Festool Domino $900+ ? Holy mackels

[Ben Grunow]

Are they really that expensive? I saw/used one today and it was really impressive but where does the pricing come from? The device is simply way overpriced for what it is. I guess the laws of supply and demand are in full effect here as the owner of the store told me he had sold 24 of the 30 coming in.

It is a true time saver but even the nices CMS is only $600 ish. Nutty.

I wonder what people are using them for. I would probably buy one for business (builder/trim carpenter) but it would have to be for some special job that I have not yet encountered. Pocket screws and biscuits (although I never biscuit except for miters on casings) still have uses, especially in light of the price to change.

Seems like a simple machine that would bore a number of dowel holes next to eachother would be as strong and fast and probably have more glue surface area than the festool tenon. I think the tool I am describing is already out there.

Tell me what you are planning, festool junkies?

(BTW I have ts55 and want more festool tools but this is really crazy)

[Jim Becker]

There have been a number of threads on this already, Ben. For the folks who have bought or are in process of buying, speed and precision are the main drivers. And unlike biscuits or pocket screws, you have a strong lose tenon joint with the Domino.

[Wilbur Pan]

I'm not going to be buying a Domino myself, but based on reviews, I can appreciate the usefulness for the potential Domino customer. The main advantage of the Domino is the speed of putting together mortise and tenon joints, even at odd angles, which will make the chair makers happy. Reviews have commented on being able to whack out as many as 32 mortise and tenon joints (one table's worth) in 30 minutes with the Domino.

Whether these things are worth $700-900 is up to you, but I think the key thing is the time savings. At a (probably underestimated) labor rate of $30/hour, and assuming that the Domino saves you 2 hours per project, the Domino pays for itself after making 15 tables or chairs, which is two dining room sets.

[Dave Falkenstein]

The Domino brochure came in the mail today. You're right - it is $920 for the full kit which includes the machine, a full complement of tenons, all of the cutters, and two stops. I have a project coming up that includes a bunch of biscuit joints, and I'm thinking that I might "justify" the purchase based on that project. Dream on!!! The early adopters are likely professionals that cut a bunch of mortise and tenon joints, like every day.

[Dave Sabo]

Remember, Festool doesn't just wake up one morning and say gee, how much can we squeeze out of those rich Americans, that just sit around and watch Norm all day. The Domino's price is a combo of R&D amatoratization, raw material cost, overhead, German labor (can you say expensive), shipping, advertising, profit, yearly currency arbitrage costs, and others. So it's not like Festool is making 500 bucks off of you on the thing. Worth/value of a tool is a very personal thing, and I'll agree with you that not a lot of folks will benefit from a domino and it's cost.

Do you own a battery drill? Is it worth the 50 to 450 dollars you paid for it? My grandad would take your same attitude towards the domino about your drill. To him they are overprices at even 50 bucks, and cannot justify the expense for his type of woodworking.

[James Biddle]

The cool thing about supply and demand is that if the price is too high, the demand will decrease, as will the price. Alternatively, if the price is too low, the demand will increase. Again, so will the price. In order to participate, you should not buy if the price is too high and buy if the price is in your target range. Somewhere in this range is the optimal price, but it may take quite some time for that price to stabilize.

Meanwhile, I'm hoping to be using the Domino I have on order.

[Mitchell Andrus]

I ship 600 to 700 projects a year - I work alone. Every tool I get makes the job go quicker, and gets me more time with the kids. I have a Domino in my future because I've already figured that on a third of my projects, it will save me 5 to 10 minutes each project on average. That's 16 to 32 hours the first year alone.

The bonus is that a project built with biscuits needs to stay in the clamps for two hours. If I can pop a few brads into the tenons from the back side (I usually can), I can get moving along to the finish booth much sooner moving the ship date up a bit.

My shop rate is $80.00 hour - it's worth $900.00 to me.

Besides, I'm a gadget freak.

[Per Swenson]

Ben,

Apples to oranges is the comparison I am about to give...

The lamello biscuit jointer is what? About $850 with biscuits?

Of course this is no biscuit jointer.

For those off us who put together some rather expensive materials

in the course of making a living and I know you fit this category...

The price shouldn't be a issue as the rate of return is about

two days of work.

Per

[Brice Burrell]

Price of the Domino $660, $720 with cross stops and narrow stock jig,without tenons.

[Alan Schaffter]

Just wait til we get the pricing on the Festool Kapex SCMS!!!!! Some are saying $1300.

[Steve Rowe]

Are they really that expensive? I saw/used one today and it was really impressive but where does the pricing come from? The device is simply way overpriced for what it is. I guess the laws of supply and demand are in full effect here as the owner of the store told me he had sold 24 of the 30 coming in.

It is a true time saver but even the nices CMS is only $600 ish. Nutty.

