Saw Stop demo on Ask This Old House

[Ellen Benkin]

I know we all get this program at various times on a variety of PBS stations but -- yesterday on KOCE, the Orange County (CA) station, Tom Silva demonstrated the Saw Stop in action. It was part of a "how to use a table saw safely" segment. Fortunately, I happened to be taping the program so I could view it again. WOW! BANG! The blade dropped, the saw stopped, and he didn't even nick the hot dog. What a great promotion for the Saw Stop.

[Peter Stahl]

Either that or really tough hot dogs! What does it cost every time a blade crashes in one of them sawstops?

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

So then the saw is so wimpy that it can't cut a hot dog? Not even a vienna sausage?

Hmmm.
:p

[Joe Chritz]

EEK! Here we go again.

Peter... About $70 bucks for a brake on the high side and a blade. I have read that the blades aren't always completely dead but they can be reused after a sharpening and quality inspection.

On a unrelated note I have seen what they use to make hotdogs and it isn't coming anywhere near me. Nothing but Brats for this one.

Joe

[Andrew Williams]

Plonk.


I so wish that we could have an adult discussion about this topic, since it matters to me:mad:

[Jim Shaver, Oakville Ont]

I watched one demo'd at the Toronto Woodshow in early March. I had heard all the hype...any way at High Noon on the Friday we all gathered round....the Saw Stop rep was very aggresive about how he slide the hot dog into the blade, just like it might happen if you were using the saw and your hand slipped.....well BANG it stoped cold and barely a nick on the hot dog, WOW...That was very impressive.

In speaking with the staff at LV I know the stores shops have also all been outfitted with Saw Stop's...:)

[Ken Shoemaker]

5K is a lot of money for a table saw.... Makes me think of a story... I was begining to learn to fly an acrobatic routine. I went to a parachute shop to price them. The guy looked me strait in the face and told it it would set me back $2000.00!!!!! for the cheapest one they had. I couldn't phatom paying that much. Didn't think I had the money. Then the guy said " sure would be a shame falling to earth with $2000.00 in the bank." Guess that goes for the SawStop " Sure would be a shame to carry your fingers to the emergency room in a plastic bag with 5K in the bank.... :o

[Leo Pashea]

Plonk.


I so wish that we could have an adult discussion about this topic, since it matters to me:mad:

I think ALL discussions had better be "adult" from here on out. Evidentally, most folks didn't read the Admin's "shot across the bow" sticky'd at the beginning of the forum. :eek: :rolleyes:

[Jack Roest]

Question Is the safetey still active after the saw is shut off? I mean when the blade is coasting to a stop after the stop botton is pushed will the blade still stop when touched by a hot dog. At this point I almost had a serious happening. Thanks Jack

[Roy Wall]

Question Is the safetey still active after the saw is shut off? I mean when the blade is coasting to a stop after the stop botton is pushed will the blade still stop when touched by a hot dog. At this point I almost had a serious happening. Thanks Jack

YES...it will activate the brake.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Let's play nice guys, SawStop tends to be a little touchy for some people. Let's keep our comments objective, and let's not get offended by a slight criticism. All tools have goods and bads we are tool users and as such have our preferances, let's not make it personal. Any criticism of the SS should not be taken as a personal offense, by the same token if you don't like the tools or the price of it just say so, no need to make remarks about the owners of such tools.

[Glen Blanchard]

Question Is the safetey still active after the saw is shut off? I mean when the blade is coasting to a stop after the stop botton is pushed will the blade still stop when touched by a hot dog. At this point I almost had a serious happening. Thanks Jack

The brake is set up to be turned off only after the blade has stopped spinning for one second.

[Lars Thomas]

Spencer, just give it a rest, please.

[Tyler Howell]

Tommy did his thing here about 4 weeks ago. Pretty impressive.
I have and old Cman that won't cut through o hot dog or a push stick:mad:

[Glen Gunderson]

Nice thing about a push stick, is that you can actually saw through it and it will still work afterwards. And even if too much was cut off, you can make another one for free. And ohh...you dont have to replace your $100 carbide blade or pay someone to get the it working again.


It's a bloody table saw! I honestly don't understand why people feel the need to trash the saw when they have never used one. If you have specific issues with the Sawstop, why don't you discuss those?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks......Could we please start acting like adults here?

[David Weaver]

Here's an honest question from a beginner who got a kickback from a panel between 1/4th and 3/8th thickness - How do you feed that with a push stick and make sure it's flat against the surface of the table? Assuming you don't have a band saw (I don't). I don't know how to do it moderately safely - as evidenced by the internal lump at my belt line - without holding that piece down flat and reasonably close to the blade.

There are just some dangerous cuts where it's hard not to get your hands close to the blade (by close, I don't mean within a hair, but close enough that a kickback situation could pull your hands into the blade)

The tricky thing will be to see if they can develop "band stop" :)

Disclaimer - I don't own a sawstop or a bandsaw. I might only be safe to a competent level with a dovetail saw!

[Dan Lee]

I've been using TS's (non pro) for 15 years and I don't understand why I would change my hopefully good habits and proceedures to making safe cuts with SS.

In actual use the thought never enters mind ... well I have this braking mechenism so ok go ahead and make this cut ... doesn't seem safe or the normal way I'd do it but what the heck ...

