Any comments on A4dable engravers

[Ralph Lindberg]

Found this firm on a web search. http://a4dableww.com/
Could not find any references to them here, but they have an E-Bay store http://stores.ebay.com/A4dable-Woodworking_W0QQssPageNameZstrkQ3amefsQ3amesstQQtZ km with reasonable ratings. But I would like more then a 1 sentence comment.

Their prices are impressively small, but the question is, are they worth it?

[Dave Jones]

It looks like the typical cheap Chinese laser sold by a number of companies. You could probably buy it direct from China for 1/2 that price.

There's a thread going on over on engravingetc.org at the moment by a guy who bought a 40 watt Chinese laser on ebay and he's been struggling to get it to engrave in a repeatable way.

My guess is that if you're looking for a toy to tinker with and are good at understanding technology, it's probably OK. But if you're looking for a serious tool to produce products with, then you're probably better off looking at one of the major brands.

[Scott Shepherd]

I think this is from a previous discussion about the same make.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=52387

[Ralph Lindberg]

Thanks for the link Scott. I had done a search of the fourm for A4dable not A4dableWW so I missed that one.

[Ed Maloney]

First off they have small work areas. Other things to be concerned about would be the 3 month warranty on the laser tube (replacement is $429 for the 60W) and tech support availability. Some of the other descriptions say "very compatible with Corel" whatever that means. And it's air and water cooled?

Also - Feedback on it's own is only part of the story. Check out the feedback listings and check some of the recent items this seller has sold. They have been selling cruets, a high tech pet water bowl (which looks pretty cool though), candlesticks, and lasers.

[Scott Shepherd]

a high tech pet water bowl (which looks pretty cool though)

Except for the quote "Like the original, the circulating water attracts pets, encouraging them to drink more water, which in turn reduces the risk of diseases like urinary tract infections and kidney disease."

They might want to talk to a vet, as drinking too much water can be very damaging, even deadly, to a dog. It causes their stomache to actually twist and many dogs die from it every year. It happens to labs a lot.

Trust me, I know, as I had a dog drink too much water (just one normal bowl) and spent over $1,500 at an emergency vet having surgery to correct the issue. They said it happens all the time and it comes from drinking too much water at one time.

[Joe Pelonio]

I've just E-mailed them Since it's supposed to be in Oregon, maybe I can get an address to see them in person. I've asked that and also if they have sold any to customers in this area that I could go and talk to and see it.

You can by a lot of tubes at that price for what you'd save on the initial investment if that's the only issue (which I kind of doubt).

Update:

Any laser people in Portland? I rec'd an answer, he says that a customer in Wilsonville has one that he'd be happy to show me. My wife and I go to Portland several times a year but it may be a month or two before we get a chance. Apparently Wilsonville is just south of there.

[Mike Mackenzie]

If you do the math @429.00 per three months x 4 = 1716.00 per year. That to me seems pretty expensive considering you would normally get three to five years for a GAS C02 laser tube that once needs to be recharged is only 1100.00.

If you crunch all of the numbers I would think that the Brand Name lasers would cost you less over the long haul.

[Ralph Lindberg]

If you do the math @429.00 per three months x 4 = 1716.00 per year. That to me seems pretty expensive considering you would normally get three to five years for a GAS C02 laser tube that once needs to be recharged is only 1100.00.
....

Of course the problem with your assumption is that the laser would go out every 3 months (assuming daily use).
I've had electronic items with 90 day warranties that lasted 10 years (and others that died in less 6 months). All you can bet is that 99% of the lasers would last at least 3 months

[Ralph Lindberg]

....

Any laser people in Portland? I rec'd an answer, he says that a customer in Wilsonville has one that he'd be happy to show me. My wife and I go to Portland several times a year but it may be a month or two before we get a chance. Apparently Wilsonville is just south of there.

That could be a useful data point. An experience laser person looking at the product.
Sometimes these Chinese products are just cheap, sometimes they are inexpensive. The former being bad, the later good. Knowing which is the tricky part.

