Choosing a Dye for Curly Maple

[Caleb Dietrich]

Hello,

I have been having trouble finding a dye that matches what I have envisioned for my set of Curly Maple Shaker side tables. So far I have tried 5 different dyes, and a number of different ratios. I've narrowed it down that I want to have a naturally light, almost toasted, color that will darken the stipes a bit more. The closest I have come is the Lee Valley Honeytone Amber Aniline dye, but it is still a little dark. I tried the Transfast Light Vintage Maple and it looks fluorecent yellow. I have also tried 1/2 potency of different dyes, but I think they just look washed out. I might try mixing a Russet Amber with the light vintage maple.

I think I have decided to top coat with Tried and True Varn Oil. I guess I could also try tinting that.

I'm open to any suggestions.

[John Huber]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ... and the most attractive dye for curly maple is too.

Here's my recipe for curly maple. Search my recent postings and you'll find a jewelry chest done this way. Earlier postings show a cabinet and a bedside chest.

1. Sand down to 220 grit.
2. Wipe with water. Let it dry overnight.
3. Sand again with 220 grit to remove the raised grain.
4. Wipe on Lee Valley Honeytone Amber cut to 1/4 of the stock solution strength. Do not wipe off the excess. Let it dry overnight.
5. Finish with General Finishes Seal-A-Cell and Arm-R-Seal. These finishes have a slight amber tone and darken the dyed curly maple.

If you use a clearer finish system, you may need to try a stronger dye solution than mine. Actually, there is no substitute for experimenting with finishes on a scrap piece of the stock you will be using.

Besides a stronger dye solution, another way to increase contrast is to sand after dyeing. The sanding removes the dyed layer from the pale regions more than the "end grain" dark regions. IMHO this method may be hard to control.

[Rick Peek]

Try some transtint golden brown. Mix it weak. It leaves a beautiful
golden amber color. If its still to dark,try sanding with 220 to
the desired color. Than cover with BLO to pop the figure.
Top coat with blond, (I like Zinzer Seal Coat) dewaxed shellac.
Top coat of choice.

[Rob Millard]

Caleb,
I’ve gotten excellent results from three different approaches. I have attached links that show the finished color and contrast of the various methods.

http://americanfederalperiod.com/CM%20side%20table.htm (http://americanfederalperiod.com/CM%20side%20table.htm)
This one was dyed with a homemade walnut husk dye, and then sanded to leave color only in the curls. I then applied a fairly weak solution of Mosers Honey Amber Maple. I think this one may come closer to what you are wanting. The table appears lighter in person than it does in the photo.


http://americanfederalperiod.com/cof5.htm (http://americanfederalperiod.com/cof5.htm)

This link has a full description of the coloring process. This is now the way I finish all curly maple furniture.

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=27818&highlight=millard (http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=27818&highlight=millard)
This desk was dyed only with the Honey Amber Maple dye, because the customer wanted a light color. I wasn’t sure how it would look, but it turned out very nicely, but it still may be darker than what you want.

Rob Millard

[Jim Becker]

You very well may need to use multiple colors or mix up a combination that meets your vision. And remember, on your test pieces, you MUST go all the way through your finishing regimen to know what the actual color will be...dye on the wood is not representative of the finial color until you have the rest of the finish applied.

[Caleb Dietrich]

I really appreciate the help-especially the pics and links to old threads. Reading through some of the old threads, I think I ruled out the T&T varn oil.

I was looking around homesteadfinishing.com and found an article on an Early American Maple finish. It looks to be the coloring I'd envisioned. He used Trans Tint Dark Vintage Maple at 1/2 potency (a color that also came up in Rob's posting), and a darker glaze. I wanted to use a simple oil finish over a dye. The glaze complicates things, but it could be worth it-as well as a good learning experience.

What gets me is that TransFast makes a powder Dye called Early American Maple but it is nothing like the tone he (Jeff Jewitt, I think) gets from Dark Vintage Maple.

Oh-yeah, as far as making sample pieces of the finish-I've made so many, I might have to go buy more material.:D

I bought a nice little scale that measures .005 oz.

[Caleb Dietrich]

After a lot of testing, I've found it. Transtint Dark Vintage Maple @ 1 oz. per 2 qts. Thanks for the help. The pictures really are great. You guys do some nice work for sure. I don't know where else I could get this kind of info.

[Jeff Jewitt]

I hope I'm not violating and posting rules in doing this - but this is for educational purposes only. The "name" given to a dye is a starting point, it shouldn;t be construed as a final color. Below are two scans of curly maple, one with Dark Vintage maple TransTint at roughly 1 oz/2qts, and the other darker one, 1 oz/1 qt. Both were sealed with Sealcoat (1 lb cut) then glazed with burnt umber glaze.

[Joel Ficke]

Hey Jeff,

Thanks for stopping by. I find the same effect on Mahogony as well. The more dilute the dye the more the natural wood color underneath shows through, so concentration is very important.

One question I have though is will multiple applications of a lower concentration dye give the same effect as one application of higher concentration? Besides the time it takes to apply mulitple coats, what other tradeoffs are there to be aware of between the two cases?

[Jim Becker]

No problem with any kind of posting like that, Jeff! We are all here to learn and the tips are wonderful...

[Caleb Dietrich]

Man, I've got to watch what I write about TransTint...:D Thanks for the pics Jeff. As you can imagine I've been thumbing through back issues of FWW lately, reading a number of your articles as I experiment with different finishes.
My sample of 1oz/2qt is a little lighter, because it doesn't have a glaze applied. The glaze will be decided in the next phase. I've had a lot of fun playing with the different colors. My basement looks like a chem lab. I really feel good about the tint I decided on. The 1/2 potency TransTint dark vintage maple is a nice natural tone.