I wonder what people are using them for. I would probably buy one for business (builder/trim carpenter) but it would have to be for some special job that I have not yet encountered. Pocket screws and biscuits (although I never biscuit except for miters on casings) still have uses, especially in light of the price to change.

Seems like a simple machine that would bore a number of dowel holes next to eachother would be as strong and fast and probably have more glue surface area than the festool tenon. I think the tool I am describing is already out there.

Tell me what you are planning, festool junkies?

(BTW I have ts55 and want more festool tools but this is really crazy)

Overpriced? Lets compare some other top notch items available that will perform similar functions.
Leigh FMT - $879 + cost of plunge router
Hoffman PDS-32 starter - $682
Lamello TOP20S3 - $799
Festool Domino - $660

The Domino price looks pretty reasonable to me.
Steve

[Dave Lehnert]

I'll just hold off for the $199 Porter Cable model that is bound to follow at some point. or better yet the $19.99 Harbor Freight

[Art Mulder]

I'll just hold off for the $199 Porter Cable model that is bound to follow at some point. or better yet the $19.99 Harbor Freight
Don't hold your breath, Dave. You've probably got a 17 year wait.

There is a reason that biscuit joiners were invented about 20 years before they suddenly "burst" onto the market in the mid 80's. That was the 17 year patent that Lamello held.

----
Edit: typos

[Gary Keedwell]

:confused:
Overpriced? Lets compare some other top notch items available that will perform similar functions.
Leigh FMT - $879 + cost of plunge router
Hoffman PDS-32 starter - $682
Lamello TOP20S3 - $799
Festool Domino - $660


The Domino price looks pretty reasonable to me.



Steve
Didn't you forget the "tenons" and accessories that bring the domino to around $1,000. Who would just buy the "machine" without the goodies?
Maybe Uncle Bob could shed a light and tell us the "average price" of a typical domino order.:o
Gary K.

[Bob Marino]

:confused:
Didn't you forget the "tenons" and accessories that bring the domino to around $1,000. Who would just buy the "machine" without the goodies?
Maybe Uncle Bob could shed a light and tell us the "average price" of a typical domino order.:o
Gary K.

Most, not all, but most are buying the Domino Set (joiner + cross stop and trim stop) ($720.00) and the Systainer with the 1000+ assorted tenons and 4 carbide cutters ($200.00). Total $920.00. Yes, not in everyone's budget, but I have a feeling this will be one of Festool's best selling tools, if not thee best selling tool in Festool's lineup.

Bob

[Gary Keedwell]

Most, not all, but most are buying the Domino Set (joiner + cross stop and trim stop) ($720.00) and the Systainer with the 1000+ assorted tenons and 4 carbide cutters ($200.00). Total $920.00. Yes, not in everyone's budget, but I have a feeling this will be one of Festool's best selling tools, if not thee best selling tool in Festool's lineup.

Bob
Thanks Bob....That was my "gut" feeling that people would order it with the "works". Now that you brought it up....can you "leak out" what the top 3 Festool "best sellers" are?:confused:

Gary K.

[Bob Marino]

Thanks Bob....That was my "gut" feeling that people would order it with the "works". Now that you brought it up....can you "leak out" what the top 3 Festool "best sellers" are?:confused:

Gary K.Gary,

I am not sure, but my guess would be the Rotex, TS 55 saw and CT vac would have to be up there.

Bob

[Steve Rowe]

:confused:
Didn't you forget the "tenons" and accessories that bring the domino to around $1,000. Who would just buy the "machine" without the goodies?
Maybe Uncle Bob could shed a light and tell us the "average price" of a typical domino order.:o
Gary K.
No - I didn't forget anything. I was trying to get things to the least common demoninator for comparison purposes. For example, if you went with the Hoffmann PDS-32 with all the goodies, it would be well over $1000. With the Domino, you don't have to buy anything more other than a bag of Dominos for full functionality with the stock cutter just like you would need to purchase biscuits for a biscuit jointer. I suppose you could make your own biscuits and floating tenons for the Domino, but I don't know why anyone would want to.
Steve

[Ben Grunow]

To me, Mitchell is the ideal customer for the Domino. Guys liek me and Per are just buying them because we know how to make M&T joints and we are gadget freaks (useful, well made gadgets).

I guess the answers are as I suspected. Those who can afford, do and those who cant, might (we all have credit cards).

About 40 hours has passed since demo-ing the tool and I think I "need" one.

Happy mortising!

Ben

[robert micley]

i got into festool before they began advertsing 4 years ago.a rep was in this hardware store i happened to be driving through in cooperstown.i fell in love with the equipment.now i have been buying from bob marino.the tools that i need from festool are the sander,and saw.i have many other festools but these are the ones i need.i am geeting the domino from bob.someone showed the cost vs a lamello.now,i love the lamello but i do not see me needing this much with this tool.when i make many projects i throw in some dowels to align top and bottom from shifting as i clamp.biscuits do not do this.my main concern with this machine is wether it shifts sideways a little as it plunges.they advetise making rows of tenons precisely.any shifting of machine will affect the lining of the tenons.i will try it out and you have the 30 day return.

