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View Full Version : Part of an earlier thread concerning Cermark



Tom Cullen
04-03-2007, 10:40 AM
when I use Cermark being careful to follow the directions, to engrave Zippo lighters, it lasers well and I get good dark markings but I noticed when I was cleaning them up after engraving, under running water that the lasered image would tend to scratch very easy? I though this stuff was pretty durable and a permanent mark as well as resistant to scratching. I didn't use anything other than my fingers to clean the pieces ( although I dare say it was my finger nails that actually scratched the surface) . The Zippos are the standard looking silver ( Stainless ) I cleaned them with rubbing Alcohol before spraying with the Cermark . Any thoughts? besides keeping my nails shorter :D

Thanks
Tom

Wil Lambert
04-03-2007, 11:04 AM
when I use Cermark being careful to follow the directions, to engrave Zippo lighters, it lasers well and I get good dark markings but I noticed when I was cleaning them up after engraving, under running water that the lasered image would tend to scratch very easy? I though this stuff was pretty durable and a permanent mark as well as resistant to scratching. I didn't use anything other than my fingers to clean the pieces ( although I dare say it was my finger nails that actually scratched the surface) . The Zippos are the standard looking silver ( Stainless ) I cleaned them with rubbing Alcohol before spraying with the Cermark . Any thoughts? besides keeping my nails shorter :D

Thanks
Tom

Try engraving it a little slower. Sounds like the bond was not made completely. I have had this happen before. The engraving looks good until you rub too hard an the black start coming off. Another thing try using Acetone for cleaning instead of rubbing alcohol.

Wil

Tom Cullen
04-03-2007, 12:20 PM
Hi Wil,
Thanks for the reply , YES! thats exactly what happens. I would hate to do 150 of theses and have the design rub or scratch off in someones pocket in a matter of hours. I will sure take your advice to heart , but tell me? am I correct in assuming if done right the image would be permanent and fairly scratch resistant?

Thanks
Tom

Bruce Volden
04-03-2007, 12:42 PM
Tom,


I haven't done any Zippos, but have engraved tons of knives!! Cermark WILL NOT scratch off without removing the metal. Hate that about it when I blow a knife:D


Bruce

Joe Pelonio
04-03-2007, 12:43 PM
Tom,


I haven't done any Zippos, but have engraved tons of knives!! Cermark WILL NOT scratch off without removing the metal. Hate that about it when I blow a knife:D


Bruce

I did a zippo (one) for a guy, and found the metal had a clear coating. I had to engrave that off, then apply the cermark and engrave again. After that was all done it would not come off with a fingernail (didn't try anything harder to test it).

Tom Cullen
04-03-2007, 12:52 PM
Joe, do you think Wil's idea about using Acetone would remove the coating?

Tom

Joe Pelonio
04-03-2007, 2:50 PM
Joe, do you think Wil's idea about using Acetone would remove the coating?

Tom
It might, depending on what the coating it. I found it easy to apply the cermark without moving one lighter, but for multiples that could be a challenge. Unfortunately you don't usually have spares to test on.

Richard Rumancik
04-03-2007, 3:06 PM
I have found that promotional products made overseas are unpredictable as to what the plating and surface actually is. I have seen some mugs that are called stainless but copper colored - seems that they have either a brass plating and/or organic coating (I haven't investigated.) They should not have to lacquer stainless but it is hard to say what is on it. Many promotional products are "no-name" products and you will never be able to get back to the source. But for a Zippo lighter you should be able to find out from the distributor or the company itself. I doubt acetone alone would take off a clear coat or lacquer.

Properly applied Cermark should not come off with a fingernail.

Sometimes I have been able to salvage a mismarked item by sanding off the mark. This works on brushed stainless but not as suitable on polished knives. I use 3M autobody paper in 1500 and 2000 grit. It is a very fine paper. I do it wet; it is a little messy but can get you out of trouble on occasion. You may have to go beyond the marking zone to blend it in. It is worth a try in cases where you have nothing to lose.

Brian Robison
04-03-2007, 3:07 PM
Are you sure they are stainless and not plated brass?

Tom Cullen
04-03-2007, 3:27 PM
Thanks Richard,
Will give the sand paper a shot, sounds like it might work in this case. Brian I'm pretty sure it's stainless, after doing more research online I'm beginning to think maybe I didn't let the Cermark spray dry in long enough? from what I have read you should let it dry for about 15-20 mins. My speed and power settings may need tweaked as well.

Thanks All
Tom

Brian Robison
04-03-2007, 3:37 PM
You may want to try the Thermark instead of Cermark.
I like it for spraying. I just get it in the 7oz.(I think) spray can. I will sometimes dry with a hair dryer to speed things up.

Gary Hair
04-03-2007, 4:06 PM
Thanks Richard,
Will give the sand paper a shot, sounds like it might work in this case. Brian I'm pretty sure it's stainless, after doing more research online I'm beginning to think maybe I didn't let the Cermark spray dry in long enough? from what I have read you should let it dry for about 15-20 mins. My speed and power settings may need tweaked as well.

Thanks All
Tom

I just let mine dry to a point where it is even in color. You can tell the dry areas from the wet areas pretty easily. I don't think it has ever taken more than a minute or two for mine to dry. Maybe you are putting it on too thick? I can still see the metal surface through the layer of Cermark, barely, but it is visible.

Gary

Bruce Boone
04-03-2007, 4:55 PM
My advice would be to blast it with heat. It's hard to overdo it when it comes to power on Cermark. It will turn a slight red color if and when you get too much power, but it's tough to do, especially on pieces that are a good heat sink.

Bill Cunningham
04-03-2007, 8:19 PM
I had posted this in the other thread, before I notice you started one for the cermark question....

I can't remember my exact settings, I'm not in the shop right now, and not near my files. But, With a 30 watt laser you will have to slow it down 'a lot'. If I'm just running text and line art, I will slow my 35 watt machine down to 12% and 100 power at a minimum of 600 dpi.. I usually use 1200 dpi on stainless.. If it's coming off, you will really have to burn it in there..

Rodne Gold
04-04-2007, 1:47 AM
2 things happen with cermark/thermark whatever.
Firstly the compound discolours cos of heat
and secondly it bonds to the metal cos of heat
Its essentially a pottery glaze which is "fired" onto the metal. The firing bonds and colours in one go.
The ideal is to use enough power so it does both simultaneously without overburning
You have to thermally shock the substrate. Too much power will burn adjacent to where you want , leading to an "overburnt" image , too thick a layer will not allow the power applied to thermally shock the under substrate , leading to the rub off situation.
Ideally a 1.5" lens will give better results due to its increased power density and using an airbrush to spray the item will give the uniform thin layer of "glaze" it needs. We dilute the material and use a paasche airgbrush , the secret of airbrushing is to use a gravity fed hopper as opposed to the jar with the siphon tube , the jar system always clogs the brush , the hopper doesnt. We also spray in an enclosed box , and recover overspray for use again.
In fact we also recover the residue we wash off for reuse.
The mark should be ULTRA durable as it merges with the substrate and even if sanded off , you should still see an impression where it was.
Try a thinner layer and whack up your power , focus is CRITICAL.
Stainless steel zippos (the originals ) are never coated , we have never had to clean one with anything barring a degreaser.
The rule of thumb , ie full power and use the speed setting equivalnet to your laser power (ie full power , 25% speed for a 25 w laser) sometimes works and sometimes doesnt , we generally use 1/2 the speed recommended , but this is laser specific.
We often add a drop or 2 of dishwasher liquid to the dilute spray as this acts as a wetting agent and we get a much better spread of the marking compound without any beading and adherence issues.