Why Festool?

[Ron Hedrick]

I am new here and very much a novice where it concerns woodworking. I'll ask a really stupid question. I see the posts about Festool products. What I would like to know is what makes Festool Products so desireable.

And yes I'm prepared to be flamed for asking the question.

[Ted Miller]

Ron, I myself was thinking about the Festool products for quite sometime. Last weekend I went to work on a side job with a friend of mine who does cabinets and he wanted me to build all the shelving in this finished garage some 40' long ceiling to floor. Simple open shelving 3/4" melamine no doors on anything just edgeband. He told me he had a surprise for me when I got there. Well as I drove up to his clients small home at 6800 sq. ft. he had two stacks of these green and white rolling thingys. Well it was all Festool stuff so after about an hour figuring out what he had and how they work I got to work. Man the saw and guides were awesome. I figured I needed about 4 days to finish the shelving but got it all done in 2 days. I was very impressed by how the tools worked and just how simple they were to use. He let me bring home the router and sanders and I used them in my shop this weekend on some cabinets. So yesterday I took the plunge and put in a order with Bob marino. Yes I am a toolaholic and I need help...

[Al Willits]

Think Snap On and you have it, other tools will do the job as well, but are probably not quite as well made, and Festools do seem to have a bit more engineering to them, the Festool mob will tell you life is over with out Festool.:D
I'm not so sure, but I do like some of them, but rather not spend the money, as I don't do this as a business and I do not have unlimited funds.

Nice if they fit your budget, just like Snap On....:)

Al....who ducking the incoming......:eek:

[Jim Becker]

No flaming necessary. Festool produces high quality tools with high level features. They are not for everyone. But for the most part, folks who purchase swear by them rather than at them...

[Don Bullock]

No flaming necessary. Festool produces high quality tools with high level features. They are not for everyone. But for the most part, folks who purchase swear by them rather than at them...

Great quote Jim. I'll have to use that for the LOML when I get to the point when I need to buy my first Festool product (that won't be for a while because this year she's letting me buy a SawStop with an Incra fence).

Ron, I'd suggest that you search through the fourm for comments on Festool. If what people say about them seems to speak to your needs, and you can afford the high price (yes, it will be high) then they are for you. From what I've read they are excellent. Like Jim states, however, they are not for everyone, just like Harbor Freight (the other end of the spcetrum perhaps) is not for everyone. I've found that the posts here can be very valuable when it comes to deciding about tools. Here I only hear from people who are actually using tools to make sawdust. It's amazing the amount of experience that one can tap into here.

[Bob Childress]

Ron,

That is not a stupid question. Far from it. Everyone's reply so far has been on the money, IMHO. Think about it this way:

Festool is targeting the trades, not the DIY market. All the whiz bang engineering, superior dust collection, accuracy and portability is so that trades can work on a job site and produce excellent results. For them, it is a simple cost/benefit analysis and if the types of jobs they do justify the expense (or even almost require it), then that's what they buy.

For the hobbiest, it's a different equation, I think. The price alone mitigates against mass marketing. They have no huge advertising budgets in the U.S. It's mostly word-of-mouth, places like this one, and a few dealers (although that seems to be expanding). But if, like Ted, you ever get your hands on any of the Festools, you will be sorely tempted to take the plunge. They just feel "right." But they are not, indeed, for everyone and you can produce mighty nice projects without a single one. :)

On the other hand, I keep looking out the window to see if my Domino is here yet. :rolleyes: :D :D

[Jason White]

Not a dumb question.

If you've done a lot of woodworking without Festool machines in the past, you will appreciate how many operations are faster, easier, safer and cleaner with Festool tools.

I suggest you spend some time at your local Woodcraft store and play with the machines a bit before buying anything. Also watch the "test drive" video at www.festoolusa.com.

Can you make nice furniture without Festools? Absolutely! But I consider my Festool purchases as serious upgrades to machines I already own (except the plunge cut saw, which is in a class of its own).

JW


I am new here and very much a novice where it concerns woodworking. I'll ask a really stupid question. I see the posts about Festool products. What I would like to know is what makes Festool Products so desireable.

And yes I'm prepared to be flamed for asking the question.

[Dan Lyke]

Disclaimer: my sweety and I own a bunch of Festool products.

If you want to see people raving about the features of Festool, you might also try dropping over to the Festool Owners Group. The key selling point for us was dust collection, but like all products they come with a set of trade-offs, and you have to figure out which trade-offs are important to you; in Festool's case the primary trade-off seems to me to be price.

But I'd also point anyone interested in Festool to look at various other options, including the EZ Smart rail system, because everyone has a different set of features and trade-offs that make something the "best" for their needs. For instance, I love my Festool jigsaw, but I sometimes end up removing the dust collection and anti-tear-up guards so that I can better see the line I'm following. Different strokes etc.

[Bob Reda]

Festol is definetley for the trades. I was working in a church on a time schedule. And I was working on the main alter when the heavens opened up for three days of rain. If it wasn't for the festool dust collection system with their tools I would never have completed it before services on Sat. I actually cut in the main Santuary with very little dust.