[Gary Keedwell]

To me, Mitchell is the ideal customer for the Domino. Guys liek me and Per are just buying them because we know how to make M&T joints and we are gadget freaks (useful, well made gadgets).

I guess the answers are as I suspected. Those who can afford, do and those who cant, might (we all have credit cards).

About 40 hours has passed since demo-ing the tool and I think I "need" one.

Happy mortising!


Ben
Ben, you might be half right. I love gadgets (tools) and I can afford just about any tool ( within reason) but I don't think I will end up with the domino. Being a somewhat practical guy, the amount of mortise and tennons I do in a one year time might be on 3 or 4 projects. I'm gearing up my shop for retirement and I see my money going towards sanding and dust control ( ct 22) and ROS. Plus I'm thinking about upgrading my bandsaw and maybe taking up turning (Lathe).
As a machinist in my other life, I am intrigued by this new toy, but not enough to dedicate $1000. Maybe down the road when the dust settles and I have everything that I need for that " perfect shop" I'll give it some consideration.
Don't want to throw cold water on the infectuous excitement, but alot of people in my neck of the woods are in trouble with credit. Alot of forclosures. Spend wisely!!!|


Gary K.:o

[Dan Lautner]

"(BTW I have ts55 and want more festool tools but this is really crazy)"


This is crazy. A handheld tool that can accurately handle almost any floating tenon joint with speed never before imagined. This is so crazy that I will agree with bob the Domino will be Festools best selling tool period. This is far and away the most innovative tool festool has ever made. I have held off two projects just to wait for this tool and the cost will be offset after the first is complete. What seems like an overpiced gadget to some seems like a no brain steal to me.

Dan

[Gary Keedwell]

The Domino brochure came in the mail today. You're right - it is $920 for the full kit which includes the machine, a full complement of tenons, all of the cutters, and two stops. I have a project coming up that includes a bunch of biscuit joints, and I'm thinking that I might "justify" the purchase based on that project. Dream on!!! The early adopters are likely professionals that cut a bunch of mortise and tenon joints, like every day.
I agree with Dave. For the people who will be using it frequently....it might pay. For the others...well...it's still a gadget. Not that there's anything wrong with that. If someone gave me one...I wouldn't throw it away!!!

Gary K.;)

[Ben Grunow]

I wonder what Festools profit margins are for the Domino and what is the time to pay off al the invested r and d and advertising and such. (remember, I like festool...I am just sticker shocked or too cheap or both)

Forclosures aplenty everywhere I believe. Not me though....yet.

[ROBERT ELLIS]

This is the first thread I've read on the subject, so my apologies if my comments/question have already been covered in an earlier conversation. Just yesterday looking at the McFeel'ys catalog was the first time I've ever laid eyes on the machine. (Geez where have I been?) So my comment/question is does anyone see a useful benefit of this technology in something like a horizontal boring machine (HZB). I know I do. I've made a lot of doors for cabinets and have made tables by attaching the legs to the aprons using only dowels. I even bought Grizzly's lesser expensive HZB to speed up the process, but seeing a little machine like this with the capability they're offering sounds too good to be true, so I can only imagine the benefits an HZB would have using this technology???

Robert

[Dennis O'Leary]

"(BTW I have ts55 and want more festool tools but this is really crazy)"


This is crazy. A handheld tool that can accurately handle almost any floating tenon joint with speed never before imagined. This is so crazy that I will agree with bob the Domino will be Festools best selling tool period. This is far and away the most innovative tool festool has ever made. I have held off two projects just to wait for this tool and the cost will be offset after the first is complete. What seems like an overpiced gadget to some seems like a no brain steal to me.

Dan

You're a perceptive man, Dan. To all of you doubters, save this post and re-read in about 8 months.

At $80/hr, I paid for mine with one project.

If you cannot justify the purchace price, or simply disagree that the thing is any good - walk away.

[Pete Brown]

This is the first thread I've read on the subject, so my apologies if my comments/question have already been covered in an earlier conversation. Just yesterday looking at the McFeel'ys catalog was the first time I've ever laid eyes on the machine. (Geez where have I been?) So my comment/question is does anyone see a useful benefit of this technology in something like a horizontal boring machine (HZB). I know I do. I've made a lot of doors for cabinets and have made tables by attaching the legs to the aprons using only dowels. I even bought Grizzly's lesser expensive HZB to speed up the process, but seeing a little machine like this with the capability they're offering sounds too good to be true, so I can only imagine the benefits an HZB would have using this technology???

