YASL (shop layout recommendations)

[Mark Visconti]

I've been working with what I have for a little over a year and am finally dedicating some space in the basement for a shop and purchasing some new tools. The shop is in a basement with outside access and has a 33' x 16' x 8' main area and another section with a 16' x 10' room. There is a space adjacent to the main area, but I won't be able to set up permanent tools in that area. DC will be confined to the main 33' x 16' area. I've got 400 amp service, so power shouldn't be an issue although wiring it up and lighting it properly will be some work and money.

Primary use will be small to mid-size furniture - bookshelves, tables, cabinets, etc.

Here's layout options A and B
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So far, I've sketched-up based on the space and work requirements for the larger tools - a table saw and a 16" j/p with a mortiser table. I also have a larger dedicated router table. I am using Incra fences so those suck up additional space as well. All three tools will be on mobile bases, but I'm trying to set it up so that I will only need to move the router table (except in rare cases). I have a TS55 for sheet goods and sander is a Festool with a CT22, so the small area will be using the CT22 for DC. Bandsaw will be via a jigsaw for some time. I plan to get a cyclone for the main area as well.

I see the main shop area being used to process wood and do any joinery/edging/etc and the smaller 16' x 10' area for assembly and finishing. In one configuration, the outfeed table from the saw could be used for assembly as well, but it's too close to the furnace for some finishing. The back and forth between the main and small areas is likely to be inconvenient, but I will have to make do. My lumber storage area is poorly located about as far away from the entry door as possible and sheet goods will either be near the lumber (see cheesy cart next to furnace) or outside the smaller area. I don't show cabinetry for tool storage, but plan to place them around the perimeter where space is available (bottom right in the images).

I have two layouts sketched up and prefer layout B. Layout A was my initial layout and focused on being able to use a door way for longer rips, but layout B seems just as capable and the outfeed table space is much better. There's some HVAC ducts that I don't show in the top down view, but it doesn't appear it will cause problems, although it might affect the cyclone position. Most everything is modelled relatively closely to scale, although I had to fudge a bit on the cyclone.
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Thanks,
Mark

[Eric Wong]

I love looking at other people's Sketchups, and other people's shops.... two for the price of one in this post!

I'm a little confused by the drawings as to where the actual door is located, and I don't see a workbench or tool storage. To my mind, the most efficient layout will be the best triangle (similar to the kitchen triangle) of hand tool storage, bench, and major power tool that you use the most.

It might be more clear to me if you attach the actual Sketchup file.

[Andrew Williams]

no workbench?

I used to have my TS in a spot where i had roughly 7' of infeed space and it was a big drag. I think 10' is better (and you do have that nice long run below the furnace on the schematics)

[Mark Visconti]

I guess I should have put a workbench in since it needs to be somewhere. Stuck in a yet to be built tool cabinet as well.

I labeled the doorways and rearranged to get maximum length through the TS. J/P seems a little limited and spacing is tighter. Storage is still not shown. The 40" doorway is no longer a doorway since the TS obstructs it.
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My .skp file is close to 4MBs... I would think that would exceed legal file sizes.

Thanks for the input,
Mark

[Andrew Williams]

I think that will work better. Not sure if you have any other options on lumber storage, but I wonder what the effect would be as far as boards twisting and bowing and cupping from the heat of the furnace...

[Art Mulder]

Mark, just how old is that furnace? It seems to occupy a rather huge footprint.

I just had a new furnace put in to replace a 20-25yr old unit, and the new one is probably 60% of the size of the old one. My furnance and air return occupies a space 30"x40". In contrast, your furnace seems to occupy a 5'x7' footprint. :eek:.

Actually, looking again at the diagram, I'm even more confused... It looks like your furnace has two cold air returns going into it. This gives it that U-Shaped layout that kills your floor space. Is this actually two furnances giving zoned heating? Can't think why else you'd have that.

