general vs. general international.

["Jason Belous"]

The time has come to replace some of the shop tools due to age and condition. My question is as follows I am a pretty big powermatic man. Most of the equipment other than some old iron is all powermatic but for some reason i've taken a liking to general tools lately. My question is since i've got alot of good feed back from some tradesmen on the brand "general" it's self, what is the deal with "general International"? Is this a cheaper line that would not have been made in canada? I know the price is lower so some options are missing. So the big question is should I stay away from the general international or am I still getting a pretty decent product say compariable to a jet? Any general info on this line would be great, where it's made, quality comparison, etc.
Thanks,
Jason.

[scott spencer]

Hi Jason - I think you've got the GI line accurately assessed. It's General's foreign made line...most made in Taiwan and possibly China. Not quite at the level of the Canadian made General line, but certainly competitive with Jet, Grizzly, some PM, Shop Fox, etc.

[Roy Harding]

"General" machines are made in Canada. They are well made, well machined, and quality tools.

"General International" are poorly made, abominably machined, and garbage tools. They are, for the most part, made in China.

Even my wife (who knows absolutely nothing about tools) was able to spot the difference at a tool show we attended together. There were two jointers side by side - one a General, and the other a General International. The first thing she picked up on was the price difference (General tools command a healthy price tag - General International not so much). Then she noticed that the General jointer had a cast iron frame and table - the General International was stamped steel. And the list went on.

Although some accountant somewhere probably thinks that adding the "General International" brand to their product line makes sense (getting the reputation of General tools to reflect upon a sub-standard line), I think General made a terrible mistake. Too many (hobbyist type) people that I know bought a General International piece of garbage, thinking it was a "General" - a brand I highly recommend.

My advice?? Stay far away from General International. General, on the other hand, makes fine machines, which hold their own with anything else I can think of, including Powermatic, Grizzly, and the like.

[Jim Hager]

I have two of the GI machines and I want to respectfully disagree with what has been said about them being lower quality. In fact the GI drum sander I have is a great machine, I had a Grizzly drum sander and that for sure was a piece of stuff not needing to be mentioned.:rolleyes: I never ever was so badly dissappointed with a machine in my life.

When I got my GI sander I had already had some experience with the GI line when I bought a 89" horizontal belt sander. It is not the Lexus of the sanders but in my opinion it is better hands down than any of the Grizzly stuff I've seen. It in fact is the same machine offered by Jet and Powermatic. I ordered the drum sander sight unseen and I have been very pleased with it. By the way I produce somewhere around 250 rp red oak or maple doors each month, and the drum sander is used as a major part of the production.

[Mike Furness]

General International is made in Taiwan not China.Quality is not the same as general,But some of it is not bad. Some Schools are using the G.I. machines in Canada and they are holding up very well.
Here's a little Relish to go along with the Mustard and Mayo.

[Roy Harding]

Jim:

No disrespect intended - as I've said in other threads it's not the brand name that matters - it's what you get for the price, and whether it will do the job intended or not.

Heck - I've got some Black and Decker (and Canadian Tire and Jobmate) stuff that does the job I need them to do admirably - they're all low demand, occasional use tools.

I did not mean to maligne GI - if they're what you're after, that's great. I DID mean to differentiate between GI and General - the two are of entirely different quality.

I'm in a professional setting - I can't afford to have my main tools (including my TS) be anything less than 100% accurate and reliable. I forget sometimes that many here are hobbyists who use (and abuse) their machines much less than I do.

You are right - if the GI does the job for which it is intended, for a price you can handle, then, by definition, it is a "good" tool.


Roy

[Roy Harding]

General International is made in Taiwan not China.Quality is not the same as general,But some of it is not bad. Some Schools are using the G.I. machines in Canada and they are holding up very well.
Sorry Mike - but I strongly disagree with "holding up very well" in a school setting. As far as Taiwan/China goes - I believe you are correct, and I was mistaken when I said China earlier.

I last attended a school in 2005 - NAIT (Northern Alberta Institute of Technology) in Edmonton, Ab.