In fact I like the blade guard on this so well that I use it almost all the time as compared with never on my previous saws

BTW I also use push shoes religiously

[Al Willits]

Dan, the anti kickback rollers will help keep the thin stuff down, and from heading back your way.
Also having enough table to help support the panels helps, I've added almost 5' to the back side of my table, ever since one of the launches I've encountered.
Also the push stick that Rockler or Woodcraft sells that has the magnet on it works pretty well to push panels with.
On the other hand, I'm a bit new at this so I'd bet there's a better way to do it...:)

Al....who's learning, band aid by band aid

[mark page]

Yes the sawstop is nice. I would like to have one too. But would it make me any more unsafe than I am now, no I don't think so. In the back of my mind it may make me safer. Each time I would trip the safety mechanism I would be thinking of an output of money for a new blade and brake mechanism. Appx 200 bucks for my lack of safety mindness to begin with. Is it on my wish list?? Sure, after the kids are out of school and college, after the home mortgage is paid off, after the new bass boat, and then there is the Mrs wish list to contend with too........

[Andrew Williams]

I'm not sure if one can make ogee bracket feet on the TS with push sticks. I think it may be possible to construct a series of sliding jigs, but you may still need to get fairly close to the blade.

AFAIK Sawstop has a prototype bandsaw device in their future products section. My guess is eventually these systems will see the light of day. From what I have read, Gass had a very hard time making ends meet at the beginning and did not want to make saws, but they have since sold 6000 of these (heard that from someone at the SS number). I imagine they are doing fairly well for a start-up and will likely expand to other WWing machinery, so long as people buy their stuff.

It is also just possible that eventually the Power Tool Institute will reverse their policy and decide to license the technology. I think it is quite likely that the various companies' R&D departments are looking into viable options that they can create which do a similar thing but not violate the patent on SS.

All of this is, of course, speculation. With a smattering of factual information out there it is difficult to do more than speculate on what is really happening. My own non-scientific guesses are that Gass did not want to give up on his idea once the Power Tool Institute closed the door on him. The legislation thing was a long-shot and really had little chance of doing much except annoy people, so he decided to make saws. He probably asked some WW'ers "what would the ultimate TS be like? What features would it have and what fit and finish would it have?" They started to build what they decided fit that bill, and added the safety technology, making it in the Far East which makes it not cost 4 times what other cabinet saws cost. It still may cost nearly twice as much as some cabinet saws, so buyers would be limited. Time has shown, however, that there are enough people to keep SS afloat. I predict that this will continue.

[James Phillips]

Everyone would be good to ignore Spencer. He has about 20 post on this site and every one are in threads where he says a push stick is better than a SawStop. Take it for what it is worth....

[Greg Funk]

Everyone would be good to ignore Spencer. He has about 20 post on this site and every one are in threads where he says a push stick is better than a SawStop. Take it for what it is worth....
+1 Don't feed the trolls...

[Greg Peterson]

The one thing I haven't seen anyone comment on is that this SS demo took place on a SS contractor saw.

I have read that SS is bringing a contractor version of their saw to market, and this demo was the first evidence that I have seen where a SS contractor saw actually exists!

I don't know if their technology will ever get licensed out to the rest of the market, but for those that are interested in the technology, having it available in a contractor saw configuration certainly makes it more accessible from a financial perspective.

It may cost more than a zip code craftsman TS, but $5k for a cabinet saw is a non-starter for me. Even if the SS contractor saw is 25% more than an equivalent TS, it isn't going to be as big of a deal breaker as their cabinet saw version.

[Don Bullock]

Greg, You make some good points there. I have no insight as to price, but it will definately make the technology affordable for more people. While I already have a SawStop, I'm very interested is seeing the contractor model and perhaps a hybrid being marketed because I think that they will add to the future financial stability of the company.

[John Schreiber]

Each time I would trip the safety mechanism I would be thinking of an output of money for a new blade and brake mechanism. Appx 200 bucks for my lack of safety mindness to begin with.
The safety mechanism is designed to trip when the blade is in contact with skin. Everything I read about accidents involving table saws indicates that very few of them are minor. The cost of replacing the blade and brake is absolutely minimal in comparison with the cost of medical care or the reality of disability.

False trips seem to be very rare. The only one I have heard about here on the creek happened when a user raised the blade into a zero clearance insert and caused the riving knife to hit the blade.

[Andrew Williams]

I feel I should point out that I priced a 5hp Sawstop with 52" extensions and fence and the total was much closer to 4k than 5k.

[Don Bullock]

The safety mechanism is designed to trip when the blade is in contact with skin. Everything I read about accidents involving table saws indicates that very few of them are minor. The cost of replacing the blade and brake is absolutely minimal in comparison with the cost of medical care or the reality of disability...

According to page 5 of the SawStop manual, "... the brake cartridges store the electronic data measured during an accident. If you return the activated cartridge to SawStop, we can retrirve that data to learn more about how the electronics and software performed. We will be happy to send you a free replacement cartridge in exchange." (bold print added by the poster)

I've also seen some reports from employees of WoodCraft stores where they demonstrate the saw. Those reports state that many of the blades they have used have been salvaged by repairing the area of the blade that contacted the brake. No, I wouldn't necessarily trust a blade that had been repiared. I'm just reporting what I've read.

[Steve Roxberg]

Here's an honest question from a beginner who got a kickback from a panel between 1/4th and 3/8th thickness - How do you feed that with a push stick and make sure it's flat against the surface of the table? Assuming you don't have a band saw (I don't). I don't know how to do it moderately safely - as evidenced by the internal lump at my belt line - without holding that piece down flat and reasonably close to the blade.

