POWERMATIC 209HH - impressions

[Kevin Groenke]

Originally posted to: SAWS-Society of Architecture Workshop Supervisors

Moderator deleted direct link to another public forum - TOS Violation

Hey all, I've finally gotten the PM209HH 20" helical head planer delivered, installed and powered up. There was some interest here in this machine, so I thought I would give my impressions.

# 1 - Noise

I upgraded from benchtop planers primarily because of noise. We really didn't need more than 13" very often (of course it would be nice,but...). Helical heads were reportedly significantly quieter the straight knives so after a visit from env. health, complaints from classrooms below us, etc.. I decided to take the plunge. Having $3k in store credit at "Tried and True Tools" from the sale of the old Unisaws (replaced w/SawStops), expedited the process, I requested money specifically for a quieter planer, but got the standard "put it in next year's budget request" response that I've been getting for the past 4 years. "So, the noise Kevin?" oh yeah, WOW!, I really hadn't imagined that a 20" planer could be this quiet, WHAT was I waiting for? Quieter than the Sawstop at idle, and usually while running too. You can actually carry on a conversation while it's planing, amazing! This purchase single-handedly addressed our noise issue.

#2 - Design/Quality
In 2 words... not impressed. I went for the Powermatic expecting it would be a step above the "cloners"...it isn't, it is just another clone, basically interchangable with a Grizzly, Yorkcraft, Shop Fox, General Int, etc... Of course the BYRD "true helical" cutter head sets it apart, though the BYRD is available for all the clones-you may need to install yourself. You can get the Yorkcraft with the BYRD installed - $2120
http://www.wilkemachinery.com/default.tpl?action=full&cart=1175698044301490&id1=14&--woSECTIONSdatarq=14&--SECTIONSword=ww&--eqskudatarq=2536

Examples:

Rolling Base: details were sketchy as this is a new machine, but I was expecting an "HTC style" base that jacks the planer off of 2 adjustable feet onto a pivoting caster allowing significant mobility. That's not the case, this planer rests on 4 non-swiveling, non-height adjustable, 3"x1-1/4" wheels, the 2 back ones can be "locked" by a knob/bolt that threads through the base and rests directly against the wheel, pretty crude. The Yorkcraft clone has a built in HTC style base and this is what I was expecting, oh well it's not like it's going to move very often.

IN/OUT feed tables: nice big cast in/out tables, but a PITA to install/level. The casting isn't square where the 3-8MM bolts that hold the table to the bed attach, as a result, when you tighten the bolts, the in/out table creeps upward. I ended up grinding the casting to make it flat, but not until I got to the second table. The tables are leveled simply by a set screw through the in/out table setting against the face of the bed. I don't really trust the longevity of any of these parts, the fasteners are too few and all "feel" too small and the casting too thin for the tapped holes to be durable. Both tables are bowed/crowned .010"+ rt-lft.

Few features: Our $500 DeWalt 735 benchtop has: depth stops, depth of cut indicator, height scale, easy open cover, "no-snipe auto lock", on-board tools, etc.. I expected some similar features on a $2800 planer, but we've got what: a height scale, 2 speeds + an extra gear and chain for low range, 2 knobs for column lock, 2 knobs that thread a bolt into the wheels. The access cover/chip chute is a pain to remove compared to the 4 screws of the DW735. Sure it's marketing, but using this stripped down stationary planer makes me realize that DeWalt got a lot right with their latest benchtop planer.

#3 - Operation:
The planer works fine, cut is clean with no discernable scalloping, or "ridges" at the knife seams that had been mentioned as a downside of the insert heads. Heavily figured hard maple cuts exponentially better than straight knives. I am getting more snipe than I expected...what's up with that. Again the old DW 735 pretty much eliminated snipe, am I going to have to get used to it again? Will raising the in/out table slightly help? Closer inspection of this makes me suspect slop in the acme threads in the posts, is there a mechanism to adjust out that slop,,suppose I'll check the manual.

All in all, store credit well spent. Just need to develop a use protocol and figure out how to keep steel out of the $4 ea carbide inserts.