Bob

[Stan Tillinghast]

I am a brand-new Festool owner--just the 55 saw for now.
I can tell you the things that attracted me after first hearing 'Festool' here and then reading more on the web:
1. Safety - the plunging blade, and the guide rail which provides control
2. Accuracy - the guide rail provides more accuracy than one can achieve with just a straightedge or ordinary guide
3. Quality - always love great tools--it's almost the end product!
4. Cleanliness - I have a problem with allergies, so like to keep dust to a minimum. Seems like the Festools are great on this.
5. Noise - less important, but still--lower noise contributes to the feeling of control and safety.
6. Cool. :cool:

I'm hooked. Absolutely satisfied with my the saw; MFT is pending; can't wait for the router and dust collector.

[Wilbur Pan]

I don't have any Festool tools (yet), but I'll tell you the main reason why I would consider a Festool circular saw/router/sander over any of the other makers.

Dust collection.

None of the other manufacturers, as far as I can tell, does a better job with dust collection for these types of tools than Festool.

[Aside: I've noticed that on the power tool side of the woodworking spectrum, people often get flamed for advocating the purchase of a Festool product, but in the hand tool world, no one gets flamed for buying a Lie-Nielsen plane.]

[Pete Brown]

I have the Festool TS55 and extra rails, as well as their accessory pack and some clamps. I also have their MFT (Multi Function Table). I have the Domino and the large vac on order; they should ship in about two weeks. I'm really REALLY looking forward to getting both of those :D

I have been extremely impressed with the quality of the tools. Everything feels solid and well-made. In addition, everything works together as a system. There are lots of manufacturers that can make one or two excellent tools, and some duds. There aren't many that can produce a ton of successful products and then make them all work together in a system.

I agree with the other poster on the EZ-Smart system. Take a look at that as well if your needs are primarily within its capabilities.

On my Festool wish list:
- 8' guide rail (joining the two smaller rails and keeping them straight can be time-consuming as the ends of the rail are not quite square to the side)
- The medium-sized router (1400 eq)
- Router template system
- Sanders

Pete

[Pete Brown]

5. Noise - less important, but still--lower noise contributes to the feeling of control and safety.


Good point. The saw is so quiet, that I thought it was broken at first (you have to get used to the soft-start sound). My regular P&C circular saw, on the other hand, is probably the noisiest tool I own.

Pete

[Dave Falkenstein]

I am a hobbyist and semi-professional - i.e., i do work for clients and get paid for it on a part time basis. I discovered Festool about 4 years ago and have added to my collection since then. One of the key features of Festool is the "system" aspect of the tools. Several of the tools work seamlessly with the guide rail and multifunction table. Many of the tools interface with the dust extractor - yeah, I know, vacuum - for an excellent dust collection option. All of the tools are of the highest quality and are designed with tons of ingenuity and detail. Ignore the price and you could become an addict like lots of folks around here. Personally I think the price is justified, IMHO of course.

[Dan Lyke]

- Router template system


Pete, I originally built an adjustable rectangle template (http://www.flutterby.net/Poor_Man's_MFS), and then got an actual MFS, and the utility of such a jig just can't be overstated. I had to knock out a whole bunch of braces with identical square recesses recently, and while I could have done this with my homebuilt one, the fact that the the clamps and everything work so nicely with the actual MFS made this a fast easy process.

And, yeah, I didn't want to ramble too much on why I've got a whole bunch of Festool stuff, but quieter tools (you're never going to make a quiet router, but our workshop is our living room, and sound echoes even with good hearing protection), soft-start and great motor drive electronics, and the whole "system" attitude that pervades the design (ie: the way the through-table clamps fit recesses in the guide rails and the MFS and the side of the table too) makes things "just work".

Having said that, I did recently pick up a reconditioned Porter-Cable detail sander for $50 rather than spring for the Festool detail sander. My blood doesn't completely run green and dark dark blue just yet. But the difference between that sander and the Festool ones is very obvious when I switch between tools.

[Per Swenson]

Why Festool?

I was once one of the rednecks down at Clancy's, A place that

not only served as surrogate home but union hiring hall and

preinternet woodworker's forum. Tough guys all.

It was here on rainy days and late late nights we would gather

and scoff at yuppies, their cars and houses, and yes their tools.

Well, not necessarily their tools, but their unused collections.

You knew our type. Snide remarks such as Matchbox cars are cheaper

and nice pegboard display, did you go to art school?

By golly we could rip a board straight with nothing more then a chalk

line. Saw guide and ink line? Whaddaya some kind a pansy?

That's us. Well, that was me.

I haven't stepped foot in Clancy's in 10 years.

Thankfully my friends and competition still gather there and retain

the same mindset. While I smile all the way to the bank.

Festool is a integrated system that allows me to bring world class

shop work on the job site. Before it, life was a pain just to attempt

the same results. One trip to the job just for the contractors table saw,

and a low totem pole man to sweep all day. Those days are gone.

Festool's motto is faster, better and easier. That motto is devoid of

hype. It translates into English as "Saves me money".

That's why.

Per

[Gary Keedwell]

Ron,

That is not a stupid question. Far from it. Everyone's reply so far has been on the money, IMHO. Think about it this way:

Festool is targeting the trades, not the DIY market. All the whiz bang engineering, superior dust collection, accuracy and portability is so that trades can work on a job site and produce excellent results. For them, it is a simple cost/benefit analysis and if the types of jobs they do justify the expense (or even almost require it), then that's what they buy.

