Water-soluble dyes and wood glue.

[Jules Dominguez]

I'm considering dyeing the entire surfaces of the parts of a piece before assembly, without masking the glue joint areas. I assume that there's nothing in water-soluble dyes that would interfere with gluing the wood after dyeing, but thought I'd ask to be sure. I'd appreciate any comments.

[Steve Schoene]

I don't think there would be any problem.

[Jim Becker]

I agree with Steve. I don't see an issue outside of the fact that you will be re-wetting the dye when you apply glue... 'careful!

[Jim Summers]

Is there a sealer that could be applied after the dye that would not impact glue and prevent the water based dye from getting damaged?

[Steve Schoene]

No, it is a sealer that would have the impact on the glue joint. You can, however, mask the area that will be glued and put sealer on the rest.

[Jim Summers]

No, it is a sealer that would have the impact on the glue joint. You can, however, mask the area that will be glued and put sealer on the rest.


What is the impact? Does the glue not setup or will it seem to be fine and then the joint fails or something?

Thanks

[mark page]

The sealer will keep the glue from making a strong adhesive surface. You need the open pores of the wood for a strong bonding.

[Steve Schoene]

The joint will be much weaker since as Mark says, it never forms all the links it needs for strength. Worse, it might hold together, sort of, so you don't know about strength until it is really tested.

Masking the contact area, and then sealing, gives the opportunity to allow you to rinse off squeeze out without affecting the dye. However, pre-dying only seems really important for things where normal wood movement might reveal an un-dyed area--such as with solid wood panels in frame and panel constructions. But in that case the panels aren't glued. For other situations gluing neatly and cleaning up joints carefully before staining is probably the best. Glue on the surface can be easily detected by wiping down the surfaces with mineral spirits, so you can always know if you have a bit more scraping/sanding to do.

By the way, hide glue takes dye and stain a little better than PVA (white or yellow) glues. Doesn't make glue completely invisible, just reduces the contrast considerably.

[Jim Summers]

The joint will be much weaker since as Mark says, it never forms all the links it needs for strength. Worse, it might hold together, sort of, so you don't know about strength until it is really tested.

Masking the contact area, and then sealing, gives the opportunity to allow you to rinse off squeeze out without affecting the dye. However, pre-dying only seems really important for things where normal wood movement might reveal an un-dyed area--such as with solid wood panels in frame and panel constructions. But in that case the panels aren't glued. For other situations gluing neatly and cleaning up joints carefully before staining is probably the best. Glue on the surface can be easily detected by wiping down the surfaces with mineral spirits, so you can always know if you have a bit more scraping/sanding to do.

By the way, hide glue takes dye and stain a little better than PVA (white or yellow) glues. Doesn't make glue completely invisible, just reduces the contrast considerably.

Cool. Where does hide glue come up short in comparison to, say, yellow glue? It seems the ability to take dye/stain would make it pretty desirable. Availability is the first thing that comes to mind.

What are some good ways to get into an inside corner that is still showing glue residue? I have tried using blocks with sharp edges and sandpaper but still have trouble. I am definitely going to start using the mineral spirits test.

Thanks

[Andrew Williams]

Try a scraper blade, If that fails, a chisel plane. These things will definitely remove the dye too though.

I have pre-dyed stuff and it glued together fine. it did not affect the tone of the dye. I usually put a lot of dye on though. If you are wiping off a lot of squeeze out you might have a problem.

I have used hot hide glue a few times, I think the trouble is getting it on the joints and getting them together before the glue cools off.



Cool. Where does hide glue come up short in comparison to, say, yellow glue? It seems the ability to take dye/stain would make it pretty desirable. Availability is the first thing that comes to mind.

What are some good ways to get into an inside corner that is still showing glue residue? I have tried using blocks with sharp edges and sandpaper but still have trouble. I am definitely going to start using the mineral spirits test.

Thanks

[Steve Schoene]

Liquid hide glue is as strong as PVA and has a long open time, hot hide glue is probably stronger, has a much shorter open time (though it can still be "adjusted" for a while longer.) It's shortfall in use is that it doesn't like high moisture situations--this is an advantage too, since it is straight forward to "unglue" a joint if you need to repair a piece or the like. Under most finishes about the only thing that rules out is steamy bathrooms and exterior applications. Hot hide glue in particular allows making lots of joints without clamps. Rub a glue block into place, or a rub well fitted edge-to-edge joint together and you probably won't need to clamp in order to get an invisible glue line. Part of this is that the hide glue seems to shrink into place, pulling the boards together.

(As a example of hot glue strength, dripping hot glue onto glass can, with the right formulation and technique, pull out glass chips as it dries. This is used to make the glue chip pattern of "obscure" glass.)