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Paul Downes
03-16-2007, 12:28 AM
Howdy all. I have an electrical problem that escapes my intellect. My outdoor wood stove stoped working. The damper stoped opening. I went through some of the wiring and discoverd that at the back of the stove at the shut-off switch I have 50volts AC between the common and hot wire and 110 between the ground and hot. ??? The switch controls power to a therm-o-disc thermostat with adjustable set points, which in turn activates a selenoid to open the damper. I'm guessing that I have a short in the wiring somewhere. Any ideas?

Ryan Myers
03-16-2007, 9:36 AM
Paul, was your reading on the line side of the switch with it shut off? Based on the information provided, it sounds like you have an open nuetral problem. Basically the white/common has become loose or broken somewhere between the switch and the source.

If the power comes straight from your panel, go through and check all screws on the nuetral bar for tightness. This tends to be a very common problem place. Thoroughly check any splices. Wirenuts tend to fail if they weren't properly twisted when they are tucked back into a j-box. Another very common failure is when wires are stabbed into the back of outlets rather than under the screws on the side. They shouldn't even make those dumb little quick wire terminals on receptacles.

With the power off, You can disconnect both ends of the wire and connect the white and black together on one end. Then check the other end for continuity. If it the white is unbroken it will read continuity.

Paul Downes
03-16-2007, 9:58 AM
Yeh, I am afraid that might be the problem. I have been going backward through the circuit checking for continuity where its not supposed to be. I am afraid there might be a break underground. This would suck. I ran the wires in plastic conduit to NOT have that problem. I haven't got that far into it yet, I'm at work now, but the other possibility is that the rat I've been trying to kill in my barn is a smart sabetour. Or maybe he committed suicide on my wiring. Thanks for the neutral bar idea, that is an easy check. All this while my Father-in-law is dying up North and the wife is running back and forth 500 miles(one way) to be with him. The stress levels have definately gotten higher around home. It crossed my mind that with the recent thaw and rains that water intrusion may be causeing the short?

Jim O'Dell
03-16-2007, 10:27 AM
My guess is that it's not water intrusion. I'd think that would pop a breaker. Maybe not. My thoughts is that it is a broken wire at a connection. I had that happen in the shop. One outlet wouldn't power my test light. Check it with a volt meter, and I had power. :confused: Finally looked to see how much voltage I had on it. It was 50 or maybe less. Traced the wire to the junction box in the ceiling, and found a broken wire at a wirenut. Guess it happened when I twisted them together. It made a little contact, or maybe it was arcing to the broken wire to give some voltage, just not the specic amount the line needed. Hopefully your solution will be as easy.
Sorry to hear about your FIL. Let your wife know the family in our thoughts and prayers. Jim

Paul Downes
03-16-2007, 5:51 PM
I finaly figured it out. I actually had 2 problems. The selenoid was bad and I also had a loose wire in a wire nut @ the thermostat. I hate it when 2 things go bad at the same time. It sure causes one angst in the trouble shooting process. I'll be at it for a while tonight rewireing everything I pulled apart and then tomorrow of to a dealer to get a new selenoid. Thank's for the help. I did use some of the suggestions checking things out. I am a gear head not an electrician, so its always a comedy when I try to use the 'gears' to figure out that weird electrical stuff.:D

Ryan Myers
03-16-2007, 8:06 PM
Sorry to hear about your FIL. Seems like when it rains it pours sometimes.

I understand the frustration as my mother is currently undergoing chemotherapy for breast cancer. Thankfully she caught it early enough that she has a very good survival outlook. All this after quad heart bypass surgery just a few years ago at the young age of 50. A good friend of mine just found out last summer that his kidneys suddnely failed and now he is need of a transplant at the age of 30. Then my sister was in a car accident yesterday. Thankfully she is fine.

Glad to hear you got your problem fixed. Just curious but what kind of wire did you put in that conduit that is buried? Reason I ask is I've been starting to see alot of failures with THHN that was installed in conduit buried. This is primarily because it sits submersed in water which eventually breaks down the jacket. It technicaly is not rated for that anyways but everybody used it because its what was readily available. The newer THHN is dual rated as THWN which is supposed to be water resistant. I'm still sceptical. Hopefully you used some UF cable.

I'll stick to electrical work thanks, I hate working on cars:D

David G Baker
03-16-2007, 11:11 PM
I finaly figured it out. I actually had 2 problems. The selenoid was bad and I also had a loose wire in a wire nut @ the thermostat. I hate it when 2 things go bad at the same time. It sure causes one angst in the trouble shooting process. I'll be at it for a while tonight rewireing everything I pulled apart and then tomorrow of to a dealer to get a new selenoid. Thank's for the help. I did use some of the suggestions checking things out. I am a gear head not an electrician, so its always a comedy when I try to use the 'gears' to figure out that weird electrical stuff.:D
Paul,
I use plumbing mental images when doing electrical work. It even works in some electronic projects I have done.
Glad you got your problem figured out.
David B

Paul Downes
03-18-2007, 11:35 PM
Actually I jumped the gun on fixing the problem. I even had an electrician friend come over and we thought we determined the cause of the problem. So I bought a new selenoid and re-connected the wireing and low and behold, it still wouldn't work. I am now in the process of jumping the different wire runs to find the short.
I do believe I installed THHN in the plastic conduit underground. I don't know if I have had any water intrusion in that yet. I did run the wire separate from the PEX tube run. It looks like I have a break either at the back of the stove or in the door(stranded wire), or against the stove. When I wire nutted the power direct with the switches removed I have a dead short. (Blows the breaker). It's more of a aggravation than a puzzle. I wonder what the heat rateing of THHN wire is? The stove does get up too 190 deg. and has boiled over when the selenoid started acting goofy. (215 deg) I may just pull the stove leg out and replace it.
This is what you get with home engineered systems- a class on what not to do. I am still way ahead on money compared to buying a commercial stove. I would like to build a new stove/boiler some day and have been working on a better design. I helped a friend weld up a stove, but can see lots of room for improvement over the earlier design. I did work for a number of years as a process engineer- basicly working the bugs out of existing equipment. It was never boring, until we got things running smoothly. The outdoor wood stove market is rife with bad designs, outright lies and lots of sales pitches. The most efficient designs are wood gasification stoves. These are rather tempermental from what I've heard from costomers. It's actually a complicated process to get maximun heat trasfer and keep the fire/combustion at high temps.
Neccessity is the mother of invention. Maybe some day............

Paul Downes
03-19-2007, 8:29 PM
Finaly figured it out. The thermostat was shorted out. I guess that when the selenoid went bad it caused the thermostat to burn up.

When I got home from work today The wife tells me the phones were not working. I guess it pours when it rains. I found the outside jack was ok, but the whole house was dead. Pulled in some new cat5 cable and found that when the sink leaked over the cable some water got into the phone wires........sheesh what a deal. Maybe tomorrow I'll get the durn stove working.