Robert

I don't have my Domino yet (it and the vac are on order with Bob), but from the videos I've seen of it and the design shots, I can't see something like that scaling up to larger tenons. The reason is that the cutter is on a pivot to move side to side, not on some sort of linear slide. The wider the tenon, the larger the arc will need to be and the slower the feed rate in order to avoid having really choppy sides.

On a horizontal borer, you can go pretty deep, then move the piece to the side and rout/bore a clean square mortise (with rounded sides, of course). Then, increase depth if necessary and continue. It's a different model. The horizontal borer can scale up to almost any size mortise because there is no arc generated by the movement of the cutter.

The tiny size of the domino tenons works because the curve ends up being really shallow.

If any Domino owners have sliced through a mortise and can prove/show otherwise, please post.

When mine arrives, I'll test this out myself :)

Pete

[Bob Childress]

Dear Bob Marino,

If you are reading these posts, QUIT IT!! Log out and start shipping Dominoes. Starting with mine. :D :D :p

[Bob Marino]

Dear Bob Marino,

If you are reading these posts, QUIT IT!! Log out and start shipping Dominoes. Starting with mine. :D :D :p

What Dominos?:D :confused: :eek: :D
Bob

[Todd Solomon]

So my comment/question is does anyone see a useful benefit of this technology in something like a horizontal boring machine (HZB). I know I do.
Robert

Hi Robert,

I think the Domino will replace the need for horizontal boring machines in many cases. I have a Felder jointer-planer on order, and bought the chuck for the optional slot mortiser (bolts to the side of the jointer-planer). I decided not to buy the mortiser yet, until I've used my Domino, and can assess whether I need the Felder slot mortiser, but it's quicker to set up and use.

I know two professional woodworkers that both stopped using their slot mortisers, now that they have Dominos (both got early versions). One of these guys sold his $3,000 Multi-router, because the Domino can handle every job he thinks he'll get.

In many cases, you can do a double row of smaller loose tenons (Dominos) instead of one large loose tenon, to get the strength. I did that on my last piece of furniture, even though I was using a horizontal slot mortiser and could have made one large mortise. In some cases, a double row will be stronger than a single tenon, any way. I'm guessing that it'd be rare to need a large horizontal slot mortiser, unless your need demands it. Maybe big entry doors, and the like, would justify a horizontal slot mortiser. Otherwise, a Domino may be an excellent choice.

Todd

[Dennis O'Leary]

If any Domino owners have sliced through a mortise and can prove/show otherwise, please post.

When mine arrives, I'll test this out myself :)

Pete

Almost all joints in household and commercial pieces will be covered by using one or more standard dominos.
The Domino can be used to quickly create the opening for any size or depth mortice, for shop-made floating tenons. With a combination of multiple plunges horizontally and vertically, repeatable 25mm deep mortices can be formed in a piece, and then the depth increased by drilling/chopping by hand. IMHO these would only be needed on very large members, or heavy glassed external doors.

A router morticing jig would do this just as easily, but with more fiddly set up and marking out.

A properly constructed joint, using two 10x50 dominos, easily supported my 200lb+ jumping on it (in shear) with no glue. The resistance to distortion of joints lies in the tight tolerances. If a joint cannot begin to move, it will resist failure as the stresses are transferred to the parent timber.

[Tim Martin]

Incase it hasn't been covered before, or for those that don't know, you can actually make a mortise 28mm deep. So if you bore a few plunges side by side for eg. you can make a mortise 90mm wide 10mm thick and 28mm deep, meaning you make up your own loose tenon 90mm x 10mm x 56mm. There is also no reason why you cant repeat those cuts to make a tenon 90mm x 20mm x 56mm. All without blinking an eyelid.;)

It will cover most mortise's you will come across in furniture making, and in the event where you need a deeper mortise, like on a big heavy solid timber entrance door with a lot of racking forces, just make yourself a router jig. The time saved and the excellent dust extraction has to be experienced to be believed.

It can also be used for things other than plain mortise's. I just made a rebate in a big workbench 200mm x 12mm x 15mm to allow for a vice jaw that protrudes into the top. Normally I would have to flip the big heavy top over and pull out the router (which I have no dust extraction for) and make a mess of MDF dust.:eek:

Using the domino was literally an effort-less 2 minute dust-free operation.:cool:

[Pete Brown]

Almost all joints in household and commercial pieces will be covered by using one or more standard dominos.
The Domino can be used to quickly create the opening for any size or depth mortice, for shop-made floating tenons. With a combination of multiple plunges horizontally and vertically, repeatable 25mm deep mortices can be formed in a piece, and then the depth increased by drilling/chopping by hand. IMHO these would only be needed on very large members, or heavy glassed external doors.

A router morticing jig would do this just as easily, but with more fiddly set up and marking out.

A properly constructed joint, using two 10x50 dominos, easily supported my 200lb+ jumping on it (in shear) with no glue. The resistance to distortion of joints lies in the tight tolerances. If a joint cannot begin to move, it will resist failure as the stresses are transferred to the parent timber.

