TS vs Rail System in a hobby shop [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Charles Wilson

04-08-2007, 10:22 PM

I am not trolling but am asking a serious question.

I would like to buy a TS but am not sure if I can justify the purchase (I am sure you have seen several of my posts about me flip/flopping). Two reasons - safety and safety.

If I do purchase a TS, I think that I am waiting for the SawStop Contractor to come out.

In the mean time, pick your rail system (EZ or FESTOOL) and what can that not do that a TS can do (in a hobby shop)? It seems to me that a rail system can do a variety of things like ultra thin cuts, crosscuts, rips, dados, rabbets, repeated cuts (repeaters on the EZ) and miters.

Again, I am not trying to start problems but am really curious as I am new to WW.

Be gentle.

Regards,
Chuck

Dave Falkenstein

04-08-2007, 11:22 PM

There have been lots of discussions along these lines in the past. To find many of them click on Search and use "Google Sawmill Creek". Enter something like "table saw and (ez or festool). You will get about 7 pages of search hits in Sawmill Creek alone. Happy reading.

Pete Brown

04-08-2007, 11:28 PM

When you say dados, I assume you're talking about using a router. I wouldn't want to use a circular saw for that.

I haven't used Dino's system, but most rail systems are not as accurate for a rip cut as a table saw. Dino's looks promising, though. For other stopped cuts, you can use the Festool system and rails with their MFT or you can go with the EZ system. I would stay away from the ones outside of those two.

I have the Festool TS with rails and a table saw. I use them both, but that may simply be because I have them both. I use my festool for sheet goods. I use my table saw for anything I can safely move across my saw table.

I have the Incra fence on my tablesaw, so I get real accuracy and repeatability with that.

I don't have a tenoning jig, but that is something the table saw can do that the circular saw cannot.

As far as safety goes, well, I've had more close calls with my old (crappy) circular saw than I ever had with a table saw. That saw didn't have enough juice and would bind up and kick back. I had one incident of kickback on my tablesaw (resulting in a bruise on my hip), and have never had my fingers close enough to the blade to get cut.

Safety is good, though, and you only want to use tools you feel safe using. I just don't want you to think that the rail systems are inherently safer, because (IMHO) they are not. Either tool with proper technique can be safe, and either tool with improper technique can be quite dangerous.

Pete

Jim C Bradley

04-09-2007, 12:11 AM

Hi Charles,
I have never had a problem with kick-back with the TS. I have had with the rails. I am VERY safety aware. I have seen too many injuries from stupidity. My stupidity would be that the rail system is awkward and I am much more apt to get my body or the material into a wierd position.
With the TS I am in basically the same position and that position is comfortable, secure and keeps my hands well away from the blade. A twitch of my knee cuts the power. I am never in line with the blade or any work approaching the blade.
I obey the safety rules that previous, sorry, people say we should obey.
Enjoy,
Jim Bradley

russ bransford

04-09-2007, 8:33 AM

David Weaver

04-09-2007, 8:33 AM

I had the same question when I was upgrading my TS - either to not upgrade it if I could get a good rail system, or to upgrade it and get the rail system.

I don't use a TS that much for heavy goods and I usually cut sheet goods on it, and I have experienced nasty kickback, so that was an influence.

I settled on getting a Delta enclosed hybrid saw (36-717), and I have enough left over to still get a rail system - I just haven't decided if I'll spend the money for the festool system or go with the EZ smart system instead.

I can't vouch for the saw that I got because I haven't set it up fully yet, but there are too many things I like to do on a TS that I don't want to relearn on a rail system. I do, however, want the rail system to cut 4x8 panels so I'm not forced to loaf them around in the garage.

I obviously can't make recommendations because I'm in the same position as you, but I can offer my point of view and which direction I went.

Jim Becker

04-09-2007, 8:39 AM

Guided system is great for many things, especially working sheet goods, etc. The TS is a better choice for fine work on small things with a sled, IMHO. The ideal hobbyist shop, in my mine, would have both...a decent table saw and a guided saw system. Granted some of the new products/jigs narrow the gap, but I wouldn't want to be dependent on just a guided system or just a table saw in the long run.

Pete Brown

04-09-2007, 9:00 AM

Charles,
You're getting vague and generic answers. Any search at this point will only add to your confusion. You need specifics. If I can read between the lines, it seems that you have narrowed your search to the EZ with its capabilities of replacing a TS, and a new Sawstop not yet on the market.

