the problem.
- When I grab the router motor and wiggle it from beneath, I can see the bit moving. Seems like something isn't solid.

I will try edge routing and freehand routing tomorrow to see if the same problems occur.

Any other ideas would be welcome.

Many thanks

Hans

[Brad Schmid]

Hans,
By your last description, it really sounds like there's something loose in the plunge guide post area.

You say "When I grab the router motor and wiggle it from beneath, I can see the bit moving. Seems like something isn't solid." And you mention the base and plate are solid and not moving.

Does the amount of "wiggle" change based on where the motor is in the range of plunge travel? In other words, plunge all the way down, does it wiggle? Let it all the way back up, does it wiggle more or less?

Maybe that test will tell a part of the story???

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

First, let me thank all who have contributed so far.

Yer Velcom That'll be $0.62 please. Certified funds only.




- I'm using a 3/8" bit and the cut shown is a single pass. That, I suspect, is part of the problem.
Don't take a deep cut in one pass.


- I haven't tried a feather board but I am applying a very firm pressure toward the fence with my hand. On my first router table I was making Dovetail Keys one day when I was frustrated with inaccuracy of the thickness along the length of my "Key shafts."

I tried making a finger board with the finger ends routed with the same cutter I was using to make the DT Keys. It was like magic. Seriously, I had spurned finger boards for years. That was the first time I used one and it was like magic the difference it made.



- When I grab the router motor and wiggle it from beneath, I can see the bit moving. Seems like something isn't solid. That is I suspect another issue you should address before you hit the power switch again. If something is loose fix it~!! Failure to do so will cause substantial wear and damage as the forces on the routing process beat the things around.

[Hans Braul]

OK here's what I've found out:

- There is absolutely no movement between the router base and the table.
- I can not detect any play in the collet - seems perfectly secure.
- There is about 1/16" or a bit more of movement of the router along the smooth post when I flex the router motor.
- It seems to do freehand routing ok (see pic below)
62773
- Edge routing doesn't fare any better than routing a groove.
62771
The fence arrangement is as follows:
62772

My thoughts are that there is something wrong with the router - there should not be so much flex in the support mechanism. I believe this is what's causing the rough cuts.

You guys have been fantastic - any further help is much appreciated!

Regards
Hans