I agree, but the question was about scaling the technology up to a full-size slot mortiser - something I do not believe is possible without getting into unreasonably long boring bits to reduce the curviture.

Pete

[Greg Peterson]

I can hardly justify the expenses associated with simply starting up a wood working hobbyist shop.

That said, Festool may well be out of my budget, but there are folks out there where time is money and Festool seems to be aimed primarily at that market.

There are surely avid tool collectors that have the resources that allow them to collect and use Festool for non-production based purposes. More power to 'em.

If you afford Festool, you don't have to justify it. Me, I'd be in a world of hurt if I brought anything that had Festool written on it.

[Robert Mayer]

I ended up getting the dowelmax instead. I was about to start coming up with some cash to get the domino, but wouldnt be able to afford to get any lumber for awhile! The dowelmax seems pretty flexible for most joints and isnt much slower.

[Jim Becker]

Me, I'd be in a world of hurt if I brought anything that had Festool written on it.

Only if you got caught in the process... :D :D :D Haven't you heard the old "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission" line??? ;)

But seriously, even folks who don't have tools like this in their budget should take the time if given the opportunity to check them out, if only to know that there are some companies still around who put quality first. IMHO, of course.

[Vijay Kumar]

Ok Ok I am convinced that the Domino is great for indoor furniture. How about outdoor furniture made with lumber such as IPE, teak etc. Will these dominoes withstand being soaked in the rain or baked in the sun or frozen. Exterior glue will be used, but the dominoes themselves?

Vijay

[Bob Marino]

Ok Ok I am convinced that the Domino is great for indoor furniture. How about outdoor furniture made with lumber such as IPE, teak etc. Will these dominoes withstand being soaked in the rain or baked in the sun or frozen. Exterior glue will be used, but the dominoes themselves?

Vijay

My understanding is that there will be mahoggany tenons available at some future point.

Bob

[Mark Carlson]

Only if you got caught in the process... :D :D :D Haven't you heard the old "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission" line??? ;)

Most people are going to notice a new big piece of cast iron sitting in the shop.
The nice thing about the domino is that is looks like the biscuit joiner you probably already own. I'm pretty sure this was a design requirement.
I'm not saying anything unless directly asked.

~mark

[Al Willits]

You guys didn't have them fancy DC systems, ya could sneak it in, sprinkle a little sawdust on it and say its been here for months, just haven't used it much till now.:)

Jim I agree, the stuff I've looked at was top notch and if I didn't have to eat or keep Beasty in caldrons, I'd sure think of buying some of them.
As much as I like my EZ system, I had a chance to play on Festools version, and have to admit, sure be nice to have that set up...:)

Al...er...honey? We have any first born we can sell????

[Per Swenson]

Off topic note....

All young men who are planning marriage in the future....

Right from jump street, keep your own money.

Think that's hard, well, she does it.

Why do you think my 82 year old Pops still works? :cool:

Per

[Ted Miller]

Like my wife says, "whats mine is mine and whats yours is mine"...

[Gary Keedwell]

Like my wife says, "whats mine is mine and whats yours is mine"...:confused:

Hey, that's what my wife says. They must belong to the same club.
Gary K.:rolleyes:

[Greg Cole]

I have & am seriously considering one.... quarterly bonus hits the paycheck the end of the month with more than enough for the "average domino order" as put out there by "Uncle Bob".
I am now sitting on the Festool fence.... I have busted my butt learning to hand chop mortises. I learned the good old fashioned way, bought a set of pig-stickers and bang away with a mallet. I am not in a big hurry and don't chop 50 mortises a day, BUT to be able to do one in what, 20 seconds.... sure is a TEASE.
I slipped on a Neander Slope since wading in the creek.... not sure I can (ok I can, but neither slope is cheap!) handle slipping on 2 slopes simultaneously..... LOML could honestly care less what I spend my money on.... I choose to brown bag lunch and have driven the same truck for almost a decade (but I seem to get attached to vehicles).
We all have our individuals amounts of disposable income, not sure why that becomes such an issue to some....
One thing about FESTOOL... the posts do make for amusing reads!

[Bob Marino]

I have & am seriously considering one.... quarterly bonus hits the paycheck the end of the month with more than enough for the "average domino order" as put out there by "Uncle Bob".
I am now sitting on the Festool fence.... I have busted my butt learning to hand chop mortises. I learned the good old fashioned way, bought a set of pig-stickers and bang away with a mallet. I am not in a big hurry and don't chop 50 mortises a day, BUT to be able to do one in what, 20 seconds.... sure is a TEASE.


Greg,

Why not hone that hand mortising on a project first?

Bob

[Marc Prudhomme]

This may be a silly question but are any of the American tool companies working on their version of the domino???

[Gary Keedwell]

This may be a silly question but are any of the American tool companies working on their version of the domino???

