Hand cut mortise technique question

[jonathan snyder]

Hi folks,

I'm trying to learn to chop mortises by hand. I have the Rob Cosman video and see that when Rob chops, he holds the chisel with the bevel facing him and pulls the chisel back towards himself to lever out the waste. In the recent issue of Woodworking magazine, Chris Schwarz demonstrates the Maynard technique. Chris holds the chisel with the bevel facing away from him, and pulls the chisel back towards himself to lever out the waste.

Anyone have any thoughts? Which technique is better?

I have been practicing the Cosman method. I have cut a half dozen or so, the last two evenings. I'm getting some good and some not do good results, I guess it just takes practice. Seems like I'm having more difficulty sawing my tenon cheeks square and plumb, but that is another issue!

Thanks
Jonathan

[Rob Millard]

Jonathan,
Despite all the attention dovetails get, hand cut mortises & tenons are far more difficult to execute properly. I have not seen either of the two references you describe, but I drill a pilot hole near the center of the mortise ( along its length). After a stroke or two, getting the waste out is very easy, because it has somewhere to go, and I can chop the mortise to its full depth or nearly its full depth in one pass. I actually don’t like to lever the waste out with the mortise chisel as it puts a lot of unnecessary stress on the cutting edge, so I go back with a regular bench chisel and mallet to chop the waste out in layers.

As for the tenon, scribing a deep line on the shoulder and then angling the knife with a second cut and taking out a small chip, will form a pocket for the saw; working this way you should get a perfect shoulder right from the saw. The cheek cuts are tough, my problem is I tend to crowd the saw, instead of keeping my shoulder, elbow and hand inline with the cut. On narrow tenons, I saw just from one side, but on wider ones, I saw down diagonally from each side and then connect them, sawing down to the shoulder line.
Rob Millard

[Andrew Williams]

try holding your tenon saw with both hands. I have found this to be a good way to ensure the saw does not veer to one side due to my motion.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Might be a good idea to study Jeff Gorman's methods for a bit ( http://www.amgron.clara.net/mortise/maynardmethod/maynardindex.htm ). If done properly, not much if any levering is needed.

I start in the middle and follow the bevel almost until the end, then turn the chisel and do likewise toward the other end. The last thing is to turn the chisel around so the back is on the end line, for both ends. As far as cleaning out, I use the Japanese equivalent of the swan neck mortising chisel.

I never pare the sides, they are defined by the chisel, which also defines the tenon width (saw to the waste side).

Pam

[Jon Toebbe]

I've been doing the same thing myself lately, building a lathe stand for my grandfather's old lathe (see my earlier post on blown-out mortises near the ends of legs... grr...). In any event, I've been using those mortises as an opportunity to experiment.

I really like the "Maynard technique" Chris Schwartz described in Woodworking this month. Basically, it's the technique Rob describes except you put the pilot hole near one end of the mortise. Chop and lever into the hole -- when the chisel doesn't bite as deep, you're at the right depth. I got pretty fast with it at the end: cutting a 3" long x 1-1/2" deep mortise in six minutes or so. I imagine the work would go even faster with a proper mortising chisel that I don't have to baby like my Marples Blue Chip.

Let's just say I got a lot of practice sharpening/removing chips from the cutting edge...

Jon

[Bob Smalser]

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5536778/70921478.jpg

Technique schmecktique. Just line up and hit the stupid chisel. ;) And fairly hard, too. These joints never come just a few at a time and the issues are speed along with accuracy. I find the bigger the chisel and the heavier the mallet, the fewer strikes required. The only critical dimensions are the fit of the tenon cheeks and the cosmetics of the tenon shoulder....the rest is overkill to waste your time on. Some overkill is even harmful - besides the usual warning about glue hydraulics, a too tight fit at tenon end and tenon edge will break that weak crossgrain glue joint from seasonal movement a whole lot quicker than excess depth and some slop at the edges. Those edges need room to expand without stressing the glue at the center of the cheeks, which after 50 years is the only part of the glue in the joint still holding. Bind the edges and the entire glueline breaks, not just at the edges.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5536778/70921515.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5536778/70921826.jpg

