Is anyone actually using ADA standards?

[Scott Shepherd]

Since I started making ADA signs recently, well, technically, I can't call what I'm making ADA compliant, I've spent some time researching and much more time with my eyes wide open looking around.

If I am reading the ADA standards for signage correctly, all ADA compliant signs must have a pictogram that is at last 6" tall, with letters no less than 5/8" directly under that, with the braille under that, in Grade II braille.

Well that's all and good until my customer brings me a sign frame that's 7" tall by 9" wide and they want it ADA compliant.

With a 7" tall sign, there's not enough room for a 6" pictogram, and then text and braille, all with spacing in it. I end up shrinking it down to look proportional, while keeping the text height 5/8" or more and including the braille.

So I get another job to create a sign insert for an existing sign frame. It's 4" tall, 6 wide. Huh? And the frames were designed my a well known professional sign making company. How am I supposed to make that ADA compliant?

Now, everywhere I go, I look at signs, particularly restroom signs. Haven't seen a single one yet that meets what I read the ADA standards to be. I'm talking major chain stores and restaurants, not just one off shops. Even the restroom signs they sell at Lowes, already made do not meet the requirements.

Am I misreading the code or does the entire world just not care what the code says?

Anyone else noticed this or know more than I obviously do? I asked a contractor about it and he told me that ADA is not a requirement, it's a suggestion, and unless people complain about it, you are free to do as you wish, since it's not the law.

[Joe Pelonio]

First, it IS the law.

Of course the only enforcement being done is on new construction with a building permit, or if someone files a complaint.

Yes, there are many non-compliant signs out there, and I've made some of them. I have also made hundreds of compliant signs, most of them 8"x8".
I just do what the customer wants, and give them a disclaimer if they opt to do it cheaper without being compliant.

My only problem meeting it is the grade 2 braille, but I have found a place that will take my signs and add the braille to them for a reasonable price. The last job was 150+ signs, one place quoted $2,000, this place did them for $200. (that's JUST to add the braille).

[Larry Bratton]

Scott:
First of all read over the information in this link
http://signweb.com/index.php/channel/6/id/1421
Joe is right but the ADA law is actually a civil rights thing. By putting out a non-compliant product, your opening yourself and your customer to the possibility of getting sued. If one of these folks that have a disability comes along and finds your sign and determines it isn't compliant they can and if it's one of the type that look for opportunities to sue the owners of the properties they will do it. Guess what...human waste runs down hill and your at the bottom of it. They will of course bring you along for the ride.

Being in new construction supply, we are finding that the local inspectors also are a lot more knowledgable than they used to be too. I swear some of them just delight in showing their power sometimes. If they notice non-compliance, down it will come and you'll find yourself supplying one that does comply.

If your having trouble with the Braille, I have software with my rotary engraver that makes the translation and punches the proper hole for the balls. I have a license for the patented system. I'll help you if you'll e-mail me. Your in Virginia, right? I was thinking about it and after using my laser some, I think I could come close to making the holes for the raster balls with it. Not sure yet, but I'm going to give it a shot.

[Scott Shepherd]

Thanks Joe and Larry. I've having no problems making them. I'm also making the braille with my laser as well. No issues making the signs, but plenty of issues finding a single ADA sign that passes the test in ANY restaurant or store.

Go to McDonalds, Wendys, Burger King, Hardees, Subway (okay, just kidding about the Subway- after being in all the places named, what would I be doing in a Subway?), Applebees, Ruby Tuesdays, and countless other places I can't remember right now, I have NEVER, and I do mean NEVER seen a full ADA compliant sign.

I see plenty that have the little man or woman with the wheelchair and then braille under it, only that doesn't comply.

I have spoken to the company who own the buildings, and they have told me point blank that they are not required to be ADA compliant UNLESS someone complains. They run their business that way. If someone with a wheelchair complains that their is no automatic door opener, then they will put one in. Without complaints, they do not require any new building construction to comply.

I've asked repeatedly and I have yet to have anyone tell me that any inspector has ever mentioned it, unless it's in the form of a stairwell, etc.

Maybe they just don't care in this part of the country at this point in time.

However, I would have thought for sure that McDonalds, Lowes, Home Depot, my Lawer's Office, the State of Virginia Department of Taxation I visited would have it, but nada.

