Why an 8" jointer?

[Tom Maple]

I've enjoyed the discussions on this site (and others) on choosing a make of jointer. A common theme as been "spend a little extra and get the 8" machine". Having not owned or used a jointer I must be missing something.
My understanding was a jointer was used for truing the edge of a board prior to making a glue up. A 6" jointer would certainly do that. Particularly a long-bed version such as the PM 54A. One thread mentioned face jointing on an 8" machine allows the user to not rip the wood as small. Isn't that what a surface planer is for? Even small planers can handle 12" wide stock. Is it normal to use a jointer as a surface planer?
Thanks for your patience in answering what may be obvious to an experienced woodworker but is beyond my grasp at this time.
Tom

[Martin Shupe]

Before the board can be put through a surface planer, if must first have a flat face, and a flat edge that is square to said face. You do that on a jointer.

If you have a board that is crooked, and you run it through a planer, without using a jointer, you will have a crooked board with two parallel faces.

For a planer to work, you must first have a flat reference surface or the result will not be a straight board.

Not sure if I am making myself clear, but perhaps someone else can explain it better.

[Noah Katz]

"must first have a flat face, and a flat edge that is square to said face"

What does the edge have to do with it?

[Steve Schoene]

At some point it is necessary to have a square straight edge. It's not absolutely necessary to do before planing, but why plan to first joint the face, then move to the planer to thickness only to subsequently return to the jointer to true the edge. That's why the usual sequence is to flatten the face, joint the edge relative to the flattened face, then thickness the board, and then rip to width.

[Don Bullock]

Tom, that's a great question. I'm right there with you on this one and am now, after a few answers, even more confused.

[Mario Lucchesi]

Think in terms of gluing up a panel. If your jointer can joint an 8 inch board you are gaining 2 inches per board and this adds up quick when making table tops etc. Think of the labor that is saved. Not to mention book cases and other projects.

[Larry Rasmussen]

If you throw a board in the planer to work the face without flattening it on the jointer it gets pressed down flat just on the way though under the blade area. A board with a slight bow or twist for example comes out smooth but pops right back to it's original shape exiting the blade area. You get a nice smooth board same bad shape.

I have a planer, no jointer. Been thinking on continuing to work around the face flattening process but given relatively low cost of entry level jointers I think I will end up with one.

Larry R

[Todd Hoppe]

If you look at the discussion starting on page 26 of this manual for a Grizzly jointer, it will give you a good idea of the difference between jointing and planing:

http://images.grizzly.com/grizzlycom/manuals/g0586_m.pdf

Basically, you use a jointer first. As mentioned above, the jointer makes a very flat face on one face of the board. In otherwords, it creates a single plane on the surface of the wood, no bends, cups, etc.

A thickness planer indexes off that flat face and makes the other side parallel. If you don't use a jointer first, then the problem that can arise is that the infeed and outfeed rollers on the planer can press very hard and temporarily flatten the board, while it is being planed (others I'm sure can comment in greater detail). After the pressure from the rollers is released, you can end up with the surfaces parallel, but with neither flat (i.e. in a single plane).

I hope this helps!

[Ron Brese]

As you progress in your work different projects will come up that require you to straighten longer boards. Bed rails, large table aprons, long boards for table top glue ups, it's at this point you'll realize that you should have spent a couple hundred more dollars for the ability to do this safer and more easily.

Ron

[Matt Day]

This thread has a good description about what a jointer does that a planer doesn't (withouth a sled):
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=54391

Quickly: A jointer gives you a flat, straight face. A planer needs this flat, straight face to use as a reference face to plane the other side parallel to it. Theoretically, if you put a board the shape of a "U" through a planer, the result would be a board the shape of a "U" but with small sections that have parallel faces.

Kind of like integration in math, but I'm not even going to go there!

[Al Willits]

Then ideally, wouldn't a 15 or 20" jointer be the do all, and there'd be no need for a planer?