I think most companies that have an R&D department have their tinkerers and mavericks who will dabble either for the company or at his own residence. One would have to be naive to think otherwise.
Besides, it is not "rocket science" we are talking about, here. All it is, is an end mill (router bit) that spins and goes up and down on one axis.
More then likely, it will be a wait and see kind of thing. If it goes over big, I'm sure they'll start manufacturing them in Taiwan or China. After all, the original biscut joiner was designed for the Pro's who use it every day. The average homeowner-hobbyist doesn't need a domino quality tool because of the infrequent use it will get.
Only people who sell their work (mostly) can afford to do enough mortises and use enough wood $$$ to justify getting the more expensive domino version.How many woodworkers do you know that has the expensive Italian biscut joiner rather then the PC or de walt?
Either way, with all the eager testimonials spouting it's virtues, I'm sure the domino is a fine tool.
Gary K.:)

[Per Swenson]

Gary,

Are you familiar with the work of Gary Katz?

Finish Carpenter and author? Out of all the pre release reviews

Gary sums it up best, I do not believe this review was written

with the hobbyist in mind
Clicky here,.... . http://www.garymkatz.com/ToolReviews/festool_domino.htm


Per

[Jim Becker]

Only people who sell their work (mostly) can afford to do enough mortises and use enough wood $$$ to justify getting the more expensive domino version.


It's good that the word, "mostly" is in that statement because although the Domino is of obvious interest to pros, each person's "justification" is their own. We all buy things where the justification is merely "I want it"... ;) It may only be a candy bar, but we wanted it even though it may have been the last 89 cents in our pockets. Humans are like that!

[Pete Brown]

Besides, it is not "rocket science" we are talking about, here. All it is, is an end mill (router bit) that spins and goes up and down on one axis.
More then likely, it will be a wait and see kind of thing. If it goes over big, I'm sure they'll start manufacturing them in Taiwan or China. After all, the original biscut joiner was designed for the Pro's who use it every day. The average homeowner-hobbyist doesn't need a domino quality tool because of the infrequent use it will get.


That will be interesting to see. You did forget one axis: the oscillating motion. Getting that to happen smoothly and without runout or play (which would result in an over-thickness mortise) is where the precision comes in. Many of the usual tool manufacturers can't make a drill that will produce the right size hole (due to chuck runout), so this would be a real challenge to them. It may happen anyway :)

Pete

[Pete Brown]

It's good that the word, "mostly" is in that statement because although the Domino is of obvious interest to pros, each person's "justification" is their own. We all buy things where the justification is merely "I want it"... ;) It may only be a candy bar, but we wanted it even though it may have been the last 89 cents in our pockets. Humans are like that!

And for some or many of us, there's a time=money component to the equation. It may not be directly woodworking time=money as in the "sell your work" bit, but rather day job time=money so hobby time=minimal :)

I suspect you and I are in the same industry. I get more off time than many people due to my flexible schedule, but I go for pretty long stretches where I do little but work.

Pete

[Tim Martin]

:D :D just teasing........few more days until Christmas in April:p

[Gary Keedwell]

It's good that the word, "mostly" is in that statement because although the Domino is of obvious interest to pros, each person's "justification" is their own. We all buy things where the justification is merely "I want it"... ;) It may only be a candy bar, but we wanted it even though it may have been the last 89 cents in our pockets. Humans are like that! Hey Jim...:) That's why I included the "mostly " Don't forget that I was one of your most ardent defenders in your thread when you bought your last toy, err I mean tool. What one does with his disposable income is his own business. I was only referring to the "Average Joe" out there across the land, who is on a tight budget.
There are people out there that are saving their money for a $900 table saw for crying out loud. It is all relative....you know that:o My neighbor has a $70,000 car and thinks I'm nuts for buying expensive tools. He shakes his head and says I can get my tools alot cheaper. Maybe I'm a little slow and he is pulling my leg?:rolleyes:
Anyways, I was only talking in general, and I don't begrudge anybody on how he spends his money.
Gary K.

"Joe Six-pack" is a synonym used extensively in many respected publications to mean the average person and is not REFERRING to any particular person. Thank-you. ( Political correction not withstanding)

[Dennis O'Leary]

I am now sitting on the Festool fence.... I have busted my butt learning to hand chop mortises. .....One thing about FESTOOL... the posts do make for amusing reads!

You're right there Greg - it certainly fires up a debate. My point of view is somewhat practical. My shed time is very limited, with young children etc. I like using handtools, but not to the extent of other ww'rs. I have enough in the shop to hand dimension, dress, and joint timber - but I prefer to burn electrons for this slog work, just as I prefer to take the car to work, not the horse. i can take the
I have a 30yr old VW bus that I love driving in the weekend. Faced with the choice of taking this or the 3yr old Highlander on on a long trip with the family , in the rain and dark, is a no brainer.

