Cabinets with loose tenon joinery - no dados

[Glen Blanchard]

Let me make it clear up front that I am no cabinet maker. In fact, I have never made a cabinet before. That being said, I am thinking of making some cabinets for the shop. They need not be fancy, but need to be stong. I am thinking of using Baltic Birch plywood for both the carcase and the doors as well.

Here is where my question comes in. From the limited reading I have done, it seems that cabinets are usually built with rabbets and dados. I am wondering how effective replacing the rabbets and dados with loose tenon joinery (via Festool's Domino) would work.

Comments?

[Eric Wong]

Someone else will have to comment on the Domino specifically, but I routinely use biscuits for cabinet and carcase construction instead of rabbets and dadoes. I sometimes still use dadoes, primarily when I need alignment or when the case is too wide to clamp effectively.

[glenn bradley]

I suppose it would work but with the proven method of dados and rabbets, why?

Have the LOYL start reading here = = =

I mean, YES, you absolutely cannot make those cabinets without a Domino. It would be foolish to attempt this type of cabinetry with any other method. Mankind has been waiting for years to discover how to join plywood. Get one now before they're all spoken for.

[Glen Blanchard]

I suppose it would work but with the proven method of dados and rabbets, why?

Mainly time and hassle. I kind of expect Bob will have the Domino on my doorstep some time next week, so it will be sitting around the shop by the time I begin this project. Just seems like using it would be much faster than dados and rabbets. However, I don't know much when it comes to making cabinets - this is why I ask.

[Dennis O'Leary]

Hi Glen

I'll pm you with some good links. You'll have the carcases finished before the next bloke has set up the dado cutter in the TS. Fast, accurate and strong.

[Dan Lautner]

This is going to be fun. All the old timers (craftsman) will soon realize the wheel has been reinvented. Forget all the tricks, jigs and nonsense that you used to use for joinery. Yes the Domino will join plywood faster and allow for dry fit. Yes it is a stronger joint. Yes all cabinet shops will have this tool very soon.

Dan

[Terry Fogarty]

The Domino is made for it.

This is a 2300 x1200 x 900 cupboard for a surf club and is entirly Domied using 82 @ 8 x 40mm Domino tenons.

The back, top, bottom, shelves and one side is 18mm ply and the good side that will be seen is frame and panel Oak, also dominoed.

The good thing is you use the 15mm Domino depth setting on the 18mm ply side and the 25mm depth setting into the shelves for an overall 40mm Domino length.

It might seem alot of Dominos, but it was super quick and it went together perfectly square with "no need" to check for diagonals.

You lucky lot who will pick up your beloved Domi will be in Woodworking Heaven this weekend:D

[David Weaver]

Unless the dominoes have a real problem with shear strength, I don't see why there would be any problem. You'll be able to zip the whole thing together just after cutting the panels, and you'll have time to go watch TV while everyone else would be checking their rabbets and calculating what panel sizes they need.

If you're not a cabinet maker, as you profess, why be bound by the old standards. I don't see how the domino is any different than cutting a bazillion small mortise and loose tenon joints, just a lot faster, so it's not like it hasn't been done before.

Go for it and post your results. As long as very little of the domino is exposed between the joints, and it'll be almost zero, right? - all that you have to worry about is shear strength. Just put them in aplenty if you're going to store something heavy on the cabinet shelves.

[Dan Lautner]

"why be bound by the old standards. "

This is exactly what a lot of folks here will not understand until they see how much quicker and stronger a domi joint will be.

Dan

[David Weaver]

I thought the tool was a joke until I saw some of the work people have been posting with it.

I first followed the "it's just a $600 plate jointer", and then followed the "It's a fancy small router that fits in your had for about 4x the price of anything else made of similar materials".

After seeing the results that people have posted, I think it's a fantastic tool, justifiable even for an enthusiastic mathematician who wants to build something efficiently, and I wish I could justify it. I think that it might be so good and so quick that my old-school fart-a-round methods that I enjoy so much would be gone. The things I like about building stuff are the things that nobody else sees, and I'm still a novice. They're really not any better than what a domino would do, but if I put something good quality together really fast with one, what would I do with my spare time? My slowness keeps the cost of my hobby down by spreading out the time between trips to get materials.

But if I ever had to put together a bunch of stuff quickly, I'd abandon all of that in a hurry.