For the hobbiest, it's a different equation, I think. The price alone mitigates against mass marketing. They have no huge advertising budgets in the U.S. It's mostly word-of-mouth, places like this one, and a few dealers (although that seems to be expanding). But if, like Ted, you ever get your hands on any of the Festools, you will be sorely tempted to take the plunge. They just feel "right." But they are not, indeed, for everyone and you can produce mighty nice projects without a single one. :)

On the other hand, I keep looking out the window to see if my Domino is here yet. :rolleyes: :D :D

No huge advertising budget? Word-of-mouth? You gotta be kidding me, right? Check out the FULL page spreads in FWW, Woodworking Journal, and others. If they didn't spend money on advertising before, they're more then making up for it now!!! They are everywhere woodworking magazines are sold.
Gary K.

[Burt Waddell]

Gary,

Did you hear about the trip to Germany for Magazine editors and writers? As I recall, it was all expenses paid for the editor/writer and a person of his choice. I believe it was either 3 or 4 days in Germany.

Festool has received a lot of favorable press.

Burt

[Burt Waddell]

I agree with the other poster on the EZ-Smart system. Take a look at that as well if your needs are primarily within its capabilities.

Pete


EXPLAIN. Your statement seems to imply that Festool has capabilities exceed those of the EZ-Smart System. Educate me!

[Dave Avery]

Gary,

Did you hear about the trip to Germany for Magazine editors and writers? As I recall, it was all expenses paid for the editor/writer and a person of his choice. I believe it was either 3 or 4 days in Germany.

Festool has received a lot of favorable press.

Burt

Burt,

I'm reasonably sure that Per hasn't received any free trips to Germany...... and what does your comment have to do with the topic?

[Gary Keedwell]

Gary,

Did you hear about the trip to Germany for Magazine editors and writers? As I recall, it was all expenses paid for the editor/writer and a person of his choice. I believe it was either 3 or 4 days in Germany.

Festool has received a lot of favorable press.

Burt
I understand Burt....I was only exposing the myth that Festool doesn't advertise. Festool has taken full page glossy advertising in all the major magazines. I personally have nothing against Festool, on the contrary , I admire the company for staying private therefore it doesn't have to answer to the stock holders who always want instant gratification.
I have their cordless drill and innovative chucks and think they are marvelous. I also am contemplating on purchasing part of their sanding system. But please......word of mouth?
Yes, all good products benefit from word of mouth, but most good products know the benefits of advertising...even Festool.
Gary K.

[Burt Waddell]

Ron,

I've often pondered the same question.

My initial involvement was with the EZ Smart and I kept hearing so much hype about the Festool stuff that I decided to take a look at it. I thought the MFT looked pretty nice and the saw had to be great so I got them. I have never been more disappointed. The saw was powerless and the miter system for the MFT is just about the worst I have ever seen. The only way I could use the miter system was use a square to set it up with and then use the knob that attaches it to the rail to keep it in place.

Some of their tools are good. In general, I think Festool has done a fantastic job of marketing. Someway they have convienced a lot of people that the european system of woodworking is innovative and that Festool is the greatest thing going.

Another thing that bothers me is that you see posts like one in this thread that go on and on about how great Festool is and then the poster admits that he has only one of their tools.

More and more, we are see balance in some of the Festool posts. This is good.

My thought is evaluate each tool on an individual basis. Select the one that seems to meet your needs best.

Burt

[Per Swenson]

Dave,

Thank you.

And nope, never been to Germany and have never had press credentials.

Just a hard workin slob with a opinion and a computer.

But Burt,

Lets not let this thread devolve into marketing strategy's or the

critique of such. We all know where that will end up.

Per

[Burt Waddell]

Burt,

I'm reasonably sure that Per hasn't received any free trips to Germany...... and what does your comment have to do with the topic?

Dave,

I have no problem with what Per has to say. He has made his choice and is happy with it. You can't ask for more than that.

My comment was adding information to what Gary had stated. Both statements serve to correct the myth that Festool does not advertise.


Burt

[Burt Waddell]

Dave,

Thank you.

And nope, never been to Germany and have never had press credentials.

Just a hard workin slob with a opinion and a computer.

But Burt,

Lets not let this thread devolve into marketing strategy's or the

critique of such. We all know where that will end up.

Per

Per,

'Still trying to understand why Dave brought you into this.

Burt

[Dave Avery]

I am new here and very much a novice where it concerns woodworking. I'll ask a really stupid question. I see the posts about Festool products. What I would like to know is what makes Festool Products so desireable.

And yes I'm prepared to be flamed for asking the question.

Burt,

I won't belabor the point, but whether or not Festool advertises has nothing to do with Ron's question. Why do you, Burt, like Festool products?

Here's my answer...... and I'm a hobbiest, not a pro. They're the best quality name brand tool that I have tried, with perhaps the exception of the jig saw. That includes the plunge saw, OF1400 router, Rotex sander, and MFT (no Gary, I don't own just one Festool). One other very important thing - I LOVE using them. I actually LIKE sanding, for example.

Disclaimer...... I have received one (1) free tee shirt and one (1) free coffee mug, courtesy of the customer service obsessed dealer from whom I've made all my Festool purchases.