I like to think outside the box, and with your basement I'd be looking at that furnace and wondering what could be done to improve the space available to the shop. Could you get some tin-bashers in to move some ductwork to reduce the floor space? What about the furnace itself? Sure, furnaces are expensive, but replacing a furnace with a more space efficient unit would probably be cheaper than any major renovation.

Finally... the last layout looks pretty good. Given any thought to putting your TS on the angle to give you longer rip space? If it is mobile you could do so.

You're the second person I've bumped into (on a forum) in the past few weeks who has incra fences on their TS which really restricts saw placement. They may be nice fences, but to me the negatives seem to outweigh the advantages.

best,
...art

[Mark Visconti]

The furnaces are modelled to scale as are the ducts. The cold air returns have a sweeping 90 degree turn that makes them jut out an additional 2+ feet from the back of the furnace. There is a hidden cold air return in the floor joists that feeds into the ductwork above the cold air return between the two furnaces. The furnaces are only 2.5 years old. (There's a heat pump on the third floor as well.).

Good point about the lumber storage being near the furnace. I will move it to outside the doorway by the TS. I already have some shelving there although it will be limited to about 10'.

I will reserve judgement on the Incra until another time. I like it on my router.

Thanks, Mark (formatting to be edited later)

[Eric Wong]

Your placement of the bench seems good, but if you can rotate the TS 180 degrees you might be happier, or angle it as Art suggested. I like to have my TS and my workbench near each other, so I can use both spaces at once, or cut on the TS and stack on the workbench, etc. I think you'll find it annoying if you have to walk all the way around the TS to get to your bench.

[Mark Visconti]

Rotating the TS 180 degrees means moving it further out in the room for cross cuts which crowds the j/p.

This looks crowded when standing at the TS as well as when using the jointer on the j/p.

Looking back at the options, I think Art has a good idea. If I can decrease the footprint of the cold air return ducting that comes down from ceiling height, I could gain a nice outfeed area. The current distance from wall to ducting is 26" which is enough for a 16" board (all that the j/p supports), but it could be a little awkward sliding long boards in and out of the space between the furnace and wall.

Pic attached with the config - note that lumber storage moved outside the room. Plywood is currently beside the furnace, but it can move to the space off the 16' x 10' finishing room.
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Mark

[Eric Wong]

I like this arrangement the best, you've got good access to everything without having to walk around things too much. I feel like telling you how to arrange your shop is like my wife telling me how to arrange the furniture, so take my advice with a grain of salt. Of course, my wife does know more than me about arranging furniture.:D

[Ken Belisle]

Mark,

I don't believe that you have said what type of furnace that is. Is there any type of flame inside, which I personally think that would present a dangerous situation. Also, even with good dust collection, having the furnace in the same area as your shop, especially that close to your table saw which generally has the worse dust collection of most major tools, you will be changing the filter very frequently and even with the best furnace filters out there, I'd be willing to bet you will be blowing fine dust into the house.

I have a heat pump in my basement, so the fear factor wasn't there, but until I walled off my shop, my wife constantly complained about the dust, even with a good D/C and a filter which I ran constantly.

Just something else to think about.............

Ken

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Ken already addressed what i was thinking. If I were you, I'd be looking for a way to enclose the furnace. Of course you'll want to make sure you follow the manufacturer's specifications for clearance.

My last shop was in my basement and the dust definitely made its way through the house when the heater was running. You'll want to minimize that.

Edit: Just realized that was my 500th post. 'Bout time I started providing some useful information.

[Mark Visconti]

You're raining on my parade. If I enclose the _gas_ furnaces (see other recent thread), I'm going to lose another chunk of already limited space. I had hoped with a cyclone and aircleaner (or two if it would remove the need to wall up the furnace), that the dust problem would be limited. --Mark

[Ken Belisle]

I might just be my paranoia or huge fear of fire, but there is no way I would have a gas fired furnace in my shop. Dust in the house would be the least of my worries..........

But, I'm no expert in air-borne dust and the odds of a fire, but I'm sure (at least hoping) someone with knowledge in that area will chime in here and present the facts. I might just be overly cautious, but that's my opinion.