From here just try emailing an EZ owner and a Sawstop owner to get answers to direct questions. With EZ and Sawstop adding new items to their lines it will be hard to search in the past to look for companies inventing new solutions today.

RB

He also mentioned Festool. I replied as a Festool owner. If you're talking safety, I think the riving knife in the Festool saw and the completely retracting blade both deserve some mention. I still stand by my comment that neither rail systems nor special table saws are inherently "safe"

Specifics are hard to come by without getting a lot of bias in there, especially when someone has invested a chunk of money (large or small) in a system.

Perhaps some information about what type of work will be done will help narrow down the responses.

Pete

russ bransford

04-09-2007, 9:11 AM

Pete,
This is why I recommended that Charles contact someone directly."I still stand by my comment that neither rail systems nor special table saws are inherently "safe"."(pete) You have just commented on the shortcomings of your 'rail' system. Charles obviously needs the safety and versatility that the newer systems offer.

RB

Glenn Clabo

04-09-2007, 9:14 AM

Chuck,
It's a different mindset that I, along with most people who grew up with table saws, still have a hard time envisioning life without one. However, I am finding I use a TS less and less since I got the EZ system.
To be more specific...I am in the middle of a bathroom redo...built a faceframe built-in vanity...closet...etc. The TS has not been lit off yet. While using sheet goods and rough cherry I have used some handtools, a router, planer, jointer, and circular saw. I haven't built the doors or drawer faces yet...but I don't see any reason to use a TS for them either.
Of course...to each their own...and I really would have a hard time getting rid of my TS. After all I've kept my router table for years...and haven't used it since I got the WoodRat.

Andrew Williams

04-09-2007, 9:46 AM

I make my own straight-lining guides for the circular saw or router. Use MDF since you can get a dead-flat factory edge if you get a good piece. Without a table saw it's tough to rip a piece to proper width, but with two pieces of MDF you could use one for the initial rip fence. I make them with hardboard underneath to support the base of the circular saw all the way to the kerf line. Just pass the saw through once to cut the hardboard flush. Then when you use the guide system, just align to hardboard edge with your cut line.

http://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=62003&d=1176051406

that is a pic of my workbench with one of these straight-lining jigs up against the wall. Pretty simple but they work well.

Randal Stevenson

04-09-2007, 10:04 AM

If all your doing is ripping/crosscutting sheet goods, a sawboard would do for you.

The rails systems do give much more benefit. The issue of the thickness of the wood is being addressed with different saw options in both systems.

As for safety, your only as safe as the operator. Dino has posted a picture of something I still consider unsafe. To display how the saw follows the rails, he holds one up and cuts along it. The rail isn't clamped down, and all one would have to do is trip (or for those of you with kids, have one of them, be a kid and ignore your rules, and run in and grab you) and something bad could happen.

I too am not ready to give up my other equipment, due to already having it (it's paid for), and others belief's, it's unsafe (if I have something I consider unsafe, why would I pass it on?) But for either the home hobbiest/diy'er or someone with as small as shop as I have (6' ceiling), I can see a guide system replacing 90% of ones needs.

Ken Fitzgerald

04-09-2007, 10:18 AM

I think each has it's own intrinsic advantages with a lot of crossover between both. A well supplied shop will have both. JMHO

skip coyne

04-09-2007, 10:23 AM

own both , havent used the tablesaw at all since I got the EZ (about a year )

not quite ready to get rid of TS

Barry Anderson

04-09-2007, 12:03 PM

I've a small shop, too ... and I find that I need both. The saw with the rail system (I've a Festool TS55) comes in handy for cutting down sheet goods and cutting longer boards to shorter stock for easy handling in my smallish shop (12'x21'). HOWEVER, I really need the table saw for cutting smaller parts. The circular saw is useless on these. It's pretty hard to cut a piece of 6"x4" stock on the rail system. Also, joinery cuts are the exclusive domain of the table saw. If you feel you won't need a TS ... don't get one. When you find yourself in a corner, you can get one of the smaller table top saws made by Bosch or Dewalt to get yourself through.

I don't feel that the TS is any more dangerous than my circular saw. Every tool takes attention when you use it to avoid injury. Don't feel that you can make your shop safer by buying tools which do not require diligence in their use. There are none. I've injured myself with my drill on several occasions. It's for people like me that they put instructions on a ladder. :D

Barry in WV

Al Willits

04-09-2007, 12:35 PM

Think room and cost, if you have lots of room and money the festool system is great, also expensive.
If you need something that doesn't take up so much room and is less spendy, the EZ will do just fine.
fwiw I have the Delta Hybrind TS and the EZ, money and room were a issue with me.