[Jeff Jewitt]

Hey Jeff,

One question I have though is will multiple applications of a lower concentration dye give the same effect as one application of higher concentration? Besides the time it takes to apply mulitple coats, what other tradeoffs are there to be aware of between the two cases?

My experience is no. If you want a darker effect -it's best to make the dye stronger.

One thing I'd like to add. When working with the yellow/brown dye colors, glaze is very important. Yellows are very luminous colors (meaning vivid) and sometimes can look artificial. One effect of floating a pigmented color over a dye (glazing) is that it softens or subdues this, making the effect a little more natural. This is important if you are trying to achieve what is more loosely called a traditional or historic color.

[Jim Becker]

My experience is no. If you want a darker effect -it's best to make the dye stronger.

My much shorter experience ;) confirms this...the "return" on multiple applications is minimal. I have to learn more about dye mixology!

[Joel Ficke]

Maybe this is going to get off-track, but if there's minimal return from multiple coats of dye, what's the best method for blending different color boards on a single project? I realize glaze etc is an option, but if one places a premium on clarity, this is not a good option. Is it best to have multiple mixes of dye laying around and try to blend that way? Seems simpler to hit a light board twice to darken it, and I thought I got decent results doing so, but maybe it was wishful thinking....

[Jim Becker]

Joel, it will darken with additional applications...just not proportionally. One additional application adds a little darker color, but not a lot. Consider it an art project...and you need a good eye when working with material that is not evenly colored to begin with. Hence, my common statement, "the finishing process starts with the selection of the material".

[Joel Ficke]

Jim / Jeff,

Thanks for your responses. I think that is what I'm seeing (and probably expecting) -- slight darkening with additional applications -- enough to at least aid the blending operation, but probably not as dramatic as using higher dye concentrations. It was helpful for me to have you clarify that.

Jim I think your common statement is generally good, but for some furniture just not possible or very difficult. For example on the project shown below, finding 16/4 straight-grain for legs, 12/4 and 8/4 straight-grain for moldings, 4/4 with decent figure for sides, and 4/4 ribbon-stripe for drawer fronts that all match in color is darn hard if not impossible and this was the basis for these questions albeit a little on the extreme end from typical applications :-)

Anyway, thanks for the tips and clarification. I do believe that dye concentration is a big knob for dialing in color and one that is often over-looked.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n113/jficke/Gratz/gratz_final.jpg

[Ron Brese]

Caleb,

I have attached a picture of a curly maple corner cupboard that I believe has
a color similar to what you are asking about. If this looks about right let me know and I will post the recipe.

Ron Brese

[Jim Becker]

Joel, you're absolutely correct that my statement was a pretty big generalization and simplification. I usually throw it out simply to help folks become more aware of how important choosing material is relative to the final results. (Mostly for the benefit of the people who are new to woodworking who read these threads) And your comments (and wonderful work) actually reinforce this because you have to do a lot of work to come up with appropriate material when you componentize a project like you show. Although a perfect match for color isn't necessarily possible when a lot of material is involved--unless maybe you have posession of the whole tree to pick and choose from--if you can at least minimize the differences, so much the better when it comes to finishing time. Tough choices sometimes!

[Caleb Dietrich]

That looks nice Ron. I think I have decided on the dye and concentration. It's the rest of the process that is up in the air. Did you use a glaze? Seems like it would be foolish not to take Jeff's advice to use one. When trying dyes it was the vivid/artificial characteristic he mentioned that turned me off from some. It will be interesting to see what the glazes do to the other dyes I have as well as the Dark vintage Maple color I have chosen.
I'd be interested to know the process you used on the corner cab.

[Martin Shupe]

Caleb,

I have attached a picture of a curly maple corner cupboard that I believe has
a color similar to what you are asking about. If this looks about right let me know and I will post the recipe.

Ron Brese

Ron, I don't care if Caleb wants it or not, please post your recipe for me (and everyone else who wants it.):D

Just kidding Cableb.

Nice cabinet, Ron, very nice.

[John Hain]

That looks nice Ron. I think I have decided on the dye and concentration. It's the rest of the process that is up in the air. Did you use a glaze? Seems like it would be foolish not to take Jeff's advice to use one. When trying dyes it was the vivid/artificial characteristic he mentioned that turned me off from some. It will be interesting to see what the glazes do to the other dyes I have as well as the Dark vintage Maple color I have chosen.
I'd be interested to know the process you used on the corner cab.

I didn't catch if you sprayed or not, but mild tinting is easily done by toning the project with dyes. You could use Shellac or just tint the final finish.

[Ron Brese]

Caleb,

I sanded everthing to 220 grit. I applied Honey Amber waterbase dye. I then
applied a wipe on wipe off coat of dark garnet shellac. I then applied a Sherwin Williams Fruitwood pigmented stain. I sprayed 2 coats of super blond shellac and after that cured I sanded with 320 grit sandpaper and then rubbed it down with grey scotchbrite pad. I then applied a glaze of the S.W. fruitwood and after allowing ample drying time I sprayed 2 coats of Target waterborne lacquer. Did the rubout and I was done. It's a lot of steps and work but I think the look is worth it.

Ron

[Jim Becker]

The import of what Ron just posted is that very often a great finish is not just one or two steps, but a lot of them. When you are dealing with coloration, you're actually working on individual "problems/issues/accommodations" with each step. Adjusting the color of a piece with a dye may only be to prepare it for a different result when a subsequent coloring agent is used in a step farther on a particular project. On another project, it may be the only coloration step...