Al

[Fred Voorhees]

Then ideally, wouldn't a 15 or 20" jointer be the do all, and there'd be no need for a planer?

Al
Not exactly Al. A jointer, no matter how wide, would not specifically make a board "co-planer". That is to say, having both side exactly parallel with each other.

[Fred Voorhees]

At some point it is necessary to have a square straight edge. It's not absolutely necessary to do before planing, but why plan to first joint the face, then move to the planer to thickness only to subsequently return to the jointer to true the edge. That's why the usual sequence is to flatten the face, joint the edge relative to the flattened face, then thickness the board, and then rip to width.

I don't always square up the edge of the freshly "faced" board on the jointer. I have often, just did it the other day, run maybe twenty boards through the planer without a single true,square edge. After all, you did say that you eventually move to the tablesaw to do a straight line rip to width. I usually rip a 16th or 32nd wider and then finish up the cut with another run through the jointer.

[Richard Niemiec]

Some of the confusion may arise from those who are new to the hobby and don't necessairly work with "rough" stock, and get their stock S4S, or surfaced four sides, from a yard or the Borg/Lowes, etc. Say you have S4S 1x stock you want to plane down to 1/2 inch, generally, the S4S stock will be relatively flat and a planer alone, flipping the board every pass or two (which you should do anyway to relieve wood stress - and subsequent deformation - when taking off that much surface area) would do the job. On the other hand, rough stock can be bowed, cupped or twisted. As someone pointed out, if you put something like that in a planer, the planer blades register the knives parallel to the opposite surface, so if you eyeball the end grain, instead of getting a rectangle with the top and bottom being parallel, you get a trapezoid with the top and bottom out of parallel. Ergo, you need a flat "reference" on one side of a board prior to putting it into the planer.

Now, some folks have sleds and jigs and the like and with a bit of shimming and whatever find they can establish a flat side with the planer alone, then flip it over and get parallel sides. I guess this can be done, but I've never tried this and it seems to me to be a lot of trouble unless you absolutely cannot afford a jointer, and don't have a couple of hand planes.

The only other alternative is to go neander for flattening the reference "flat" side of the board prior to planing. When I had a 6" jointer, I was in the middle of a blanket chest where I simply did not want to rip three eight and one half inch wide boards in half to face joint them as the grain pattern was so nice. So I pulled out my planes and winding sticks and flattened the face by hand with a scrub, jack and a #7; it took a little sweat as this was about 12 linear feet of stock altogether, but it was worth the effort. When doing this, you don't absolutely have to get a totally perfect surface, e.g., there can be a few depressions or marks, or whatever in the surface as long as it is flat. A good reference is to put the board on the tablesaw top or other flat surface and see if it rocks. I subsequently upgraded to an 8" DJ-20 jointer, and having that extra 2" does make a difference.

Hope this helps get the concept across. RN

[glenn bradley]

As I am saving my pennies to upgrade from a 6" that is inadequate for my needs I have even moved toward thinking about a 10" or 12". My inability to face plane stock easily has me in a constant state of "work around".

I had no idea how much I would want the ability to surface rough lumber but having a good saw and a good planer only puts a fine point on where my struggles lie; getting a flat surface to start from.

As stated, planers create parallel surfaces. If the reference surface is bowed or twisted, the planer gives you a bowed or twisted board with parallel sides. Edge jointing is important but not as important to me as having a flat reference surface to begin squaring my stock from.

[Tom Maple]

Thanks for all the good feedback, you guys are up at it early!
I'm starting to get the idea of face jointing if a board is cupped across it's width. But what about a board that is bowed (like a ski) or twisted? While pushing it through the jointer knives and keeping pressure on the infeed table, won't the wood follow the twist, or "spiral" and still end up twisted? Or does a twisted board require a different technique? Perhaps wedges or shims to hold it at a particular position?
Tom

[Alex Shanku]

While pushing it through the jointer knives and keeping pressure on the infeed table, won't the wood follow the twist, or "spiral" and still end up twisted? Or does a twisted board require a different technique? Perhaps wedges or shims to hold it at a particular position?
Tom

Pressure is kept on the outfeed side of the jointer. Well, execpt for the first couple of inches to get it going. A jointer is a tool where feel and touch come into play while trying to clean up a board.