Al

Ted Miller

04-09-2007, 12:41 PM

Charles, I just invested in the Festool saw with guide and yes more tools followed with this system. I still use my table saw on a daily basis and the guided system is great as well for daily use. I mainly bought the guided system for tearing down full sheet stock as it was getting old fighting 4x8 sheets on my TS by myself. I do not know why I did not get a guided system earlier and now I don't think I could work without one. My TS is still the main workhorse of my shop but it all depends on the project I am doing at that particular time. I am sure with either the EZ or the Festool you will be more than happy with your purchase and you will be able to accomplish many tasks safely and accurately with either system...

Charles Wilson

04-09-2007, 2:53 PM

Ted Miller

04-09-2007, 3:03 PM

Charles, There is a 2 1/2 gallon bag capacity difference from the CT 22 to the 33. I have the 22 and it works great for the Festool tools that I have, the Jigsaw, Domino are 99% dust free...

Dan Clark

04-09-2007, 3:13 PM

Initially, i was thinking a 3 HP saw from Grizzly (1023SL). However, having an EZ has detered me for the time being. I was looking at the contractor versions that Griz has (G0555) and the HD (TS3650) saw and for my needs this may be enough saw. With the extra money, I could buy some more tools (eyeing the Festool Rotex 125 sanders with the CT 22/33 (opinions on the vacs).

Regrds,
Chuck
Chuck,

I have several of the Festool tools, but I believe the MFT and vac are the core of the system. The MFT is a great place to work and vacs make the whole thing pretty much dust-free.

For high-volume production work where you run a lot of wood through your shop, the CT33 is probably the best choice. If you're not doing high volume, IMO the CT22 is the best choice. Also, you might want to think about the CT Boom Arm. It pretty much elminates the hassle of dragging hoses and cords around.

Regards,

Dan.

John Seiffer

04-09-2007, 3:22 PM

I think a lot of it has to do with how much space you have. Most hobby shops don't have room to build all the infeed/outfeed tables you'd need to cut sheet goods safely on a table saw.

I have a Ryobi 3100 Table Saw and an EZ Guide. My shop is not only small but shaped strangely so it's hard to even move full sheets around. Hence the Ryobi - it's a very good little saw for the size (and the money). And it's complicated by my dust control - since tools move around, I can't run hard ducts everywhere so I have to move that around too.

So what I find makes the difference in which tool I use is the set up time for that particular cut, relative to what I've just been doing. Especially on small cuts - sure the EZ could make cuts on a 6x4 piece but since I don't have room to leave the table set up I usually do stuff like that on the table saw. Same for repeat cuts. I don't have the repeater so I use the table saw. But if it's a large piece (not even a full sheet) I find it's easier (not to mention safer) to get the EZ table set up and cut that way.

I think if I had more room to leave things set up tools, the EZ table and dust control - then I'd probably use the table saw a lot less.

As people have been saying, depends on your situation.

paidin fain

04-09-2007, 6:21 PM

I have the craftsman 22124 and the EZ smart system. I just moved into my new house in February and have not plugged in my table saw yet. I have been using my EZsmart to cut down my white oak and cherry lumber to fit in my garage (only have 10' ceilings and store them vertically). I have also just finished cutting decking and side rails for my new HF foling trailer. All of this was done with my EZ Guide.

I am tempted to sell my tablesaw but where would I put all of my tools when the workbench top is full? :D

All jokes aside, I am planning on building a dining room table and I may need to use the tablesaw to rip the legs. I will use the jointer, 12" SCMS, bandsaw, planer etc... to get the job done. The EZ is gonna have to fight with the tablesaw when it comes to ripping the top parallel though but it WILL win when the time comes to cut the edge of the top to final dimensions.

BTW, with all of the attachments, I think I will need the tablesaw less and less (like ripping parallel) but that would cost more than my tablesaw when I bought it new :) I wonder if Dino would take my tablesaw in trade for the rest of the EZ Smart line of attachments? :)

paidin

Jeff Kerr

04-09-2007, 6:37 PM

Interesting question. I too have thought about this as well.