[robert micley]

i have used festool products for three years.for anyone interested in these tools i strongly recommend the circular saw guide rail and sander and vac.these are the tools which are heads and tails above the others.the jigsaw is good but frankly it doesnt have a dust blower and without this dust clogs your line of site.the router is excellent but i like the boschor dewalt because l like two equal handles for dovetailwork.attaching a dust collector is a great idea and works with your router but it requires alot of planning and pain to keep the hose out of way when doing circular work and going around material.on straight line work like dados the hose doesnt get in way as easy.cutting panels down to size is a breeze with the festool saw and guide rail.unfortunately if you want to straight edge one side of wood or plywood greater than 4 feet you have to combine two guide rails.i sprung for the 200 dollar festool long guide rail because you simply do not get a 100 percent accurate straight line combining two guide rails with the connectors.festool tools are expensive-i use the router and hole template system to make my cabinet shelve holes.it is an expensive system but i love it.in my cabinet work i constantly use ther guide rail and also my dowelmax which makes super accurate lined dowel holes.these dowels prevent any shifting when attaching my wood pieces together for gluing.i still use dados,pocket holes or biscuits but i love a few dowels to prevent the wood from moving when aligning while the glue is on.i am getting the domino which may mean retiring my lamello.i love my lamello compared to the dewalt or porter cable for two reasons-it is dead flat and there is zero shifting of lamello head during the pluinging action.good luck on your purchase.

[Doug Shepard]

... What I would like to know is what makes Festool Products so desireable.
...


They look and function just a little bit differently than other tools. This slows your stupid brother down when he stops over to borrow one of your tools without asking.

They look expensive. This slows your stupid brother down when he stops over to borrow one of your tools without asking.

They have snap together stackable containers. This slows your stupid brother down when he cant figure out how to separate out the one tool he wants to borrow without asking.

They're black and green. This wont stop your stupid brother, but it looks pretty cool.:D

[Gary Keedwell]

"What I would like to know is what makes Festool Products so desireable."
Dave..I beg to differ with your statement about advertising and what it has to do with original question.
Madison Avenue has known for many generations what advertising can do to make their products "desireable."
Many people are attracted to expensive products because they are told how great they are and you can "be the envy of your peers" etc.,etc.
I hear people say " wow, he drives a Lexus" and they have never actually driven it themselves, but it has been said so many times that a Lexus is great so they assume a Lexus is great.
DESIRE ...conjures up many images. I'm no head shrink, but if someone hears so much how great a product is ( word of mouth). After awhile they assume it is great, and want one, too.
Word of mouth also goes the other way. You don't hear too many people bragging ( gloating) or desiring a Sears product lately, do you?
Bottom line is....if people keep buying them (Festool) then they must me a good product. Repeat customers, speak volumes.
Gary K.

[robert micley]

i agree with you about the mft.it is a very poor system.the stops on it are sloppy.it is good for 90 degree cross cuts once you have it set but if you change it you have to square it up again.the straight edge has no rule or microstops.it could have been done a lot better.and it seems like a simple thing to do.and as i mentioned connecting two guide rails doesnt give you a super precise straight edge.with their routers i could never get comfortable with the handles for template or dovetail jig work.a knob on each side feels much better

[Ted Miller]

Doug, I will loan my tools to anyone that knows how to use them safely, then I go along at $45.00 an hour. Still wondering why no one whats to borrow anything...

[Jim Becker]

A REMINDER: The question was about Festool and what makes it desirable. It's not about other products. Keep things on-topic, please and forgo the rants. I will not let this thread devolve into a food fight...

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Dave Falkenstein]

...I thought the MFT looked pretty nice and the saw had to be great so I got them. I have never been more disappointed. The saw was powerless and the miter system for the MFT is just about the worst I have ever seen. The only way I could use the miter system was use a square to set it up with and then use the knob that attaches it to the rail to keep it in place....

Burt - I'm curious - if you were so disappointed with your Festool purchases, did you return them for a full refund as provided by the Festool 30 Day Money Back guarantee:

http://www.festoolusa.com/guarantee.aspx

[Pete Brown]

EXPLAIN. Your statement seems to imply that Festool has capabilities exceed those of the EZ-Smart System. Educate me!

I don't like commands, but I'll reply anyway, despite the bold underlined caps "explain".

Festool is a system with different features (saws that are quiet, have riving knives, depth stops, plunge capabilities and sit flat on the work) and have additional components such as the MFT, the template system, the squaring attachments, and all the little doo-dads that work together.

The EZ-Smart System seems to have equivalents for many of these, specifically around the guide systems. For some pieces (For example, a saw) you need to go to a third party as EZ-Smart makes a fairly sophisticated guide setup, not saws and routers. That may or may not be a factor in your decision. If you're interested, check them out in their manufacturer forum here.

I just looked and I see you're already a regular poster in that forum, so you have access to that information already. :p

Pete

[Pete Brown]

Another thing that bothers me is that you see posts like one in this thread that go on and on about how great Festool is and then the poster admits that he has only one of their tools.

I still think that's valid. People rave about SawStop and only have one saw. I rave about MiniMax and only have their MM-16 bandsaw.

It doesn't take a purchase of 100 tools to recognize quality

Pete

Edit: I should mention that I have 1 Festool Power tool (the TS-55) and a number of their other tools: MFT 1080, Right angle fixture, Quick Clamps, Extra guide rail. I use my current Festool stuff primarily for breaking down sheet goods. I couldn't do this to finished size with my old setup, with the Festool I can. For that specific use, the alternatives likely would have worked just as well.