Learning how to effectively scrape the bottom alone can save you two, 4-strike sequences...this is where longer chisels really shine.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5536778/70921841.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5536778/70921853.jpg

Don't expect to have perfectly uniform results after only half a dozen. 24-36 mortises or more in a single piece of furniture aren't uncommon. I'll chop half a dozen before you get the depth stop set on your drill. Try any technique you want during your run of 36 mortises and count the strikes. You'll find what's fastest for you quick enough.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5536778/245226026.jpg

Ugly mortises chopped in a hurry into wet, stringy wood are just as effective is pretty mortises chopped with more care in crisp hard maple. The tenon shoulder hides any chipping, and the quality of the fit at the tenon cheeks is the only palm-of-the-heel tight fit desired or required.

And I screw up the sawcuts too....especially when I'm working fast. Just cut them fat like the completed cut on the right of the pic and planing or rasping to a perfect fit is fast and easy....certainly faster than making Dutchmen to correct undercutting when trying to cut too close:

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5536778/70922061.jpg

Full details are at the links:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=13246&highlight=mortise+tenon

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=13260&highlight=mortise+tenon

Don't try to make high art out of what basically is hard, sweaty work. Just do the work. The art will grow in direct proportion.

Modern man has been working wood using tools for 250,000 years...and his more primitive predecessors for another 450,000 years before that. Hand tools only very slightly less sophisticated than ours have been around for 50,000 years, albeit made from lesser materials. A bronze L/N smoother would be instantly recognized in ancient Greece for what it is, as would a cast-iron #8 Bailey jointer in ancient Rome. How much more ignorant and arrogant could I possibly be by calling any procedure this simple, "The Smalser Technique"? ;)

[Bob Hallowell]

Bob,
your post are always the best. I always look for them -- humorous and straight forward!

Bob

[Zahid Naqvi]

Jonathan,
On narrow tenons, I saw just from one side, but on wider ones, I saw down diagonally from each side and then connect them, sawing down to the shoulder line.
Rob Millard


Rob, thanks for the tip. I have gotten used to the same process, I can't saw straight to save my life, but I have noticed that if I mark a reference kerf I can follow it easily.

[Jon Toebbe]

Technique schmecktique. Just line up and hit the stupid chisel. ;) ... How much more ignorant and arrogant could I possibly be by calling any procedure this simple, "The Smalser Technique"? ;)
And here I came back to this thread to mention that the other technique (sorry, Bob) I used with success was The Smalser Technique. :D

The only problem I ran into was the aforementioned Marples Blue Chip chisels. They live up to the last part of their name if you lever them too hard... Once I get my grandfather's lathe put back together and mounted on the bench, I'll start turning a handle for the mortise chisel I'm in the process of filing into shape. Then I'll feel more comfortable lining up and hitting the stupid chisel with a little more gusto. :)

Jon

[jonathan snyder]

Hi folks

Thanks for the tips, the info and the links. I will do some more reading and a lot more practicing!!

Jonathan

[Mark Singer]

As you can see there are many techniques. I usually drill a hole and start the chisel there...this way the waste has a place to move and break free....outline the perimeter...move from the hole toward the other edge. Crossing the grain hit hard. When the chisel is parralel to the grain go light..I will wrap tape on the chisel to set the depth...that way the bottom is established. A swan neck chisel is a very good way to scrape the bottom as you go down. That way the edge of the mortice chisel stays sharp..On the tenon I cut the cheeks first then shoulders and finally miter if there is a haunch.. wods are all different . In very hard woods a series of holes pre drilled is a big help....woods like ash are sticky and will not break easily....

[Mike Henderson]

How much more ignorant and arrogant could I possibly be by calling any procedure this simple, "The Smalser Technique"? ;)
If you'll pardon the pun, perhaps this should be called the "Smasher technique"

Seriously though, a while back Bob had recommended the "pig sticker" mortise chisels. I bought one a while back and can report that they really work well. If you've never used one for mortises, I can also recommend them.