There are just some dangerous cuts where it's hard not to get your hands close to the blade (by close, I don't mean within a hair, but close enough that a kickback situation could pull your hands into the blade)

The tricky thing will be to see if they can develop "band stop" :)

Disclaimer - I don't own a sawstop or a bandsaw. I might only be safe to a competent level with a dovetail saw!

I use Gripper's for my push sticks and they work very well.

[David G Baker]

I subscribe to a National Electric Code newsletter, the main topic in yesterdays newsletter was the Sawstop. Included was the video of the Sawstop demonstration. The headline was, "the safest saw in the world".

[Peter Melanson]

The price of the Sawstop with 3 hp and 52" rails and ext table are much less than what is being reported. I just bought one in CO which has a high tax rate for approx. 3800 with tax. The actual saw itself is 2700. Yes more than the rest but I think you are getting more as well. I love it.

[Jim Hager]

We've got the saw stop in use in our shop at the school where I teach. It's a great tablesaw not unlike the others we have been using all those other years. Our shop had two unisaws in it and we kept one and got rid of the other. I know in my experience that the students do feel a sense of security when they know the technology is there to help save their fingers in case of a lapse of judgement. I still teach in the same way that I always have though and remind them that the saw they may have at home or on a jobsite will likely not have the sawstop technology. My students still respect the saws and haven't even tried to set it off just for fun. I work to keep their attitudes above the waterline.

Oh, by the way only 29 more days to teach then into retirement and full time woodworking I go.:D

[Peter Melanson]

Congrats and enjoy your freedom!!

[Tyler Howell]

We've got the saw stop in use in our shop at the school where I teach.

Jim do the kids bring in hot dogs and test the system:confused:
That was the reason a friend of mine refused to have them in his school.

[Don Bullock]

...
Oh, by the way only 29 more days to teach then into retirement and full time woodworking I go.:D

What???? :eek: I'm totally jealous. ;) Congratulations!!!!!!!:D

I have the rest of this school year and all of next year before I retire.:p

[Jim Hager]

Jim do the kids bring in hot dogs and test the system:confused:
That was the reason a friend of mine refused to have them in his school.

Hasn't been a problem at all. We always work to teach different ideas than that for what I call "tool attitude" The kids are pretty serious business when it comes to power tools.

[Steve Jensen]

I just discovered this saw. I'm considering holding off on the Ridgid and waiting a month or two and getting one of these. I'd rather have all my fingers minus the $3000. After viewing the videos on their website, it looks like you're not just paying for the safety features. It looks like a solid, quality saw WITH the safety features. Does anyone own one of these in their personal shop? I like it.

[Chris McDowell]

Steve there are a few guys here that own one. I know the owner of the Woodcraft stores in St. Louis and Evansville pretty well, so I called him and asked if they had a saw in the store. They did so I went and looked it over saturday. One thing this saw doesn't get credit for is how much heavier and better built it is compared to other saws.
There are too many features for me to go into here, but I'll just sum it up by saying I was very impressed with this machine. It's is worth the money just for the saw, never mind the safety features. Now obviously that is just my opinion so take that for what it's worth. If you get a chance you really should take a look at it.

[Andrew Schlosser]

The cabinet SS is available at the Woodcraft in Canton MI for $2800 and they have one ready to take home today.

I'll be glad to sell my G1023 and get the contractor SS when it comes out. As another WW'er in my area said, think of it like a $600 saw with a $600 safety option. I'd pay $600 to count to 10 for the rest of my life!

[Gary Keedwell]

Steve there are a few guys here that own one. I know the owner of the Woodcraft stores in St. Louis and Evansville pretty well, so I called him and asked if they had a saw in the store. They did so I went and looked it over saturday. One thing this saw doesn't get credit for is how much heavier and better built it is compared to other saws.
There are too many features for me to go into here, but I'll just sum it up by saying I was very impressed with this machine. It's is worth the money just for the saw, never mind the safety features. Now obviously that is just my opinion so take that for what it's worth. If you get a chance you really should take a look at it.
I beg to differ with you, Chris. I have read a few reviews that indeed, say that the SS is a heavy, well built machine and did, indeed, give it a big " thunbs up".
Gary K.;)

[Bill Huber]

Is it really worth that much money ?????


Well I think it is worth every penny of it...... and then some

Now this was not from a saw, I just wish they and a MowStop.




62737

[Gary Keedwell]

Is it really worth that much money ?????


Well I think it is worth every penny of it...... and then some

Now this was not from a saw, I just wish they and a MowStop.




62737
:( Gee, sorry about your accident. That would be my typing finger.:mad:
Like one poster said...." I'd rather have my finger...than have the money in the bank"
Gary K.

[Ken Milhinch]

One thing this saw doesn't get credit for is how much heavier and better built it is compared to other saws.


Heavier ?

Sawstop 530lbs (saw only)
PM2000 600lbs (saw only)

Better built ?

I have read this quite a bit, but nobody actually specifies exactly what is better.

Don't get me wrong, I think it looks like a very nice saw, but all this "heavier & better built" stuff is a generalisation, which I suspect is based on looks alone.

[Don Bullock]

I just discovered this saw. I'm considering holding off on the Ridgid and waiting a month or two and getting one of these. I'd rather have all my fingers minus the $3000. After viewing the videos on their website, it looks like you're not just paying for the safety features. It looks like a solid, quality saw WITH the safety features. Does anyone own one of these in their personal shop? I like it.

Yes Steve, I have one in my "personal shop" (garage). I bought it last week. See the following thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=55934

There are others here on Sawmill Creek who have one in their shop as well.