[Joe Pelonio]

If you do the math @429.00 per three months x 4 = 1716.00 per year. That to me seems pretty expensive considering you would normally get three to five years for a GAS C02 laser tube that once needs to be recharged is only 1100.00.

If you crunch all of the numbers I would think that the Brand Name lasers would cost you less over the long haul.

Mike,

I was going by my personal experience, where the tube lasts about a year and costs $2,300 to replace.

[Larry Bratton]

Scott:
Could be a dog trap. I understand a nice fat cocker spaniel is a delicacy in China :D

[Craig Hogarth]

I had looked at these several months ago. I spoke with an ebayer who bought one and he said he was having some problems being new and all. However he did claim that a4dable does have good support and helped him out.

I emailed a4dable and they linked me the page to download manuals.

I never looked at them, but in case you're interested.....

http://www.a4dableww.com/mnls/

[Ralph Lindberg]

...
I emailed a4dable and they linked me the page to download manuals.

I never looked at them, but in case you're interested.....

http://www.a4dableww.com/mnls/

They are certainly written by someone only semi-fluent in English. But informative, thanks

[Carol VanArnam]

Scott:
Could be a dog trap. I understand a nice fat cocker spaniel is a delicacy in China :D

You can talk bad about my laser but not my dog. Norman, my "fat cocker spaniel" didn't like your comment Larry. He bites!!!! :eek: :eek: Watch out....

[Larry Bratton]

Carol:
We better get back on topic here or the StuntEngraver will be on our case. Norman is probably safe as long as you don't move to China:D

[Rob Bosworth]

Ralph, how can you say "All you can bet is that 99% of the lasers would last at least 3 months" ? Is there any data that backs up that point? From what has been reported on many of these forums, we have not heard anyone getting 3 months on their lasers. From the sounds of the reports, the owner's of these machines get pretty good at swapping out their lasers.

If anyone has had one of these Chinese laser engraving systems longer than 3 months, we would love to hear what your experience has been. Anyone have one for at least a year, and use it?

[Ralph Lindberg]

Ralph, how can you say "All you can bet is that 99% of the lasers would last at least 3 months" ? Is there any data that backs up that point? ...


In general, yes, it's called the WPFR (Warranty Period Failure Rate), any company that wants to survive wants to keep the failures in this period as low as is economically possible. Most companies set their warranties, based on a failure rate of 1% (or less) during the warranty period (yes, this is a field I've worked in).

Recall that anything that fails in less then 90 days, they pay for. So, if the unit was designed to have a 90 day life (in every day use), statisicly half the units would fail in less then 90 days. Which would be a cost to them of 1/2 the cost of a tube, for every unit sold.

Even if the MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures) was such that 10% of the units failed at the 90 day mark, they would still have to pay for those units. At a warranty cost of $30 to $40 dollars, for every unit sold. Considering the (average) net profit (all industries) is about 10% of retail, that would mean that their net profit would be cut by about 10%.

Now, this is a small firm, even the company making the tubes is not a large firm. But if they think the tube will last (at least) 90 days (under daily use), it's likely 50% mark many more days then that (not knowing the sigma of the failure curve, I couldn't guess the exact number of days).

Even if they have not done a formal statistical study, they would be working from a good seat-of-the pants feeling.

[Rob Bosworth]

Wow, Ralph. You sound like you've got an MBA. Very impressive. Sounds like text book statistics. But it also sounds like you work for this company. If I remember correctly, didn't you start this thread as someone who is looking for outside opinions, but just happened to include the thread. Very tricky. Sounds like maybe you took an advanced MBA course on Strategery.

Sorry if I am way off base, I am just a lowly laser jockey.

Here is my statistical analysis.

You buy a machine for $3,000. You play with it for a while. You go to resell it and you find out it is not worth anything.

You buy a known machine that works for $ 10,000. You play with it and make some product. You tire of it and not getting a paycheck and turn around and sell it for $7,000.

Which machine costs you more?

[Ralph Lindberg]

Wow, Ralph. You sound like you've got an MBA. Very impressive. Sounds like text book statistics. But it also sounds like you work for this company. If I remember correctly, didn't you start this thread as someone who is looking for outside opinions, but just happened to include the thread. Very tricky. Sounds like maybe you took an advanced MBA course on Strategery.

