How do you rip narrow strips of plywood on a slider?

[Bob Stevens12]

This is my first post and hopefully someone can help. I am trying to determine the best/proper way to rip multiple narrow strips off a sheet of plywood on my slider without having to cut them oversize then trim them perfect with the rip fence. The pieces need to be precise and will be anywhere from 3"-12" wide by 8' long. Someone suggested measuring the sheet and subtracting back what I need to cut off plus the blade kerf of 0.138" and then use the cross cut fence and carriage but that seems like more math than should be necessary.

Any thoughts? I have an S315 but haven't used it enough to figure out the best way myself.

Thanks
Bob

[Ed Kowaski]

Set the rip fence to your 3 to 12" width. Pull the fence back so that the front edge is behind the front of the blade, put the sheet on the slider against the fence on the cross cut table and the rip fence and start cutting. You may want to rip the sheet into two chunks before you start the stripping. Clear?

[Ed Kowaski]

P.S... You'll eventually need to do a rip or two with just the rip fence. Loosen the clamp pull it ahead, lock it and make the cut. I'd save the wider parts for that when possible.

[Bob Stevens12]

Ed, thanks for the info. I have tried that system a bit and wasn't sure it would be as accurate over the full 8' length as the fence is only registering off the front 3' or so of the plywood sheet. It seems in retrospect that a slider is not really well suited to ripping when compared to a standard tablesaw.
Craig

[Todd Yates]

Bob,
Lay your sheet on the slider and out rigger use the rip fence measuring scale slide the sheet over to the 3" mark, clamp,cut. Clear as MUDD?
First, have you adjusted your cross cut fence to square planels? Not square to the blade. If square to the blade it will not rip straight.
Todd

[Bob Stevens12]

My crosscut fence is squared for cutting panels not to the blade. As I understand it the slider moves away from the blade a bit as it slides forward. Sounds like the fence system is the way ripping of this sort is done. I must need more practice to get it right.
Bob

[Jim Becker]

As I understand it the slider moves away from the blade a bit as it slides forward.

That's a new one by me. When I set up my S315 WS a couple months ago, just for grins, I put me TS Aligner Jr on the slider to verify it was parallel with the blade...and it was. The rip fence was properly toed out "just a hair" to avoid binding measured with the same method.

I've been routinely using my rip fence for narrow rips, but largely on short material. For sheets, I plan on using the method that Todd mentions unless the sheet gets too narrow to safely or accurately register to the wagon/cross-cut table.

[Jeff Wright]

I too struggled with ripping narrow pieces when I first got my combo. I think I have come up with a method that is simple and extremely accurate. (You may recall I'm the guy who posted a thread last week about working toward accuracies of 1/64s of an inch).

I first made sure my larger fence ruler (the one on the squaring table) was accurately referenced to my blade. That way, I can depend on that measurement tool when I set the fence's stop (BTW, the stops on my fence as seen in the photo below are installed backwards, but that's the way I calibrated them. It wasn't until Sam Blasco paid a visit to my shop that he pointed out my error. It seems to work fine the way they are, but next time I re-calibrate I will turn them around the way they should be).

I first set the fence stop to my desired width. Then I use one of my steel rules and an inexpensive adjustable stop available from Lee Valley or Rockler or others. I loosen the stop on the ruler, and slide the ruler's edge snug against the fence stop and the little sliding stop is positioned against the edge of the sliding table CLOSEST to the blade. I then tighten the knurled nut on the small ruler stop. I then take that ruler with stop down the length of the sliding table to the approximate end of the length of the workpiece to be cut. I clamp that end of the workpiece so that when I snug the ruler and stop on the same edge of the sliding table the other end of the ruler is exactly even with the same edge of the workpiece that is resting against the large fence stop. The pictures below should tell a clearer story than I can write.

I have gotten to the point where I can do a set up in less than a minute. Rather than attempting to run my workpiece using the rip fence (a technique that for me at least often results in slight saw marks or mis-cuts), running the workpiece past the blade using the sliding table is safe and results in a far cleaner cut.

I just used this method today while building a 30x13x46 tool cabinet. I assembled the box with box joints and glued the 1/2 inch ply panels into the rabbeted front and back creating a sealed and closed box - HUGE! To make the front doors, I placed the box on its 13-inch side on top of the slider table, set the fence stop at 10 inches (to cut off a top 3 inches deep), used my steel rule and small stop to set the offset distance from the edge of the slider table to the fence stop, then used that same offset farther down the slider table at about the 40 inch mark. The set up was so accurate that all four cuts around the big box matched each other. It was a breeze having that huge box up on the slider table and easily glided it past the blade - no threat of kickback, no burn marks from the blade, no tear out since I also used the scoring blade . . . . worked like a charm.

