Band Saw vs. Table Saw… heart of the shop.

[Paul Simmel]

I recently purchased a very nice 3hp cabinet saw… for panels mainly because I’m going to do a kitchen. I’m happy to have it, but not crazy about it.

This is my second shop… new house under construction now, shop 75% up.

My first shop was more or less dedicated to solid lumber furniture. Did not have a TS.

With a band saw, jointer and planer, there was little I could not do.

I will still rip all solid lumber on the BS, joint and plane. There may now be occasion to rip narrow stock on the TS for convenience. An example being, nipping off shaped edges for smaller trim moldings, etc.

All in all, all my dimensioning was always done, and will continue to be done, starting with the BS, then jointer then planning.

A jointed squared-up piece of stock is going to be more true than anything I can get from a TS. Stresses released after ripping (on either machine) will likely result in jointing anyway. BS ripping (just as straight but with saw marks) releases the same stress. Jointer trues the piece while removing saw marks. So we all cut our pieces a bit oversized anyway to compensate.

So-called glue edges from TS ripping/combo blades never did anything for me because in all likelihood after that rip the jointer will need to perform anyway… though I do have two Forrest blades… I have them for quality/longevity reasons... panels and such.

I have a cheap Jet 18”, 1.5 hp BS. Nothing to brag about. Though underpowered, I like the saw. With a 1” blade I can rip 1.5” stock as fast as I can lean into it with no fear whatsoever. I could care less about the smoothness of the cut.

Actually I could go on and on about the virtues of the BS, but in my shop it is the heart. The TS is a nice addition, and as I said I like it. It will help. But it is not the heart.

(I know there are, but I will ask anyway) Are there other BS-heart shops out there?

[John Schreiber]

I have been thinking that way myself. A bandsaw and a guided rail system could make a table saw unnecessary. The table saw does seem to be one of the most dangerous tools and making it safer by going with a SawStop or a slider brings the cost way up. By avoiding a table saw, I could spend more on a top notch bandsaw.

[Roy McQuay]

I read an article years ago, that British shops normally have a bandsaw as their most used tool. I don't know if that still applies today though. I have a Jet ts and the Jet 18" bs, but I use my scms more than either of them. I do use my ts for dadoes.

[Paul Simmel]

John,

But I am a true believer that the jointer is not a separate tool from the planer. The jointer and planer are truly one machine (in my mind). Panel glue ups may be okay with a TS application, but I still would joint the edges no matter how nice the edges looked, if the piece was bowed after sending it through a $100-plus blade!

Years ago before I invested in machinery, and thus learned how to use it, I used to purchase lumber from BORG like places, culling through for straight pieces. I can’t tell you how many projects… I just “pulled” the bowed pieces together with clamps resisting the stresses.

What a waste of time back then.

Rip your straight pieces for panel glue up with the BS, joint the edges and they are straight after ripping stresses, and you are all set.

The jointer is a marvelous machine. With a light, finger-feel, you take the bowed and or twisted stock, and straighten/square/edge.

For those who know what I saying here, and use the jointer for squaring and straightening as a priority (aside from just face leveling) I think the BS makes a good argument.

[Matt Lentzner]

Another reason to go with a bandsaw centric shop is to save space. The TS is the biggest space waster there is. I guess the counter to that is you lose that advantage by needing a jointer. But you'd need a jointer anyway if you were serious about making fine furniture. etc.

I haven't used a bandsaw since junior high school, but that's my plan. I already have a Bosch 4000 for those things you can only do on a TS and a SCMS. My first "big iron" machine will be a BS. Soon followed by a planer and jointer.

We'll see if it all pans out. I can always buy a "real" TS later. :)

Matt

[Paul Simmel]

>>> But you'd need a jointer anyway if you were serious about making fine furniture. etc.

A man after my heart! <smile>

Matt,

>>> bandsaw centric shop

Perfect use of the language.

[Lance Norris]

Paul... I have a 3HP Unisaw, and love it. That said, if I didnt have it, and had only my jointer, planer, and my 2 bandsaws, I would be able to get by nicely. I was trained by my father and later in high school on a table saw. I think most, if not all, here in the U.S. were trained that way also. I have a small shop and have wondered what it would be like without a table saw. Both of my bandsaws are 14", so rips of larger widths could be done with a circular saw and edge guides. This is how I break up large sheets anyhow, my shop is in my basement and I have narrow steps. I think without a table saw, I would be able to do anything I can now do, maybe just a little slower. I remember reading an article in Fine Woodworking or Popular Woodworking (I cant find it) about the authors 5 essential power tools. He started the article with a disclamer that he knew people would blast him for his opinion that a table saw wasn't on his list of 5. His list was the band saw, compound miter saw, jointer, router, and I forget the 5th.

[Lance Norris]

Roy Mcquay said "I do use my ts for dadoes."
Remember the router is also excellent for dadoes.

[Paul Simmel]

Lance,

I’m beginning to like my TS. It is a great addition to the shop. I <will> be using it for dados on the cabinet panels. And another thing I am very impressed with, is the quality of the cross cuts. I use a RAS for cross cutting at its own station, but the wiring isn’t there yet. Yesterday I needed to make a few cuts and used the TS.

I use my shaper for many “cuts” (rabbets and bevels, slots, etc.). But I can see potential advantages using the TS, especially on thicker stock.

It’s good to have… but again, it will not be used for ripping which is why, I think, many people own a TS.

[Andrew Williams]

My workbench is definitely the heart of my shop, but the TS gets used more than the BS.

[Loren Hedahl]

I've always wondered about the lifespan - cost factor of bandsaw blades vs circular saw blades. Does anyone here have an educated guess on that?

Loren

[Ed Blough]

Lance,

I’m beginning to like my TS. It is a great addition to the shop. I <will> be using it for dados on the cabinet panels. And another thing I am very impressed with, is the quality of the cross cuts. I use a RAS for cross cutting at its own station, but the wiring isn’t there yet. Yesterday I needed to make a few cuts and used the TS.

I use my shaper for many “cuts” (rabbets and bevels, slots, etc.). But I can see potential advantages using the TS, especially on thicker stock.

It’s good to have… but again, it will not be used for ripping which is why, I think, many people own a TS.

Paul
Let my ignorance be seen but why not use your TS for ripping? I would think it would be faster than a Bandsaw, if done properly it is safe.
Why use a bandsaw? the only advantage I can think of is a narrow kerf but I would think the speed gained would be a payback.

I have a bandsaw and I like it but I can produce much straighter cuts on the table saw. I still run them through the jointer but I usually only have to make one or two at most passes. If you cut on a bandsaw I would think you would have to cut wide of the line and then joint it a number of times. By then you would lose as much wood as cutting it on the TS and jointing it once.

[John Fry]

Hmmm!

I do a lot of shop sawn veneer work, so I have a dedicated 24" band saw with a power feeder for that purpose, I have a second 14" bandsaw for cutting around turns. I use my table saw everyday. To me, and the way I am accustomed to working, a finely tuned table saw with accurate sleds is probably my most valuable tool. For ripping,for accurate panel crosscutting, and for repeatable dadoes, I can't imagine being without it. Likewise, I can't imagine being without my band saws either.

Using alternate methods for almost any procedure (and there are many), I could probably get by without several of my tools, but I sure wouldn't want to.

[Art Mann]

I am glad you have worked out a system for ripping lumber to width that you are happy with. However, I don't think you will get many people to agree that a bandsaw is a very appropriate tool for ripping dimensioned lumber to a precise width. It may be a workable, if clumsy, substitute if that is all you have to work with.

[Paul Simmel]

Ed,

I can usually remove the saw marks in one pass on the jointer.

On my measly 1.5 hp BS, I can push the stock through very quickly with no fear.

Very little dust.

Outside the line… for me doesn’t matter because the stock is going to the planer after jointing anyway. I dimension my stock (edge to edge) on the planer.

Loren,

BS blades are cheap, and for ripping .75” > 1.5” stock you don’t need anything expensive.

-=-=-=-

This is not a “my way is better than your way” consideration. It is a “my way is what’s worked for me” consideration. There are plenty of BS concentric shops out there… plus, as a side note, there are a lot of BS mills out there too.