Sorry if I am way off base, I am just a lowly laser jockey.

Off base, maybe. Yes I did ask and despite the people talking about dog dishes and the people that don't understand anything about the actuall question, I have learned a little.

BTW, I do have 30 years in industry, just not this industry. Oh,ya and a BS in engineering (and most of my masters), so yes, I actually do know what I am talking about when it comes to general issues with MTBF and such.

[Dave Jones]

Ralph, I could be wrong, but I think you're missing something here. From what I have seen in looking around the web at the cheap Chinese lasers, most of the Chinese companies are shipping the lasers with a spare laser tube and no warranty. The American "companies" (I suspect often one or two person outfits) are keeping the spare tube and offering a 3 month warranty on the tube shipped with the unit. They then have the spare tube to supply wor warranty repairs, or to sell as a replacement after the warranty.

My guess is they are doing no detailed analysis of failure rates. They are giving the minimum warranty they feel they can give, and are maybe hoping that most people will take a fair amount of that first 3 months just trying to figure out how to use the machine and won't rack up a lot of hours on the tube in that time.

Some of the Chinese companies are giving a short warranty, but are also giving a spare tube with the laser, so you would have to go through both tubes in the warranty period to be able to ask them for another.

This is all based on info gathered on the web and may or may not be accurate. I have never bought one of these cheap lasers. So I'm just giving my opinions and guesses.

[Ed Maloney]

Off base, maybe. Yes I did ask and despite the people talking about dog dishes and the people that don't understand anything about the actuall question, I have learned a little.

BTW, I do have 30 years in industry, just not this industry. Oh,ya and a BS in engineering (and most of my masters), so yes, I actually do know what I am talking about when it comes to general issues with MTBF and such.
Soooo, Ralph, are you a woodworker looking to expand into lasers? Maybe it would help us since we don't understand the actual question if you could tell us what your planned use of the laser is.

Also - I think we can probably laser engrave something on that dog dish. :D

[Scott Shepherd]

I think we can probably laser engrave something on that dog dish. :D

Don't forget about the stereotypical bone shaped dog tag for the dog :)

I've bought a lot of machinery over the years. Big stuff mainly and if anyone offered me main replacement components right off the bat, I'd probably never have bought a single thing from them. That would send a signal to me, as a buyer, that they don't have faith in their product.

I know it's inexpensive, but personally, from the outside looking in, it looks like more trouble than it's worth.

But, that may just be me, as I get older.

[Ralph Lindberg]

Dave, from what I have been able to learn/figure out, this is certainly a Chinese firm (and small), but unlike some of the Chinese "firms" they 1) have a US rep and 2) have software and documentation written in English (no matter how badly).

As I noted before, sometimes these Chinese products are inexpensive, sometimes they are just cheap, knowing the difference is priceless.

Ed, I'm looking at things to expand what I do. Retirement is not far away and turning a hobby into a hobby with a small income stream has to be considered. But I know there are dozens (and hundreds) of people in my area that make wooden "things" for sale. Going head to head with people is not my idea of fun, rather I need to consider ways to seperate myself from them. Custom engraved "things" would do that. Example, would you rather spend $30 for a fancy hand turned wood pen, or $35 for a fancy hand turned wood pen, with your name engraved on it?

[Ralph Lindberg]

Yesterday (?) Dave posted a question on Rabbit Laser engravers by HXLaser (?). From studiing that web site, it appears that they may (?) be the supplier to A4dableWW.

HX Laser lists the expected tube life for what appears to be the same engraver that A4dableWW sells. They claim a 800 to 1000 hour life. Which works out to 5 to 6 man-months of continuous use. Which means that, allowing for setup time, swapping items, etc. One of these tubes should last about a year, in a continious 8 hr a day, operation. SWAG, that should mean, in a one-man shop, where you are spending lots of time doing other things. One of these tube might last two or three years

[Joe Pelonio]

The owner of US Cutter whose vinyl plotter I am running now is looking into becoming a US distributor for Chinese lasers also. I have provided him with information as to what to look for, and after researching from here and talking to his contacts in China he will be going there to look at them.