I started with a cheap job site saw. Wanted to move up so I bought a cabinet saw. Then the tools started to take over the garage space. next thing you know I am building a dedicated shop....:D

It's great to have the space, but can you do the same if you don't? I recently followed one of the projects over woodshopdemos.com and was surprised to see him use the TS to resaw some 2 by for a silverware chest. I would not have thought you could do that with a rail system.

Just maybe you can use the rail system of your choosing and not need the dedicated table saw.

Let us know how it turns out.

Nissim Avrahami

04-09-2007, 7:00 PM

Hi Charles

Since you asked about hobby shop, I'm an amateur and I have 3 CS's, two homemade Saw boards and a 100" aluminum straight edge that will "cover" any 4' x 8' ply or melamine plate.

I rarely use the CS's because most of my work is with 1¼~1½" Oak.
So, it depends, if you are working mostly with ply/melamine/MDF plates the CS is very useful but if you work with solid wood and you want more precision, I think that the TS is better.

I don't feel any danger when I'm working on the TS because as an amateur, I have all the time in the world to set-up the best safety precautions that I can.
I'm always using the Riving knife, guard (there is nothing to see how the blade is cutting the wood), Feeder rollers, Hold-down rollers and Push shoes (not sticks).

On the pic you can see all the "equipment" and I'm very relaxed, it's like on a Thicknesser, I push from one side and get the finished product on the other side (I believe that nobody removes the Thicknesser cover to "see" how the blades are cutting...).

Of course, if one is planning in advance to remove the Splitter, guard etc, the TS is very dangerous tool.

Regards
niki

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Glass%20table/001.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Glass%20table/002.jpg

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t104/nanikami/Glass%20table/024.jpg

Pete Brown

04-09-2007, 7:38 PM

Nissim, I think I see Vincent from the Black Hole in the corner of your shop, or maybe that is R2D2 ;)

62135

BTW, love that table saw setup, especially the rollers

Pete

Tom Cowie

04-09-2007, 8:07 PM

Dino Makropoulos

04-09-2007, 8:52 PM

All jokes aside, I am planning on building a dining room table and I may need to use the tablesaw to rip the legs. I will use the jointer, 12" SCMS, bandsaw, planer etc... to get the job done. The EZ is gonna have to fight with the tablesaw when it comes to ripping the top parallel though but it WILL win when the time comes to cut the edge of the top to final dimensions.

Paidin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAkWQjVL-Rw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYMvynCo8c4

BTW, with all of the attachments, I think I will need the tablesaw less and less (like ripping parallel) but that would cost more than my tablesaw when I bought it new :) I wonder if Dino would take my tablesaw in trade for the rest of the EZ Smart line of attachments? :)

paidin

The Bridge is going to lower the overall cost of the ez system.
and works with all rail systems, tables and workbenches. :cool:

Burt Waddell

04-09-2007, 9:43 PM

Charles,

One point that no one has made yet is that there is a learning curve involved with any tool. I bought my first table about 30 years ago. I've only owned the EZ about 18 months. At this point I am much closer to reaching my potential with the Table saw than I am the EZ. But I am absolutely convinced that the EZ is a better way of doing things. This new bridge system is going to make a tremendous difference.

Like the majority of experienced woodworkers I was fat, dumb and happy with my unisaws. I just wanted an easier way to deal with large heavy sheets of plywood. Once I used the EZ for the Plywood, I started to see how it could work just as well with hardwood.

I don't understand this problem with cutting small pieces on the rails. I run a small cabiney shop and sell wood to several of the local craftsmen. Bob is a regular customer. When he came into the shop I was working on a new bridge setup specifically designed for job site work. I positioned a 5/6" x 3/4" piece of oak about 12" long under the rail. It was ripping it along the 5/16" side. At this point the wood is held only by the plastic insert. I had a Makita 5007FA set on the rail and told Bob to make the cut. He was rather amazed. Then I had him cut a 3/4" x 3/4" piece off the piece he had just ripped. Then I had him place that over the saw kerf and make it into 2 triangles. He left telling me the couple of things he had to do before he could order one.

A few days later, Jack came in to pickup some walnut that he had ordered. He had seen us processing plywood on an earlier visit and seemed to be impressed. I put another 5/16" piece of oak under the rail and ripped it. His immediate response was, "Boy, that would be great for cutting tambour for a roll top desk." He looked at the cut and asked what blade that was, I showed him that it was a 24 tooth Makita blade that came with the saw. He said, "That is a nice cut". "Where do I get one of these?" He left with Dino's phone number.