[Spencer Keysan]

writer had nothing of any value to add

[Don Bullock]

...Better built ?

I have read this quite a bit, but nobody actually specifies exactly what is better.

Don't get me wrong, I think it looks like a very nice saw, but all this "heavier & better built" stuff is a generalisation, which I suspect is based on looks alone.

Ken,
I didn't know that they sold SawStop in Australia. Have you actually seen or used one?

[Spencer Keysan]

The author of this comment didn't have anything of any value to add.

[Ken Milhinch]

Ken,
I didn't know that they sold SawStop in Australia. Have you actually seen or used one?

Don, They don't and I haven't - as I suspect you know - but I am still waiting for sawstop owners like yourself to provide specifics. Clearly the weight comment is just plain wrong, so how about the "better built".

[David Weaver]

Is it really worth that much money ?????


Well I think it is worth every penny of it...... and then some

Now this was not from a saw, I just wish they and a MowStop.




62737

Not to make light of your situation here - but you can still play banjo - assuming you're right handed. A guy I know who plays banjo lost his index finger and it took him almost no time to retrain his middle and ring finger to do the work (most bluegrass is played with a thumb and two fingers).

Not glad to see that you lost a finger, but glad to see it wasn't your thumb.

As a beginner in woodworking, and an avid banjo and guitar player, I think the feature on the sawstop is well worth the money, even if it never works once. The only thing I don't like about WWing is that there is always the chance that it can spoil my other hobbies at any time.

[John Bailey]

For all those who have yearned for an "adult" conversation concerning SawStop, the moderators have been busy trying to clean up this thread. Because some have answered an obvious out-of-line post that has been deleted, you may find your post, now, makes no sense. If you could go back and help out by editing your posts, it would be much appreciated. My old and slow dial-up is having a hard time keeping up.

Thanks,

John

[Per Swenson]

Every week a new thread with the same old same old.

So here goes.

Except for the Northfield table saw here...

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/tablesaws/tablesaws.htm

The sawstop is the best built North American table saw available on the

market today for less the 10 grand.

I own a sawstop. I owned a pm 66. I owned a uni.

I have worked out of the hall on every brand table saw from

junk to jewel, contractor to cabinet.

If you truly want to know why this is true and are not just asking over and

over again to stimulate the forum.....

I have a suggestion.

Use this feature here....

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/search.php

The rest of this seems like a exercise in futility.

Per

[David Weaver]

Every week a new thread with the same old same old.

So here goes.

Except for the Northfield table saw here...

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/tablesaws/tablesaws.htm

The sawstop is the best built North American table saw available on the

market today for less the 10 grand.

I own a sawstop. I owned a pm 66. I owned a uni.

I have worked out of the hall on every brand table saw from

junk to jewel, contractor to cabinet.

If you truly want to know why this is true and are not just asking over and

over again to stimulate the forum.....

I have a suggestion.

Use this feature here....

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/search.php

The rest of this seems like a exercise in futility.

Per

Whoa, Per. That's a REAL saw. Not sure I could roll it around in my garage, though. If the sawstop is the best for less than 10K, what is the going rate for one of the Northfield saws - base model?

[Peter Melanson]

As for the quality of this saw: yes seeing is believing but there are other things out there to help elaborate on the quality of this saw. I have read no less than 4 evaluations/ratings from the mainstream WW magazines that all rate the SS as a very good heavy duty quality saw. Since I am not a professional I have to rely on these types of reviews as well as many of the members of this forum that have much more experience. Everything I have seen about the saw (quality) has been positive.

Peter

[Jay Kilpatrick]

Whoa, Per. That's a REAL saw. Not sure I could roll it around in my garage, though. If the sawstop is the best for less than 10K, what is the going rate for one of the Northfield saws - base model?

NO. 4 NORTHFIELD TILTING ARBOR VARIETY SAW (standard) equipped with 5 HP heavy duty 3,600 RPM TEFC
arbor motor – magnetic starter with 110 volt at push button; plain table 35" x 44" – 191/2" rip gauge extension – 32"
rip capacity rack and pinion fence (32" capacity with double face box type fence) two dovetailed 60°-0°-60° mitre
gauges – filler strips – 11/8" arbor standard (1" or 11/4" optional – advise) (16" saw projects 4"; 18" saw 5") metal throat
plate. 16" Lexan guard, Warner electric brake.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$ 11,760.00:eek:

[Ellen Benkin]

I guess I'm confused. People complain about the cost of the SawStop, a well designed and made saw that puts safety first, but not about the cost of Festool equipment, which certainly works well but won't save my hand/fingers/life.

[Glen Blanchard]

I guess I'm confused. People complain about the cost of the SawStop, a well designed and made saw that puts safety first, but not about the cost of Festool equipment, which certainly works well but won't save my hand/fingers/life.

Ellen - You must have missed them. There are PLENTY of threads containing complaints about Festool pricing.

[David Weaver]

NO. 4 NORTHFIELD TILTING ARBOR VARIETY SAW (standard) equipped with 5 HP heavy duty 3,600 RPM TEFC
arbor motor – magnetic starter with 110 volt at push button; plain table 35" x 44" – 191/2" rip gauge extension – 32"
rip capacity rack and pinion fence (32" capacity with double face box type fence) two dovetailed 60°-0°-60° mitre
gauges – filler strips – 11/8" arbor standard (1" or 11/4" optional – advise) (16" saw projects 4"; 18" saw 5") metal throat
plate. 16" Lexan guard, Warner electric brake.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$ 11,760.00:eek:

:eek: also - but i can see why it would cost that much. I couldn't make something similar for that price. I'm impressed with everything on that place's page.