[Art Mulder]

Tom,

You might want to review this thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=30519) from the Archives that Dennis Peacock started about a year ago. It covers how various pro shops get along without jointers at all. A lot of good discussion was in there about the use of jointers.

As for planers... the shortest answer I've come up with is this: Banana in = Banana out.

However, just to contradict myself. For about the first 8 years of my hobby I got by without a power jointer at all -- I just had an old Stanley #7c plane for edge jointing. Through carefully selecting stock, I got along pretty well with just using a planer to surface stock. I've noticed, on various forums including this one, other quiet folk who've had the same experience. It doesn't get announced much, since the conventional wisdom is: joint first, planer second. But you can do it.

have fun
...art

[Brian Weick]

Then ideally, wouldn't a 15 or 20" jointer be the do all, and there'd be no need for a planer?

Al
NO ! the jointer is just to get out the defects on the board to be square- you cant surface plane a board that accurate on a jointer- not in my book.
Brain

[Jim Becker]

I'm starting to get the idea of face jointing if a board is cupped across it's width. But what about a board that is bowed (like a ski) or twisted? While pushing it through the jointer knives and keeping pressure on the infeed table, won't the wood follow the twist, or "spiral" and still end up twisted? Or does a twisted board require a different technique? Perhaps wedges or shims to hold it at a particular position?
Tom

No, Tom. The idea is that you don't put "pressure" on the board as you make your flattening passes more than you need to keep it moving and any pressure you do use gets focused on the outfeed side as you get the board flatter and flatter. If you are actually deforming the board, you're defeating the purpose of face jointing it. Best practice is also to rough cut down the boards to shorter lengths/components, especially when you are dealing with more than "a little" twist or bow, to reduce the amount of material that needs to be removed to get a face flat.

Jointing is an "art" that just takes a little practice to get "the feel" down. It's not hard, but is something to learn.

[Don Bullock]

Some of the confusion may arise from those who are new to the hobby and don't necessairly work with "rough" stock, and get their stock S4S, or surfaced four sides, from a yard or the Borg/Lowes, etc. Say you have S4S 1x stock you want to plane down to 1/2 inch, generally, the S4S stock will be relatively flat and a planer alone, flipping the board every pass or two (which you should do anyway to relieve wood stress - and subsequent deformation - when taking off that much surface area) would do the job. On the other hand, rough stock can be bowed, cupped or twisted. As someone pointed out, if you put something like that in a planer, the planer blades register the knives parallel to the opposite surface, so if you eyeball the end grain, instead of getting a rectangle with the top and bottom being parallel, you get a trapezoid with the top and bottom out of parallel. Ergo, you need a flat "reference" on one side of a board prior to putting it into the planer.

This may be true, especially for those of us who do not have much, if any, rough sawn material available not just because we are new to the hobby. I don't have any sawmills nearby, nor a large lumber yard with rough lumber. All the lumber I purchase form hardwood suppliers is jointed on one side and planed to a specific thickness. There is a very large lumber yard in the Los Angeles area that I haven't been to. Perhaps they have rough sawn wood.


Great information. Now I understand and I'll have to wait until I can afford an 8" or bigger. I wondered why everyone kept saying, "Bigger is better." Thank you.