If I were cutting a bunch of pieces the same width, I would use the ruler and small stop to establish a clamped board along the sliding table set back a distance equal to the fence stop's setting. Then, I would go to town ripping my pieces. I like to have my finish cuts left on the sliding table instead of having the finish cuts fall off to the outside side of the saw blade. I think I get better accuracy that way.

Send me a PM if I have confused you.

[Bob Stevens12]

Jeff,
Thanks for the thorough reply, I understand completely. I guess I was expecting a $9000 saw to not need this kind of fiddling to get accurate repeatable cuts. I thought I was missing something about how the saw functions and there was some setup I didn't understand. I will give the rip fence system another round of trials to see why it wasn't working as well as it sounds like it should.
Bob

[Paul B. Cresti]

Bob.
You bought a good saw and it is time to set it up correctly the first time....that goes the same for any piece of high qaulity machinery. I have owned two different sliders and always get good results once the saw was set up. I never had to adjust the slider carriage on either my S315 or S35 but did of course have to set up the rip fence.

Make sure your slider is tracking correctly, even marks through the cut. I have mine set parallel to the blade...no problems, works great, was set that way straight from the factory. I have no idea where all these "experts" get this toe in toe out idea from. Next set the main crosscut fence & miter guage up so you get perfectly square cuts along the full length of slider travel. The last step is to set your rip fence square to your main crosscut fence & miter guage. This way your can reference the rip fence from you main crosscut fence or miter guage as a stop if need be.

Your slider IS a cabinet saw on steriods with a dash of a whole lotta technology. It can do anything you can do on a cabinet saw and way beyond. You need to stop thinking though from the perspective of a cabinet saw user....I know it is tough at first but you will change your ways and never look back period.

I routinely rip long narrow strips of sheetgoods on my slider using the rip fence & crosscut method as Ed noted. One thing you will find is that even sheetgoods will warp as internal pressure is released, I found this out the hard way with veneer core. For very long narrow strips I switched to using a sheetgood core that has a couple of layers of MDF as a stablizer. Some call it classic core my supplier called it FX core (I think).

Some of the many benefits you will recieve from your slider is being able to rip and crosscut without changing anything....one machine, many functions....very safe.

I have attached some pictures of my work showing you some of the things I have done with my sliders.... yes that is a connical vanity, 1" solid cherry & maple staves both tapered and beveled ALL 48 of them. 2 degree taper 4 degree bevel for the top half (24 pieces) and 2.5 degree taper 6 degree bevel (24 pieces) on the bottom. They vary from 1.25" at the wide face down to about 3/4" at the narrow face....

If you want to see some other of the many uses/benefits I have found in my slider learning check out my past posts here in the archives.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Just did that last night.

Had tapered back stays for Adirondack chairs to make.
I established my angle and thickness as fixed elements on the slider by:

1.) I made a chunk of doubled up 3/4 ply about 10 x 20 rectangular. Glued and screwed it together to make a nice thick sturdy slab. This was how I wasw going to clamp the work. Clamp the chunk to the slider and clamp the work to the slider using the chunk.

2.) On that slab in just an inch from an edge: I drilled some flat bottomed holes (recessed spot-faces) along one long side large and deep enough to accommodate the hex heads of my bolts so they would sit a tad beneath the surface (this surface is the bottom of the slab). Then in the center of those spot-faces I drilled some 1/4" thru holes (actually thee were 0.242" so they'd really squeeze on the 1/4" dia bolts I was going to put in 'em).

3.) Then I ripped some thick maple chunks to be my hold downs and drilled them appropriately.

4.) Then I clamped that ply slab (after ripping a skim off to ensure a dead flat & straight edge) to my slider VIA the T slot and some clamps. I used another clamp to establish a fixed stop for the pieces. That slam and the fixed stop became the fixed positions against which I secured my work to get the consistent thickness and angle. This became a saort of L against which I placed and clamped the work.

5.) I used my little ¼ bolts that were sticking up from the slab and my hold downs I made to secure the work in place for each cut.

Whamma Bamma She-s-a done

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

My crosscut fence is squared for cutting panels not to the blade. As I understand it the slider moves away from the blade a bit as it slides forward. .

Yes exactly. It should V away about 0.003" over the course of a 15 foot cut. This is perfect for ripping ling Ply slivers dead true.

If you slider V's off more than 0.005"- true it up.

You can consiostently rip long slices way more accurately with theslider than the rip fence The rip fense is a faster set up tho'.

