Ripping on european combination machines

[Anil Kalagatla]

I was hoping that someone who went from a high end cabinet saw to a euro combination machine can answer this. I'm currently looking at getting one of these (specifically looking at the Rojek KPS 300v) and noticed that most of the literature (and videos) seem to focus on the cross cutting aspects of these saw. How good are they with respct to ripping (they definitely have smaller rip capacity than the american cabinet saws with extension)? But I was wondering how accurate and safe they were (again, I'm thinking of Robland X-31, Rojek 300V and Hammer c3-31 etc).

Also, in general, are these machines appropriate for someone who's more focused on furniture making in general than being focused on cabinet making? f course, as part of fine furniture, I certainly expect do a significant amount of case work as well.

Thanks in advance for any advice or thoughts on this matter.

regards,
Anil

PS: I'm specifically referring to non-format style combo machines (like the X31 and KPS 300V above).

[Cary Swoveland]

I was hoping that someone who went from a high end cabinet saw to a euro combination machine can answer this. I'm currently looking at getting one of these (specifically looking at the Rojek KPS 300v) and noticed that most of the literature (and videos) seem to focus on the cross cutting aspects of these saw. How good are they with respct to ripping (they definitely have smaller rip capacity than the american cabinet saws with extension)? But I was wondering how accurate and safe they were (again, I'm thinking of Robland X-31, Rojek 300V and Hammer c3-31 etc).

Also, in general, are these machines appropriate for someone who's more focused on furniture making in general than being focused on cabinet making? f course, as part of fine furniture, I certainly expect do a significant amount of case work as well.

Thanks in advance for any advice or thoughts on this matter.

regards,
Anil
Anil,

I can't offer advice as someone has gone from a cabinet saw to a combo machine, but I can as someone who has gone the other way. I used to have a Minimax CU300 Smart. I recently replaced it with a Sawstop, 8" jointer, 15" planer and Festool Domino (on order). I already was cutting down large sheet goods with Festools. (OK, I owned a table saw once, so I guess I qualify as someone who has switched to a combo.)

You are right, you cannot use the rip fence for wide rips on combo machines. There is a simple reason for this: these machines are designed for you to use the slider for all but narrow rips. The length of the slider is obviously important. There are two slider lengths available on the combo machines you might consider: roughly 5.5' and 8.5'. The latter is popular with cabinetmakers, as the machine can be used to cut a 4x8 sheet in both directions. The only time you need the rip fence is when the width of the cut is too small to provide adequate purchase against the cross-cut fence, and thereby ensure a square cut using the slider. For any cuts wider than about 10" you should be able to use the slider and get a very square cut.

The quality of cuts using the rip fence is no different than those on table saws, with one exception. On most combos, the right side of the slider is very close to the blade. Most users set the slider a hair higher than the table, to reduce friction. If you do that, and are ripping a very narrow board, that just barely sits on the slider, the board could be tilted a bit when you make the cut.

You asked about safety. I would think that sliding table saws are safer than conventional table saws. That's because you don't have to get your hands as close to the blade, and there's less chance of kickbacks on crosscuts, especially if you clamp down the material before the cut, an option not available on table saws.

You ask whether these machines are suitable for general furniture making, as opposed to cabinet making. That is a very good question. It is a question I asked myself. My conclusion was "no", but I'm sure others would disagree.

I recently set out my reasoning in another thread: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=544931#poststop

Cary

[Chris Barton]

I have an X31 and regularly rip materials on it with some being as much as 24" wide. That said, I don't use it to rip plywood or other sheet goods very often. Not because it won't do it but, rather because it is safer and easier to use my Festool AT55e plunge saw for that task. I was just down in my basement workshop doing some cabinet work with 3/4" melamine. A 4x8' sheet of that stuff weighs about 100lbs. Lifting and pushing around a sheet is far more effort and risk than pushing a 10lbs saw over the sheet and with the AT55e I get accuracy beyond a table or format saw.

My X31 has been a great tool and I use it regularly. I don't do very much sheet good work so I can say from experience that if set up properly, it provides accuracy in hardwoods that will match any other machine available. Combos take some getting used to and you probably should go see one being used before you buy. The best combo on earth will not make anyone a great woodworker but, dollar for dollar no other option provides a better return on investment. To get the most out of a combo you have to carefully plan your work.