I have found that while the first plotters coming over were, frankly, crap, the ones he is selling now are every bit as good as the much more expensive name brand models.

If we think about the Japanese imports of the 60's, how bad that stuff was, but how they eventually dominated (and still do) the electronics and automobile industries here, the Chinese are trying to do the same.

With lasers they may not be at that point yet, they are becoming aware that U.S. (European and Canadian and others) consumers demand quality and durability so it's a matter of time.

I think that a hobbyist not running a laser 10 hours a day like we do in production shops may be find these current Chinese lasers to be a good investment, as long as they have software compatability and English speaking support.

Update:

I may have to look into one of these as a second machine if things keep up. I just rec'd another shipment of materials and realized that there are not enough hours in the day to get all this laser work done soon, and I barely have room for all this stuff. So much for sleep.

For the jobs I have scheduled (all 12x24 sheets):

30 sheets 1/4" flourescent pink acrylic
25 Lasermax red/white
55 black laserable ADA alternative
16 maroon "
21 white "

[Ralph Lindberg]

While I'm at it an update on this firm...

I contacted their US sales address, complaining about the poor English in the manuals, offering to help, and got a response within an hour. The US Sales rep said he knew the manuals stunk, but headquarters had control of the manuals and would have to fix them (one line was really funny, the manual talkes about etching "organic glass", musta took me 30 seconds to realize they meant lead-free glass)

I used A4dable's eBay ratings list to contact known customers that bought their units: 6 emails out, 5 responded (all positive), two are planning to buy additional units from A4dable to meet their workload.

I've also been monitoring their customer forum, I have not noticed a single complaint that did not get addressed. Almost all were initial setup and use issues. I have not seen anything (yet) about failures

[Bill Cunningham]

Well, it certainly looks like you got "results of which are the very finest" (pardon the Engrish :D) I wonder what a English manual translated into Chinese would read like to a Chinese,, Probably just as funny...;)

[Chuck Burke]

If you crunch all of the numbers I would think that the Brand Name lasers would cost you less over the long haul.


Mike,

I have a theory when it comes to tools and equipment. DON'T BUY CHEAP TOOLS!! Period. This has proven true more often than not.......Brand Name machines are Brand Name for a reason.

Buying a laser or ANY piece of equipment with which one is going to make money, is an INVESTMENT in *my* opinion....you sure wouldn't want to have your machine break down, or not get the part in time, in the middle of a huge order.......

[Larry Bratton]

And..some of these tools that are BRAND name turn out to be CHEAP tools anyway. I'm not sure but I think the words PROFESSIONAL TOOLS should be the key. The opposite are termed CONSUMER or HOBBY. Same applies to machines. If your planning on making a living or part of your living with it, consider this advice.

[Chuck Burke]

I'm not sure but I think the words PROFESSIONAL TOOLS should be the key. The opposite are termed CONSUMER or HOBBY. Same applies to machines.

Larry, you make a VERY valid point......Delta for example makes GREAT professional tools, but their "Workforce" line is totally inferior.

Thanks

[Bill Cunningham]

Black & Decker is another line of 'home/hobby' tools..
But, sometimes you only need a drill for a week! :D..
I find most of the cheap ones are 'really' just converters...
After a shot period of use, they become very efficient at converting electricity into smoke!

[Gary Helms]

http://fishinfoolz.net/phpBB2/

[Scott Shepherd]

Sounds pretty positive? Their forum has 29 members total, with more than one member actually working for them.

I own a Chinese made plotter, and I've read through the issues with the Chinese lasers on this very forum. My advice to anyone is that if you are computer savvy and mechanically inclined, then you might do just fine. However, if you can't figure things out on your own, troubleshoot without much help, then you're probably not a good candidate.

My plotter manual, in my opinion, could be used to shim up a wobbly table. At no point did it tell me how to actually use the machine or get started. Most Chinese stuff doesn't have USB connections either, so you'll be forced to get a parallel port working or try and use a parallel to USB adapter which is an entire 'nother subject. They tend to gloss over that and make statements like USB communications. Well, no, not really. It's parallel and I need a USB adapter, which isn't always much fun to work with.