[Sandy Masquith]

I'm new to the board...and rather reluctant to post...but I do think the SS is a very well-built tool in it's own right. I've done the demo by pushing the hot dog into the saw. It's incredible. I have the Ridgid TS3650. The SS would be a thousand-fold step up for me. Keeping my fingers....well, that's priceless now, isn't it?

[Cody Colston]

Are there any current, reliable statistics available showing the percent of tablesaw users that suffer an amputation while using it?

The key word in the above question being "RELIABLE." I certainly wouldn't trust statistics from saw mfg's...any of them.

FWIW, I've already bought my last cabinet saw (not a Sawstop) but do find the technology fascinating. I also think that Gass alienated a bunch of potential customers with his attempt at legislating his product. That's the root cause of all the volatility surrounding Sawstop discussions, IMHO.
But, that doesn't really have a bearing on the quality of the saw or it's safety effectiveness.

[Andrew Williams]

www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia03/os/powersaw.pdf

You have to sift through the data to compute the specific info you are asking for

[Ron Hedrick]

I do not own a SS, but would sure like to. Money and space being the 2 reasons. Lost a piece of a finger a few years back in a fight with a Freud blade. My question is strictly out of curiosity, does anyone know if cabinet shops, etc. that replace their existing TS with a SS receive a better rate on their insurance? Again just curious. And yes the blade came through without a scratch.

[Gary Keedwell]

I do not own a SS, but would sure like to. Money and space being the 2 reasons. Lost a piece of a finger a few years back in a fight with a Freud blade. My question is strictly out of curiosity, does anyone know if cabinet shops, etc. that replace their existing TS with a SS receive a better rate on their insurance? Again just curious. And yes the blade came through without a scratch.

Ron That is a good question. You would think that you would get a break on your insurance....that will also help off-set the price of the SS.
Gary K.

[Don Bullock]

Don, They don't and I haven't - as I suspect you know - ...

Ken, that's exactly my point. You are commenting on a tool that you haven't seen or used.

I purchased my SawStop based on what I saw and on the recommendation of highly skilled craftsman like Per and Mark who own one. If people like Per can state, "The sawstop is the best built North American table saw available on the market today for less the 10 grand." then I feel that I made the right choice for me.

The responses you question were replys to a poster who is considering a SawStop. He asked the opinions from those of us who own a SwaStop. I'm sure, as those of us who have them get more time on them, we'll be able to add more information to people like him who are truly interested. Personally, I'm looking forward to that. Right now I'm still waiting for my Incra fence to arrive.

Going back to the original poster, I haven't yet seen the demonstration on TV that you reported. I'll be looking for it and appreciate the report.

[Gary Keedwell]

Opinions are like elbows....everybody has one. I would no sooner buy a Ford because a race car driver recommened it then I would buy a TS because a woodworker recomended it. Pro or not.
To most of us, a TS will be the most expensive purchase ever for our shops. The information out there is overwhelming to say the least. One has to look at the tool for the things that YOU consider important. Some think safety is every thing and look for equipment that is geared that way. Some think safety is the operator's responsibility and will look for performance features only.
Anyways .....to each his own.
Gary K.:)

[Dan Lee]

Heavier ?

Sawstop 530lbs (saw only)
PM2000 600lbs (saw only)

Ken
From the PM2000 manual, 600 is shipping weight and 540 is the net wt of the saw only. SS shipping weight is 640 and net weight of the saw only is 530

[TYLER WOOD]

I have a friend who has a ss and have worked on it myself. I love it. I have worked on a grizzley and delta uni both and this by far was a better machine in my amature opinion. I absolutely believe that the safety features will not make you more careless. Infact it made me more careful not wanting to even touch the blade to set if off on accident. Other times I may not be that carefull of even getting close to it. I feel the technology and the well built machine make it worth every bit of the money for one. If I personally had the money I would buy it over most every machine on the market. (of course baring the 10 grand and up machines)

[Belinda Barfield]

I do not own a SS, but would sure like to. Money and space being the 2 reasons. Lost a piece of a finger a few years back in a fight with a Freud blade. My question is strictly out of curiosity, does anyone know if cabinet shops, etc. that replace their existing TS with a SS receive a better rate on their insurance? Again just curious. And yes the blade came through without a scratch.


Ron That is a good question. You would think that you would get a break on your insurance....that will also help off-set the price of the SS.
Gary K.

Not trying to jump into the fray, just a response to your question. A friend has a laminate and solid surface countertop company. He was very interested in buying a couple of SSs for his shop - which is very large. He decided to wait until his financial picture was a little better. A new employee cut four fingers off, and they could not be saved.

So, to get to the answer, my friend was told that had he purchased the SS he probably would have gotten a break on his WC. Since the techonology is new, the break was questionable. It will probably be SOP for insurance companies in the near future is accident statistics support a break. However, now my friend's insurance rate has soared. He probably could have bought the SS's a lot easier than paying the increased rates.

[Joe Chritz]

That is a cool article with way more information than I could ever use.

On a quick review it appears that for Oct-Dec 2001 there was 14,300 injuries associated with tablesaws. Blade contact accounted for 86% or 12,300. Interestingly 96% of those occurred while the machine was still running.

It doesn't specifically designate amputations for the sample period but 9% for the year were amputations. That would work out to about 846 for the sample period.

For the whole year there was 38,000 table saw injuries, 9% of those are amputations or 3420.