There were, indeed, some GI tools there (TS and bandsaws that I recall off the top of my head) - and the technicians employed by the school were constantly fixing or "tweaking" them. I became close friends with a couple of the "techs" - who did not like them. They did not (in the tech's opinions) stand up well to the abuse that is handed out in a school environment. The more experienced students also steered clear of them whenever possible - too many "quircks" and "irregularities".

On the other hand - as I said in a different message on this thread - if they meet your purpose, and fit your budget - great. I doubt that anybody on this board would abuse their tools to the extent that students at a technical school do. Single user tools tend to be better maintained, and used more "gently" than tools which exist in an industrial setting.

I STILL think that General made a mistake using the "General" name in a lower quality line - the confusion between the two brands can lead some to sorrowful decisions.


Roy

[John Gornall]

I don't think any General International Jointer has a "stamped steel" frame and table - mine doesn't.

I chose mine because the tables and fence had superior machining to other jointers in it's price range.

No, it's not a top of the line Canadian made General but the General International sure isn't junk.

Have a look for "stamped steel" which you won't find here:

http://www.general.ca/pagetitre/ang/jointers.html

["Jason Belous"]

Thank you for your passionate responses. I did not mean to start a brand war, here at all. Let me state that I do run a professional production shop. We house alot of 3 phase equipment so I am definantly after quality over quanity when it comes to tools. However I was very unfamiliar with the brand "General" in general. So after hearing some good stuff about "general" I started researching the company and could not figure out why the company was divided, after all a general international can still run you as much as a jet, or delta. We all have our personal tool choices and loyalties, I myself would never buy anything from harbor freight or sears, and yet a huge percentage of woodworkers here strictly buy their. Lets keep in mind that we all do woodworking for the love of the craft and for no reason other and that is what is great about the trade, so when someone belittles another tool brand they are just voicing their opinion, after all, someone telling me that they think something is crap actualy really does help me, and someone coming to the defense of that tool also helps me. Thank you for all of your opinions and experiences.
I will probably stick with powermatic due to the fact that it is a production shop and we do tear up some tools, but I would also probably recommend general international to a small scale woodworker who wanted to stay in a budget, probably even over grizzly, bears scare me, no need to defend your green machines.

[Kent E. Matthew]

Wow, this might explain my recent encounter. I ran across what I thought was a Gereral cabinet saw for 800 dollars. Could that have been a GI saw?

[Art Mulder]

... I will probably stick with powermatic due to the fact that it is a production shop and we do tear up some tools, ...
Excuse me, but isn't Powermatic now also building their tools overseas?
(or is it only some of their lines?)

I thought that General was the only North American tool company that still manufactured their tools in North America? Delta, Jet, General International, Ryobi, etc etc are all selling imported tools now.

And one final point on the General International tools. The GI saws are sold with a General fence. (Yes, built in Canada). To me, on a table saw, the fence is one of the most important parts, and on the GI saws the fence is the same fence that you get with a General 650 cabinet saw.


Wow, this might explain my recent encounter. I ran across what I thought was a Gereral cabinet saw for 800 dollars. Could that have been a GI saw?

GI saws are clearly marked as such. You can see the word "international" on their name plate.

[Benjimin Young]

I have a GI table saw and I have been happy with it, a good comprimise between what I could affoard and what I dreamed of.

[Steve Evans]

Kent

If it was used it may have been a General. I bought a used one for not much more than that in almost new condition.

Steve

["Jason Belous"]

CANADIAN FLAG MEAND GENERAL
NO CANADIAN FLAG MEANS GENERAL INTERNATIONAL.

I have no problem with products made overseas, I could care less.
After all I was made overseas. Like I said everyones has a brand they love, and to that individual it is the best brand in the world. Just like you should always believe that your wife is the hottest girl in the world. Support what you support. Thats all.

[Luciano Burtini]

Jason

At the risk of starting an even bigger 'war', you will be more than happy with the General brand in any production environment. It is industrial grade equipment and will stand up to as much or more than the Powermatic, etc.