Found and ordered the Wixey digital height indicator...that sould simplify things a bit.

Cheers,

Kevin Groenke

[Tom Cowie]

Hi Kevin

Sorry to here that you are disappointed with the new machine. I upgraded to the 15HH from a Dewalt 733. I kept the Dewalt but I am very satisfied with the Powermatic.


Tom

[Frank Snyder]

Kevin -

I have the 209 with an aftermarket Byrd head I installed myself. I'm very happy with its performance and build quality. I knew the castors didn't swivel prior to purchasing, so this wasn't a disappointment for me and I can still rotate it on my floor if I need to without too much difficulty.

My infeed/outfeed tables were dead flat, and as you mentioned, the bolts and while the adjustment screws are a little crude, they have held their position so far. I don't experience any snipe at all, so I would double check your infeed/outfeed tables and pressure bar adjustment.

PM is the higher priced of the Taiwanese clones, and according to people I've talked to at PM, they "claim" that they spec higher quality components than those that are found on their competitors. I can't verify that claim personally, but as an owner of several PM tools, I've been happy with their performance and reliability.

I also wouldn't compare this planer with a benchtop planer in terms of "features". This planer can run all day long without breaking down and can handle anything you feed it. Features found on bentchtop planers are just not necessary, nor do they always work the way they are advertised. I had a Ridgid benchtop planer before this one, and while the cutter head lock reduced snipe, it didn't eliminate it. On board tools are cheesy, the pre-set height adjustment would collect dust and throw off the stop, and the outfeed rollers would also collect dust and slip causing all sorts of problems.

I wouldn't complain about the planer your just acquired...it will serve you well for a long, long time. Granted, you couldv'e spent less and gone with a Yorkie or Grizzly, but they're just not as cool as PM ;).

[robert cohen]

Kevin,

I was looking at getting this machine. It sounds as though it fell short of your expectations.

My choices were:

1. Get the PM 209HH

2. Get the PM 209 and upgrade the cutter at a later time.

3. Get a Grizzly G0454 and Shelix cutter

If you were doing it again, which choice would you take?

Where did you get yours? They seem to be sold out. PM only had 2 in stock at the TN plant as of today.

[Kevin Groenke]

Don't get me wrong folks, this mustard is not all bad, I was just expecting more.

We got ours from a local vendor, paid 2 months ago, it was drop shopped a couple weeks ago.

If I did it again, I may consider the Yorkcraft.. $600 less, BYRD installed, mobile base. The top end of all of these planers appear to be identical. We got ours on store credit, so that wasn't an option in this case.

Closer inspection of the sniping may have revealed the cause. I can actually feel a bit of slop in the table, ie I can physically cause it to shift by lifting on one end or the other, I suspect that the table is see-sawing as the stock feeds in/out, there is no accomodation for taking up slack in the acme nuts attached to the table. All rollers are properly adjusted. If some of you are running this machine with NO snipe, you must have gotten better parts off the line. Snipe can be reduced by cranking on the column clamps, but the knobs provided do not allow for much torque, they may get replaced with ratchet handles (or a cam mechanism). On a related note, the bushings that clamp the columns were just wedges, so had very little surface area actually clamping the post. I ground and spindle sanded those bushings to the profile of the posts which has improved the clamping efficiency.

As to the features, I'm aware that this machine is marketed to a different user to whom "gadgets" may be unimportant...we've all seen plenty of failed gadgets, but I suspect that many of us have also gotten accostomed to a gadget or two that works well. The DW735 a recent example of a machine that got a few gadgets right, the SawStop is another.

Cheers
Kevin

[robert cohen]

The Yorkie is not that much cheaper. The cost is $2,125 for Planer and head. Thet charge anxtra $100 to install the head. Shipping is the killer. Thet quoted me $169 for shipping to terminal and $150 for liftgate.

The grand total is $2125 + $100 + $ 169 + 150 = $2544:eek: :eek:

[robert cohen]

Any further input?

[Mike Heidrick]

I think the PM 209 or PM 209HH is one of the tools that I should wait for Amazon to get and to sell them with free shipping and no tax. Amazon shipping includes liftgate. This is how I got my Delat DJ30 and 5hp Delta shaper - both on clearence priced deals. I would love a new 20" planer.