Anyone do statistics for a living and can see how bad I figured?

Granted these are based on sampling of US hospitals but the figures would be statistically valid.

Joe

[Chris McDowell]

Sorry I had to get offline just after I posted last night. Looks like I missed a lot. Gary, I think maybe you misunderstood what I was trying to say. The sawstop is indeed a very well built and heavy saw. I got to look under the hood on one and not five feet away was a Powermatic.
Both saws are very fine saws and built extremely well. My point was there are so many debates about this saw and very few have included much information about the actual guts of the saw. I think sawstop might be getting a little shortchanged on the actual effort they made to construct a top of the line cabinet saw.
True the safety feature is great, but they spent a lot of time designing the saw itself not just the blade brake. That is why I suggested anyone interested go look at it . I would not want anyone purchasing anything just because I like it.
Chris McDowell

[Per Swenson]

Joe,

This is not fact, but from what I have seen in my day to day

contracting business those figures are much higher on the actual job sites.

The almost severed injuries, the ones where duct tape will fix it for now,

because I have no insurance or green card. So far, this early spring,

I have witnessed two framing nailer, through wounds.

With no emergency care. Just saying.

Two things besides. In my previous statement I meant

"North American Style"

And , I would feel truly horrible if either my old geezer or my 17

year old chip off the testosterone block, bled, cause I wanted to save

a nickel.

Per

[Gary Keedwell]

Sorry I had to get offline just after I posted last night. Looks like I missed a lot. Gary, I think maybe you misunderstood what I was trying to say. The sawstop is indeed a very well built and heavy saw. I got to look under the hood on one and not five feet away was a Powermatic.
Both saws are very fine saws and built extremely well. My point was there are so many debates about this saw and very few have included much information about the actual guts of the saw. I think sawstop might be getting a little shortchanged on the actual effort they made to construct a top of the line cabinet saw.
True the safety feature is great, but they spent a lot of time designing the saw itself not just the blade brake. That is why I suggested anyone interested go look at it . I would not want anyone purchasing anything just because I like it.
Chris McDowell
Chris, I wasn't referring to you, buddy. Someone else was talking about recommendations. Some people have a pet tool and think that everybody else should have his tool, too. I have a friend who still thinks Crapsmen tools are the best.....nuff said.:p I'm no head shrink....so I'll not attempt to explain the unexplainable ( for me);)
Gary K.

[Charles Wilson]

Someone had mentioned about the SS contractor saw and its avialability and price. I sent off and email to SS and got two replies the next day. They stated that the contractor SS was still in beta and was probably be released in late 2007. They were not sure what the exact price would be but would between $1200 and $1500.

I have never a SS saw up close and personal but I would have to agree that I would rather have all my digits as opposed to missing digits and the extra money in the bank.

My .02

Chuck

[Steve Jensen]

SawStop website claims there is a table saw accident every 9 minutes. They don't mention if each one results in an amputation.

[Steve Jensen]

Thanks for the replies from those who own this saw.

The SawStop website has some good information if you watch all the videos. I'm going to call the Woodcraft store here in Oklahoma City tomorrow to see if they have one, if they do, I'll go by and look at it. The SS website claims their saw has 25% (I think) more cast iron than other saws. I love the saftey feature and I haven't heard one bad thing about it.

I've about convinced myself this is the route I need to go with my new shop. Yes, it is a lot more money than I was going to spend, but I invested more in my plasma tv, so why in the world would I hesitate for second if it potentially saves a limb? The peace of mind would make my hobby much more enjoyable I think.

[Chris McDowell]

No problem Gary I wasn't upset. I was just afraid I didn't say what I meant plainly.
One of the reasons I am even considering a Sawstop is a local guy cut two of his fingers off a while back. To make matters worse it was one finger the first day and the second went the next.

[Gary Keedwell]

No problem Gary I wasn't upset. I was just afraid I didn't say what I meant plainly.
One of the reasons I am even considering a Sawstop is a local guy cut two of his fingers off a while back. To make matters worse it was one finger the first day and the second went the next.
:cool: Every thing Kewl here. Did the doctors take his 2nd finger off or did he go back to the saw the 2nd day and have another accident?:confused:

Happy Woodworking......and remember: if something just don't seem right....don't do it.;)
Gary K.

[Ken Milhinch]

Ken, that's exactly my point. You are commenting on a tool that you haven't seen or used.



Don,
I am not commenting on a saw that I "haven't seen or used". I am commenting on posters who make statements that the sawstop is "heavier and better built than the other saws".
We have established that the heavier comment is just plain wrong, so now I ask them to back up the "better built" comments with facts, instead of generalisations.

It may well be true, of course, but facts not rhetoric is needed.

[Ken Milhinch]

Ken
From the PM2000 manual, 600 is shipping weight and 540 is the net wt of the saw only. SS shipping weight is 640 and net weight of the saw only is 530
Gosh Dan, thanks for that. Woodworkers Supply list it as 750lbs shipping weight, Woodcraft list it as 700 lbs shipping weight. Who knows ?

[Curt Harms]

Here's an honest question from a beginner who got a kickback from a panel between 1/4th and 3/8th thickness - How do you feed that with a push stick and make sure it's flat against the surface of the table? Assuming you don't have a band saw (I don't). I don't know how to do it moderately safely - as evidenced by the internal lump at my belt line - without holding that piece down flat and reasonably close to the blade.