[Anil Kalagatla]

Cary and Chris:

Thanks for your thoughtful and thought provoking (for me) responses. Before I caught the combo bug, I was thinking about getting a PM2000 with an extension (and stick the router in it). I have space restrictions (as my shop is a 18x18 garage), hence the need to consolidate my machines.

Chris: I'd have loved to go and check out these machines in person, but being in the Seattle area, haven't had much of a chance to do that.

I do have a Festool circular saw (but no MFT, due to space constraints), so my choices are:

- Get the PM2000 with router lift and save space by selling my router table and use the circular saw for cross cutting panels (I have done this before, but I'm not too fond of it: it's a pain to get accurate repeatable cuts). I aleady have an 8" jointer and a lunchbox planer, so I will be mostly set. May be add the Festool domino when it comes out as well.
- Get the combination machine with its obvious advantages; but I'm not sure about its ripping capablities and the ability to do fine furniture (which will require ripping narrow, short pieces as well as large awkward pieces). Obviously, it's also significantly more expensive (but by now, I've convinced myself to accept the expense :-)

I'd appreciate any more thoughts on this matter.

Thanks
Anil

[Cary Swoveland]

...I do have a Festool circular saw (but no MFT, due to space constraints)...

I'd appreciate any more thoughts on this matter...
Just one, Anil. If you have a big, traditional workbench, which consumes a lot of space, consider whether you might be better off with a Festool MFT. I had a very nice traditional bench and the larger MFT. I found I was mainly using the MFT, so I sold the workbench and converted the MFT to a custom, two-meter long MFT. Festool sells the needed 2m front and rear rails and perforated tops. The long rails replaced the shorter rails on my MFT. You can use the original MFT legs, but I chose to use Noden's "Adust-A-Bench" (height-adjustable) legs.

The new MFT works great with other Festools and is great for assembly (with the bench lowered).

I've been extremely happy with this setup, except when using hand planes and chisels. It's just not solid enough for that. I built a small (about 60"' x 12") traditional bench against a wall for hand work.

Cary

[Matthew Dworman]

Hi Anil,
I upgraded from a Delta unisaw with a 51" Rip capacity to a Felder CF731P with a 2 meter slider and I believe a 31" rip fence capacity. I honestly could not be happier. Upgrading to this machine has changed the way I work such that my machine work gets done much faster and is much more accurate. The rip fences on almost all of the european machines is made from an aluminum extrusion - very similar to the Unifence on the Delta unisaw. Usually this fence doubles as the fence for the jointer and is moved back and forth for one operation or the other. As a furnituremaker, I use solid timbers about 90 times more than I use plywood, so haveing an 8'+ slider is not a big deal for me at all. When I do use plywood, I almost never use lenghts greater than 6' for anything anyway, so I can simply crosscut it first and then use the slider to rip it as well. There are many ways to use the slider to rip solid timber and again here the beauty is the accuracy. I certainly do use the rip fence quite a bit as well, and do not have any issues here - 31" is more than I have ever needed - again because of the slider, I can rip any width on the other side of the blade as long as it is less than 2 meters long. The slider is the "Ultimate miter guage" and far surpasses any crosscut sled you can create for a cabinet saw. Having use of it for not only the saw, but also for the router/shaper is truly an amazing benefit as well. My saw is an older model, so it is unable to accept a stacked dado set. But I can use the router spindle in the shaper to cut dados, and I have a great rabbet set for the shaper that can cut rabets, but also can cut a tennon (both cheeks and shoulders) in a single pass (you use the slider for this). When I was a beginning woodworker, I read many articles and posts about Shaper vs. Router - leaving to to wonder why I would ever want a shaper. No that I have one, I can't remember how I worked without it. Since mine has a high speed router spinde as well, I get the best of both worlds along with a sliding table.
Good luck,
Matthew

[Frank Snyder]

Anil,

I was in your shoes about a year ago considering combos/sliders vs. traditional woodworking tools. I spoke to several combo/slider owners to better understand how they work, and I was surprised that I discovered a few woodworkers who went from combo/sliders back to traditional woodworking tools. It really depends on how you work, what you plan making, and how much you want to spend. In the end, I realized that I was more comfortable using a table saw and separate machines.

I went all Powermatic and I have the PM2000 which IMO is an outstanding table saw. The riving knife prevents kickback, dust collection is the best I've seen and it's just a pleasure to use. Like yourself, I also use the Festool guide rail and saw system to process sheet goods and it is so much easier to take the tool to your work, rather than your work to the tool.