[Michael Lutz]

How much of a problem it is would depend upon the type of gas fired furnace it is? I replaced a 25 year old furnace a couple years ago with an indirect fired heater. The air for combustion comes from outside and the exhaust is expelled outside. Both pipes are PVC, which is very common on newer high efficiency furnaces. The combustion is sealed from the air coming from the cold air return, so the only concern would be the quantity of dust you would be sending through the filters on your furnace and then sending to the rest of the house.

Since the furnaces were recently replaced, they are probably high efficiency units with indirect heating. Mark would have to say for sure.

Thanks,

Mike

[Jim Becker]

Michael, you're correct...the 92% efficient furnaces with closed a cumbustion loop would be much safer in this situation. I still wouldn't use solvent-based finishes in the house, but would'nt worry much about dust outside of migration to the living areas via circulation. For that reason, I'd still want the furnace, etc., in its own room "just for grins".

[Mark Visconti]

Well, I found the furnace model online (92.4% efficient), but no real documentation and I think the HVAC company took the manuals with them (or at least I can't find them). I will have to make a decision about the pros and cons of walling in the furnace area to protect them from the dust. I do have a "finishing room" that is two rooms over from the area that I've shown, so I won't need to use anything explosive near the furnace. I have a garage that I have utilized in the past for HVLP spraying. I would probably use it for anything too stinky.

I don't mind being given suggestions as to how to layout the space. Planning is just a starting point for possible positions. Once the tools arrive and they're set up things may/will change.

Without this input, I would never have considered sacrificing the smaller doorway. Doing so, opened up quite a few options for placement. The point about the workbench/tool cabinet was also a good one. I think I could get away with a small table beside/near the infeed side of the saw for tools and keep the workbench and tool cabinet on the opposite of the saw, using the outfeed table for finished cuts. It would also allow me to use the outfeed table and the workbench as a larger work area with easy access to tools.

Top View http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w285/gmarkvis/myshop-rev11a.jpg
3D View http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w285/gmarkvis/myshop-rev11a-3d.jpg
HVAC http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w285/gmarkvis/myshop-rev11-ducting.jpg

I think I'm going to be hurting for in-room storage with this layout, but I can utilize underneath the outfeed table and the workbench. There's an empty space in front of the cyclone that might get a table with some cabinets under it. The wall across from the workbench could also take some cabinets as well as a top that aligns with the jointer/planer. The far left wall next to the plywood storage and in the U behind the furnace if I get really desperate for tool storage :D

Mark

[Michael Lutz]

At 92% efficiency, you should have a completely sealed combustion. You can verify by checking if the exhaust from the furnace leave through PVC or metal ductwork? If it is PVC, it is sealed.

Are you going to do assembly in this room? If so, clamps could be attached to one of the walls close to where the assembly will take place. Empty wall space will be filled over time with jigs and other things that you might not even think you need at this point in time.

Mike

[Mark Visconti]

Yep. Two PVCs per furnace exit the house (not shown in sketchup yet). So, does closed combustion mean the furnaces aren't going to be sucking in wood dust directly from the adjacent area?

The bottom right area looks like it will work for assembly. I have a 16' x 10' room as well (you can see the corner of it in the HVAC link) where I could also use for assembly depending on how crowded the main shop gets.

The non-exterior walls are brick with mortar (100+ years old). I can attach peg board to them, but I may just drop 2x4's down from the ceiling joists (2x10"s every 12" I believe) along the walls and attach any wall cabinets or tool storage to the 2x4s. The exterior walls are stone with a 3/4" skimcoat as well, so I may try the same 2x4 trick for the exterior walls as well.

Mark

[Michael Lutz]

Closed combustion means that you won't be sucking in wood dust into the combustion chamber to burn up in the flame. Cold air return ductwork is usually not very well sealed, so you could have a fair amount of leakage of dust into the duct, just due to the fact it is not tightly sealed. A bigger problem would be the location of your cold air return registers. If you don't have a register in the shop or the basement, you will still pull in some dust due to leakage.

Mike