Next time you're out and about and need to use the potty, have a look at the sign and tell me if it's ADA compliant 100%. 6" pictogram, 5/8" or larger letters, and grade II braille. It's become a mission for me to actually find one now.

[Keith Outten]

Not all ADA compliant signage requires a pictogram, at least that is what I have read. Small door signs would be exempt, the physical size doesn't provide the necessary space to meet ADA requirements however Braile and raised text are required on signs that are within 60 inches from the floor.

Signs above 80 inches from the floor are not required to have braile or raised text but should include pictograms when appropriate such as restrooms, etc.

Logos and company names are not required to be raised text but they must meet the appropriate requirements for color contrast.

A laser engraver will engrave the holes for Raster Braile acrylic balls. It takes a bit of testing to get the speed and power settings just right so that the hole diameter and depth fits the raster balls correctly and provides for 0.031" protrusion above the surface.

.

[Larry Bratton]

Scott:
As far as I know, any space that is a "public accomodation" area is supposed to be ADA compliant. That doesn't mean all spaces in a building. Usually the bathrooms will have to be accessible, that means that the door has to have it least 32" clear (takes a 34" door to accomplish this). The areas for the toilets have to have adequate turn radius for a wheelchair, if their are toilet partitions they must comply with the former items, the closers can't exceed 5lbs of closing force, and the signage has to comply with the regulation. Many companies have handicapped employees and must make facilities accessible. So the areas have to have proper signage and no one is exempt from that. Their may be other areas also, elevators for example. (Braille on the buttons etc.)
The company that tells you they don't have to comply, better read up on it. But in general, any place that is open to the public must be accessible. Hotels, Restaurants, Gas stations, Banks, etc etc etc. If the particular building is not open to the public, then they probably don't have to comply unless they have handicapped employees.
Acid test for compliant signage, check a Federal building of some kind..the government lays out the regulations, so what they have installed would be to spec. (hopefully).

[Scott Shepherd]

Maybe I'm not saying it as clearly as I tried to, I have no issues with it all. I can make the braille and the pictograms just fine, in fact, I did it yesterday.

My question is whether or not all the signs we see in public places, mainly restroom signs, are currently compliant. I went into a brand new restaraunt last night. Not a single ADA compliant sign in sight. Was in a new office building yesterday afternoon. It's been up less than 3 months. No 6" tall pictograms on the bathrooms or the stairwells, no raised letter for permanant spaces, like electrical rooms either.

I'm doing my part. I'm recommending the proper sizes, etc., but I'm having a hard time finding ANY public places that follow the guidelines to the letter.

Are you guys able to walk into a McDonalds and see an ADA compliant restroom sign? I'm not, hence my asking the question.

I know a lot of buildings are grandfathered in, so they don't have to be, but I can't find it in any new places either.

[Joe Pelonio]

Maybe they just don't care in this part of the country at this point in time.

However, I would have thought for sure that McDonalds, Lowes, Home Depot, my Lawer's Office, the State of Virginia Department of Taxation I visited would have it, but nada.


Interesting that Lowe's sells ADA signs but doesn't use them. When I ghet someone asking for just one or two standard ADA signs I send them to Lowe's or Tap Plastics, where they are mass produced but compliant, and cheap.

I've noticed that the few places that I've gotten good ADA orders from are places where there are regular inspections for other reasons, the most recent being a big (new) assisited living facility.

Even the office door nameplates for the administrative staff are compliant.

[Larry Bratton]

I understand the issue completely, BUT those folks are in violation..end of conversation. You can lead a horse to water Scott, but you can't make him drink. Your doing right in telling them, up to them if they don't want to pay heed. I can't imagine a new building designed by and supervised by an architect that doesn't have proper ADA signage for the designated areas.
Good luck with your quest.

[Bart Leetch]

I can't imagine a new building designed by and supervised by an architect that doesn't have proper ADA signage for the designated areas.
Good luck with your quest.


They are out there all over the country.