While I think the Euro slider/combos possess a lot of mystique and appeal, I personally don't think they are all that practical. Having to raise and lower the planer beds between use, switch DC connections, and have to plan my work around the limitations of the combo machine would annoy me after a while.

Do as much investigating as you can before you decide. I'm sure the sales reps from Felder, Minimax or Rojek can put you in touch with one of their customers local to you.

Good luck!

Frank

[Chris Barton]

While I'm not sure what limitations inherent to european combos might exist I can show you one of the projects I made with mine:

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=37535&highlight=card+table

I can go from function to function on mine, including DC changes in less than 1 minute. When you describe a combo machine to most who haven't experienced one they think of a shopsmith. Trust me, a new X31 at around $6K is impossible to beat with individual machines. Each function has a 3 hp motor, plenty of heft and mass to be precise and quality of build that is generally much better than non-commercial stand alone units.

[Todd Solomon]

How good are they with respct to ripping (they definitely have smaller rip capacity than the american cabinet saws with extension)? But I was wondering how accurate and safe they were (again, I'm thinking of Robland X-31, Rojek 300V and Hammer c3-31 etc).

Also, in general, are these machines appropriate for someone who's more focused on furniture making in general than being focused on cabinet making? f course, as part of fine furniture, I certainly expect do a significant amount of case work as well.

Thanks in advance for any advice or thoughts on this matter.

regards,
Anil

PS: I'm specifically referring to non-format style combo machines (like the X31 and KPS 300V above).

Hi Anil,

I'm not as familiar with Rojek as I am the Felder, Hammer and Mini Max machines, but I think much would apply to the Rojek.

Advantages to ripping on a euro slider:
1. Riving knife. I have never, ever had kick-back on my sliders in the 5 years that I've used them. The riving knife virtually eliminates the possibility, if properly adjusted.
2. High/low fence: Euro saws come with rip fences that can be flipped so that the top of the fence is very low (about .2" or so). This allows you to rip narrow widths, and allows room for your pushstick, often while using a blade guard.
3. Parallel cutting jig- Allows you to rip on the slider. This is an option for Felders. For MMs, you can make your own out of an Incra fence, or other ways.
4. Blade guards- Attach to the riving knife, and don't get in the way, so you won't be inclined to remove them. Optional overhead guard on some machines. My Felder K700S Plus has a giant clear window in the overhead guard, so you can see what you're cutting.
5. "Shortie fence"- You can slide the fence towards the front of the saw, so that it ends just as the cut begins, preventing the wood from being pinched between the fence and blade.
6. Ripping shoe and clamp- This is what Wayne referred to. You can straight-line rip rough stock safely on the slider, using these (shown in Felder and MM videos- kind of hard to describe).

If you go with a combo saw/shaper and a combo jointer/planer, rather than a full combo, you can get 50 inch rip capacity on most euro machines.

And they are terrific for furniture making. Mark Duginske wrote an article about euro sliders, and is posted in the Files section, on the Felder Owner's Group. If you join the group, you can read the article. It's a really well-balanced discussion on euro sliders Vs. traditional cabinet saws.

Felder Owner's Group:
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/felder-woodworking/files/

-Todd

[Anil Kalagatla]

Chris: That's really a wonderfully crafted card table! Though looking at your skill level, I have a feeling you will generate quality work on most machines :-)


Todd: Thanks for your response. Just a couple of notes/questions:
- I think some of the latest cabinet saws are now (finally) coming with true riving knives (that was another reason for considering the PM2000)
- I've seen various posts where the sliding table on Felder and MM saws had been used for ripping. But does that work for a non-format style slider like Rojek or X31? I ask because, these don;t have a slider that's very close to the blade; instead they have a sliding table that rides about 6 inches from the blade.

The Rojek does have the overhead guard with above blade dust collection (actually it has many other really great features: scoring blade, router adaptor for the shaper at 10K rpm etc).

Still indecisive....
Anil

[Steven Wilson]

I have no problems ripping with my combo using the rip fence. I find that crosscuting on an American style cabinet saw is only good up to about 8", after that it gets sloppy (even with cutoff sleds). For me, crosscuting and panel sizing (any panel, not just plywood but glueup's too) is the most important task to be accurate at, and a slider excels at that task. If I can't make an accurate rip I can always turn the wood sideways and run it through the planer. Having said that, with a slider you can always take a piece of MDF to make a ripping sled and then you're very accurate. Just square up the MDF (easy on a slider since you're good to .003 in 8') and then place your piece of wood against it on your sled. If you know the width of the MDF you then can subtract that from the width listed on the carrige and you now have your ripping width setup. Make everything sit in the sled, clamp the wood down, pass through the blade and you have a fully supported, hands off, no injury possible, rip cut.