There are just some dangerous cuts where it's hard not to get your hands close to the blade (by close, I don't mean within a hair, but close enough that a kickback situation could pull your hands into the blade)
....
Hi David

This is exactly why I don't use a "push sticks", especially a long ones. I liken using the long skinny push sticks to using spaghetti to push stock, just too flexible. I made up some "push shoes" that hold the stock down as well as push forward. I feel like I have much better control over the stock with this. They're easy to make, or you can buy them. I regard them as disposable so just cut a new one out of a scrap of plywood every so often. I don't have them but many speak highly of the "board buddy" or "rip-straight" wheeled jigs.

Here are some examples:
www,woodshopdemos.com/safe-4.htm

I hope this gives You some idea.

Curt

[Joe Chritz]

Per is spot on correct. Again.

The figures in that study are ER treatments only.

Full amputations are most likely fairly accurate, since most of those will end up at an ER. I have no doubt the actually number of injuries are much higher. At least by one since I had a kickback once that should have been checked on.

In my regular job I see all kinds of injuries that should get treatment and don't.

Joe

[Ron Wessels]

... and I haven't heard one bad thing about it.I have. On another forum I frequent, someone pointed out that the blade brake feature means that every time you switch saw blades, you (potentially) have to adjust the brake to compensate for slight variations in saw blade diameter from eg. sharpening.

There's also the potential for mis-fire that seems to exist. In the Wood Magazine evaluation, it fired when they were cutting wet wood. As I recall, their comment was that they didn't bother testing the wood beforehand, so they felt it was their fault. I have to wonder what would happen with partially dried wood that is "ok" on the outside (where the test is done), but is "too wet" on the inside so the brake fires during the cut.

I'd be interested in any SawStop owners that can verify / refute these points.

[Glen Blanchard]

I have. On another forum I frequent, someone pointed out that the blade brake feature means that every time you switch saw blades, you (potentially) have to adjust the brake to compensate for slight variations in saw blade diameter from eg. sharpening.



Well, the only 10" blade I use is a Forrest WW II, so I don't know how likely it is that the brake would need to be micro-adjusted when switching from one blade to the next, but the adjustment is made in a matter of seconds. No big deal.




There's also the potential for mis-fire that seems to exist. In the Wood Magazine evaluation, it fired when they were cutting wet wood. As I recall, their comment was that they didn't bother testing the wood beforehand, so they felt it was their fault. I have to wonder what would happen with partially dried wood that is "ok" on the outside (where the test is done), but is "too wet" on the inside so the brake fires during the cut.



I don't know how "wet" "wet" would be, but I have never had this happen. Easy to test first, or bypass the brake completely if there is a question.

I have, however, tripped the brake when the blade came in contact with an aluminum miter gauge fence when doing a bevel cut. My fault entirely. Man, that happens F-A-S-T!!

[Greg Peterson]

At this juncture in time, there are many debates surrounding SS. Good arguments exist on either side, and obviously those perspectives are supported in the market place. For now, I am merely a spectator in the SS debates. I have no pending TS purchase, at least within the next year or two, so I really don't have a dog in any fight. But I do find the myriad of perspectives informative, useful and in most cases valid, hence my interest in following SS discussions

The younger generations that are coming into the craft/trade/hobby will ultimately decide the scope, scale and acceptance of SS technology.

Getting SS into multiple markets is important to SS and its technology. The technology is still a novel idea. However, as it trickles down from craftsman/tradesmen grade tooling to hobbyist grade tooling, the technology could eventually become standard equipment or an add-on option.

There exists similarities in the automotive industry. Once seat belts were available, it did not take long for them to become standard (albeit mandatory) equipment. Of course this is a bit like comparing an apple to an orange, but in the broader view this is a fair analogy. As SS technology moves from the novel to the ubiquitous, the cost will also decline to the point where not having the technology built into the tool will not offer a competitive marketplace advantage.

Adapting SS technology to a contractor type saw is evidence that this evolution is under way. But, at the price point reported, $1,200 - $1,500, I think market penetration will be very gradual.

[Dan Lee]

Well, the only 10" blade I use is a Forrest WW II, so I don't know how likely it is that the brake would need to be micro-adjusted when switching from one blade to the next, but the adjustment is made in a matter of seconds. No big deal.


Glen
I have older WWIIs that have been sharpened 3-4 times and a new one, the older ones are more than 1/8" smaller in diameter.
I had the brake adjusted for the older ones and when I installed the newer one the brake interfered with the blade
However as you said the adjustment is fast and no big deal
Dan

[Andrew Williams]

FWIW.... the rep at Sawstop told me that the blade to brake clearance should be the width of a nickel. I don't know exactly how much within tolerances that has to be for the system to work properly.

[Peter Melanson]

The first time I turned my saw it wouldn't start because my blade was little to far away from the break. I adjusted in about 2 seconds and it worked great. I'm not sure exaclty how it new the blade beyond the recomennded distance. The reason for this is so that if it does fire it will work properly and a quick as possible. the adjustement is no big deal at all, and it is very quick and easy. The inconvienence nothing and I wouldn't worry about it.

Peter

[Don Bullock]

Ken
From the PM2000 manual, 600 is shipping weight and 540 is the net wt of the saw only. SS shipping weight is 640 and net weight of the saw only is 530

I'd like to point out, since this is an area of contention for some reason, the SS weight is without the fence and extension table that come with the PM. No matter, they are very close to the same weight.


Don,
I am not commenting on a saw that I "haven't seen or used". I am commenting on posters who make statements that the sawstop is "heavier and better built than the other saws".
We have established that the heavier comment is just plain wrong, so now I ask them to back up the "better built" comments with facts, instead of generalisations.