[Richard Niemiec]

Don: Even if not locally available, mail order lumber is an option. I've had success with Steve Wall Lumber in Mayodan, NC, pretty good prices too. Google Wall Lumber and you'll find it. Other folks here have reported satisfaction. No affiliation, just satisfied customer.

rn

[Don Bullock]

Don: Even if not locally available, mail order lumber is an option. I've had success with Steve Wall Lumber in Mayodan, NC, pretty good prices too. Google Wall Lumber and you'll find it. Other folks here have reported satisfaction. No affiliation, just satisfied customer.

rn

Richard,
Thank you for the suggestion. I'm planning on checking out some online wood sources and have seen many who have been pleased with Steve Wall. Since I don't have a planer or jointer, nor the money and space yet, I'm stuck with what I can buy locally. It's fine for now, but I do plan on moving and setting up a more permanent shop when I retire in a couple of years.

[Ted Miller]

Don, Us guys here is Southern Cal have it tough finding good woods for furniture and the like to mill on our own. To many tree hugers here and mills are far and in between. The guys back east have it made with mills around. Here the few yards we got carry most hardwoods S4S and the price is crazy. There are a few smaller yards that carry some rough and its S2S and of course the thicknesses are not close from one board to another. I feel I cannot live and build without my jointer and planner if I want to keep the wood prices down.

My .02 cents is that for us here in CA, lumber shipped from back east rough and you tack on shipping then you are getting the same prices per bf here S4S. I have a hard time buying lumber blind, I like to sift through it...

[Pete Brown]

Don, Us guys here is Southern Cal have it tough finding good woods for furniture and the like to mill on our own. To many tree hugers here and mills are far and in between.

I don't know that I would blame the "tree huggers" for that :)

I think it's just real economics and climate. Pennsylvania has some of the nicest cherry and maple around due primarily to climate and to plantings made after most of the hardwood on the east coast was harvested a hundred+ years back.. I suspect southern california doesn't have any real stands of timber you could harvest for woodworking. CA also has some of the only old growth timber (up north) in the US. Many folks don't realize that you can't find any original growth timber on the east coast because it was all cut down.

Also, running a business in California is more expensive than most other areas. :)

Finally, although this is just anecdotal, I understand that most homes in CA don't have room for a workshop either inside or outside the house. That means the demand just won't be there.

Finally, the east coast just has a lot of history when it comes to sawmills. Some of them are here because there has always been a sawmill there :)

Pete

[Tom Maple]

No, Tom. The idea is that you don't put "pressure" on the board as you make your flattening passes more than you need to keep it moving and any pressure you do use gets focused on the outfeed side as you get the board flatter and flatter. If you are actually deforming the board, you're defeating the purpose of face jointing it. Best practice is also to rough cut down the boards to shorter lengths/components, especially when you are dealing with more than "a little" twist or bow, to reduce the amount of material that needs to be removed to get a face flat.
Jim,
I probably used the wrong word when I said put pressure on the board. I actually meant just enough pressure to maintain contact with the jointer tables. Not enough to flatten out the board. If a severly twisted board is run through the jointer without compensating for the twist won't the board develop a taper across its width after several passes through the machine? That is where, as you suggest, it needs to be cut to shoter lengths. Or perhaps that piece of wood should be used in the stove:D The actual technique is something I will acquire after time, I suspect.
Thanks for all the advice, i enjoy everyone's input on this forum.
Tom

[Paul Simmel]

Tom!

>>> If a severly twisted board is run through the jointer without compensating for the twist won't the board develop a taper across its width after several passes through the machine? That is where, as you suggest, it needs to be cut to shoter lengths. Or perhaps that piece of wood should be used in the stove

A jointer does three things:

-=-=-=-

a) Flattens/straightens a board’s face.

b) Squares a face to its edge.

c) Edge-joints a board (a form of straightening) for glue up.

-=-=-=-

As to a) only, all you are doing is flattening the face. Run a twisted/bowed piece through enough times with very very little downward pressure on the <out feed> table, eventually the bottom of the board will be just as flat as the out feed table. The top of the board will be twisted and bowed (same as it was). That’s the way it is supposed to be.