I would equate the General International to the Grizzly, Jet, and even the newer Deltas (sorry Unisaw loyalists). Actually, to clarify, the GI equipment is meant to compete in the marketplace with this equipment, but if you compare I think you will see that the GI equipment is as good as and often better than the other imported equipment.

The reason they had to go to a GI brand is simple, take for example the 8" jointer - General Cdn $3199 & GI $1899. The GI also has a lot of very nice features for $1300 less. Most people will not pay this much of a premium for a small/home shop.

Depending on the actual machine and what you expect from it, you may be happy with either brand. The General being the best made North American product, but the GI, even though it is imported is, for the most part, quite nice (there are some exceptions). Look carefully at the machines you are comparing and the level of quality shows through pretty quickly.

<rant>I've said it before but it bears repeating, the Chiwanese factories are often capable of building very nice equipment, but the market is for the stuff they are producing. In other words, when we stop buying their junk, they will stop producing it.</rant>

Just something to think about.

from a very happy General owner.....

[luc gendron]

I teach woodworking at high school level in Ottawa Canada. We have two General machines (the canadian made). Both are at least 30 years old. One planer, 15'' and one 8'' jointer. Lately I've been pondering replacing the jointer as it has become noisy and the safety guard on it is defective. I've compared both General and General Int. The price difference is about 1500$CAD. Of course the school board wants to go with the cheaper version. I just don't think that the plastic switches and adjutement knobs will last, especially with a bunch of kids using them. (at least 50 teenage kids, on a daily basis, 200 days a year!). As for the planer, what a workhorse! Sees plenty of wood, works wonderfully even after all these years of abuse! Lately had to replace a gear on it, no problem called General Canada, had the gear in about a week. Todays General planer and jointer look just the same as my 30 year old ones...This says alot about the quality of the tool.

[Glen Gunderson]

Excuse me, but isn't Powermatic now also building their tools overseas?
(or is it only some of their lines?)
Yep. They used to be made in Tennessee, but are now made in various overseas factories alongside every other import brand. That's not to say that they can't be of higher quality than other imports, but people shouldn't kid themselves by holding PM tools in a category of their own, as they are now just one of many import brands, albeit one with an extremely proud history.



GI saws are clearly marked as such. You can see the word "international" on their name plate.
I think it says a lot about a company that will clearly designate a product's place of origin via it's name brand. When Powermatic and Delta began to produce products overseas it was not clear to most people which items were made where, and some people still don't seem to realize that they're not American made anymore because the companies seem to like to disguise where they are made in their promotions. I think General deserves kudos for clearly differentiating between their products made in NA and those made overseas.

Back to the original topic, General International tools are generally considered some of the best imported tools out there. They may be the odd lemon, but I've heard almost nothing negative about them from people who actually own them. That said, they are what they are. They are made overseas and they are sold at a discount.

As is often the case these days with inconsistent manufacturing, for a more accurate opinion, you might want to take it on a machine by machine basis and seek opinions based on specific models. Brand names really mean very little nowadays and blanket statements about a company are often inaccurate because different models of machines made under the same brand are often of wildly varying quality.

[Edwin Dodds]

Glen - good point you make about a North American company not trying to hide where it's products are actually made.
General is indeed made in Canada, in Drummondville, Quebec; General International is made overseas. One reason for the big difference in price between the two is that the General machines use a lot of Meehanite castings (www.meehanite.com (http://www.meehanite.com)). Meehanite castings are superior in their make-up, quality control is better, and only certain foundrys are licensed to produce it. My understanding is that General gets their meehanite castings from a licensed foundry, (Belgen) also in Drummondville.
I have found the General International products to be of similiar quality, give or take, to the other overseas products being made for Powermatic, Jet, Delta, etc.

[Kent E. Matthew]

CANADIAN FLAG MEAND GENERAL
NO CANADIAN FLAG MEANS GENERAL INTERNATIONAL.