It may well be true, of course, but facts not rhetoric is needed.

Ken, my apologies if I mis-spoke or misunderstood your intentions. I just found it strange that someone who hasn't even seen or used the saw was jumping into a thread where the original poster was asking questions of those of us who have a SS. As for rhetoric, yes there has been a lot on many sides of this issue. I stand by my my decision to purchase one partly because people like Mark and Per, two of our most experienced and best craftsmen on this site, state that it is the best table saw on the market. Now, whether it is or not, as you state, only time will tell, but a hobbiest like me, or someone who hasn't used a SS, isn't going to be the one who decides the issue. I'll leave that question, like I already have, to those who truly know their trade and the marketplace.

I think that Greg Peterson has made one of the best statements in reguard to the issue at hand, will SS be an accepted technology and survive in the marketplace, that I have read. Only time, not our rhetoric will tell what will happen.

[Jules Dominguez]

I got a Sawstop recently. I'm an old f... and have some tremor in my hands, so when I went to do the dime test, I had to use a square to help get the dime to stand up on the table with the saw not running.
When I turned the saw on, the dime didn't even quiver. That's smooth. The saw's mounted on the mobile base that Sawstop sells as an accessory.
If you go look at one, ask them to take the insert off of the table (you have to remove a screw) and look down at the works. Lots of cast iron. Put your fingers under the cast iron table tops. Lots of iron. Get down and look inside the motor door and the belt door. You get what you pay for.

[Chris McDowell]

No the doctors didn't remove it. The poor guy went back to the shop and cut off another finger on the same hand. The customer was the one who told me about it. He felt guilty about it, but I told him wasn't his fault. He just ordered cabinets not built them.
I think the guy is out of the cabinet making business now. I just hate to hear of anyone being mamed for life. I'm sure the price of a couple of blade cartridges and blades look pretty small compared to what he has gone through.

Chris

[Glen Blanchard]

I got a Sawstop recently. I'm an old f... and have some tremor in my hands, so when I went to do the dime test, I had to use a square to help get the dime to stand up on the table with the saw not running.
When I turned the saw on, the dime didn't even quiver. That's smooth. The saw's mounted on the mobile base that Sawstop sells as an accessory.

Are you saying that the SawStop brand mobile base is now available???

[Dennis Putnam]

What happens if the blade(s) is a stacked dado? Can you even use one with a stacked dado? If not then one needs another table saw anyway. The way that brake works and the way a stacked dado is put together, it seems like there might be dado shards flying around when it slams down. I think that precludes using a dado (or other attachments) in one, doesn't it?

[Don Bullock]

I got a Sawstop recently. I'm an old f... and have some tremor in my hands, so when I went to do the dime test, I had to use a square to help get the dime to stand up on the table with the saw not running.
When I turned the saw on, the dime didn't even quiver. That's smooth. The saw's mounted on the mobile base that Sawstop sells as an accessory.
If you go look at one, ask them to take the insert off of the table (you have to remove a screw) and look down at the works. Lots of cast iron. Put your fingers under the cast iron table tops. Lots of iron. Get down and look inside the motor door and the belt door. You get what you pay for.

Great post Jules. That's information dealing with the quality that has been left out of this thread. Compared to my old Craftsman saw that I gave away when I bought my SS, the iron in this saw is amazing. I guess a lot of us old f...s are getting them. I guess, depending on the posters here and elsewhere, we've either gotten wise with age or more senile by choosing to buy one.

[Glen Blanchard]

What happens if the blade(s) is a stacked dado? Can you even use one with a stacked dado? If not then one needs another table saw anyway. The way that brake works and the way a stacked dado is put together, it seems like there might be dado shards flying around when it slams down. I think that precludes using a dado (or other attachments) in one, doesn't it?

The SS is designed to work with an 8" stacked dado. It requires swapping of the regular brake cartridge with one designed for dado use.

[Don Bullock]

What happens if the blade(s) is a stacked dado? Can you even use one with a stacked dado? If not then one needs another table saw anyway. The way that brake works and the way a stacked dado is put together, it seems like there might be dado shards flying around when it slams down. I think that precludes using a dado (or other attachments) in one, doesn't it?

Dennis, there is a brake cartridge and zero clearance insert available for dado sets. It's wider than the standard brake cartridge. No, I haven't seen a demonstration using it.

BTW -- To answer some comments about cost if the system is tripped by an accident, according to the owner's manual if the brake cartridge is sent to SS so that they can download data stored in it, SS will replace the cartridge free. That's one freebee I'd rather not collect on.

[Dennis Putnam]

Dennis, there is a brake cartridge and zero clearance insert available for dado sets. It's wider than the standard brake cartridge. No, I haven't seen a demonstration using it.
Interesting. How big of a pain is it to set up for varying widths? It seems like setup times would get out of hand, especially for one cut. Also I'd still be concerned with flying debris when that brake closes on a dado since it is not solid and there is lots of room for the chippers to break as the outer blades are bent by the brake. Unless the dado set is special for that saw.

[Don Bullock]

Dennis, like I said, I haven't seen a video of a dado set being tested. With that said, I have seen a post where someone did save a thumb in and accident with a dado set installed in his SS. He even posted a picture of his thumb and the dadao set he was using at the time. As I recall, he was using a GRR-Ripper and hit an internal knot in the plywood he was dadoing and the GRR-Ripper tilted forward sending his thumb into the blade.

As with any tool, user safety proceedures will protect the user much better than a brake on the blade.