One can hand-cut dovetails, or use a jig. M&T with TS jig and router, slot morticer and floating tenons, form with handtools or now (soon for you lot), use the Domino. I think that it is going to enable me to double my output, easily.

You choose. Why everyone goes into hand-wringing consternation about what other folk choose to do is beyond me.

[Dan Clark]

I have a lot of Festools. Overall, I think the design is excellent, the quality top notch, and the "systemness" the best available. I love the quality feel of them in my hands. But...

I buy them because my time is both valuable and limited. On a daily basis, I try to balance my work (I'm a contract software developer), my home projects (and there are many), my free time (hah!), my energy, and my money. Festools give me the best bang for the buck - the best balance.

People buy their first Festool for many reasons. I believe they buy the second and succeeding Festool because every time you pick them up, they "talk" to you. My Festools solve my problems, they tell me how good they are, and they tell that I made the right decision.

Now compare that to a lot of other tools which are "good deals". With many of them, they tell me I made a mistake and tell me that I was schmuck for wasting the money.

IMO, Festools are worth every penny.

Regards,

Dan.

[Gary Keedwell]

Are they really that expensive? I saw/used one today and it was really impressive but where does the pricing come from? The device is simply way overpriced for what it is. I guess the laws of supply and demand are in full effect here as the owner of the store told me he had sold 24 of the 30 coming in.

It is a true time saver but even the nices CMS is only $600 ish. Nutty.

I wonder what people are using them for. I would probably buy one for business (builder/trim carpenter) but it would have to be for some special job that I have not yet encountered. Pocket screws and biscuits (although I never biscuit except for miters on casings) still have uses, especially in light of the price to change.

Seems like a simple machine that would bore a number of dowel holes next to eachother would be as strong and fast and probably have more glue surface area than the festool tenon. I think the tool I am describing is already out there.

Tell me what you are planning, festool junkies?

(BTW I have ts55 and want more festool tools but this is really crazy)
I agree Ben, it does get crazy if you get all caught up in the frenzy. I have just one Festool, too. I have one of their cordless drills because it is something I use every day and I like that it runs "true" and I like the chucks.
As a hobbyist , I can only justify buying the tools I think I'll get some use out of. To me it is a balancing act. I'll spend the money on a great tool if I think it will benefit me....but if it is something that I think I'll only use occasionally, I'll go the cheap route. But like I said to Jim, it's all relative because we are all different and we all are on different income levels.
Whatever makes someone happy. In my fantasy world, I'd be surrounded with the best tools money could buy. In my real world, I'm saving money for my LOML's big 60th birthday this summer.:o
Gary K.

[Dennis O'Leary]

The intrinsic pleasure of using a good quality tool is not to be ignored. This goes for any tool. I know that you can buy a cheesy socket set for $30, but using my (American!) SK stuff which costs maybe 5 or more times that takes the pain away of replacing a waterpump or head gasket, and won't let me down. If it breaks, I get a new one, no questions. And as the late Jim Muir said, when you bust a knuckle or accidentally strip a thread, 'just feel your tools' to calm down a bit. ometimes I get the festools out, and do just that. No point in that if they're cheap'n'nasty ones.

[Jason Quick]

Only people who sell their work (mostly) can afford to do enough mortises and use enough wood $$$ to justify getting the more expensive domino version.


I dunno... I could see a serious hobbyist, or a hobbyist without a lot of time to kill making joints, having an interest in a Domino.

As I am a total cheapazz, I myself will probably stick with Beadlock. :D

Jason

[Rich Person]

As one the hobbiests with a lot I would like to do in a little time, I ordered one right away. It will let me get a lot more done in the little time I have.

After watching David Marks a lot, I really saw the value of loose tenon joinery. The main problem was that he uses the Multi-router for his work. A Multi-router is up in the $2k-$3k range--way out of my budget (and we won't even talk about the lack of DC), but I liked the idea. Now, I see the Domino as a cost effective version of the Multi-router, with much better dust control--at least for mortises.

Space is also a premium in my shop so having a tool that I can put away in a small box is much better than having a dedicated space for a Multi-router or a dedicated mortiser.

See? I saved a couple thousand dollars by not buying a Multi-router.

[Al Willits]

""""""""
You choose. Why everyone goes into hand-wringing consternation about what other folk choose to do is beyond me.
"""""""""

I don't see that, imho what I see is the wonderful world of miscomminication.

ex..
I just bought a widget, cost 56k and it was a steal.

Why did you buy a widget?

Why shouldn't he buy a widget, ain't your money.

He buys a widget to get the cream of the crop, and to do that you have to spend money.

I don't have 56k can I buy a cheaper widget?

Not if you want widget quaility.

My cheaper didget works just well as a widget.

Not sure why you think you have the right to question his widget.

No no..I wanna know why he bought a widget, cause I have no idea what a widget does....