Art,

I am not ripping it to width. I am slicing up pieces to be prepared on the jointer and then to the planer... that is where it is dimensioned.

[Charles Wilson]

This is interesting.

I was looking at purchasing a TS but maybe you have changed my mind. Is there any other information that you could give me?

Maybe a rail system and a BS is the way to go? Any particular considerations/recommendations as to BS qualities to look for?

Chuck

[gary rogers]

I have two bandsaws, a 14 and an 18 inch. The 18 I leave set up with a 1 inch blade and do most of my ripping with that. I intended to sell the smaller one when I bought the 18 but it is a pain changing blades so I leave the smaller on set up with a narrower blade for curves. I would much rather rip on the bandsaw than the table saw. I have never been able to consistently get the "glue line" rips on the table saw even with the $100.00 super duper ripping blades so I just get close on the bandsaw and finish up on the jointer and planer.

[Allen Bookout]

To me, and the way I am accustomed to working, a finely tuned table saw with accurate sleds is probably my most valuable tool.

Using alternate methods for almost any procedure (and there are many), I could probably get by without several of my tools, but I sure wouldn't want to.

SAME HERE!

[Paul Simmel]

Chuck,

I have an 18” Jet with a 1” blade. I regret that it only has 1.5 hp, but it still works just more than fine. I will probably upgrade the motor to at least 2 hp, when/if mine pukes. 3 or 4 years ago I paid about $1,100. There are higher hp models out now.

Do NOT get a 14” for this.

Also, I have two Shop Fox roller tables… something of the like is a must to support stock. I tend to rip 10’ > 16’ boards.

One example of what I will be doing soon:

I’m building our house. 3 car attached shop almost set up now. House is a framed shell, windows/doors in, shingled roof, house wrap.

The front porch ceiling is approx 50’ x 6’. I’m going to mill 5/8” V-groove T&G knotty pine for it. Here’s the plan:

Stack of stickered 14 ‘ 2 x 12’s.

1) Rip them into thirds (BS)
2) Split them in half (BS)
3) Arrange about 20 pieces on edge, clamp together for and aft.
4) Run through planer.
5) Flip, run through planer again.
6) Unbundle and plane BS marks off one side.
7) Flip, plane “factory” surface off.
8) Shape ends for T&G.
9) Shape lengths.
10) Done.

Stiles and rails, face frames… same process except I will joint these smaller pieces before running them through the planer.

All dimensioning is done via the jointer as a pre-step, and planer combination of operations. The BS is for slicing and dicing to a rough dimension. I would never rely on a TS rip/cut for dimensioning. There’s no way one can get a repeatable dimension better than a planer… so for me…

… TS ripping is just another means to slice and dice… and not my preferred method. To me, slicing and dicing is just that. But it is a pre-step <only>.

My BS has zero travel, ripping or resawing.

Art,

>>> It may be a workable, if clumsy, substitute if that is all you have to work with.

Put another way, when measuring lumber for cutting, I always try to estimate how much will be milled off afterward for a straight, square board. Considering one will never have a straight board after ripping it or resawing it, why would I care how “slick” the cut is?

I have a fully equipped shop, with a new Grizzly 3 hp 1023, BTW. Given the choice, I would never run all that 2 x 12 stock through it…

If the above method is “clumsy”, it is not because it is all that I have to work with… in all due respect.

[J.R. Rutter]

Great thread! You are right on in your analysis of rough cut / joint / plane for most solid wood prep. Since I got a shelix head planer, we run all straight finished edges on it up to about 4" wide without fear of tearout ruining the finished edge. Shaped edges like door stile and rail get final dimension on the shaper while being profiled, so we don't joint that edge.

It is easy to get mentally locked into a common way of doing things when often there are other options that work as well or better in some situations. I need to get a real fence on my bandsaw, one that functions like a typical table saw fence with accurate scale.

Paul, my 20" Yates American bandsaw only has a 1.5 HP motor, too!

I do like using a table saw with power feeder for ripping though, and I deal with panels, either glued solid wood or plywood on a regular basis. And I get acceptable glue lines off of the table saw - but we use wide boards for panels and simple cutting off the non jointed edge, so aren't getting the bowing that you sometimes get with typical kiln dried stock where you are splitting it. (Wow, how's that for a run-on sentence?!)

Thanks for your post, I'll be getting on that BS fence soon.

[Jack Young]

Paul-

I come down, with Schrieber, on the notion that a guided rail system and a band saw can largely replace the need for a table saw and with a much smaller footprint, and with enhanced safety. But that's likely appealing mostly to those just setting up shop and who haven't gotten committed to the more traditional TS centered method. In any event, with a guided-rail set-up, 3 hp bandsaw and 15" planer, I'm amazed at how well it works for both solid and sheet goods without touching a TS, or even a jointer, for that matter. The planer, with a simple jig, can flatten warped, cupped, etc. boards as well as thickness them.

Lance, the article you can't find, "My Five Esstential Power Tools" by Gary Rogowski, is in a compiled "The New Best of FWW" sleeve of five books, each on a different topic. Rogowski's article is in the volume entitled "Small Woodworking Shops." It's re-publication there doesn't say when it was first published.


Jack

[Paul Simmel]

JR,

>>> Paul, my 20" Yates American bandsaw only has a 1.5 HP motor, too!

Sweet!

>>> but we use wide boards for panels and simple cutting off the non jointed edge, so aren't getting the bowing that you sometimes get with typical kiln dried stock

Sounds to me like a great system for panels, and I’d do the same with a power feed.

>>> Shaped edges like door stile and rail get final dimension on the shaper while being profiled, so we don't joint that edge.

Exactly. Your infeed stock dimension is not at all critical beyond what your shaping/planing source can handle, and dimensioned material is the result of your machining process.

-=-=-=-

For those who may disagree, on the shaper, if a fence is set to 3” to the outside of the cutter… with a power feeder holding the piece against the fence, a 3.25” piece run through will be 3” wide on the final outfeed… same exactly as planing vertical… but with a profile on the outfeed side.

-=-=-=-

JR, very good point about people being locked into certain methods.

I always wanted a good TS, but opted for other machinery due to space and funds. As I look back now, I am glad I used and learned to do without. I have it now, after the fact. It’s a great machine, but my essential methods have not changed and I think wisely so. IMO, I was forced to properly learn to use the jointer and planer… not a bad thing as these tools are the essential, foundational tools for fine woodworking.

[Jim Becker]

I need to chime in that Paul is absolutely correct that if you are going to base your shop with a band saw in the focus, definitely invest in a more substantial machine than you might if it was just for occasional scrolling. It's not just about power; the beefier machines have more weight for better stability, larger throat capacities and better visibility due to their naturally larger "re-saw height". Many of them have extra safety features, too, such as micro-switch interlocks and foot brakes. And the extra power is nice, too...

[Tim Dorcas]

My workshop started with a pretty basic tablesaw. I got a bandsaw about year after I got my TS. To be honest I wouldn't do without either.

[Jamie Hargrave]

Does shop size come into consideration here? My shop is a 1 car garage 10 ft by 19 ft. And I have to share that with some storage. I have a table saw and no bandsaw right now, and its amazing how much of that floor space is taken up by the table saw. I have been toying with the idea of getting rid of the table saw and buying a bandsaw. I think it would give me alot of space back, and if as alot of you are saying, the bandsaw can do pretty much the same job as a table saw, it seems to make sense. Any thoughts? Has anyone gone this way because of a space issue?

[Joe Jensen]

I recently purchased a very nice 3hp cabinet saw… for panels mainly because I’m going to do a kitchen. I’m happy to have it, but not crazy about it.

This is my second shop… new house under construction now, shop 75% up.

My first shop was more or less dedicated to solid lumber furniture. Did not have a TS.

With a band saw, jointer and planer, there was little I could not do.

I will still rip all solid lumber on the BS, joint and plane. There may now be occasion to rip narrow stock on the TS for convenience. An example being, nipping off shaped edges for smaller trim moldings, etc.