<Now> is where the planer comes in. The newly flattened bottom of the board is now a reference; it is going to lie flat on the planer’s in feed table. The top portion of the board (twisted and bowed) is going to go through a series of passes through the planer until it (the top) is no longer twisted but parallel with the bottom.

You have just straightened a twisted/bowed board, <and> thicknessed it.

[Roy Harding]

This may be true, especially for those of us who do not have much, if any, rough sawn material available not just because we are new to the hobby. I don't have any sawmills nearby, nor a large lumber yard with rough lumber. All the lumber I purchase form hardwood suppliers is jointed on one side and planed to a specific thickness. There is a very large lumber yard in the Los Angeles area that I haven't been to. Perhaps they have rough sawn wood.


Great information. Now I understand and I'll have to wait until I can afford an 8" or bigger. I wondered why everyone kept saying, "Bigger is better." Thank you.

If you do a lot of woodworking, do yourself a financial favour and find a source of rough lumber. Learn how to work it (IE - Joint face, joint edge, plane to thickness, rip to width)

You will save SUBSTANTIAL dollars - even though you will be buying more b/f than you would if you were buying S4S lumber.

If - on the other hand - you make one or two projects a year, the additional expense of jointer and planer may not be worth your while. (Not to mention the learning curve involved in learning to properly mill your lumber - not that said curve is all THAT steep!)

It all comes down to how much woodworking you do.

No matter how you do it - have fun!

Roy

[Don Morris]

I'm just a serious hobby person. When I was doing a 7' face frame cabinet for LOML and running the 7' boards past the middle of the boards on my 6' jet jointer, the jointer started to tip over. Right then and there I decided it just wasn't big enough, even though it had given me several years of good work. When I had boards over 6" wide I took it to the local WWing shop and they jointed it for me for $$$. I rarely need boards more than 7" to 8" wide but I'm sure pros do. My shop won't accommodate more than an 8" jointer anyway. But In my dreams....You guys don't address one other point that might be worth mentioning. If anyone's upgrading from a 6" to 8" jointer, if finances allow, also upgrade to the spiral head. When I upgraded I added a Byrd Shelix. Wow, smooth and quiet, and does a nice job, even on woods that are usually tough to get a smooth finish. Not a necessity but a real niceity (sp?)

[Don Bullock]

If you do a lot of woodworking, do yourself a financial favour and find a source of rough lumber. Learn how to work it (IE - Joint face, joint edge, plane to thickness, rip to width)

You will save SUBSTANTIAL dollars - even though you will be buying more b/f than you would if you were buying S4S lumber.

If - on the other hand - you make one or two projects a year, the additional expense of jointer and planer may not be worth your while. (Not to mention the learning curve involved in learning to properly mill your lumber - not that said curve is all THAT steep!)

It all comes down to how much woodworking you do.

No matter how you do it - have fun!

Roy

Roy,
Thanks for the clarification. I'd like to do a lot of woodworking in the near future. My present plans are to finish teaching this year and next year and then retire. Upon retirement my wife and I plan to make some kind of move. We have to move mainly because we have too many dogs for our present location, but we also want a place where I can set up a shop. That's when a jointer and planer will be necessary along with buying rough cut lumber to save money.

Yes, I realize that there is a learning curve. I'm working on that now. Because I'm coming back to woodworking after over twenty years away from it, I'm finding that I need to take some classes. I've already signed up for a class titled Introduction to Furniture at my closest WoodCraft store and have taken a seminar on the table saw as a refresher for it. I have also bought several videos and have watched many of the ones I find on the Internet. I've learned a lot of new information recently. Actually I find the responses from people like you here at the "Creek" to be the most helpful information. I also realize, as you suggest, that there will be a big learning curve on the actual tools. I'm very excited and can't wait.

[David Weaver]

I have a 6 inch jointer, and would say that as a beginner, I can already see the limitations when I have stock that is cupped or whatever. i wish I would've gotten an 8 or 12 inch jointer - even something old with a larger bed.

The next one I get will be much bigger.