Mike

[added note] Here's a picture of the 3/8" chisel I recently bought. It's an old one and has a piece of steel laminated on the edge, similar to the way a Japanese chisel is made. The steel goes about half way up the blade - you can see the boundary between the iron and the steel by the difference in the way they polish (when I polished the back as part of the sharpening). The handle was split - and I wanted to keep it - so I put the wire wrap at the bottom of the handle.
Anyway, Thanks, Bob, for pointing out how well these chisels work.
Oh, one more thing - they're not very expensive. I paid $15 for this one and just bought a 1/2" for less than $12 (without a handle).

[Tom Saurer]

I agree with Bob. I've cut over a hundred mortises by hand using that method.

[jonathan snyder]

Hi Folks,

I spent some time practicing the weekend. In addition to being a skill building exercise, the ultimate goal is a door for a shop cabinet. I cut the grooves for the panel on my tailed router as I do not have a plow plane yet! My sawing techniques needs help, so I made the tenon face cheek cuts on the TS, but did the rest by hand. I really need a shoulder plane! The walls came out nice & plumb.

Thanks
Jonathan

62553

62554

[Mark Singer]

Jonathan,
Excellent results...the sawing by hand takes practice...cut the cheeks first. A bandsaw works well and that is what I usually use

[Andrew Homan]

Modern man has been working wood using tools for 250,000 years...and his more primitive predecessors for another 450,000 years before that. Hand tools only very slightly less sophisticated than ours have been around for 50,000 years, albeit made from lesser materials. A bronze L/N smoother would be instantly recognized in ancient Greece for what it is, as would a cast-iron #8 Bailey jointer in ancient Rome. How much more ignorant and arrogant could I possibly be by calling any procedure this simple, "The Smalser Technique"? ;)

Ahem, interesting that you should mention ignorance and arrogance: you do realize how many years ago those ancient Greek and Roman workers were at work, right? It's nowhere near the 50,000 that you mention, let alone the 700,000 years. I wonder where your sense of history comes from that you feel informed enough to pontificate like this.
-Andy

[Jon Toebbe]

Ahem, interesting that you should mention ignorance and arrogance: you do realize how many years ago those ancient Greek and Roman workers were at work, right?
Whoa, jump back man. I believe Bob was referring to the sorts of tools used by primitive hunter gatherers: stone hand axes, etc. Admitedly, there's a significant difference between a flint knife and even a crudely hammered bronze one, but I believe his point was that "whittlin' is whittlin'," no matter what kind of knife is in your hand.

Personally, I've found Bob's contributions to this forum to be informative and entertaining, and have found his advice (whether he wishes to call his methods "techniques" or not) to be extremely useful.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Come on guys take it easy now. I always look at Bob like a grandpa figure (not that I'm a spring chicken myself but Bob has that kind of air around him), so I take any admonishing he servers in stride, 'cause he sure has taught me a lot of handtool wisdom.

[Jim Dunn]

Come on guys take it easy now. I always look at Bob like a grandpa figure (not that I'm a spring chicken myself but Bob has that kind of air around him), so I take any admonishing he servers in stride, 'cause he sure has taught me a lot of handtool wisdom.

Ahmen, all except that grandpa stuff;) We're to close to the same age. I'll go with the older more experienced brother.:D

[Bob Smalser]

Ahem, interesting that you should mention ignorance and arrogance: you do realize how many years ago those ancient Greek and Roman workers were at work, right? It's nowhere near the 50,000 that you mention, let alone the 700,000 years. I wonder where your sense of history comes from that you feel informed enough to pontificate like this.
-Andy

Oh, it's all nicely summarized here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_man

Learn about tools and wood in the depth you won't get in books and videos, and you'll find Homo erectus using flint to fashion a sharp stick isn't so different from or less sophisticated that chopping mortises.