All in all, all my dimensioning was always done, and will continue to be done, starting with the BS, then jointer then planning.

A jointed squared-up piece of stock is going to be more true than anything I can get from a TS. Stresses released after ripping (on either machine) will likely result in jointing anyway. BS ripping (just as straight but with saw marks) releases the same stress. Jointer trues the piece while removing saw marks. So we all cut our pieces a bit oversized anyway to compensate.

So-called glue edges from TS ripping/combo blades never did anything for me because in all likelihood after that rip the jointer will need to perform anyway… though I do have two Forrest blades… I have them for quality/longevity reasons... panels and such.

I have a cheap Jet 18”, 1.5 hp BS. Nothing to brag about. Though underpowered, I like the saw. With a 1” blade I can rip 1.5” stock as fast as I can lean into it with no fear whatsoever. I could care less about the smoothness of the cut.

Actually I could go on and on about the virtues of the BS, but in my shop it is the heart. The TS is a nice addition, and as I said I like it. It will help. But it is not the heart.

(I know there are, but I will ask anyway) Are there other BS-heart shops out there?

I've never been comfortable that if I rip on the Bandsaw, and joint, that the board will be as parallel as if I rip with the TS. With my TS, I RARELY need to joint after ripping, and I've very picky on glue joints. If I'm gluing up a top or panel, I do joint all edges, but if I'm cutting rails and styles, I don't joint the edges off the table saw. I would for sure with the BS. Seems like using a BS only would force a joint on every cut. Is this your experience?...joe

[Jim Newman]

I have the top of the line General 10" TS and with my Forrest blade and Paralok II Fence have no trouble getting glue line rips. Back about 13 years ago when I bought my table saw, band saws were not as refined as they are today, so the TS got the vote in my book and it is still an incredibly versatile machine, but a bandsaw has its place. Don't you just love life....no right or wrong way really....just what works for you!

[Scot Ferraro]

I have a very nice bandsaw and a very nice table saw and I love working with them both. If I had to choose, it would be the bandsaw though since it is a much more versatile machine (IMHO) -- you can rip, cross-cut, make all manner of joints (i.e. tenons, dovetails and as we saw in Mark's Zebra table thread, large miter cuts too) not to mention curves and scrolling cuts. You can resaw boards that are larger than 6-7 inches (the limit on most 10 inch table saws) and as others have said, the footprint is much smaller too. If I had to build a shop again, I would buy the biggest jointer and planer I could afford along with a nice BS and I think that I could make just about anything. If I built mostly cabinets and used a lot of sheet goods, then I might rethink this and buy a TS instead.

I am in the middle of making new kitchen cabinets and I am using 6/4 and 8/4 rough cherry -- I have fallen in love with my BS again and I could not have done the prep as easily without it. All but the final milling was done with the jointer/planer/BS (and a jigsaw to make the initial cross-cuts). Flipping the peices on side and running them through the planer would have eliminated the need to even rip them to width on the table saw.

As with anything in woodworking, there are lots of ways to accomplish the task at hand and in the end, it is what tools you have and how you use them and what you feel comfortable in using that matters.

Thanks,

Scot

[Paul Johnstone]

Does shop size come into consideration here? My shop is a 1 car garage 10 ft by 19 ft. And I have to share that with some storage. I have a table saw and no bandsaw right now, and its amazing how much of that floor space is taken up by the table saw. I have been toying with the idea of getting rid of the table saw and buying a bandsaw. I think it would give me alot of space back, and if as alot of you are saying, the bandsaw can do pretty much the same job as a table saw, it seems to make sense. Any thoughts? Has anyone gone this way because of a space issue?

Keep in mind that while you can get good rips on a bandsaw, it is not an easy thing to do. It requires skill and practice (which I'm sure the OP has invested in himself).

For me, there's no question that the Table Saw is easier to rip. Larger table surface. No need to adjust for bandsaw drift. I like the lower bandsaw table for ripping as well. I don't see how the bandsaw is that much safer.. either will hurt your hand if you put it in the blade. IMO, it's possible to eliminate kickback dangers on the TS with common sense.

It's just so easy to set a tablesaw fence and rip.. Really, very little skill required, just some common sense needed for safety.

Sure, if all you do is solid wood, you can get buy without a tablesaw, but I don't see the logic in getting rid of a tablesaw if you already have a good one. Put it on a mobile base if you have to.. If there's no room to push it against the wall when not in use, you probably don't have enough room to walk in there :)

[Wilbur Pan]

Does shop size come into consideration here? My shop is a 1 car garage 10 ft by 19 ft. And I have to share that with some storage. I have a table saw and no bandsaw right now, and its amazing how much of that floor space is taken up by the table saw. I have been toying with the idea of getting rid of the table saw and buying a bandsaw. I think it would give me alot of space back, and if as alot of you are saying, the bandsaw can do pretty much the same job as a table saw, it seems to make sense. Any thoughts? Has anyone gone this way because of a space issue?
My shop is a basement shop exactly the same size as your garage, and I went with a bandsaw. My other machinery includes a drill press, combo jointer/planer machine, and a lathe. I decided that I had the room for either a bandsaw, or a tablesaw, but not both. I figured that using a bandsaw I could cut curved lines, but I would not be able to do so on a tablesaw.

I do wind up jointing a lot of rips that I do on the bandsaw, but many times I would be using a handplane to clean up that cut anyway. A lot depends on the blade you are using. Last night I was ripping 8/4 white oak on my bandsaw with a 3/4" 2-3 TPI blade, and that surface was rough enough that I jointed each rip. However, I then switched to a 1/4" 6 TPI blade for cutting some curves, and the surface was much smoother. For straight cuts in plywood or stock that is 3/4-1" thick, I have a 3/4" 10 TPI blade that leaves a cut surface nearly as smooth as a cut off a tablesaw.

I think a lot of people try to do too much with only one blade on a bandsaw, when you really need to have different blades for different purposes.

The main limitation of a bandsaw that I have run into is doing a cut in the middle of a very wide board, such as a crosscut in long stock, or a cut down the middle of a 4x8 sheet of plywood. I've used a circular saw to get close for these cuts, and then taken the piece to the bandsaw for cleanup.

Finally, the bandsaw is safer than a tablesaw. Kickback on a tablesaw can happen to anyone, no matter how careful you are. Sometimes the wood just has other ideas.

[Mark Singer]

In my mind you need both... Rips and sizing is done on the cabinet saw ....resawing , some sizing and joinery is done at the bandsaw.. Chair parts at the bandsaw... I personally need both and when I am working, they are both being used. I usually start at the joiner and cabinet saw to insure square cuts and accuracy.. using my sled parts are cross cut at the cabinet saw... Finer details and joinery...tenons, bridals, large scale cross cuts...3" or bigger in depth are done cleanly here.

[Rob Millard]

I am glad you have worked out a system for ripping lumber to width that you are happy with. However, I don't think you will get many people to agree that a bandsaw is a very appropriate tool for ripping dimensioned lumber to a precise width. It may be a workable, if clumsy, substitute if that is all you have to work with.

Art,
I for one will agree.
My little cheap Jet 14" bandsaw makes quick and accurate rips. I can't remember the last time I used my tablesaw, but it has been at least 6 weeks. I've used my bandsaw nearly every day in that time. For my kind of work, in solid wood, I give up nothing in the way of productivity, by using the bandsaw almost exclusively.
Rob Millard

[Ken Milhinch]

Let's face it, both machines are excellent for what they are designed to do. Using one to do the work of both can only be a compromise.

[Gary Keedwell]

I have both but use the TS 95º of the time. There are times that only the BS will do the job right.:)
Gary K.