[Joe Jensen]

Don't get me wrong folks, this mustard is not all bad, I was just expecting more.

We got ours from a local vendor, paid 2 months ago, it was drop shopped a couple weeks ago.

If I did it again, I may consider the Yorkcraft.. $600 less, BYRD installed, mobile base. The top end of all of these planers appear to be identical. We got ours on store credit, so that wasn't an option in this case.

Closer inspection of the sniping may have revealed the cause. I can actually feel a bit of slop in the table, ie I can physically cause it to shift by lifting on one end or the other, I suspect that the table is see-sawing as the stock feeds in/out, there is no accomodation for taking up slack in the acme nuts attached to the table. All rollers are properly adjusted. If some of you are running this machine with NO snipe, you must have gotten better parts off the line. Snipe can be reduced by cranking on the column clamps, but the knobs provided do not allow for much torque, they may get replaced with ratchet handles (or a cam mechanism). On a related note, the bushings that clamp the columns were just wedges, so had very little surface area actually clamping the post. I ground and spindle sanded those bushings to the profile of the posts which has improved the clamping efficiency.

As to the features, I'm aware that this machine is marketed to a different user to whom "gadgets" may be unimportant...we've all seen plenty of failed gadgets, but I suspect that many of us have also gotten accostomed to a gadget or two that works well. The DW735 a recent example of a machine that got a few gadgets right, the SawStop is another.

Cheers
Kevin

This is too bad. I wish Powermatic still make the good planers. I'd strongly recommend buying an old Powermatic 16-22" planer and refurbishing it. Here is Arizona, one store is doing just that and getting $7000 for 20" planers with the Byrd head. I think you could do it yourself for around $3-4K...joe

[J.R. Rutter]

I had the Shop Fox version for a few years, and installed the Shelix head myself. I used a Wixey gauge on it with great results. Also upgraded from a DeWalt lunchbox due to noise and the fact that I was starting to use Jatoba more and it was killing the DeWalt.

I was able to eliminate snipe by experimenting with the various adjustments. I face joint everything that goes through the planer, so I never installed the infeed support (rollers in my case). I suppose it helps to get a flatter top surface if you are feeding unjointed stock. At least part of snipe is supporting the infeeding board until it hits the outfeed roller and catching it before it leaves the infeed roller on the way out. Longer tables mean more leverage being exerted by long, heavy boards, which might help explain your bed moving. My current planer, an old Rockwell with Shelix head, has no in/out tables at all. I rarely bothered to tighten the column knobs on mine, just kept them slightly snug and always cranked up into final position - SOP for backlash...

Byrd must be getting better tolerances on their heads these days. I got noticible scallops from mine - not that it mattered for what I was doing.

[Roger Owen]

I am in the market for a 20 inch planer with a helical head. I wondered whether anybody has any other advice before this thread goes cold. The PM 209HH is about all I can afford. Should I consider others? What about the General 30-300HC?

Thanks.

Roger Owen

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Roger, the 30-300HC isn't a General planer, it's a General International, big difference.

The 30-300HC is a 20 inch planer, with a helical cutterhead, made in Taiwan. At present it's on sale in the US for $3,695.

The smallest General planer, 130-1-M2 is a 14 inch, straight knife cutterhead, made in Canada. It's on sale for $5,500 US.

I've looked at the GI equipment, and own some. The equipment is well made, and was designed to compete with, and exceed the quality of the other Taiwanese machines such as Delta and Powermatic.

If you'd be happy with Delta or Powermatic you may be happier with General International. You'll have to look at the equipment and decide.

General is a premium line of equipment, manufactured in Canada, and sells for premium money. Owning some, I've not regretted spending premium money to get a premium product.

Regards, Rod.

[Roger Owen]

Hi Roger, the 30-300HC isn't a General planer, it's a General International, big difference.

The 30-300HC is a 20 inch planer, with a helical cutterhead, made in Taiwan. At present it's on sale in the US for $3,695.