[Don Bullock]

Gary,

Did you hear about the trip to Germany for Magazine editors and writers? As I recall, it was all expenses paid for the editor/writer and a person of his choice. I believe it was either 3 or 4 days in Germany.

Festool has received a lot of favorable press.

Burt

In addition to that the projects made with the Domino have already hit the magizines. There was a Green & Green inspired bed in one I got this week. While I'm sure that Green & Green would have used a Domono if they were around back then, I don't see how all the pictures of the Domino joints fits into their style of joinery or is appropriate. Pretty soon they will be saying that's the only way to make mortises. Please don't get me wrong. I'd love to have one along with a lot more of the Festool tools. As soon as I figure out how to convince SWMBO, I'll have some, but you can't say that all this hype is just "word of mouth."

[Pete Brown]

In addition to that the projects made with the Domino have already hit the magizines. There was a Green & Green inspired bed in one I got this week. While I'm sure that Green & Green would have used a Domono if they were around back then, I don't see how all the pictures of the Domino joints fits into their style of joinery or is appropriate. Pretty soon they will be saying that's the only way to make mortises. Please don't get me wrong. I'd love to have one along with a lot more of the Festool tools. As soon as I figure out how to convince SWMBO, I'll have some, but you can't say that all this hype is just "word of mouth."

Interesting. Which magazine is that?

I figured they'd stay away from Domino joinery as the market penetration is going to be pretty slim compared to other joinery options.

Pete

[Ron Hedrick]

Well, I want to replace my older model Porter Cable Orbital sander. The blasted thing uses O'rings to hold the dust canister in place. Only now the O'rings are worn out and they don't serve their purpose any longer. I think the Festool 5" orbital might be a good place to start.

[Ken Milhinch]

Ron,

To answer your original question, I have owned Makita, Hitachi, Triton, Bosch and PC routers, and the Festool 1400 that I now own is the best I have used so far. I have sold all my others (except the Bosch 1617 which I keep for dovetails only). I also have the Multi Function Table, CT mini Dust Collector, Plunge Cut Saw, Rotex Sander, Orbital Sander, and two cordless drills.
I have bought several of these since I retired, and my finances have allowed. Clearly they are among the most expensive tools going around - particularly in Australia - but they are generally the best quality too. I would not, however, say that for their cordless drills, which I have found to be quite ordinary.
The Rotex sander is an absolute joy to use, and dust collection on almost all of their tools is second to none. Bottom line - you get what you pay for.

[Mark Carlson]

Ron,

I went with a Festool saw, two of their sanders and router because of the dust collection. Festools are designed around dust colleciton and isn't an after thought. Having bought those tools and liking them a lot a went and got the DC, MFT and cordless drill. The 90 degree chuck and the offset chuck are awesome when you need them. I love the MFT but not for cross cutting. I have a table saw and slider for that. The FMT excels as an assembly and gluing table. I usually hate the plastic containers that most tools come in but I like the systainers and have a couple of good sized stacks.

~mark

[Rich Person]

The thing that brought me to Festool was a desire for accurate cutting of sheet goods. I don't like hefting around full sheets (bad back), so I bought the saw and guide system. It worked so well I also bought the 1400 router, which I really like.

However, none of these are my favorite. My favorite was my third purchase, the Rotex sander. RAS and stock removal in the same sander is nice, but the dust collection is amazing. I had a P-C RAS, and it wasn't even in the same class. I often fine sand without needing a mask. It appears to get almost all of the dust. Really amazing.

[Dennis Peacock]

This thread is in danger of getting pulled. There are some of you that can't seem to STAY ON TOPIC of the original post. This isn't a thread about Festool vs EZ...We've already been there and I happen to have BOTH systems. I like them both. They both do what they are supposed to do. Now....enough of the EZ vs Festool.

Remember, No Personal Attacks, No Bashing of any Manufacturer, and last but not least....Keep your feelings in the shop. :)

[Pete Brown]

Back to the OP's question:

For me, much if it came down to testing various tools and deciding what I liked the most.

I really like the TS75 saw, but I decided it was too big for 99% of the work I'd use it for. The extra capacity and the additional features would be useful sometimes, but not often enough for me to go that route. The TS55 does an excellent job on the tasks I use it for which is primarily cutting sheet goods. I have yet to stall it or hang it up even cutting some thick maple.

I found that I can plunge cut with the 55 more accurately and more safely (I feel more in control) than with any other circular saw I own or have used. The riving knife is also very helpful for the same reasons it is a nice to have on a table saw. The blade tilt feature is great as it doesn't change the cut line at all.

I have not used the Hilti saw mentioned elsewhere here, so I can't compare that to anything I have used.

I also really like my MFT. I can cut a number of pieces to the same size without lugging them on to my table saw. You'll find some overlap here with your table saw and also your mitersaw, if you have a good scms. The MFT also makes a good squaring and assembly table. It is, however, not a workbench that you want to use for pounding the crap out of stuff. The top is MDF and the legs are a little wobbly for that.

Everyone mentions dust collection. I haven't had a chance to try that out, but I'll have the vac in my shop after April 1 (comes with my Domino order) so I'll find out then.

What I don't like about Festool:
- Have to use their blades in the saws. Their blades are good, but this is one place where I would appreciate some choices.