[Doug Shepard]

I never would have considered going BS only with my previous 14" BS. The MM16 makes this seem much more feasible, and I sure could use the space that the TS occupies. But for cutting sheet stuff, I think I'd miss the TS too much. I do occasionally use clamp on guides (the old original Tru-Grip clamps) and circular saw to break sheets down slightly, but for repeat width cuts, it's hard to beat the speed that the TS gives you. Dados and rabbets are another area where I'd miss the TS. I do often do those with a router, but that's usually when I need a stopped cut. The TS is just faster for me, not having to do multiple router passes to get to depth, and then there's the dust collection. Even with no DC hooked up, at least a large percentage of the dust ends up in the saw cabinet rather than the router throwing chips every which way (I know - another excuse to get a Festool router:D ). I think I'd rather rip on the TS too, even though either saw needs handplane or jointer cleanup afterwards. I do like the smaller kerf of the BS for crosscutting (size permitting) or doing miters though. It often means you can get grain/figure continuation going around the corners on pieces. The bigger TS kerf usually results in a slight offshift in the grain lines. With a better guided rail setup, I think I could function nicely without a TS but I'm just not ready to take that leap. Space constraints could always change that though.

[Mandell Mann]

I would think the purpose for using the BS for ripping would be to save your wood from being wasted by the larger TS blade kerf. If one is using the BS and jointing in between each cut, wouldn't it be more of a waste than using the BS than the TS? I would probably use the BS for ripping larger pieces of wood (4x4?) down to desired sizes and then square them up on the TS along with the jointer.

[Matt Lentzner]

How about a band saw and a panel saw?

[Justin James]

I did a couple of on-site cabinet builds using a bandsaw (a little bitty Darra James that I tried repeatedly to buy) and a panel saw/router instead of a tablesaw. It might be a viable option for a small (or specialized) shop.

[Von Bickley]

Everybody has a different type of shop and they do different type of work. The TS has always been the heart of my shop and I'm sure it will always be. I can see where some people would not need a TS, but that's not for me.

[Paul Simmel]

Somewhere there’s been a serious twist from the original theme; namely that for slicing and dicing raw or rough lumber, a BS is the main tool in my shop. Now it appears the discussion has spun into panel ripping, etc., etc.

A cabinet maker is going to have a TS or some sort of panel saw at their heart because he will do mostly panel work. A TS will rip and dimension face frame stock very well… because it doesn’t have to be perfect anyway. The TS will rip already dimensioned solid stock for raised/flat panel glue ups, etc.

I stated originally that I did not do panel work (sheet goods), but solid lumber furniture… but only now do I have a kitchen coming up, and for this specifically I have purchased a TS after many years. I also stated that I do not dislike my TS now that I have it, that I can see certain advantages having one in the shop. So I don’t think I said that I wouldn’t ever have a TS, or that the BS is betting than a TS.

The concept is simple. For slicing up stock as a prep for jointing and planning, the BS is my tool. And since my sense of power in the shop stems from the ability to saw whatever I want, in dang near any dimension, the BS is my tool.

Also I stated that I joint my stock after ripping because stresses are released, so I oversize some of my cuts to compensate for this process. Face frames can be twisted back to straight using the sheet goods carcass as a reference with pocket screws, dados, or biscuits. And there is nothing wrong with this.

I dimension my stock on the jointer and planer… the most accurate being the planer… I can dial it in to within a few thousandths.

I gave my 14” BS away to a good friend. The 14” was a learning experience. Though I attempted to use the 14” in the same manner, it was under powered.

For me, the most basic skill in woodworking is to be able to make square and straight stock in whatever dimension required from whatever raw material walks into my life. That’s what my machinery is for. That’s the heart. It’s a sense of power, a sense of independence.

The BS is the most awesome slicer and dicer there is.

The jointer is the most awesome tool for flattening and squaring.

The planer is the most awesome repeatable dimensioning tool ever invented.

Someday I will have a really heavy-duty BS, but my 1.5 hp machine right now eats whatever I give it with cheap, nothing to brag-about blades. My rips and re-saws are extremely straight and very accurate with zero compensation. I set my fence, and the boards come out perfect… just a little rough. You’d have to be a moron to get hurt on a BS or a planer. Jointing… takes some sense and a lot of caution. A TS can throw a piece right through your back wall into the yard (if it doesn’t hit you first).

IMO, if you don’t factor in the jointing and planing aspect to woodworking, non of the above will make sense and it will go “pist” right over your head anyway.

[Ken Milhinch]

Paul,
A bandsaw is slower, rougher and not as accurate as a table saw, but it is definitely safer. If that is what suits you, good luck to you. To each his own.:cool:

[Art Mann]

Chuck,
Put another way, when measuring lumber for cutting, I always try to estimate how much will be milled off afterward for a straight, square board. Considering one will never have a straight board after ripping it or resawing it, why would I care how “slick” the cut is?


Well that statement is where we disagree. You may have trouble ripping a board straight and square on a tablesaw but I don't. Of course I joint a reference edge first but then I just rip the other edge parallel with a good saw blade. All the woodworkers I know do it this way and seem to do just fine. When I do panel glue ups, I usually run the second edge through the jointer after ripping but sometimes I don't. I haven't been able to tell any difference in the result either way. If I am ripping rails or stiles to width, I never run them through the jointer after the sizing cut. Too me, that just introduces another possibility for dimensional error. I will run a ROS over the sawn surface, or maybe scrape it after the cut, but I would do that anyway. I will sometimes plane 3/4" lumber to width by standing it on edge if it isn't too wide (~1 1/4"), but that is a matter of convenience rather than necessity. I use digital calipers to measure widths and have no touble ripping to +/- 0.005 if it is really important. What I am saying is you have started out with what I consider an erroneous assumption, and I have lots of evidence to convince me of that. I don't mean to criticise. If you are getting the results you are looking for with a bandsaw, jointer and planer that is good. I just wouldn't and say that is the only way or best way for others. There are a lot more people who dimension lumber with a tablesaw directly than your method.

I am saying all this for the benefit of someone who is just getting into woodworkng. I don't believe that a bandsaw is an adequate substitute for a tablesaw in most situations.

[Wilbur Pan]

Well that statement is where we disagree. You may have trouble ripping a board straight and square on a tablesaw but I don't....I am saying all this for the benefit of someone who is just getting into woodworking. I don't believe that a bandsaw is an adequate substitute for a tablesaw in most situations.
[Insert tongue firmly in cheek]

Well that statement is where we disagree. You may have trouble ripping a board straight and square on a bandsaw but I don't....I am saying all this for the benefit of someone who is just getting into woodworking. I don't believe that a tablesaw is an adequate substitute for a bandsaw in most situations.

======

Seriously, we should all remember just because we may have a workflow that we use to achieve a desired result, that does not invalidate other methods used to achieve the same end. Just because I am getting good results cutting square boards with my bandsaw does not mean that one can't do it on a tablesaw, and vice versa.

As far as smoothness of cut off of a bandsaw goes, I've found that not achieving a smooth cut on 1" stock or less on a bandsaw is most likely due to not using the right blade, and not due to problems with the bandsaw itself.

[Art Mann]

I won't argue the point any further. One can always justify one's decisions based on their own unassailable assumptions. I would just urge any inexperienced hobbiests who are trying to decide what equipment they need to contact experienced woodworkers doing the same kind of work they want to accomplish to help them with their decisions. A "hands on" demonstration would be the best. Anyone (including me) can say anthing they like on an internet forum with no proof and no risk to themselves.

[Jules Dominguez]

Paul, I have an old Rockwell 14" bandsaw and a new Sawstop. I don't have a joiner and would be hard-pressed to find space for one, so I use hand planes and sleds in combination with a planer and the tablesaw to get my boards straight, flat and to thickness. I prefer using a tablesaw to a bandsaw, maybe because I haven't spent a lot of time trying to improve my bandsaw and my bandsaw skills. I'll probably stick with the equipment and methods I have.

However, I hear you and believe that you can do exactly what you say you do with your tools. I think it comes down to what tools we've already invested dollars and learning in, how much extra space and dollars we might have to devote to new tools, and just personal preferences.

One thing I do have a strong personal preference about, is that I much prefer to cut dados with a tablesaw than with a router, although I own three routers, one of them 3 hp and mounted on a decent table. I use the routers only for those dados that I can't conveniently cut on the tablesaw.

Different strokes for different folks, and many ways to skin a cat, especially one made of wood.

[Paul Simmel]

I have not continued to argue the point as much as I have attempted to untwist the mis-reads and their responses.