My plotter runs just fine, but I'd never recommend it to someone who can't figure computer/machine issues out on their own. You almost have to assume you have no support. Yes, the people who sell them do support them, but not the type of support you'd expect if you paid for a brand name model. Many don't publish phone numbers, so you have to deal with e-mail as a communication method. When your machine isn't running, emailing and waiting 1,2, or 3 days for a response can be very frustrating.

If you're handy and love that type of stuff, then they might be just what you were looking for. If you aren't sure which end of a screwdriver to hold, then it's probably not the best advice, in my opinion.

But, that's just my opinion.

[Gary Helms]

I know for a fact the only employee on the board is ohbouy the administrator and their phone number is 541-977-4171 as listed on their website

[Gary Helms]

Hi Ralph, the manuals were upgraded about a month ago fyi

[Scott Shepherd]

Gary, not sure what your affiliation with them is, but please look at the facts before posting that it's getting great reviews. Let's look at the site. It's up to 36 members now (it's also a forum with an address that's something about fishing), 19 of them have never posted, of those 19, more than 1/2 are spambots registering on a phpBB forum. That leaves 16, one's the owner. So we're down to 15 people who have posted. It appears you have posted a lot there as well.

The majority of those have asked questions, not giving the product great reviews. On the "Kudos" thread, 2 people responded and the first response was thanking them for the forum, and the second post was agreeing with the first post. If you're happy with your laser, then say so.

Truth in advertising, please.

[Dave Jones]

Gary, not sure what your affiliation with them is, but...

His affiliation is that he owns A4dable Woodworking.

[Ralph Lindberg]

..... It appears you have posted a lot there as well.

More telling is that I contacted all of the eBay buyers I could identify, over a several month period. Not one responded that they wouldn't buy again and over 3/4 what they were happy and two where getting ready to buy a 2nd unit.

[James MacNab]

Hi all,
If you are looking for a laser first you should go to ripoff.com to check to see if the company is listed with them. Next when you pick your company go to a number of fourms like this and ask about the service and tech support, this very inportant. Good luck
Jim

[Darren Null]

I've just bought a laser, so I've just been down that trail. The machine that I would have bought if I hadn't discovered my second-hand one is here:
http://www.laserite.com/co2-ll10060.html
...and it's still pencilled in as 1st choice for replacement/upgrade. £11,500. If you're from the States, you have more options...Machines that are cheap for you might be uneconomic for me because I still have to get it to Europe.

Anyway, these are the impressions that I've got in my travels (that may or may not be accurate- it's salesmen that have told me these things):

"Water cooled" is a bad sign. In a new machine, it could well be the old-style (and cheap) glass laser tube common in cheap chinese imports. These tubes don't last nearly as long as the metal ones and (I'm told) the power output can be "all over the place" even in a machine that is adjusted perfectly. This will give you all sorts of problems, particularly if you're engraving deeply or multiple-pass burning.

Stepper motors vs servo motors. Servo motors are better than stepper motors, but considerably more expensive. Servo motors in a machine is a good sign and if a manafacturer has coughed up for a servo system it is likely that some thought has gone into the quality of the rest of the components. Conversely, stepper motors does not necessarily mean that it's a bad machine- it just means that you have to look carefully at the rest of the specs. Some manufacturers have weighed the cost/benefit and have decided that the extra for servos just isn't worth it, but produce otherwise admirable machines. The Lotus system above uses a THK system which is somewhere between step/servo performance apparently.

The cost of the machine isn't all you'll end up paying for. Many manufacturers have extra costs for training/installation, and this will usually run you a couple of thousand extra. Air extraction system; filters for same;honeycomb table; rotary....these will add to the cost, sometimes alarmingly.

New vs second hand. If you can afford it, go new and get all the guarantees and backup that you can. I've just bought a second-hand machine and I have a lot to learn and assemble before turning it on.

On a purely personal note, measure your doorways. Your internal doorframes are not necessarily the same size as your front door, thus possibly requiring some 'fine tuning' of doorframes before your machine will go in it's intended home. DOH!