- My guide system doesn't automatically align when joining two pieces. There's a bit of play in the slots (there has to be to allow them to join, but I think this is a bit more than that) and the ends aren't 100% square to the face. Net result is I need to either purchase a long rail or spend time aligning the two when ripping sheet goods. I'll likely go with buying a long rail. I have not contacted Festool to see if this is a defect with a particular rail, or if I'm doing something incorrectly. I'd love to hear from others (perhaps on a new thread) on this one.

- While price is always a concern, It's not the big factor here. If I perceive something to be very useful and of high quality, I'll save for it. I've done that in other areas (like my CNC mill and the 3k worth of software that runs it). Woodworking is no different.

- That being said, accessories (like various clamps) are overpriced, IMHO.

Pete

[Al Willits]

Ron, if your still with us, as another newbie I'll give ya my thoughts fwiw.

If ya are sure your gonna become a woodworker and you have enough disposable income, go for the Festools, but look at each tool and see if it fits you, they have a cordless drill that comes as a system, meaning you can pull the chuck off and replace with other accesories like a right angle drive and if I remember right a sheet rock screw set up, drill don't feel comfortable in my hand so I passed.

On the other hand, if your new and not sure how far your gonna go, plus money is limited for this hobby, be a bit cautious and buy good quaility, but cheaper tools at first, there's a ton of them out there and they do a nice job, plus if you ever leave the hobby and want to sell them, there's a bigger market.
Also don't be sucked into the "ya gotta have" tool syndrome, buy the basics and see what you need after that....imho

Good luck either way.

Al

[Paul Johnstone]

Interesting. Which magazine is that?

I figured they'd stay away from Domino joinery as the market penetration is going to be pretty slim compared to other joinery options.

Pete

He's right. It's a recent issue of one of the mags I subscribe to. I think it's American Woodworker or Popular Woodworking. I'll try to remember to check tonight. If I forget, bug me with a PM.

[Doug Shepard]

He's right. It's a recent issue of one of the mags I subscribe to. I think it's American Woodworker or Popular Woodworking. I'll try to remember to check tonight. If I forget, bug me with a PM.

I forget which one too, but it's a centerfold paid advertisement/article made of thicker paper than the rest of the mag.

[Pete Brown]

I forget which one too, but it's a centerfold paid advertisement/article made of thicker paper than the rest of the mag.

That makes much more sense. I usually skip over those :)

Thanks

Pete

[Todd Solomon]

Well, I want to replace my older model Porter Cable Orbital sander. The blasted thing uses O'rings to hold the dust canister in place. Only now the O'rings are worn out and they don't serve their purpose any longer. I think the Festool 5" orbital might be a good place to start.
Ron,Make sure and do a search on Festool sanders to help narrow down your choice. I noticed that the topic of 5" Vs. 6" ROS came up often, and a recurring recommendation has been that the 6" 150/3 is lower vibration than the 5". This swayed me away from my initial choice of 5", and got the 6" 150/3.Todd

[Bob Childress]

No huge advertising budget? Word-of-mouth? You gotta be kidding me, right? Check out the FULL page spreads in FWW, Woodworking Journal, and others. If they didn't spend money on advertising before, they're more then making up for it now!!! They are everywhere woodworking magazines are sold.
Gary K.

Gary,

For reasons which I cannot fathom, no matter how innocuous I try to make my Festool posts, I always seem to pull your chain. I wish I knew exactly why.

Anyhow, I am a former ad exec and I can and do say with confidence that Festool's ad budget is miniscule, relatively speaking. Sure, some ads for a new product rollout are sensible. Even a few branding ads now and then to keep your name in front of the WWers. But it's small potatoes.

Next time the big DeWalt semi and three hired guns pull into your local Lowes parking lot and set up an all day demo, then tear it down and move on to another store the following day, think about what that costs them, and they have several touring at once. Or who sponsors the PBS WW shows. And doesn't DeWalt or somebody sponsor a NASCAR racer (not sure)? Anyway, THOSE are big ad budgets. Festool just putters along. :)

[Jim Becker]

Bob, all good points, but I believe that Festool's advertising is appropriate for the market they generally work to address. They know that they are not going to appeal to the mass-market audience at the big-boxes who shop a lot on price. Pros and enthusiests, however, do get addressed in an increasingly active way. Ad buys are up in the magazines and they have been building out a more robust dealer network, especially since allowing the product stocking that previously was verbotten. They certainly are "puttering along" relative to the mass marketers, but that puttering is changing as their business plan allows it to.

Sometimes it's good to understand who is not going to buy your product so you don't spend money trying to convince a non-reponsive audience. ;) Marketing 101.

[Al Willits]

Hard to target a $400 cordless drill to the average homeowner DIY'r, kinda senseless to designate advertising funds toward them, I'm sure Festools is targeting only those who can/will buy them for the most part.

Not sure how this is helping Ron, but hopefully his question has been anwsered...:)

Al...who really thinks we need a newbie section...still...

[Ted Miller]

Al...who really thinks we need a newbie section...still...

Al, I have been into WWing for more than half my life and I am still a newbie. I feel as long as I can learn new things daily then I am a newbie...

[Al Willits]

Ted, I'd say your past the newbie stage, least to the apprentice level anyway...:D :D

Al.....who's hopelessly lost, but making good time...