Art,

>>> I use digital calipers to measure widths and have no touble ripping to +/- 0.005 if it is really important. (.0005 is a lot, BTW…)

You are missing the point entirely. I can’t help that you leave straightening out of your woodworking equation, and as far as hobbyists, I’d think that this discussion would be more than worthwhile.

Here’s where you miss:

>>> If I am ripping rails or stiles to width, I never run them through the jointer after the sizing cut. Too me, that just introduces another possibility for dimensional error.

I’ll put it as basic as I can for hobbyists.

Your example: styles/rails.

a) ripping 2 ½” strips off say an exactly dimensioned 3/4'” thick 12 “ wide board, on a TS, may yield “exactly” 2 ½” wide boards (not my point at all), but they will not be straight (my point), nor after ripping may they remain flat (likely, but not at all always).
b) On a 12” board, stresses are released with each 2 ½” strip ripped off… TS or BS.
c) If you want a straight, 2 ½” wide style, after ripping it on a TS or BS, the only way you can get it straight is to joint it.
d) After planing, it will no longer be 2 ½” wide, because the jointer will have taken a bite out of the bowed board, and you will need to plane to the narrowest thickness… but it will be VERY STRAIGHT.

So, here’s what you do in order to have the straightest styles which are exactly 2 ½” wide.

a) Rip the strips off the 12” board at 2 5/8”. Each one will banana as they will. Let them… it is natural for the wood to bend after opposing grain/stresses are cut out of the 12” piece.
b) Joint and edge on each style, till straight… probably one pass.
c) Plane to 2 ½”.
d) Presto.

-=-=-=-

I’ll put this in my own words: Once a “perfectly” straight and flat board is cut into pieces… or even trimmed-off sometimes… the piece/s will not remain straight. If those pieces are what you want to make doors with, then so be it.

Mind you, my BS preference is for the tool to initially slice and dice the stock. By all means use your TS instead if that is your preferred ripping tool… but don’t tell me about the smooth cuts and all that, because more often than not, those smooth cuts are going to be jointed and planed off anyway if your focus is on straight, flat stock.

[Paul Simmel]

Jules,

I like my TS and do not argue against one, and have stated a number of times that I will be using it for dados and such.

The thread was never meant to persuade people away from their TS, though some have taken it that way and have tried to make it into a TS is better than a BS thread. IMO, this is an in-depth “what’s the heart” discussion. I’m trying my best to explain my operation… which involves I think a more precise straightening and flattening preference than some, and how I achieve that…

After stock is ripped, though, the jointer and planer are far superior tools and essentially remove the initial ripping cuts anyway.

In your case you are using hand tools to achieve the same level of accuracy… and my hat is off to you!

[Sam Blasco]

I definitely reside in the bandsaw camp - it is my favorite tool. I had post a thread about a bandsaw vs. table saw challenge at a tradeshow and if anyone is interested they could check it out at Family WoodWorking forum.

[Kirk Poore]

I’ll put this in my own words: Once a “perfectly” straight and flat board is cut into pieces… or even trimmed-off sometimes… the piece/s will not remain straight. If those pieces are what you want to make doors with, then so be it.

Mind you, my BS preference is for the tool to initially slice and dice the stock. By all means use your TS instead if that is your preferred ripping tool… but don’t tell me about the smooth cuts and all that, because more often than not, those smooth cuts are going to be jointed and planed off anyway if your focus is on straight, flat stock.

Paul:

I agree with your statement, but I would add one thing (which, if you mentioned, I missed): The wood movement after the initial cut will not happen instantly. If I need perfectly flat & straight pieces after the initial dimensioning, I will set the oversize piece aside for a week or so and let it warp/twist/cup/whatever. After that I'll go to the jointing/planing to final size.

Kirk

[Don Bullock]

It seems to me that whichever method of woodworking is comfortable and applies to the type of work one is doing are the deciding factors here. As a pure hobbiest, I prefer having both saws. Balancing large and long stock on the bandsaw is something I find difficult. Using a table saw for this kind of work is much easier for me. My bandsaw right now is reserved mostly for making curved cuts. That's all I have ever used one for. There are some joints on pending projects that I plan to do on my bandsaw. It seems best suited for what I plan to do, but since I now have a better table saw I may change my mind on that. I'm sure, as I get more experienced with one, that I'll do some resawing. I love some of the bookmatched work I've seen and would like to try that some day.

[Art Mann]

Who would pay a premium for 12 inch lumber in order to make it into 2 1/2" rails? Try using a more appropriate width material to start with. I can see how, if you did saw up a 1 X 12, internal stresses might produce an unacceptable bow, although it is not inevitable. In such a case, it wouldn't matter what machine one chose to rip lumber on.

[J.R. Rutter]

If you can get a straight edge off the table saw, great! I do it for panel prep every day, ripping off a thin strip after jointing the other edge. Decent GLR blade lets you go right to the clamps with no visible glue line.

But unless you have a good relationship with an exceptional kiln operator, many (most?) boards will bow if you cut them into strips. Does it matter how you rip these boards? Not if you are going to joint them anyway.

The original post was a reality check of sorts. (Re)consider how your tools are used.

Given:

To make consistently straight strips, you have to joint an edge AFTER getting the width close to final dimension. THEN rip, shape, or plane to final width.

Therefore:

Since you are removing the first sawn edge on the jointer, it doesn't matter how smooth that edge is. So a bandsaw is no different than a table saw as far as the first cut on that strip is concerned.

So what does this mean for someone with a finite budget who is building up a base of machine tools to build straight things?

Maybe this:

You need a jointer.

You need a planer if you want things flat, too.

You need a saw to cut straight lines.

So how to rip?

If you cut solid wood, especially curves or chunks thicker than 3", a good bandsaw takes priority over a table saw, since the jointer and planer can be used to get glue quality edges when you need them.

If you build things with sheet stock, like cabinets, a good table saw should come first, especially if you use dados, or don't have a good miter saw.

In my shop, I use table saws more than my band saw. But if I built anything much thicker than 1", a band saw would quickly take center stage.

[Paul Simmel]

Art,

Mostly all of my initial starter stock is anywhere from 8” – 12” wide and usually 1-1/2” thick. I am cutting my styles/rails, panel material, etc., from somewhere within selected boards, so wood movement is a given for me. I will cut out specific parts from anywhere within a given board. “Fall-off” can peel off like a banana in one direction or another. Peeled off strips are not wasted… just milled flat and straight for other, less optimum or attractive parts. Sometimes thinner fall- off is planed, mated bow-to-bow and laminated, re-sawn, and milled again depending on my needs.

Kirk,

No, I didn’t mention it, and I wish I did. Your post, especially in the context of this discussion, is darn near perfect!

J.R.,

Good points all.

Don,

I have two ShopFox roller tables that are height adjustable. Infeed and outfeed tables, if you will. I can easily handle 16’ stock on the BS this way. I stand right up against the saw, standing to the left of the fence, and just feed the stock from there. For shorter stock all I need is the outfeed table (or a saw horse).

[Randy Klein]

I have a question for the Bandsaw side (not that I'm trying to divide everyone...).

In the milling process where you joint and plane the faces, then joint an edge, the next step is to rip the opposing edge on the tablesaw, parallel to the jointed edge.

For the bandsaw, I know about rough ripping before even starting the milling process.

But do you also use the bandsaw for that last step in the milling process? And if so, how parallel is that cut?

[J.R. Rutter]

But do you also use the bandsaw for that last step in the milling process? And if so, how parallel is that cut?

For a glue joint, you would re-surface that last cut on the jointer. My bandsaw will cut straight and parallel all day. But for panels, I typically use the table saw and call it good without jointing the final edge :-)

For processing strips, a planer gives a better finish surface than a table saw, so that last rip is also a rough cut. Odds are good that the strip is now bowed, so re-joint one edge, then plane to final width. This is how I do all of my flat/square edge strips. Shaped edge strips, like rails and stiles, get final width dimension along with profile at the same time on the shaper. So I could rip with a chain saw and still have good results!