I find it interesting in this thread that a number of EZ owners say they no longer use their table saws. I believe that all of the Festool owners said they had to have both. Could be because the EZ Smart was designed to replace table saws and the Festool was designed to supplement table saws?

With the advent of the bridge, the EZ reaches a totally new level.

Burt

Charles Wilson

04-09-2007, 10:03 PM

One point that no one has made yet is that there is a learning curve involved with any tool.

This is the sticking point for me. I am a novice. Any tool (other than the basics), is intimidating for me as I have limited problem solving skills with a number of tools due to my limited experience.

What is a guy to do?

Chuck

Dino Makropoulos

04-09-2007, 10:22 PM

This is the sticking point for me. I am a novice. Any tool (other than the basics), is intimidating for me as I have limited problem solving skills with a number of tools due to my limited experience.

What is a guy to do?

Chuck

Charles.
Visit a machine shop.
Take a look at all their machines. They all have vises.
1. Clamp the wood.
2. Guide your tool on a track.

Nothing to it if you follow the Dead Wood Concept...with any tool.
Another thread today deals with cut-offs on the CMS.
Clamp the cut-off.

You have any questions about the fences? I make a video dealing with fences. Nothing to it if you follow the basics.
Clamp and track.

Call me if you have any problems.

Charles Wilson

04-09-2007, 10:32 PM

I would like to see a video.

I know that with a rail, cutting one picket would be no problem. I was wondering about mass production of the pickets. I'm sure you could tell me how the repeaters can do it (which I know they can). Interested to see the Bridge do it.

Thanks,
Chuck

Burt Waddell

04-09-2007, 10:34 PM

This is the sticking point for me. I am a novice. Any tool (other than the basics), is intimidating for me as I have limited problem solving skills with a number of tools due to my limited experience.

What is a guy to do?

Chuck

Chuck.

None of us are experts with the EZ system - we're all learning because it is a relative new tool. On the EZ forum we all help each other.

Also, you are looking for safety. The dead wood concept is safer than a table saw. With the dead wood concept, the wood is stationary and the tool is moved along a rail - your hands don't get near the blade. The EZ is the only tool designed to comply with the dead wood concept.

Burt

Pete Brown

04-09-2007, 10:56 PM

The dead wood concept is safer than a table saw. With the dead wood concept, the wood is stationary and the tool is moved along a rail - your hands don't get near the blade. The EZ is the only tool designed to comply with the dead wood concept.

Burt,

Wouldn't any rail system comply with the dead wood concept?

Pete

Dino Makropoulos

04-09-2007, 11:06 PM

Allen Bookout

04-09-2007, 11:06 PM

TS vs Rail System. The correct answer for me is TS plus Rail System. If you bought a preowned quality cabinet saw and the basic EZ plus the square you would have the best of both worlds and have money left over for the cost of the SawStop.

I think that the table or cabinet saw is safe enough if you follow some basic rules. Proper setup, use sleds and large push blocks, stay out of the way of kickbacks (although rare with a proper setup) and if a procedure does not feel safe just find another way to do it.

By using both it will not take you long to figure what is best for you.

Burt Waddell

04-09-2007, 11:18 PM

Burt,

Wouldn't any rail system comply with the dead wood concept?

Pete

Pete,

To be honest I don't know enough about a lot of the rail systems and exactly how they secure the materials being cut to answer that. I do know that Dino used this concept as the center point for designing the EZ.

Burt

Dan Clark

04-09-2007, 11:25 PM

Burt,

Educate me... Unless I'm mistaken, EZ only makes guide rails. There are other companies that make higher rated guide rail systems including Festool and Hart Design (Red-line Cutting Guide). Both were rated higher than EZ in a recent guide rail review in October/November 2006 issue of Fine HomeBuilding.

Further, virtually every tool that Festool makes is based on the stationary wood concept. In fact, the vast majority of woodworking tools ever made by ANY company are based on that concept. Any circular saw is based on that concept. Planes, chisels, hand saws, drills, routers not mounted in tables - ALL are based on the stationary wood concept.

Since the first woodworker that picked up a flint ax (I think his name was "Og") about 3 million years ago, stationary "dead" wood has been the basis for most woodworking. Don't you think it's a bit of a (LONG) stretch to say that "...EZ is the only tool designed to comply with the dead wood concept."

Hmmm...

I'll let you think about that for awhile. Y'all have a nice day now.