[Paul Johnstone]

I forget which one too, but it's a centerfold paid advertisement/article made of thicker paper than the rest of the mag.

At our age and stage of life, which is more exciting: A centerfold or a description of a new tool? When I was 20, I never thought it would even be debatable. :)

[Bob Marino]

"What I would like to know is what makes Festool Products so desireable."
Dave..I beg to differ with your statement about advertising and what it has to do with original question.
Madison Avenue has known for many generations what advertising can do to make their products "desireable."
Many people are attracted to expensive products because they are told how great they are and you can "be the envy of your peers" etc.,etc.
I hear people say " wow, he drives a Lexus" and they have never actually driven it themselves, but it has been said so many times that a Lexus is great so they assume a Lexus is great.
DESIRE ...conjures up many images. I'm no head shrink, but if someone hears so much how great a product is ( word of mouth). After awhile they assume it is great, and want one, too.
Word of mouth also goes the other way. You don't hear too many people bragging ( gloating) or desiring a Sears product lately, do you?
Bottom line is....if people keep buying them (Festool) then they must me a good product. Repeat customers, speak volumes.
Gary K.

Gary,

I have been a Festool Sales Agent (ISA) now referred to as Festool Dealer, since January 02. I can tell you honestly, that if the tools were not, IMHO, a cut above everything else out there, I would never have considered selling them - way too boring - I had a good day job. If the tools did not live up to customers' expectations, I would not have continued to sell them. If the tools would not have exceeded my customer's expectations, I would not, no rather could not, have sold them a second tool, let alone multiples of tools. And most, not all, but most buy multiples of tools.
Bob

[Bill Jepson]

The situation with Festool is the same as other tools I buy. Does the tool fullfill a NEED or a WANT? For cutting sheet goods as others have mentioned the TS55 is hard to beat. Great dust collection, and even with two rails connected it cuts a straighter line than I could ever cut otherwise. Therefore I consider the TS55 to fullfill a NEED. Alternately I use a standard shop vac connected to a Festool vacuum hose. I would like to have a Festool vac, but that would be more of a WANT since the standard shop vac does a good job. It might not do as good as a regular festool vac, (HEPA output filter) and I'd love the auto on feature, but at $800 it is still a WANT not a need. I'll buy other Festools if they do the job better than other tools. Otherwise my want supply (AKA $MONEY$) will have to be higher than my other needs.
Bill

[Dan Clark]

Advertising merely alerts people that a product is available and MAY meet their needs. Today, we are innundated with high-pressure salesmen and constant mass-media marketing messages. And the message is consistent - "OUR PRODUCT IS THE BEST!!!!"

Most inteligent people nowadays cast a cynical eye on the majority of advertisting. We say, "There's something that MIGHT meet my needs." Then we check it out. We look for reviews. We ask questions on forums. Maybe go and try it out.

Unfortunately, much of the hype turns out to be just that - hype! "New and improved" means that it has a new color! "Better than anything on the market" means that every other competitor's product is not sold in that market - a small town in Upper Lithuania! "Superior Quality" means that some marketing guy's superior told him it was quality.

But once in a while you run into the exception - a product or brand that meets and exceeds your expectations. Festool and it's products are one of those. The first time you pick up your new Festool tool, you think, "Wow, this really is solid. And smooth too!". Then you start putting them together and realize how well the system works. Not only is the system total greater than the sum of the individual parts, but you can make it YOUR system to meet YOUR needs.

People take a chance and buy their first Festool based on some combination of marketing, hearsay, and reviews. They buy their second and succeeding Festools because their current Festool product(s) talk to them every time they use them.

My Festools talk to me every time I use them. They tell me how good they are, how well they meet my needs, and what a bright guy I was to buy them!

That's why I buy Festool.

Regards,

Dan.

[Tom Cowie]

Hello to all,

I went to the Chantilly Va show last Friday and picked up a TS-75 EQ with two rails and an accessory kit and a Rotex 150 sander. Why?

research research research :) :) .I did not buy the saw because it was the the most powerful at 13amps and I did not buy the sander because it was the lightest at 5lbs.

I bought them because I feel strongly that these tools will fit my style of woodworking for many years to come ...

I have a good friend at work that would absolutely hate this saw but he can rip a 2x4 straight, freehanded.. I can't :(

Places like this Forum are so valuable too everyone but we all have different taste's and abilities. I feel that this is what makes woodworking a special craft...

Tom

[Peter Kuhlman]

Festool - humm. Well, I own 4 of their sanders, 1 router, 1 saw, 1 vac, 1 drill, 1 jigsaw. Was so impressed with the drills and jigsaw that I have purchased several for use by my crew at work - oilfield, not woodworking.

To me, it really is the little things that impress me. Example - For years I fought the idea of the CT33 as I had a Fein Turbo II. Now that I have one, I gave my Fein to my son. Better balanced, easier rolling, top that can store stuff, variable suction, etc. I do have competitive tools to many of the Festool items - like a Bosch barrel grip jigsaw, PC sander, Panasonic drill, many routers. The Festool as many have said just feels better in use. Is it worth it? If you can afford them and appreciate fine quality pricey products it other aspects of your life, you will find them a worthwhile addition. I think most people can be perfectly happy with a tool collection of Porter Cable, Dewalt, Milwaukee or other good brands and I have tools from all of them. I am one who doesn't own other type toys - no boats, motorcycles, 4 wheelers, guns, fast cars, etc. Tools are my toys. :p
Oh, and Bob took all my money. :D
Pete

[Gary Keedwell]

Gary,

For reasons which I cannot fathom, no matter how innocuous I try to make my Festool posts, I always seem to pull your chain. I wish I knew exactly why.