Maybe?
Al

[Rich Person]

""""""""
You choose. Why everyone goes into hand-wringing consternation about what other folk choose to do is beyond me.
"""""""""

I don't see that, imho what I see is the wonderful world of miscomminication.

ex..
I just bought a widget, cost 56k and it was a steal.

Why did you buy a widget?

Why shouldn't he buy a widget, ain't your money.

He buys a widget to get the cream of the crop, and to do that you have to spend money.

I don't have 56k can I buy a cheaper widget?

Not if you want widget quaility.

My cheaper didget works just well as a widget.

Not sure why you think you have the right to question his widget.

No no..I wanna know why he bought a widget, cause I have no idea what a widget does....


Maybe?
Al

Wait a minute. When is Festool releasing the Widget? I want one. Gotta go get Bob on the phone.

[Gary Keedwell]

Wait a minute. When is Festool releasing the Widget? I want one. Gotta go get Bob on the phone.
I wonder how much Festool's widget costs?:confused:
I don't want to be left out.:(

Gary K.

[Paul Canaris]

There is a reason that biscuit joiners were invented about 20 years before they suddenly "burst" onto the market in the mid 80's. That was the 17 year patent that Lamello held.

----


Art, I am not aware of what Festools patent rights are based on.

However, when I first saw the Domino, the pricipal of operation looked a lot like an oscilating mortiser which has been around for years, although more portable.

Perhaps other manufacturers may follow sooner than we think with functional variations.

[Greg Cole]

Bob,
I have done a few projects with hand chopped mortises. Some blind, some through... I am pretty comfortable with this skill. My last one was a face frame for a jewlery case (wall mount) for LOML, the joints are perfectly snug, square and very well aligned. I was testing myself making a face frame as it is difficult to perfectly align stock of the same thickness, TEST PASSED :D. The hand cut box joints didn't pass QA though (my "QA guy" ala me, can be a SOB).
I am an odd duck about my WW'ing I guess. I like to learn the old fashioned way first if I can. The latest greatest tool that can do a tried & true method means more if you've done it the same way as it's been done for centuries. Like with powered planers... if you learn to hand plane (and read grain) first, using a tailed planer is not a learning curve just a differnt way of doing.
Guess if you boil it down, I like technology but refuse to be totally hand-cuffed to it. I can all but choose to do an all Neader project or save some time and not sacrifice quality etc....
Man, I have to learn to keep it short, eh?

[Gary Keedwell]

Bob,
I have done a few projects with hand chopped mortises. Some blind, some through... I am pretty comfortable with this skill. My last one was a face frame for a jewlery case (wall mount) for LOML, the joints are perfectly snug, square and very well aligned. I was testing myself making a face frame as it is difficult to perfectly align stock of the same thickness, TEST PASSED :D. The hand cut box joints didn't pass QA though (my "QA guy" ala me, can be a SOB).
I am an odd duck about my WW'ing I guess. I like to learn the old fashioned way first if I can. The latest greatest tool that can do a tried & true method means more if you've done it the same way as it's been done for centuries. Like with powered planers... if you learn to hand plane (and read grain) first, using a tailed planer is not a learning curve just a differnt way of doing.
Guess if you boil it down, I like technology but refuse to be totally hand-cuffed to it. I can all but choose to do an all Neader project or save some time and not sacrifice quality etc....
Man, I have to learn to keep it short, eh?
I know what you mean. As a machinist in my other life, I can tell you truthfully, the best CNC guys are the ones that learned the trade manually.
Gary K.;)

[Ben Grunow]

Along the wife lines (as mentioned by Per and friends above)... My father says

"I'm the boss.............................................. right honey?"


At least we all agree it is expensive. Inflation is bad but $1000 is still a lot o dough.

Ben

P.S. This issue is almost like a Sawstop post although slightly less heated, probably because it is about $1000 instead of $4000?

[Al Willits]

Wait till the widget comes out and watch the fur fly....:D

Al

[Dennis O'Leary]

""""""""
You choose. Why everyone goes into hand-wringing consternation about what other folk choose to do is beyond me.
"""""""""

I don't see that, imho what I see is the wonderful world of miscomminication.

ex..
I just bought a widget, cost 56k and it was a steal.

Why did you buy a widget?

Why shouldn't he buy a widget, ain't your money.

He buys a widget to get the cream of the crop, and to do that you have to spend money.

I don't have 56k can I buy a cheaper widget?

Not if you want widget quaility.

My cheaper didget works just well as a widget.

Not sure why you think you have the right to question his widget.

No no..I wanna know why he bought a widget, cause I have no idea what a widget does....


Maybe?
Al

This may be applicable, but only when there is a cheaper didget. Fact is, Herr Dr. Festool holds all the aces on this here widget.

[Gary Keedwell]

............. :>]


:rolleyes: Gary K.