[frank shic]

glen, using the domino loose tenons should work fine. i built a bunch of shop cabinets with just biscuits and they're still hanging on the walls without any difficulties. if anything, the loose tenons should hold even better. skip the rabbets and dado unless you're having a real trouble with aligning the edges.

[Neil Lamens]

Hey Glen.......before I begin..thanks for your help.

As for the Domino, I have no experience with it. I have watched numerous demonstartions and I'm of the belief that if you select the right "domino", you shouldn't have a problem. Intuitively, I would raise the bottom of each cabinet "OH"... say.... 3/4" or abouts so the downward weighted pressure on the cabinet bottom had a bit more meat to hang-on to. Making it a flush bottom won't leave much lower structure in your Birch ply End Panels. I know the glue will surround the domino and fill the void; but still I would raise the bottoms a bit, then skirt it.

Just from a manufacturing perspective, assuming we are making numerous cabinets, as Glen discribes, I wonder where the Domino would reach diminishing returns and loose to the Dado and rabbet. Having never planned the machining of a job with a Domino, does seems like alot of material handling and set-up. By the time I build a few jigs to make my domino more efficient, my 3/8" blade cutting all my dado's, then a TS blade switch for my rabbets which I'll need anyway to cut for my back panels............I just wonder when we would reach diminishing returns with a domino.

The domino might just reach economies of scale with small "one of" projects.........which I guess is what most of us do.

Just think'in.........Neil

[John Lucas]

Glen,
YEs, yes, yes. I have now completed 5 base cabinets of white melamine 3/4" part core board (yucky stuff) and have used Domino in various configurations. The final one is with 5mm spaced every 5" and wile TB Melamine Adhesive. No mechanical fasteners used. Clamped for 30 min. No pictures yet. Just hours of video to be assembled into a DVD on the subject...soon. As part of same project, am using Domino for drawers and tray rollouts. Using "through" dominos in that I use 1/2" ply for sides and place them in a clamped corner and make one full mortise right thru the side and into the frant/back. Works plenty well. Looks nice - I have even gone to staining the Domino end right before I tap in all the way (flush). This week I am doing face frames -- that is a shoe-in. Am I "making work" to make the Domino work. NO. I am trying to compare joinery...right now, Domino saves times.
Picture of Elena with base cabinet #5 in background
http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fes-mf30.jpg

Here is link: http://www.woodshopdemos.com/fes-mft-1.htm

[Alan Tolchinsky]

I'm almost afraid to admit this but I've built many shop cabinets with just 3/4 borg ply, wood screws and glue. Or I used pocket screws with/ without glue. And I've used biscuits too. They've all held up just fine and seem as sturdy as Fort Knox. Rabbiting doesn't add that much more glue surface and aids more in alignment than strength IMHO. So why spend all the effort doing it? Have I sinned here with my methods?

As far as Domino goes, it looks really cool but what are the costs for all the "loose tenons" as well as the tool? Is this a slight overkill for shop cabinets? I think it is a large investment but to each their own I say and have fun with it if you get it. I think we all just like to buy new tools and believe me there will be something else down the road that will be as irresistable and cost big bucks. I'm sticking with the proven methods becasue they work and I'm running out of space for any new tools. :)

[John Bush]

Hi Glen,
I made my shop cabinets using the cheapy borg ply and I suffered thru warpage issues. No dadoes and just screwed together worked well tho.
You mentioned making doors and I recommend making deep drawers with full extension guides. I am able to store and access all my "stuff" with limited bending over and I don't have to remove things to reach the back of the cabinet. Good luck, JCB.

[John Stevens]

Here is where my question comes in. From the limited reading I have done, it seems that cabinets are usually built with rabbets and dados. I am wondering how effective replacing the rabbets and dados with loose tenon joinery (via Festool's Domino) would work.

Comments?

Another vote for either biscuits or screws, although the Domino loose tenons will also be more than strong enough for the job and save you a lot of time compared to rabbets and dados. Even if you're going to buy the Domino, read Danny Proulx's books on making cabinets if you really want to simplify the job and achieve a result that looks good and is more than strong enough.

Having built cabinets with according to Danny Proulx's method, I would never bother to use dados or rabbets. It would be like writing with a quill pen: fine if the goal is simply to write with a quill pen, but wasteful of your time and effort if the goal is what you're writing, not how you're writing it.