[Bob Stevens12]

Cliff and Paul, thanks for the info. I will work on the rip fence today and see what I can get setup. As for the slider angling away as it cuts that's what the Minimax tech guy told me, I haven't had a chance to verify it yet though. I am still figuring out this slider thing but overall it is much nicer than my cabinet saw without question, just need to alter my thinking on cutting a bit. Paul, I read most if not all of yours and Jims previous posts before buying, thanks.
Bob

[Sam Blasco]

Sliders should be .004" - .008" toed out (front of the blade to back of the blade), for the same reason you want your rip fence toed out: so that the back of the blade doesn't cut the material again after being cut by the front of the blade. Since there is no such thing as a perfectly flat blade all blades will have some wobble, even when arbors and flanges are near dead nuts, as they are on most quality saws. If your slider was perfectly parallel to the blade and the blade had some wobble your cut marks would look like the blade was only cutting on the upstroke at the back. Ideally you should see a hint of a ghosting pattern when cutting with the slider, the back of the blade barely kissing the material. A slider will always cut straight, even if toed out too much. Theoretically, your slider could be out .0625" or more and it would give you a straight cut, but the cut would be incredibly ragged because the tangent point would be more toward the very front of the teeth, like the cut was being done by only the points of the teeth. If it was out much more than that you would also encounter binding issues with the offcut unless it was just a trim cut, but again we are only talking theory.

When it comes to ripping with the slider, as you can see, there are many practices that work. Personally, if I only have to make one or two quick rips I do something very similar to Jeff, except I use my operator's side edge of the slider as a reference and a combination square or tape measure, and a clamp on the back end. It's quicker and if the rip is wider than the slider itself, then I can just put the tape under the panel to the slider's edge.

For a bigger run of ripping I attach my parallel jig, a fence positioner (Jointech or Incra will work) mounted to my auxillary table. This is a poor man's version of the true parallel attachments you can buy for sliders. Each company has their own versions. I would venture to say, that with these incremental fence positioners, though, the repeatablity is higher than relying on a cursor and its associated parallax issues. That and I digitized my flip stops, which makes for extreme repeatablity on that end. Here is a link to both the parallel ripping jig and the digital flips:

http://s115.photobucket.com/albums/n313/postcromag/Jigs%20and%20Mods/Parallel%20Jig%20and%20Digital%20Stops/

And here are some pic of it in use:

61895

61896

[Martin Imber]

Sam,

Can you tell us where you got the digital flip stops from?

Martin.

[Sam Blasco]

Sam,

Can you tell us where you got the digital flip stops from?

Martin.

I made them, or rather modified the existing flip stops with some components I purchased from Siko Products (the displays, sensors & mag tape). Cost was under $1K and three hours of my time.

[Phil Pritchard]

Folks here are talking about setting up machines to thous and the rest. In reality it can't be done without wasting a huge amount of time and effort. It's also unnecessary. Instead every commercial user of a panel saw (slider) needs to learn how to set them up using the sort of technique which is promoted by Altendorf - you do it by ear.... There's a post describing the procedure on the www.ukworkshop.co.uk forum (topic # 11445). It's also applicable to squaring radial arm saws, etc. I check my F45 every couple of weeks this way - it takes all of 10 minutes and requires no expensive jigs, DTIs and the rest of the malarky some people seem to need.

As to precisely parallel cuts it is normal to utilise a secondary fence, such as the Altendorf PALIN which means that you rough cut the strips slightly over width then dimension rip using a combination of the flip/spring stop on the crosscut fence and the secondary fence some way further back along the sliding carraige. Normally I'd just use this technique for re-ripping strips to fit them as the rip fence functions just as well on a slider as it does on a conventional table saw - probably better as it is generally somewhat longer and can be pulled back to act as a proper true rip fence, i.e. one that ends at the back of the gullet on the leading tooth of the blade. Judgement and experience will tell you when to rip using the carraige or the rip fence.

Phil

[John Renzetti]

Hello Phil, I checked the UK forum and posting. Good forum, but it's a good thing I've spent a lot of time in the UK and having a bunch of friends from there or I would never have understood half the terms used. :)
Good points on setting the free cut by sound. There's a section in the Altendorf manual that talks about setting the free cut on the slider and the toe out of the rip fence.
I have found that setting each just a hair out, say around .002" works well to have the workpiece just clear the blade. This measurement is taken by putting a mark on a point at the leading edge of the blade then rotating it 180 degrees and measuring the difference. A little anal true, I'll have to try your sound method as it does look a lot more efficient. The key point here is to have just a hair of toe-out and definetly not have the opposite.
Phil, Are you the "Scrit" who wrote the article.

Sam, Good talking to you at the Mid Atlantic show a couple of weeks ago.
I think .004" to .008" toe out might be too much. Early on when I got my slider, I found the toe out or free cut of the slider to be around .006-007". This was causing some chipout when using the dado cutter. When I re-aligned it to .002" the cuts were perfect. Blade runout has been mentioned. Even the best industrial blades will have around .002" runout. I believe that anything over .004" is excessive.
Sam, I'm real interested in those digital crosscut stops you designed and made. Could you post or send me some instructions.
take care,
John