Dan.

Burt Waddell

04-09-2007, 11:50 PM

Dino Makropoulos

04-10-2007, 12:17 AM

Burt,

Educate me... Since the first woodworker that picked up a flint ax (I think his name was "Og") about 3 million years ago, stationary "dead" wood has been the basis for most woodworking. Don't you think it's a bit of a (LONG) stretch to say that "...EZ is the only tool designed to comply with the dead wood concept."

Dan.
Dan.
Your intentions are very clear.
I hope the moderators can see thru this and take over this forum from you and others like you.

Here is a good education for you.

DWC DEAD WOOD CONCEPT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYMvynCo8c4

Non Dead Wood Concept.
http://www.idealtools.com.au/category3893_1.htm

Enjoy.

Dan Lautner

04-10-2007, 12:50 AM

The Festool saws and blades are absolute precision industrial equipment. The rails are designed to be lightweight and dead straight with very little thickness giving a 2 3/4" cut depth with the ts75 . You can cut dead accurate angles/ bevels on the zero clearance edge (can not do with EZ). The saw has a spring loaded riving knife making it impossible to have kickback from binding behind the blade. The blade is never exposed and instantly retracts if the saw comes off the work piece. The saw can plunge cut. The plunge is the only type of cut that can cause kick back and takes a bit of practice to master. Dust collection is excellent. I have the ts55 and 75 and they have payed for themselves ten times over already. The Domino is the real gem of the festool line and has made the floating tenon lighting fast, deadly accurate and almost dummy proof.

Dan

paidin fain

04-10-2007, 1:26 AM

oh boy! here it goes! Let me get another thing in before the thread gets deleted :)

I am coming from a hobbiest point of view. I own straight guides from woodline. They work fine for straight edges but were too thick for my CS to use as an edge guide along the baseplate of the CS. I wanted a precision system for breaking down sheet goods and studied up on the EZ system and the festool system. I would say that they both are probably excellent systems as crappy systems only spawn one or two zealots. In my research, I found that both systems had their share of fans.

More research showed me that both were capable systems but one was much easier to get into. Sometimes, us hobbiests can only afford to peicemeal our tool collections. Sometimes, there are hobbiests who are loaded and get unisaws from the start. I fall in the first category and because of this, I looked at the festool ez debate from an ease of entry point of view. Both sides had very good pros and cons. For my needs (breaking down sheet goods, safely and quickly jointing long boards, making SAFE and accurate tapers) the ez guide was easiest to get into $110 and I could use my existing crappy skil saw.

The festool would have costed me a ton more money ($400+? )

Back to the original poster, if I were in your shoes, I would look at the projects you think you will be working on and decide from there which way you should start off:
-cabinets, casework, built ins, stuff with lumber < ~1.5" go with a guided system

-gothic furniture, stuff with 4" legs etc... maybe get a 12" tablesaw from the get go :)

paidin

Keith Outten

04-10-2007, 1:32 AM

A circular saw is a very dangerous tool when it is hand held. Most of my friends who have suffered serious accidents all were using a circular saw. A circular saw that is used in conjunction with a guide rail system is a different tool all together, the majority of the issues that make a circular saw dangerous are not applicable when the saw is guided and supported by a solid rail system.

A table saw with a 3 to 5 horse power motor is also a dangerous tool. Modern cabinet saws with improved drive systems will kick back lumber at incredible speeds and it is not a question of if it will happen but when. If you use a table saw long enough you will most likely experience some kind of kickback. as careful as you may try to be there are other variables that come into play such as the lumber and whether it has internal stresses that tend to cause problems when it is trapped between a saw blade and a fixed fence.

I honestly believe that recent improvements in guided CS systems are making them safer and they will soon be more accurate than many table saws. For a hobby woodworker the guide systems are honestly worth some serious research before purchasing an expensive table saw and are already a better choice than any of the less expensive table saws with poor quality rip fences.

Although I am unwilling to give up my table saw after 30 years or using them I am in the process of dismantling mine. Specifically I recently removed my 62" slider that was mounted on the left side and will remove the 50 inch extension table on the right side very soon. Instead of taking up 25% of my shops floor space I intend to place my table saw on a mobile base and store it in a corner to recoup the valuable floor space it has occupied for many years.

I can't say that I recommend this to anyone else but it works for me in my particular situation that is based on the type of work I am doing these days. I also own a very large CNC router that has taken over many of the tasks I used to do with my table saw and of course a CS guided rail system that I am growing more fond of every week.