I have no problem with products made overseas, I could care less.
After all I was made overseas. Like I said everyones has a brand they love, and to that individual it is the best brand in the world. Just like you should always believe that your wife is the hottest girl in the world. Support what you support. Thats all.

Okay I remember seeing the red maple leaf on this saw. So it was a Canadian General. Wow, what a great price.

[Luciano Burtini]

I teach woodworking at high school level in Ottawa Canada. We have two General machines (the canadian made). Both are at least 30 years old. One planer, 15'' and one 8'' jointer. Lately I've been pondering replacing the jointer as it has become noisy and the safety guard on it is defective.

Let me know when & where I can get the jointer!!!! ;) I've been looking for a nice little 8" jointer.....

[Bruce Benjamin]

Hmmm...Roy, I don't think you could've maligned GI much more unless you used some four letter words so your quote below is pretty hard to swallow. "General International are poorly made, abominably machined, and garbage tools. They are, for the most part, made in China." Didn't mean to malign??? You're kidding, right?
That being said, I don't take offense to what you said and I know you're wrong. :rolleyes:

I can't speak for the rest of the GI line but I've had the GI contractor saw for several years now and it's at least as good as any other contractor saw available. It's durable and accurate and I can't really think of anything that I could complain about of any significance. I've used a few other table saws over the years, both cabinet and contractor. And I've seen a bunch more. There are better table saws out there but I doubt that there's a better contractor saw and at least one magazine review rated it at number one. I got it at a very competitive price, it came with an excellent B'-Clone fence, (made in Canada) and even the miter gauge is pretty good when compared to any other stock gauge on any saw I've ever seen. Still not as good as an aftermarket gauge though. I don't even have a problem with the stock splitter and blade guard. All of this being said, I don't use it much anymore because I use my EZ Smart for most cuts, but when I do flip the switch it performs perfectly.

GI has sold a ton of these saws so I really don't understand how you came to your extreme conclusion. Oh well, everyone's got an opinion...Etc, etc.

Bruce



Jim:
I did not mean to maligne GI - if they're what you're after, that's great. I DID mean to differentiate between GI and General - the two are of entirely different quality.
Roy

[Randy Cooper]

Hi,

I have the GI model 260 cabinet saw and am very pleased with it. It seems to be well made.

Randy

[Paul Zoske]

I have the General International Deluxe Builders Saw with the Canadian built fence. I am very pleased with it. It's a well made piece of machinery and it's no coincidence that it won editor's choice, readers choice, and best value choice from Taunton's Tool Guide.

Yes General is better.

[Brad Ridgway]

ditto on the GI saw. I bought the left tilt with the long rails and forementioned fence last year..

I probably went overboard buying the TS Aligner, but i had to realign the trunnion to the slots by quite a big margin (my burn marks aren't gone but way better, i slope the fence a few thousanths of an inch away from the blade). Only other beefs are that the guard sucks and i can't seem to get the wings aligned dead flat, but i think all of these remaining issues may be may be more my lack of patience/tune up skills than a poor reflection of the quality of the saw.

Look for the reviews of this saw on Epinions as well as the dedicated wood forums (plus the infamous Fine Woodworking's 2003 article), there are alot of happy people with this saw and they go int much detail (the latest on the contractor is by yours truely). For the $750 pricetag, i'm satisfied short of buying the 66, i did the best with funds available.

http://www.epinions.com/hmgd-Shop_Tools-All-General_Int_l_50-185L_Contractor_Table_Saw

http://www.epinions.com/hmgd-Shop_Tools-All-General_350-T50_0_Cabinet_Table_Saw

-brad

[scott spencer]

Glen - good point you make about a North American company not trying to hide where it's products are actually made.
General is indeed made in Canada, in Drummondville, Quebec; General International is made overseas. One reason for the big difference in price between the two is that the General machines use a lot of Meehanite castings (www.meehanite.com (http://www.meehanite.com)). Meehanite castings are superior in their make-up, quality control is better, and only certain foundrys are licensed to produce it. My understanding is that General gets their meehanite castings from a licensed foundry, (Belgen) also in Drummondville.
I have found the General International products to be of similiar quality, give or take, to the other overseas products being made for Powermatic, Jet, Delta, etc.