Mind, I'm not saying do it my way. I never do. I'm saying make yourself a full-sized project using mortises, and by the time you're done, you won't need to be buying any videos showing how to do anything so simple, let alone pontificate about it. ;)

[Andrew Homan]

Mind, I'm not saying do it my way. I never do. I'm saying make yourself a full-sized project using mortises, and by the time you're done, you won't need to be buying any videos showing how to do anything so simple, let alone pontificate about it. ;)

That might be true, but for someone who doesn't get a chance to see someone demonstrate in person, the videos are a good way to start. I imagine that many people here have loads of nearby woodworker acqaintances who make mortise and tenon joints with machines; if you want to learn to do it by hand, there are few neighbors who can demonstrate.

As a side note, as someone with a good deal of experience and training in research, I have to say that if wikipedia is your source of knowledge of history, you might as well be learning _everything_ you know about woodworking from a bunch of videos (which no one here would suggest is a good idea). Wiki is nice for a quick reference, or notes on popular culture, but in topics such as "origin of man", it really is a poor substitute for in-depth study, and it certainly should never be used as the basis for a polemic against other writers. I'm a teacher, and I see teenagers rely on wiki entries to an alarming extent, which has raised my appreciation of the vetting of information that occurs as a result of the standard editing procedures at academic presses and journals. It's a good idea to get a library card and learn about interlibrary loan, if you don't know about it already. The library is also a good place to meet other grandpas! ;) ;) ;)
-Andy
(And I think that in reading you will discover and appreciate more the shift in man's relation to material that came along with the use of bronze and iron, which happened quite late in the game...)

[Bob Smalser]

(And I think that in reading you will discover and appreciate more the shift in man's relation to material that came along with the use of bronze and iron, which happened quite late in the game...)

Sorry. Utter nonsense. ;)

Wooden ships every bit as sophisticated as Lord Nelson's Victory in the 19th Century, let alone Thucydides fleet in 400BC, plied the waves with sewn planks long before the advent of copper, bronze or iron fasteners or tools.

From a similar discussion on how much earlier the technology came about before anyone wrote any of it down:


Modern man as we know him has been around for 250,000 years, and he and his predecessors used sophisticated tools for even longer. Those 6000 or so generations, when put into the perspective of time, were largely spent hunting, fishing and gathering without the benefit of books, just oral history. Beginning in Africa and eventually migrating through the Fertile Crescent into Europe and beyond, man probably built generations of successful carvel boats long before any ancient Greek or later European shipwright wrote anything down about it. Look to Basrah for the origins of carvel construction, not Athens.

http://www.omanet.om/english/culture/images/shasha.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/87/102_0813.jpg/800px-102_0813.jpg

Early boats were skin or reed craft....

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7826382/103242122.jpg

...and simple dugouts that also probably came along very early....logs burned out, then steamed and the sides spread apart using temporary or permanent thwarts. Reed craft were made in pairs so on dried while the other was in use.

http://www.omanet.om/english/culture/images/alhourri.jpg

Later shear planks were added to dugout hulls to increase capacity and economize resources. These were drilled and attached using lashings like the coir (palm tree fiber) in the Omani alhouri shown.

http://www.omanet.om/english/culture/images/albaqrra.jpg

The technology gained from adding planks to logs eventually resulted in the first built-up hulls like this Omani baggrah, and ancient design which economized increasingly-scarce resources but also posed additional technical problems. These carvel planks were also originally lashed using coir, caulked with coir, and painted with fish oil and lime like the later iron-fastened sanbuq shown below. While climate dependent, I'm sure it didn't take very many generations to learn that hulls assembled in the cool, wet season in that part of the world had fewer problems than hulls assembled in the hot, dry season.

http://www.omanet.om/english/culture/images/sanbuq.jpg

http://catnaps.org/islamic/islamimages/dhowdrill.jpg http://catnaps.org/islamic/islamimages/bowdrill.jpg

If you visit today's traditional dhow yards along the Indian Ocean rim, you can still see many of these ancient designs and techniques going together first hand. Including the bow drills used with bone long before anyone smelted the first copper. Note here that the carvel planks going on are fresh compared to the keel....and damp from being stored submerged and wetted down regularly. In their climate, these shipwrights are in a hurry to get that hull planked and in the water before drying becomes severe.