[Larry Bratton]

Bart:
I must lead a sheltered life. I have been doing new projects for a long time, mainly supply of doors and millwork. I can guarantee you, with no exceptions, on the architecturally supervised projects I have done that they comply. An architect leaves himself open to liability if he doesn't specify correctly. Why would anybody refuse to spend a small amount to comply with the signage if they went to the trouble to make the space accessible? Oh well, your probably right, I'm sure they are lots out there that aren't in compliance but they are a lot that are too. Probably more than not. But I don't go all over the country, so I don't know. I just know what my business has to do.

[Carol VanArnam]

I've been pulling my hair out trying to find all of the ADA rules and pictures to make signs. Does anyone have the pictures or know where I can buy them? There is a braille pen to install the dots but it costs $2000 to buy it along with the kit that comes with it. Has anyone bought the kit? Is it worth it?

What software is everyone using to make the braille? The only program I've found costs $500

[Roy Brewer]

No 6" tall pictograms...Scott,
I suspect some of your frustration might be with the wording. The book Accent Signage includes with their Raster(TM) Braille license clarifies a lot of things for most people.

For instance, the pictogram, if it is used at all, must have a 6" window, not have a 6" height. Also if I recall correctly, the only time the pictogram is actually required is with the phone signs.

[Joe Pelonio]

I've been pulling my hair out trying to find all of the ADA rules and pictures to make signs. Does anyone have the pictures or know where I can buy them? There is a braille pen to install the dots but it costs $2000 to buy it along with the kit that comes with it. Has anyone bought the kit? Is it worth it?

What software is everyone using to make the braille? The only program I've found costs $500

See the link below, and go to page 54, section 4.30. You'll see by the size of the pdf that signage is a very small part of the ADA requirements (2 of 580 pages). I have done a lot of ADA signs but have not bought that system, it's just not worth it when I have a vendor that will add it to my signs for a reasonable price. The last job I did was just over $2,000 (labor only, their materials) and adding the braille cost just over $200.

http://www.ada.gov/adastd94.pdf

[Glenwood Morris]

I can't imagine a new building designed by and supervised by an architect that doesn't have proper ADA signage for the designated areas.


Obviously you never went to a design school next to a bunch of architects.

[Larry Bratton]

Glenwood:
Well No, but I have done a ton of developments over the last 10 yrs and it's my experience that any of them worth their fee know the standards and write them in the specs. Notice I said "supervised". Not all projects buy that service and then it falls to the local inspector. But it should be specified correctly if nothing else and GC's are supposed to follow the specs.

[Keith Outten]

Often an Architectural firm is paid to design a building and has no responsibility to oversee the construction. The range of an Architechs responsibilities can be considerable depending on the customers contract with the Architects firm.

Even if an Architectural firm is paid to oversee a construction project there are inspection agencies that are liable to assure compliance with state and federal laws that include ADA, Fire and Safety inspections. The contractor may or may not be assigned the responsibility of providing signs so there are cases where the General Contractor may be exempt from certain responsibilities. For instance at Christopher Newport University we make our own signs now and have removed all sign requirements from the GC's contracts.

[Larry Bratton]

Keith:
Right. In contracts, many times the signage is part of the deal as an allowance. I get a good many jobs from GCs in that situation. Sometimes it's not included at all and it's the owners responsibility to get it done. Under any circumstance, that doesn't release anybody from following the regulations. If I take a contract to do a sign job on a project, you can bet I am going to follow the regs to the letter. That's my job and I'm supposed to be the expert, but I'm still at the mercy of the "local authority" i.e. inspector, architect etc.

[Keith Outten]

I make it a point to look closely at signs since I make them, checking out the competition and learning from their ideas and mistakes. I have to admit that even though I make ADA signs I have never paid attention to other companies ADA signs since for the most part they are plain and boring flat plastic signs.

I have recently designed a new ADA door sign at CNU that is made from white Corian, mine are CNC routed and laser engraved. Using 1/2" thick material allows us to machine two keyholes in the back for hanging (with adhesive) and hopefully keep them on the walls The dorm I am working on now has none of the original 500 signs left after just two years. The good news is that our new design is much more attractive and costs about 25% of the price we were paying for cheap plastic. With 4,000 door signs to make this is a huge savings for the State.

I will be paying more attention to the new buildings I wander into from now on, particularly to see if they are in compliance with the regulations.

.

[Larry Bratton]

Roy:
Yes, as usual, anything written for or by the Federal Government is confusing. The ADA reg for signage is certainly not very clear.