I've always thought it was simple and classy of General to differentiate between the two lines...something Delta and PM don't do as clearly.

As far as GI quality goes, they are indeed very competitive with other Asian made machines. The countries are origin are in a state of transition, many going from Taiwan to China, but AFAIK, the GI contractor saw comes from the same factory as the PM, Bridgewood, Grizzly, Woodtek and others in Taiwan. The GI jointer comes from the same factory as the older Grizzlies, older Jet, BW, Sunhill, and Woodtek in Taiwan. So if GI's build quality is as horrible as reported, so are most other Asian made machines. While they may not be world class, I think the sheer numbers of satisfied customers are sufficient testimonial that they are made well enough for many applications.

http://www.epinions.com/GI 50-185 contractor saw - best in class (http://www.epinions.com/content_91326418564)

[Bruce Benjamin]

So it's settled then? Post #3 was pretty far from the truth. Roy, what made you say such things? :D

Bruce

[Phil Clark]

I believe much of the General International line is made in the same factory in Taiwan as King. If you compare both of their mini lathes, for example, you will find many identical parts. General introduced the 'International' line to compete in the lower price line market. The Canadian made line is competitive with any of the high end lines in price and quality.

[David Weaver]

As a follow-up post to the powermatic thread - you can still get a PM 66, which I believe is a US-Made saw, but it doesn't look as pretty or have all of the new conveniences of the taiwanese saws.

I think these saw-makers are trying to compete on price, and realize that most hobbyists (like me) are willing to tolerate a top that is 8 thou flat in the length, or a part here or there that doesn't line up, or even an entire saw that needs to be returned.

I would rather have a PM 66 than a new PM2000, but I don't think most of the buying public is going to discern that, or it wouldn't be getting harder and harder to find that.

The PM 66 vs. 2000 and G vs. GI debate, to me, is the same thing. In my opinion, if I'm going to get a taiwanese or chinese saw, I'm going to find the best of that type for the money (maybe the SC or grizz saws?) and not find the best US made type tool and then just assume that their taiwanese counterparts are great.

You know what they say about "assume".

Anyway, maybe they should've called the new general line "G-Lite" rather than General international. :eek: :)

[Dick Rowe]

Okay I remember seeing the red maple leaf on this saw. So it was a Canadian General. Wow, what a great price.

Kent,

Be aware that the Canadian flag you saw may have been on the fence which is made in Canada, but not on the GI saw itself.

[Tony Scolaro]

I prefer old tool guy but a couple years back when I was about to buy a new table saw and tired of too many project tools I did some research. The long and short of it is it came down to a PM66 or the General North American made. I called around two countries and seven dealers. I did the ole Ben Franklin Pro Con list. I also asked each dealer."Now we talked about the two saws you sell, the couple hundred dif. doesn't matter, I am your nephew, I come to you and ask which would you advice me to buy. In each case I did it (about 3 times) they said the PM66. I had reservations still but bought it. 4 months later I sold it off at a loss to a experienced professional woodworker. He came over with 15/16 of 10 inch dado put it on and ran it. He liked it. I didn't. The table was 8000 out and PM said it was within tolerences, the handles were crudely cast but the main thing was there was a slight underlying sound that I didn't like. It was of course under warranty so I got it changed out by the local outfit. Still made the underlying noise. PM said it is as good as it gets. I had an old tool guy come buy who was buying an old Dewalt RAS I had. I flip the switch and as soon as it came up to speed He said that doesn't sound right. I listed it for sale that night. It is being happily enjoyed by the new owner but for $2300 I expected more. I currently have a 1993 PM66 that I have since bought and like. It is my newest tool in the shop except for an "fake" Oliver 25" belt sander. I like it too so far. ONlY tiawanees tool in shop. The table saw duties are split with a Oliver 232 which I restored.

I would find good older equipment. If want new I think General is the way to go. It is good to reward companies that stay in North America. My understanding it is how American Manufacturers used to be. Has a long standing crew.

