Grizzly J/p Info

[Dan Lautner]

Has anyone run the new J/P combo from Grizzly. I'm thinking of upgrading my fathers shop for his birthday. The spiral head seems like a good way to go. I don't see how the Minimax could be worth 2X the Griz. Thanks for any advice.

Dan

[Pete Brown]

Has anyone run the new J/P combo from Grizzly. I'm thinking of upgrading my fathers shop for his birthday. The spiral head seems like a good way to go. I don't see how the Minimax could be worth 2X the Griz. Thanks for any advice.

Dan

I'm not saying it is worth 2x as I have no experience with either one, but I'd like respond to your comment in general. Take nothing below as an endorsement or slam of a particular brand or model.

Precision and accuracy costs money. The flatter you want something, the more square you want something, the more accurate you want something, the more it will cost. Better manufacturing practices result in better products right out of the gate. This means more time and likely more expensive equipment used in the manufacturing process.

Better materials hold up longer and move less. Cast iron that is cured and then milled is more stable than cast iron that was milled before it was cured. In addition, there are lots of differences in types of cast iron; some are better than others.

You might want to ask yourself why Grizzly have other 12" jointers (without the planer) that cost more than this combo. Perhaps it is the manufacturering process and tolerances? Perhaps it is because there is a lot less cast iron?

It's a bit like buying a craftsman hutch at Target vs. one made by someone who works wood for a living. Sure, they may both look the same on the surface, but one is made with inferior materials (like particle board) and has inferior joinery. One will last longer and take more abuse. Whether or not that piece of furniture it is worth an additional $6000 in price difference is really up to you.

FWIW, I'm a bit interested in the Grizzly combo as well, but I won't be the first one to try it out.

Pete

[Dan Lautner]

Thanks for the input Pete. I can't believe that FWW did a j/p combo review and did not wait to put this machine in the test. Perhaps they will add it for the online version.

Dan

[Ryan Myers]

Pete, I agree completely with everything you say. But I would like to throw out another perspective. Sometimes well known & respected names can charge more for their items because they have established themselves. They know this fact and they use it to their advantage.

I work in the contracting industry and see this alot. Companies that have been around for 100 years can charge what they want and people will pay the premium price because they believe in that company. Companies that are new to the market have to work for less to prove themselves until they become a big player.

I know these are two completely different subjects, but I think it represents the mindset of the consumer in the same way.

That being said I own a Grizzly tablesaw that is a very nice machine. I don't at all argue that the other brands are not well engineered machines. Lets face it, those Italian's do make some well engineered machines such as the Lamborghini.

Don't take offense, this is just my opinion.

[Pete Brown]

No offense taken at all. I agree that good brands can charge more, especially if there is a peer pressure factor. I'd like to think that a premium company that sells poor or even average quality tools would eventually lose that reputation, but I have no proof of that other than the obvious old USA-went-to-taiwan-and-turned-to-crap cases :)

Pete

[Scott Taylor]

I too have not used this combo machine. But I do own a Griz 8" jointer and 20" Planer. Being relatively new to the woodworking field, I can say that I have a pretty fresh perspective. My first point has everything to change-over time. How long will it take to change this machine over from one mode to another? I know that my time in my shop is limited and I don't want to be screwing around with change-over time. Everything that I have prepped has been with the interest of time in mind. For instance, I have several mid-grade routers on a wall rack that are pre-rigged with bits that are frequently used instead of just one really nice, expensive router.

The next point has to do with flow of work. Different workers have different work patterns. But most here might agree that after jointing, they move the piece to the planer. Or to the table saw and then to the planer. Combo concept seems to interrupt the "flow."

[Jamie Buxton]

Thanks for the input Pete. I can't believe that FWW did a j/p combo review and did not wait to put this machine in the test. Perhaps they will add it for the online version.

Dan

The FWW article ran several months ago, and was probably written last summer. The Grizzly combo isn't available yet. The catalog predicts May 2007.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Precision and accuracy costs money. The flatter you want something, the more square you want something, the more accurate you want something, the more it will cost.
Pete

Perhaps....but things have changed quite a bit in the last 20 years. For instance, China undervalues its currency up to 40% against the US dollar. This fact by itself almost accounts for Asian machinery to be 2X cheaper. Now, factor in extremely low labor rates and nearly non-existant environmental laws.

Bottom line, I don't exclusively measure quality by dollars anymore. Instead, I use the old fashion touch, feel and taste senses. If I'm unable to do this, I ask for help from fellow Creekers. :)

I too am anxiously awaiting the Grizzly J/P debut. However, I went thru that all-to-common exercise of replacing all the 'consumer grade' machines in my shop 20 years ago. My patience, and my back, are not what they use to be. Before I buy any new machines, I want to bite into the cast iron first!

Jeff :)

[Jim Becker]

How long will it take to change this machine over from one mode to another?

Changeover for my J/P takes about 60-90 seconds, give or take, including cranking the planer table up and down.




The next point has to do with flow of work. Different workers have different work patterns. But most here might agree that after jointing, they move the piece to the planer. Or to the table saw and then to the planer. Combo concept seems to interrupt the "flow."

Work flow does enter into it. I tend to bounce between the saw and the jointer and only use the planer in "batches". There are exceptions, of course, but the changeover actually forces me to slow down and think about what I am doing. More than once, it's caused me to avoid a mistake and has also caused me to think more about efficiently processing my project.

I will say that a combo J/P is probably not the best idea for a multi-person shop or for a woodworker who tends to process one piece of lumber completely through the cycle at a time. But for "most", you just adjust your routine over time to take advantages of the capacities and space savings when it's appropriate for your shop. If I had double the space I have, I might have considered separates. (I actually had a line on a vintage Northfield 12" Jointer and if that would have happened, I'd have separates now...and a lot less space to work in)

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Don't forget the VAT and the benefits packages pensions and work envirnonments of the European market.

we pay for that when we buy european equipment.

[Merle Clor]

Is the relatively short bed an issue with this machine?

[Jim Becker]

Is the relatively short bed an issue with this machine?
Good question, Merle. One of the reasons I opted for a larger J/P was my perceived need for longer tables and frankly, I do enjoy having them when I'm skimming lumber, etc., whereby longer stock is in play. But in general, if you componentize your work pieces before you do final dimensioning, the shorter beds of the 12" J/P machines don't really come into play as an issue. By componentize I mean layout and rough cut components to general dimensions before you flatten, thickness and straighten them at the jointer, planer and table saw. There is really little reason to try and flatten and straighten a long board if what you are going to cut out of it consists of shorter pieces...best practice is to always joint material that is slightly longer than its final length. You take off less material that way when the board is "challenging", too...

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Merle....Check out this SMC post from a couple of months ago.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=52921&highlight=jointer+length

-Jeff :)