[James Hebert]

I rarely use the bandsaw. I hate the course ragged inaccurate cuts it makes. Even at that, I dont find myself even thinking of using the bandsaw very often as the table saw and miter saw do the vast majority of the work.
I have two bandsaws, a small 8" and a standup 14" and find myself pushing the 14" out of the way most of the time.

[Randy Klein]

For processing strips, a planer gives a better finish surface than a table saw, so that last rip is also a rough cut. Odds are good that the strip is now bowed, so re-joint one edge, then plane to final width. This is how I do all of my flat/square edge strips.

I know this response is rather belated (I'll PM you) but, what do you do for boards that have a final dimension greater than 6"? My planer has a 6" limit in height, so I wouldn't be able to do final dimensioning there for those boards. Does your planer not have this limitation? Is this where hand tools would be needed?

[Randy Klein]

I’ll put this in my own words: Once a “perfectly” straight and flat board is cut into pieces… or even trimmed-off sometimes… the piece/s will not remain straight. If those pieces are what you want to make doors with, then so be it.


Paul, does this movement occur after doing the final jointing and planing to width as well? Or is the amount of movement relative to the amount removed and thus, joint and planing 1/16th off won't have much movement?

[J.R. Rutter]

Randy,

Regarding boards wider than planer capacity: Does the board need to be accurately dimensioned? If so, I would use a good saw blade, rip to width and hit it with a hand sanding block or plane to remove the minor saw tooth marks.

I have a feed-through edge sander, but don't know if I would trust it to maintain a uniform depth of cut on long parts, just like a jointer can be a bit off over the length of an 8 foot board.

[Randy Klein]

Randy,

Regarding boards wider than planer capacity: Does the board need to be accurately dimensioned? If so, I would use a good saw blade, rip to width and hit it with a hand sanding block or plane to remove the minor saw tooth marks.


Good, that's what I was thinking was the solution.

[Scot wolf]

No bandsaw in my shop at the moment. I sold my 30" Tannewitz a couple of years ago. I'm holding out for a bandsawstop.

[Randy Klein]

I'm holding out for a bandsawstop.

I saw the video of that, it's equally as impressive as the table saw.

[Jamie Baalmann]

This question has got a little to heated.. Both machines have got their place but, if you could only choose one then it would have to do entirely with what you are doing in your shop.. I have never used a band saw, not saying I won't ever buy one, but at this point I don't have the money to spend on one. With the right jigs you can do anything on a table saw. I never use my miter saw and wish I had never bought it. I cut all case, base, crown, wood flooring, panels, dadoes, miters, everything on the table saw. When I have to do heavy resawing, make curved cuts, or make veneer then I will have to buy a band saw. Either one could easily be the heart of your shop, for me if you could only have one tool it would be the table saw. It is the most versatile tool there is. Drop a router lift in the extension and you got a router table throw a piece of 1/4" over it and you have a work table, and as far as safety that has to do w/ the user.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Interesting reading....all in all many opinions and many ways to accomplish the same task....there are no right answers and there are no wrong ones either. I have the benefit of a slider and a bandsaw and oh some other nice pieces of machinery. I gave up on my TS about 4 years ago. While I do use my slider for ripping solid stock, with my ripping jig, I do the bulk of my ripping on the bandsaw. I will further note that my bandsaw ripping is rough...I then run through jointer and final size everything off of the nice straight edge through the planer. It does not get any easier than that from the perspective of perfectly matched stock where all i do is feed a machine. Now if I was in a heavy production evironment it would most likely be a rip saw and then planer??? not sure. Either way this is what I do and I am more than happy to no longer have a American style TS in my shop. Oh one more thing...we work with wood, a living medium!!! there really is no perfect cut piece after it sits for a bit ;)

[Glenwood Morris]

I won't argue the point any further. One can always justify one's decisions based on their own unassailable assumptions. I would just urge any inexperienced hobbiests who are trying to decide what equipment they need to contact experienced woodworkers doing the same kind of work they want to accomplish to help them with their decisions. A "hands on" demonstration would be the best. Anyone (including me) can say anthing they like on an internet forum with no proof and no risk to themselves.

I think those inexperienced hobbyists are much more likely to cut a finger off with a tablesaw than with a bandsaw.

The tablesaw is one of, if not the most, dangerous tools in the shop. If you can eliminate it from your workflow, you have greatly reduced your risk.

The tablesaw is second to only the router in "number of gimmicky products produced to make it do something it wasnt intended to do". This is because every novice woodworker is told they must have a tablesaw, the ts ends up taking up most of their space, and then they have to figure out how to make it do all of the things they need, which it wasn't intended to do in the first place. Most of these operations are also not very safe.

The bandsaw->Jointer->Planer workflow, for a small shop, is more space efficient and safer. Just because you didn't learn woodworking that way doesn't give you the right to make condescending comments about other people's workflow. Nor does it entitle you to dictate what novices should buy/use.

As far as getting perfect 90 degree glue joint edges out of a table saw with a tiling arbor? Your 90 degrees must have a greater acceptance of error than mine. The only two machines a furniture factory will accept "glue lines" from is a jointer, or a straight-line rip saw, which doesn't have a tilting arbor.

[Glenwood Morris]

I'd like to point out here that the original poster is dimensioning lumber in the same method it would be dimensioned in a factory.

Lumber is brought into the rough mill, and cut oversized to a specific set of tolerances depending on the cutting method. The smallest set of tolerances used in most factories is 1/2" extra in length and width, and 1/4" extra in thickness.

I think many of the TS adherant responders, do not do this. They feel that they can simply cut stock off of a board the finished width and be done with it. This may be ok for the work you are doing, which may be fine work. However it isn't industry accepted practice (if you even care about that).

Most all woodworkers learn their craft from a collection of hearsay and mimicry, rather than from say an engineering or design standpoint. This is like the difference between a 3rd generation farmer, and a graduate of a Ag-Science college program. The 3rd generation farmer will likely have more experience, but he will also be much more closed off to innovation or new ways of thinking about things.

All in all, you want to tick someone off, challenge how they do their job/hobby. Or in this case even dare to propose a different way of doing things.

[Charles Wilson]

I have been thinking that way myself. A bandsaw and a guided rail system could make a table saw unnecessary. The table saw does seem to be one of the most dangerous tools and making it safer by going with a SawStop or a slider brings the cost way up. By avoiding a table saw, I could spend more on a top notch bandsaw.

This brings up an issue that I was thinking about - How do you do accurate, repeatable dados for cabinets and such?

Chuck

[Allen Bookout]

Back from the dead. What a comeback! I find it interesting to read this thread again after remembering how very few responses were even about the origional question to start with. The only question that I could find in the origional post was the question below.


I (I know there are, but I will ask anyway) Are there other BS-heart shops out there?

I guess that I will just sit back and see what happens next.

[Greg Pavlov]

..... Balancing large and long stock on the bandsaw is something I find difficult. Using a table saw for this kind of work is much easier for me. ....
Don't want to hijack a thread, but this is one thing I don't understand: why does just about any table saw >$400 or so come with a big fence and table (not always completely flat&accurate, but always LARGE) while all bandsaws, including the 14 inchers and above, tools used to slice up big long hunks of wood, come with tables just about the size of the tray they bring your food on in a hospital?

[Art Mann]

I think those inexperienced hobbyists are much more likely to cut a finger off with a tablesaw than with a bandsaw.

The tablesaw is one of, if not the most, dangerous tools in the shop. If you can eliminate it from your workflow, you have greatly reduced your risk.

Am I to understand then that we should "hide" information about more dangerous tools in the shop like the tablesaw because unsuspecting beginners will cut their fingers off before they know any better? Talk about condescendng . . . If you are that concerned about beginner safety, then why don't you advocate all hand tools. A bandsaw is hugely more dangerous than a hand saw.

The tablesaw is second to only the router in "number of gimmicky products produced to make it do something it wasnt intended to do". This is because every novice woodworker is told they must have a tablesaw, the ts ends up taking up most of their space, and then they have to figure out how to make it do all of the things they need, which it wasn't intended to do in the first place. Most of these operations are also not very safe.