Anyhow, I am a former ad exec and I can and do say with confidence that Festool's ad budget is miniscule, relatively speaking. Sure, some ads for a new product rollout are sensible. Even a few branding ads now and then to keep your name in front of the WWers. But it's small potatoes.

Next time the big DeWalt semi and three hired guns pull into your local Lowes parking lot and set up an all day demo, then tear it down and move on to another store the following day, think about what that costs them, and they have several touring at once. Or who sponsors the PBS WW shows. And doesn't DeWalt or somebody sponsor a NASCAR racer (not sure)? Anyway, THOSE are big ad budgets. Festool just putters along. :)
Bob...NO idea about the chain-pulling....I'm not one of those moles who digs into old posts..it is probably just a coincidence.
Jim Becker is right on about the advertising. Festool targets their base, which you won't see at the BORGs. Budgets are relative to percentage of sales. De Walt has bigger gross sales so it has more $ for advertising. They cater to the masses, like homeowners and weekend warriers.
I am one of the woodworkers who only has one Festool tool. The drill, itself isn't as impressive as the the great chucks that come with it. As a machinist in my other life, I wanted a drill that ran true (little run-out) and was very impressed with it. I don't want to burst anybodies bubble, but I have heard a few people who bought the cordless and weren't impressed and did not buy another Festool product. To each his own. Maybe if they tried the circular saw or the router they would be more impressed. Maybe it depends on what tool you order first. I almost bought the 55 saw for sheet goods but want to save up for the sanding system for health reasons.
Anyways, no matter how good the product, advertising will surely increase sales.;)
Gary K.

[Dennis O'Leary]

Interesting. Which magazine is that?

I figured they'd stay away from Domino joinery as the market penetration is going to be pretty slim compared to other joinery options.

Pete

Pete - I thiink that Dr. Festool hopes otherwise. Time will tell. It would seem that they have delayed the release of the Domino into the States to ensure they have sufficient stock. Heresay is that the original stock for European and Australasian release about 12 months ago was intended to last about 12 months, and sold out in about 8 weeks. They totally underestimated the popularity of the tool - i would imagine that they do not want to repeat this error.

As to the advertising - I bought my Domino and C12 on the strength of other WW'rs recommendations only. Previously all I had heard was the 'too expensive, price controlled' refrain.

Each to their own. Keep an open mind. If you think that they are too expensive, dont buy.

[Ron Hedrick]

I would like to post my thanks to everyone that took the time to not only respond to my initial question, but also, to those who just viewed the original post and all the responses that it generated. And yes even the debates between systems were helpful. Once again, Thanks!

[Paul Johnstone]

Pete,

check out Popular Woodworking, the April 2007 issue.

That's the one with the Domino project as a centerfold.

[Dennis O'Leary]

I have that issue - it's printed the same as the rest of the mag, and headed 'featured tool' or something. Didn't appear to be a sponsored plug for the Domino to me.

[Paul Johnstone]

I have that issue - it's printed the same as the rest of the mag, and headed 'featured tool' or something. Didn't appear to be a sponsored plug for the Domino to me.

I think it was a paid advertisement. Although I like ads like that which have a project or usage tip in them.

I know Freud has done similiar inserts in magazines on tips for using their router bits. I remember Jet doing one with Parallel Clamps. I know Freud disclosed that it was a paid advertisement (or at least they did once on one that I saved from about 1998).

[Jack Young]

Newcomers to woodworking are blessed these days with perhaps a fundamentally profound choice in terms of how they configure their embryonic shop. Before the later 1800s woodworkers moved hand tools through the wood, etc., which meant that the workbench and a box full of relatively small hand tools, etc., were the major footprints in the shop. Then came power tools, each with its sizeable footprint, through which the woodworker moved the wood. More efficient, but a lot more space required, for sure.

Festool (and other systems like, or nearly like, it) is sort of a return to the pre-industrial era with a smaller space requirement, but with the efficiency of using power quite accurately directed. One can, for instance, leave out the Scandinavian workbench, maybe even a tablesaw, and still do most accurate and effective work. The stackable tool boxes, the MFT table (mine is now extra-wide, and serves my needs for cabinet work and general activities, but not serious hand planing) and the guides take very little space and are easily moved to a wall.

A lot has already been said here about quality, etc., with which I totally agree, but the option of having a system which puts out great work product, requires little space, is moveable and will be around and performing for decades may well be a nucleus newcomers ought to seriously consider.

The basic core items, at least for me, would be the plunge circular saw, the 1010 MFT, the mid-size dust extractor, jigsaw, Rotex, 150/3 and duplex sanders, guides and clamps. The cost would be roughly that of a good cabinet grade table saw. That, with a handful of other standard tools (the need for which will reveal itself along the way) will get quite a lot done well as you start climbing that steep learning curve that never seems to level off.

I wish you the best with your entry into a wonderful hobby/pasttime.

Jack

[Dennis O'Leary]

Crikey - a measured, sensible summary of 'why festool'. Nicely said.