.

Pete Brown

04-10-2007, 7:06 AM

Here is a good education for you.
Non Dead Wood Concept.
http://www.idealtools.com.au/category3893_1.htm

FWIW, this is not available in the US. B&D did something similar (but even crappier) where they made a pasteboard table you could mount their circular saw to, upside down. It was ... scary.

I think a European slider like the MM S315 comes really close to the dead wood concept. I also agree that even the SawStop is definitely not dead wood - or dead hotdogs :)

This is the Festool tool that follows the dead wood concept and compares most closely with the EZ systems discussed on this thread (videos near the bottom of the page)
http://www.festoolusa.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=9&prodid=492652

Pete

Charles Wilson

04-10-2007, 7:16 AM

3/4 x 2-1/2 x 31" for the pickets if you could please. :rolleyes:

Chuck

Charles Wilson

04-10-2007, 7:22 AM

Lets not turn this into a contest between the two systems. Both have their merits and that is that. Let's play nice. No Flaming.

I have a serious question and am only looking for an answer on Guide Systems in general and if they can replace/delay the purchase of a TS.

Thanks,
Chuck

Charles S Wilson

04-10-2007, 7:50 AM

Saw stop can only protect you from one of the many perils of a TS. As mentioned by others in this thread, kickback potential needs to be anticipated when you make certain types of cuts. I'm beginning to think that an essential table saw safety accessory should be a cup.

CSW

Jim Becker

04-10-2007, 8:04 AM

Play nice, folks...we would really like to not have to close this thread to posting. The OP's question was about the merits of a guided saw system in a hobbyist woodworking shop. Let's stick to that topic and stop any sniping between fans of particular systems.

Jim
SMC Moderator

Allen Bookout

04-10-2007, 8:11 AM

I'm beginning to think that an essential table saw safety accessory should be a cup.

CSW

There you go Charles. That would be a good accessory to sell at WW Shows.

Jim Becker

04-10-2007, 8:14 AM

I'm beginning to think that an essential table saw safety accessory should be a cup.

'Depends upon how tall you are and how tall your saw is... ;) But let's hope that you don't need that kind of protection. The most important safety practice is to "engage your brain" before you cut with any tool. And that includes choosing which tool in your arsenal to use for a particular operation.

Randal Stevenson

04-10-2007, 8:19 AM

I have a serious question and am only looking for an answer on Guide Systems in general and if they can replace/delay the purchase of a TS.

Thanks,
Chuck

It can definately delay the tablesaw (I missed that, thought you only meant replace). That can put you ahead of the game in figuring out needs and whether you will stick with it, or other hobbies take over in life (kids, job, etc).
The two things I still think it doesn't really compete in, are a jointer and a planer. I do have a Bosch planer that can/is used with the EZ, but you still need a Jointer to flatten one face before running through a planner (quicker then a sled setup).

Al Willits

04-10-2007, 8:38 AM

Charles, ya didn't say or I missed it, but what are you gonna be doing with this stuff and how much money did ya want to spend, might make a difference?

Also remember this is close to a Ford Chevy thing, and there are those who wouldn't use anything but a Ford or Chevy, if ya get my drift.
Might think brand obsession here....:)

I've had a chance to use both the EZ and festool, I think both will do just about anything the other will, I did like the table set up the festool had, but I don't have room for it and I'm not sure if it'll cut 4x8 sheets of plywood both ways, just used it cutting the 4' lenght, but it sure was nice.
The EZ is nice because it can be easily stored, and is cheaper.
You'll probably be happy with either, consider cost and room and go from there maybe.

To bad ya weren't closer, you could come and try my EZ and see what ya think, maybe there's someone close who has either the EZ or Festool system???

Either way, good luck.

Al

Bart Leetch

04-10-2007, 9:16 AM

This is the sticking point for me. I am a novice. Any tool (other than the basics), is intimidating for me as I have limited problem solving skills with a number of tools due to my limited experience.

What is a guy to do?

Chuck

Jump in with both feet read, ask questions & get more experience. Its a way of life. You can sit back & him & haw all day long at the end of the day you have a bunch of hims & haws but nothing else but limited experience.With more experience comes more skills to solve problems.:)

Charles Wilson

04-10-2007, 10:21 AM

"Charles, ya didn't say or I missed it, but what are you gonna be doing with this stuff"

As far as projects go this Spring, Summer, and Fall I am pretty ambitious:

1) Picket Fence for the yard. Popular mechanics plan.