That is, of course, your own personal opinion -- which is worth exactly the same as mine and everyone else's on this forum, but no more. I think the tablesaw has been adapted to do lots of different jobs because it is the fastest and most efficient way to get those jobs done. Apparently, an overwhelming number of fellow woodworkers agree. As for the router, my opinion is that it has been adapted to do many jobs for which it was not originally intended because people can't afford such items as moulders, shapers and mortising machines and it is an adequate substitute in many cases.

The bandsaw->Jointer->Planer workflow, for a small shop, is more space efficient and safer. Just because you didn't learn woodworking that way doesn't give you the right to make condescending comments about other people's workflow. Nor does it entitle you to dictate what novices should buy/use.

I beg your pardon sir, but I did not attempt to dictate what a novice woodworker should do. Please go back and re-read my posts. I simply advised such people to seek the council of those who are more experienced than themselves for advice. It appears your advice to them is to ignore such sources of information and pay attention to certain faceless anonymous people whose advice they read on the internet.

As for your your workflow idea, I am glad you have a venue to advocate it. Just remember that your opinion is just that. It is not converntional wisdom. Conventional wisdom may be right or wrong, but there is usually a reason it became conventional wisdom.

As far as getting perfect 90 degree glue joint edges out of a table saw with a tiling arbor? Your 90 degrees must have a greater acceptance of error than mine. The only two machines a furniture factory will accept "glue lines" from is a jointer, or a straight-line rip saw, which doesn't have a tilting arbor.

I normally like to use a jointer myself, but I have had good success on several occasions gluing up edges right off the tablesaw. The idea that you can't achieve a perfect 90 degree rip because the tablesaw has a tilting arbor is so frequently contradicted by common experience that it is just laughable. This technique has been used by a very large percentage of people on this board, probably a majority. My standards may be poor, but people can not normally tell where the glue line is on the glue-ups I have done and that is all I am interested in.

By the way, what furniture factories have you worked in that would allow you to make such a broad and sweeping generalization?


I would like to take a moment to put this ancient post into perspective. Paul Simmel presented an alternative concept to processing wood than what is commonly done. So far -- so good. There is certainly nothing wrong with that. However, he pressed his position by making claims about certain woodworking techniques that I, and thousands of other hobbiests and professionals know from experience are not true. I simply challenged these incorrect assumptions. If it were not me, it would almost certainly have been someone else.

[Art Mann]

I'd like to point out here that the original poster is dimensioning lumber in the same method it would be dimensioned in a factory.

Lumber is brought into the rough mill, and cut oversized to a specific set of tolerances depending on the cutting method. The smallest set of tolerances used in most factories is 1/2" extra in length and width, and 1/4" extra in thickness.

I think many of the TS adherant responders, do not do this. They feel that they can simply cut stock off of a board the finished width and be done with it. This may be ok for the work you are doing, which may be fine work. However it isn't industry accepted practice (if you even care about that).

Most all woodworkers learn their craft from a collection of hearsay and mimicry, rather than from say an engineering or design standpoint. This is like the difference between a 3rd generation farmer, and a graduate of a Ag-Science college program. The 3rd generation farmer will likely have more experience, but he will also be much more closed off to innovation or new ways of thinking about things.

All in all, you want to tick someone off, challenge how they do their job/hobby. Or in this case even dare to propose a different way of doing things.

Pardon me once again, Mr. Morris, but I would have to take issue with you there. I used to work at a little cabinet shop in Ashland, Alabama that did otherwise. I got some of my techniques there many years ago. You can read about it here.

http://www.wellborn.com/about/

[Greg Pavlov]

As far as getting perfect 90 degree glue joint edges out of a table saw with a tiling arbor? Your 90 degrees must have a greater acceptance of error than mine. The only two machines a furniture factory will accept "glue lines" from is a jointer, or a straight-line rip saw, which doesn't have a tilting arbor.
If you want to use a ts to prepare boards for edge gluing, wouldn't you flip adjacent ones over to cancel out any minor perpendicularity errors?

[Art Mann]

Greg, that is a good point. However, this may not always be possible if you are trying to match grain patterns. There is an easy way to find out whether your edges are perpendicular to the flat surface. Just stack the boards on edge on a flat level surface in the same way in which they will be glued. If they form a straight stable line and don't fall over, then the edges are flat, straight and perpendicular to the flat surfaces. My thanks to whoever it was on this board who taught me that trick.

[Greg Pavlov]

......Greg, that is a good point. However, this may not always be possible if you are trying to match grain patterns. ....
The trick, I thought, was to cut opposite sides in the first place, e.g., lay out the boards in the pattern you want, then flip the odd-numbered ones end-for-end before final ripping.

There is an easy way to find out whether your edges are perpendicular to the flat surface. Just stack the boards on edge on a flat level surface in the same way in which they will be glued. If they form a straight stable line and don't fall over, then the edges are flat, straight and perpendicular to the flat surfaces. My thanks to whoever it was on this board who taught me that trick.I'll remember that....

[Glenwood Morris]

Am I to understand then that we should "hide" information about more dangerous tools in the shop like the tablesaw because unsuspecting beginners will cut their fingers off before they know any better? Talk about condescendng . . . If you are that concerned about beginner safety, then why don't you advocate all hand tools. A bandsaw is hugely more dangerous than a hand saw.

This is a preposterous argument. You claimed that newcomers would be led astray by the idea of a bandsaw substituting for the ripping operation in a solid-wood shop. I simply claimed that not only was the original poster correct about dimensioning, but that the bandsaw had the added benefit of being a safer tool for novices. Somehow you turned that into me wanting to hide information about table saw safety? I don't know how you did that, but you might want to look at a sideline job writing for politicians.



That is, of course, your own personal opinion -- which is worth exactly the same as mine and everyone else's on this forum, but no more. I think the tablesaw has been adapted to do lots of different jobs because it is the fastest and most efficient way to get those jobs done. Apparently, an overwhelming number of fellow woodworkers agree. As for the router, my opinion is that it has been adapted to do many jobs for which it was not originally intended because people can't afford such items as moulders, shapers and mortising machines and it is an adequate substitute in many cases.

You were very condecending to the original poster's claims, but now we are all entitled to our own opinions?

The table saw is not always the fastest way to get things done, and it is seldom the safest. Like I said before, woodworkers learn mostly from hearsay and mimicry, "if someone else is doing it, then that must be the way to do it!" Rather than any inquisitive search for improved methods it's simply repeating what has always been done.



I beg your pardon sir, but I did not attempt to dictate what a novice woodworker should do. Please go back and re-read my posts. I simply advised such people to seek the council of those who are more experienced than themselves for advice. It appears your advice to them is to ignore such sources of information and pay attention to certain faceless anonymous people whose advice they read on the internet.

As for your your workflow idea, I am glad you have a venue to advocate it. Just remember that your opinion is just that. It is not converntional wisdom. Conventional wisdom may be right or wrong, but there is usually a reason it became conventional wisdom.

Conventional wisdom was bloodletting, conventional wisdom was plowing straight over a hill rather than around it or terracing. Conventional wisdom was clearcutting. Conventional wisdom has a horrible track record.

Go to Stanley furniture, or Bassett, and see how many of their glued panels come from saws with tilting arbors.



I would like to take a moment to put this ancient post into perspective. Paul Simmel presented an alternative concept to processing wood than what is commonly done. So far -- so good. There is certainly nothing wrong with that. However, he pressed his position by making claims about certain woodworking techniques that I, and thousands of other hobbiests and professionals know from experience are not true. I simply challenged these incorrect assumptions. If it were not me, it would almost certainly have been someone else.

His assumptions about properly dimensioning lumber were not incorrect. You assumed that because he did not agree with your presumption of tilting-arbor table saws making perfect glue joints, that he was somehow incorrect.

The world of woodworking is largely filled with crotchety old men who don't like change. Thats largely why they just build reproductions rather than exploring new design, and it's largely why they act defensive when anyone suggests anything different for their workflow.