Best of luck it is always hard putting tool bucks on line. Many opinions out there too Tony

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, my home shop has a combination of General, and General International machinery.

The Canadian made General line of machinery is some of the best available in the world, with a price tag capable of supporting the design/comstruction of the machine. It was always superior to the Delta brand, including when Delta manufactured equipment in North America.

General International is indeed made in Taiwan, to strict standards. It is designed to compete with companies such as Delta, who also manufacture their equipment in Taiwan. The GI equipment will cost more than the Delta, because it made to higher standards.

I would be very surprised if you were disaapointed when comparing GI to Delta, or to any of the other machinery manufacturers who build their products in Taiwan.

Regards, Rod.

[Aaron Mills]

I was fortunate enough to use a lot of General, Delta/Rockwell, and Powermatic tools throughout most of my time in high school woodshop. In the last few years we also brought in some newer General Int'l and imported Delta tools. From these anecdotal experiences and my observations, I don't feel that the negative comparisons about the accuracy and durabilty of General against General Int'l are warranted. At least as much time was spent by shop technicians tuning the old General 480/1180 jointers and General 430 planer as was spent on the General Int'l dual drum sander (15-150). Few of the machines ever delivered the precision that many people here at SMC demand, but I think a lot of it came down to how well tuned the machines were and the repeated abuse that would put them out of sync. I think both the General and General Int'l machines did an admirable job, even in a high school shop environment, with their shortcomings emerging from setup/abuse not the quality of the machines itself.

[Brian Penning]

I'm another satisfied General Int'l owner (50-250 Cab saw, mortiser, air cleaner, & DC unit).
And FWIW(very little, I know ;) I'd rather have an overseas made tool than a North Am. product anyday.

[Aaron Mills]

With General and its General Int'l division, I feel that a large part of the differences in the machines are small things that certain customers demand and want, but do not necessarily have a huge impact on their abilities as a woodworking machine. Having rebuilt several General machines, I think that these cost discrepancies arise from 1) the Meehanite castings and 2) name brand (Baldor/Leeson) motors. None of the small parts for a General machine are particularly expensive, but any cast iron parts command a small fortune. As an example, consider the price difference between the General 350/650 ($2599 CDN) and the General Int'l 50-250/50-260 ($1799 CDN). The $800 CDN price difference is probably the smallest discrepancy between comparable products from General and General Int'l. At those prices they are both 3 HP cabinet saws with the Canadian made T-fence and 30" rails.



Ultimately, only a small fraction of the General Int'l line-up of tools overlaps with the General machines. Keep in mind, few of the Canadian made General machines actually utilize innovative designs or technology. In fact a lot of them seem to be based off of other companies machines that General bought out or at one time manufactured for (Delta/Rockwell, Jos Poitras, etc.). It doesn't seem as if General is in the market to engineer or redesign many of their machines or expand their line-up of Canadian made machines. The majority of machines from General Int'l actually add to the offerings from General. Thickness sanders, spindle sanders, dust collection, power feeders, and even most of their table saws, band saws, jointers, etc. merely fill in holes in the General line-up.

General has continued to do what they are good at (producing many of the same machines they have for decades with minor changes) while maintaining a foothold in the woodworking marketplace that has seen an increasing number of machines become available to the hobbiest woodworker at reduced prices and a shift in the manufacturing process for many of their competitors.

[Gary Curtis]

Last year I bought the General 350 10" Cabinet saw (made in Canada) with the General sliding table (made in Taiwan). The workmanship on the saw itself phenomenal. The sliding table was quite well-made, though in a few places the material was not quite as thick or heavy. I evaluated different brands for 18 months and am very happy with my selection.

The operating manual for the slider was one of the best I've seen on any machinery. General International equipment has won best awards in Fine Woodworking Magazine and other publications. One standout was the GI Contractor saw. I believe one of their jointers and a bandsaw have also garnered those awards.

Since the original design has much to do with quality, I would compare each machine with models made by other manufacturers.

Gary Curtis
northern Calif.