Today you still won't find many books in those yards....but you will find an abundance of patterns and story poles to accompany the oral history of countless generations, not just a generation or two before as our wayward author states.

Putting this in perspective, the first mortises chopped in wood weren't the "innovation" of modern authors, or anything even close, but date far into pre-history....perhaps even to Homo erectus and his sticks. Farther than many care to look, I'm sure, what with so many still requiring training wheels to sharpen their sticks.

[Andrew Homan]

Sorry. Utter nonsense. ;)

Wooden ships every bit as sophisticated as Lord Nelson's Victory in the 19th Century, let alone Thucydides fleet in 400BC, plied the waves with sewn planks long before the advent of copper, bronze or iron fasteners or tools.



"Every bit as sophisticated"??? This is where your argument suffers from overgeneralizations. "Every bit" -- meaning in absolutely every respect, relevant to accomplishing what task? Sorry Bob, but this argument is about as seaworthy as the _Titanic_. Try again.
Not to mention, irrelevant to your notion of woodworking as basically unchanged since pre-historic times.
And none of this changes the fact that in your post on page one of this thread, you basically claim that your method of mortising is good enough, then go on to show example photographs that do indeed resemble something that could be worked with stone tools. (I wonder whether the Barnsleys would ever have chopped mortises looking like that for anything but making a lean-to for drying lumber?) So I think that your argument is overstated, bloated with the need to put down other (calling them ignorant and arrogant). Also, it seems that you are belittling the demonstration via video of a craftman like Frank Klausz; look into how Klausz learned the trade and you'll find an actual history of craftman and the transmission of knowledge, not some vague, Romanticized, and unreflected Orientalist fantasy of the past, coupled with the inability to distinguish it from the present.
-Andy
P.S. I repeat the call for actual reading, rather than the fantasy-history that you seem to enjoy passing off as knowledge; interlibrary loan would be a wonderful thing for you.

[Bob Smalser]

"Every bit as sophisticated"??? This is where your argument suffers from overgeneralizations.

Hardly.

Sailing dhows with sewn planking and lateen rigs of prehistory are every bit as sophisticated technologically as Nelson's square-rigged Victory of the 19th Century. But don't take my word for it....you're an academic...look it up.

Cutting through all the palaver, you're saying that either those dhows are as primitive as the men who built them, or your generation has made a significant contribution to hand tool lore. Histrionics make neither any more correct.

I certainly could have been more tactful in saying that modern authors crediting ancient techniques to other moderns is pure sheep dip....but I do have a case.

[jonathan snyder]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Smalser http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=569897#post569897)
Mind, I'm not saying do it my way. I never do. I'm saying make yourself a full-sized project using mortises, and by the time you're done, you won't need to be buying any videos showing how to do anything so simple, let alone pontificate about it. ;)



That might be true, but for someone who doesn't get a chance to see someone demonstrate in person, the videos are a good way to start. I imagine that many people here have loads of nearby woodworker acquaintances who make mortise and tenon joints with machines; if you want to learn to do it by hand, there are few neighbors who can demonstrate.

I have to agree with Andy here. Although forum based tutorials are informative and helpful, there is nothing like seeing it done in person. If that is not possible, I think a video is the next best thing. Sure I could have grabbed a bunch of valuable lumber, cut and milled it and started wailing away trying to teach myself to cut mortises as Bob suggested, but that is not my way. I prefer to study up on a technique and learn all I can before I start wailing away! I have found that doing it this way gives me a much greater chance of success. I have no mentor to teach me woodworking skills, so the Internet, magazines, books and videos have been my teachers. I consider the money I have spent on magazine subscriptions, books, videos, and my contribution to SawMill Creek to be worth every penny spent, as they provide me with instruction as well as enjoyment. I am learning to use hand tool for the sheer enjoyment of it, an although my mortises and tenons will probably only be seen be me, I want them to look as nice as possible. I want to enjoy the process as much as the end result.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox now!!

Jonathan

[Dave Anderson NH]

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