[Chuck Lenz]

I have been thinking that way myself. A bandsaw and a guided rail system could make a table saw unnecessary. The table saw does seem to be one of the most dangerous tools and making it safer by going with a SawStop or a slider brings the cost way up. By avoiding a table saw, I could spend more on a top notch bandsaw.
If you think a bandsaw is safer then a tablesaw then you need to do a little research on how many meat cutters are missing a digit or two from a bandsaw, I think you will change your mind and learn to respect what damage they can do equally. My bandsaw will never replace my tablesaw, the tablesaw in my shop sees much more use. But thats my preference, everyone has their own way of doing things.

[Glenwood Morris]

If you think a bandsaw is safer then a tablesaw then you need to do a little research on how many meat cutters are missing a digit or two from a bandsaw, I think you will change your mind and learn to respect what damage they can do equally. My bandsaw will never replace my tablesaw, the tablesaw in my shop sees much more use. But thats my preference, everyone has their own way of doing things.

Any machine that moves sharpened teeth anywhere near your hands is dangerous.

A bandsaw will not kickback, a table saw can. the guard protecting you from most of the blade is integral to the bandsaw, it's an addition that is often removed, or is considered an annoyance on a table saw.

No tool is safe, if Health & Safety ran everything we would all be in padded rooms. However, a bandsaw, if used with the same level of care as a table saw, exposes one to much less risk.

[Randy Klein]

Are there other BS-heart shops out there?

Getting back to the OP's question (from almost a year ago), yes, I have a BS-heart shop and have no plans on getting a TS.

For sheet goods, I have the EZ system.

The EZ system is also used to handle rips in long (8'-10') boards that wouldn't be easy on the BS or TS.

I crosscut by hand.

I square edges and ends with hand planes, shooting boards, and a square.

[Billy Chambless]

(I know there are, but I will ask anyway) Are there other BS-heart shops out there?

Well, I consider the bench to be the heart of my shop, but a 17" bandsaw is the only stationary power tool (unless you want to count the not-yet-built router table.) I'm just setting this shop up, so ask me in a month how it works. ;)

[Tim Marks]

Most all woodworkers learn their craft from a collection of hearsay and mimicry, rather than from say an engineering or design standpoint.
Sounds like an apprenticeship program to me, which IMHO is the best way to learn the art of woodworking (and the science and engineering principles).

Unfortunately, I have to learn only by hearsay...

I love my BS, find it enjoyable to use, and consider it much safer then a TS. Unfortunately, my hearsay method of learning has not allowed me to develop the skill to rip perfectly enough to allow it to replace a TS.

But I figured out on my second day how to get almost perfect rip lines on my TS, and how to correctly rip oversize once I added jointing and planing to the process. By taking proper precautions (pushsticks, featherboards, bladeguard and pawls, and standing to the left), I believe that I have sufficiently mitigated the risk of using a TS, so I really have no inclination to waste a bunch of stock trying to duplicate on the BS what come natural on the TS.

And my TS rips about five times faster then my BS.

To each their own. But I do wish that BS would come with a much larger table. Like someone else said, it seems ridiculous that even the high end BS come with a table not much bigger then the tray table on an airline.

When it comes time to upgrade either my TS (Ridgid 3650) or BS (Rikon 14"), I will upgrade my BS. My TS does everything I want it to do, but I think a higher quality BS would help get more consistant results.

[M Toupin]

The tablesaw is one of, if not the most, dangerous tools in the shop. If you can eliminate it from your workflow, you have greatly reduced your risk.

Not to keep flogging the horse, but this really doesn't stand to logic. Yes, more injuries are caused by the TS but the vast majority of shops contain a TS, the percentage with a BS far less. Now, if the vast majority of shops contained a BS, and only a few contained a TS, which machine do you suppose would be responsible for the majority of injuries?

As to safer? The only full amputation I've ever personally witnessed occurred on a BS. Meat cutters use a BS for a reason.

Mike

[Greg Funk]

Not to keep flogging the horse, but this really doesn't stand to logic. Yes, more injuries are caused by the TS but the vast majority of shops contain a TS, the percentage with a BS far less. Now, if the vast majority of shops contained a BS, and only a few contained a TS, which machine do you suppose would be responsible for the majority of injuries?

As to safer? The only full amputation I've ever personally witnessed occurred on a BS. Meat cutters use a BS for a reason.

Mike
Mike,

Have you used both? Personally I find there are far fewer 'events' that can happen on a bandsaw and I feel more comfortable having my kids make cuts on the bandsaw rather than the tablesaw. Yes you can chop your arm off but it is not difficult to teach safe operation on the bandsaw.

The tablesaw can also be made to be safe if all of the appropriate safety guards are used although I suspect more than 50% of people (including myself) don't always all of their safety devices.

Using the bandsaw it is very easy and safe to work with small pieces of wood unlike the tablesaw.

Greg

[Jim Becker]

Voice your opinions all you want folks, but please remain respectful in how you do so. This has been getting a little too testy and personal and that has to stop. Now.

If the trend continues, this thread will be closed to further posting.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[M Toupin]

Mike, Have you used both?

I presently own a 5hp cabinet saw, a contractor style saw, 3 BS ranging from 10" to 16" and a slew of other machines. I've been WW since I was old enough to walk into my dads & grandfathers shop, 40+ years. I've worked in small and large commercial shops and used some very large commercial machines. In short, I've seen my fair share of industrial accidents with a variety of machines.

The TS/BS argument is just that, an argument between two camps that believe they've found the perfect solution. Unfortunately there is no "perfect solution". Much depends on the type of work, the methods of work and the comfort level working around machines of each individual. Personally, I'll keep working with the machines and methods I'm comfortable with.

Mike

[Greg Funk]

Mike,

I wasn't arguing to get rid of the tablesaw as I don't intend to stop using mine. But I do think the bandsaw is safer. Unfortunately, it won't cut dados...

Greg

[Paul Simmel]

Sorry I missed the fireworks!

I too never argued against the TS... just touted the advantages of the BS for solid lumber work, since all of the parts, after they're sliced up, will get dimensioned at the jointer and ultimately the planer. In addition to the faces, I easily dimension the edges of parts with the planer. After jointing two surfaces I can thickness everything, then stack 5 - 6 pieces together and run them through on edge... no problem. Much more consistent dimensions this way.

I'd never rip, for example, styles or rails, or table aprons, to width on a TS. I slice off my material a little over sized to allow for machining. I machine my styles, rails, aprons, to width (after they have been edge and face jointed.)

If I need 1/4", or 3/16" strips, I'd never cut them on the TS. I joint one edge of a the larger piece, slice off a strip, then send it through the planer set to 1/4". I'll joint another edge, slice it off, and plane. Everything remains consistent.

I use my cabinet saw for sheeting goods... and dado setup. when working with ply. A good TS is good to have!... the few times it's needed. A TS is good for squaring and sizing glued up panels which have been prepared from the BS, jointed and planed and glued.

Love my BS, jointer and planer combo. Three very safe machines, especially the jointer. Jointers don't kick back, they suck the wood down to the table. You can easily push the stock though a jointer with your little finger. Just keep it above the cutters as you pass though.

[Billy Chambless]

If the trend continues, this thread will be closed to further posting.


And I'd hate to see that -- both the trend and the closing. There have been some good ideas in this thread in between the, ah, other stuff.

One of the things I value most about SMC is being able to hear from woodworkers whose backgrounds, assumptions and methods of work differ from mine.

[Jerry Booher]

I hope Norm Abrams sees this thread so he can stop using his table saw for nearly everything and switch to a bandsaw. Based on his New Yankee Workshop, I bought a really nice cabinet saw. As a novice, I bought what the expert uses all the time.

Although I have been doing rough carpentry with a circular saw and a miter saw for over 35 years, I decided to enjoy retirement by building cabinets, etc. for my wife. Two years ago I started with a Delta Professional, but my wife "forced" me to sell it and buy a SawStop this summer. That will always be the safest tool in my shop.

I have been wanting to buy a bandsaw, but I cannot justify it for anything except curved cuts. Since I don't like curved wood parts, I have not purchased yet. Thanks to this thread, I can now buy one with the knowledge that it is multi-purpose. At least I think that is what I am understanding. I still think I will use the TS instead.