2) Sandbox for the kids (Norm's Plans)

3) Router Table (Norm's Plans)(although i might buy one. someone had mention a Woodpecker that has adjustable height. since I am 6'4" this might be an option)

4) Some basic cabinets and workshop stuff

5) Some wooden replacement storms for the house.

"how much money did ya want to spend, might make a difference"

I am the CFO of the household. What I want to spend and what I am going to spend are two different things.

At the very least, I was looking at a lunchbox thinkness planer (DeWalt) and possibly a Rotex with vacuum for refinishing some stairs and our front door. Maybe a TS or maybe the EZ Bridge or Repeaters.

Thanks,
Chuck

Dino Makropoulos

04-10-2007, 12:43 PM

FWIW, this is not available in the US. B&D did something similar (but even crappier) where they made a pasteboard table you could mount their circular saw to, upside down. It was ... scary.

Pete.
The smaller tablesaws are the most dangerous.
Not enough table to support the materials.

I think a European slider like the MM S315 comes really close to the dead wood concept. I also agree that even the SawStop is definitely not dead wood - or dead hotdogs :)

The EU sliding saws are much safer than regular tablesaws but not 100% safe. A sawstop EU slider with a ripping module-jig can be safe.

with
This is the Festool tool that follows the dead wood concept and compares most closely with the EZ systems discussed on this thread (videos near the bottom of the page)
http://www.festoolusa.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=9&prodid=492652

Pete
No question about that. The MFT follows the DWC.
Try to find ways to use the MFT more and more.

But I know first hand that we're lazy and we're looking for the easy-quick answers. The tablesaw looks so easy. Same with the SCMS and CMS.
If you have to use this tools, remember tha DWC and work like a machinist.

Andrew Williams

04-10-2007, 1:04 PM

Chuck, if you want to stop by my shop I can show you a few things. I don't have a store-bought guide (I make my own) but I do have TS, BS, Planer, Router Table, SCMS, Drill Press, and a bunch of other stuff, mostly hand tools.

I don't know if anyone locally has chimed in yet who has the guide systems.

Dan Clark

04-10-2007, 1:17 PM

Andrew,

Since you have several tools that could be used to cut a bunch of picket fence boards, which would you use:

- Circular saw + guide rail?
- Table saw?
- Miter saw?

Regards,

Dan.

Nissim Avrahami

04-10-2007, 2:59 PM

Good day

I thought that maybe it's a good idea to show the UK (actually, EU), TS safety regulation.

Because its a PDF file, I took the time to "Capture" it and post it as pics.

I highlighted a few parts in yellow.

Please note that the TS made in EU or made for the EU market must obey those regulations.

In general,
Short Rip fence (note the location on the pic, around the half of the blade, so, if internal stresses are released, the wood will not be pressed against the blade).

Riving Knife (not splitter that was dropped already at the 70th).

Blade brake, that will stop the blade rotation within 10 seconds.

Blade guard must be installed for all TS operations.

My TS is German made (Metabo) and includes all those features.

The US made TS's (or made for the US market) are coming as a standard with long fence.

I think that one of the causes for a good Kickback, is ripping with long fence, I'm not talking about ripping 1" out of 12" wide board but, 5~7" that can release internal pressures and......
A simple solution can be, adding or clamping short fence to the long one.

Regards
niki

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/avrahami/HSE/Hse1.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/avrahami/HSE/She2.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/avrahami/HSE/She3.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/avrahami/HSE/She4.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/avrahami/HSE/She5.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/avrahami/HSE/She6.jpg

Andrew Williams

04-10-2007, 3:21 PM

That would depend on the condition of the stock from which I were ripping the picket fence boards.

First crosscut all pieces to approximate length on the SCMS

If it were badly crooked (edge warp) then I would straight-line rip it on the guide rail. If straight, I go right to the TS. Would not bother to joint it since it's for an outdoor fence.

After this I set my fence for width. Rip every piece on TS one after the other.

Finally take them all to SCMS, make a stop-block and set saw to 45 degrees... Cut first cut on all pieces...reset stop block if necessary...cut second cut to make the gable shape for the fence pieces.

Done

Andrew,

Since you have several tools that could be used to cut a bunch of picket fence boards, which would you use:

- Circular saw + guide rail?
- Table saw?
- Miter saw?

Regards,

Dan.