The smallest General planer, 130-1-M2 is a 14 inch, straight knife cutterhead, made in Canada. It's on sale for $5,500 US.

I've looked at the GI equipment, and own some. The equipment is well made, and was designed to compete with, and exceed the quality of the other Taiwanese machines such as Delta and Powermatic.

If you'd be happy with Delta or Powermatic you may be happier with General International. You'll have to look at the equipment and decide.

General is a premium line of equipment, manufactured in Canada, and sells for premium money. Owning some, I've not regretted spending premium money to get a premium product.

Regards, Rod.


Rod,

Thanks for the input. I guess I knew that there is a big difference between GI and the Canadian machines. I think General is out of my price range. What I am wondering is whether the difference between the GI 30-300HC and the Powermatic 209HH is worth the $900 difference in price. I can go and kick tires, but I was thinking that the positive or negative feedback from those who have used the machines would be more valuable.

Thanks again,

Roger

[Nancy Laird]

Roger, have you considered the Steel city 20" planer? It's only $1899.99 right now, with $172.00 motor freight charge. Here's a link to the specs:
http://pro.woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=040-270

Nancy (84 days)

[BARRY RESNICK]

Nancy,

Do you own stock in SCT or Woodworker's Supply?

There are other choices. The PM 209 is $1999 with free shipping at Woodcraft until 9/30.

[Nancy Laird]

Nancy,

Do you own stock in SCT or Woodworker's Supply?

There are other choices. The PM 209 is $1999 with free shipping at Woodcraft until 9/30.

No. I refer you to this thread: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=65965

Nancy (84 days)

[Roger Owen]

Thanks, Nancy. I checked it out at the SCTW web site. The SC 40270 looks an awful lot like the PM 209 and the GI 30-300. Are all these planers made in the same factory? I would really like a helical cutter, so I'm leaning more toward the PM 209HH or GI 30-300HC. I really need some unbiased comparative appraisal of some of these machines from people who have used them.

Roger

[Kirk Poore]

Of course, you could go with a used machine. This recently restored Oliver 399D is for sale over at the OWWM.org site for $1600:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l45/rocketjg/DSCF0005.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l45/rocketjg/DSCF0003.jpg

I have one of these. MUCH quieter than my lunchbox planer, though I don't know how it compares to a helical head. Weighs about 1200 lbs, solid as a rock.

Kirk

[Nancy Laird]

Thanks, Nancy. I checked it out at the SCTW web site. The SC 40270 looks an awful lot like the PM 209 and the GI 30-300. Are all these planers made in the same factory?... Roger

No, Roger, SCTW machines are manufactured in their own facility in China. SCTW built their own manufacturing plan so they could have more control over the QA than they would in one of the cookie-cutter plants.

Nancy (83 days)

[David Weaver]

Now THAT looks like a planer worth having on your floor. It's got style too.

[Mike Spanbauer]

Lol. Not to mention you can be dang certain it'll be running like a beast in 20 years just like it was doing 40 years ago.

Northfield and old Oliver... not much compares :)

Would cost 10k to get a machine of that caliber today.

Helical head would run another $800-1000, but you'd have a machine for life :)

Of course, this one does NOT come in a mobile option ;)

mike

[Kirk Poore]

Lol. Not to mention you can be dang certain it'll be running like a beast in 20 years just like it was doing 40 years ago.

Northfield and old Oliver... not much compares :)

Would cost 10k to get a machine of that caliber today.

Helical head would run another $800-1000, but you'd have a machine for life :)

Of course, this one does NOT come in a mobile option ;)

mike

Maybe more than $10K. List price in 1987 was $7995, according to a quote sheet I have.:)

As far a the mobile option goes:
http://www.medievaloak.com/images/planer_jack2.jpg

I selected the "Pallet Jack Option" for mine. A mere $90 plus a month of browsing Craigslist, throw in a can of yellow spray paint, some long lag bolts and scrap lumber, and you're ready to go. :)

Kirk

[Mike Spanbauer]

Lol... okay, so you've got me on the mobile base :P

Pretty dang sweet machine though, that's some HEAVY "ARN" :)

mike