[Todd Solomon]

Todd: Thanks for your response. Just a couple of notes/questions:
- I think some of the latest cabinet saws are now (finally) coming with true riving knives (that was another reason for considering the PM2000)
- I've seen various posts where the sliding table on Felder and MM saws had been used for ripping. But does that work for a non-format style slider like Rojek or X31? I ask because, these don;t have a slider that's very close to the blade; instead they have a sliding table that rides about 6 inches from the blade.

The Rojek does have the overhead guard with above blade dust collection (actually it has many other really great features: scoring blade, router adaptor for the shaper at 10K rpm etc).

Still indecisive....
Anil

Anil,

I too have been impressed by the new Powermatic, some of the Grizzlies, and of course the Sawstop, for adding the riving knives to their machines. It's good that these companies are innovating.

I don't think ripping using a parallel cutting jig on a non-format slider would be as advantageous, but perhaps you could make some type of ripping sled for the Rojek, similar to what Steve mentioned.

Todd

[Jim Becker]

...you cannot use the rip fence for wide rips on combo machines. There is a simple reason for this: these machines are designed for you to use the slider for all but narrow rips..
I find this puzzling. What kept you from doing wider rips outside of removing your jointer fence? The CU300 has a 36" rip capacity to the right of the blade with the fence. It's rare to need more than that.

-----

Anil, I recently went from a typical cabinet saw (Jet) to a sliding saw. (Yes, a little different than the combos you are looking at, but the adaptation to saw cutting with a combo slider isn't dissimilar to going to "just" a sliding saw) Given I largely work with solid stock, it was important to me to have the longer wagon so I could straight-line lumber more than 5', but that was a personal decision. There are many folks who find that using the shorter sliders for cross cutting and the traditional rip fence for...well...ripping...works out just fine. Frankly, the type of projects you work with is part of the decision on how you pick a machine.

The biggest change for me has been learning to use the sliding wagon to its best advantage for more and more things and that is holding the material fast as you pass through the cut. The quality of cut is very noticably better when using the slider than it is when pushing the material through a cut using a fence or traditional miter guage. The material does NOT move out of the plane of the cut even a "proverbial hair". A cabinetmaker friend of mine stopped by yesterday to drop of a sheet of cherry veener sheet stock I need for a project and when I showed him the quality of cut, he was bowled over. It was actually cleaner and smoother than I could ever get with a traditional cut followed by a slow pass on the jointer. Only a hand plane would produce a finer surface, IMHO. The net of this is that the little extra time setting up for the cut (positioning stock and clamping) is offset by the lack of having to do more work after the cut...and it may even take less time in the long run.

I also like the safety factor of a sliding saw arrangement (combo or not)...when you are using the sliding wagon, even for small parts clamped to it...your hands are never near the blade.

But, these machines are not for everyone. Cary points out that he found that "traditional" machines are a better fit for how he likes to work. That's the bottom line...and what you need to consider most is how you like to work. Combos always have some limits. (as do stand alone tools) Will they "limit" you, or will they fit your routine?

[Steve Rowe]

I was hoping that someone who went from a high end cabinet saw to a euro combination machine can answer this. I'm currently looking at getting one of these (specifically looking at the Rojek KPS 300v) and noticed that most of the literature (and videos) seem to focus on the cross cutting aspects of these saw. How good are they with respct to ripping (they definitely have smaller rip capacity than the american cabinet saws with extension)? But I was wondering how accurate and safe they were (again, I'm thinking of Robland X-31, Rojek 300V and Hammer c3-31 etc).

Also, in general, are these machines appropriate for someone who's more focused on furniture making in general than being focused on cabinet making? f course, as part of fine furniture, I certainly expect do a significant amount of case work as well.

Thanks in advance for any advice or thoughts on this matter.

regards,
Anil

PS: I'm specifically referring to non-format style combo machines (like the X31 and KPS 300V above).

I upgraded to a Felder CF741SP from a Delta Unisaw with 52" Unifence and I primarily build furniture. No regrets here - I can't recall ever using the large rip capacity of the Delta and so didn't miss it. The slider is a joy to use and perfect for furniture both hardwoods and sheet goods. I usually rip using the slider and if I wanted to, could rip something as wide as 78" and almost 9 feet long. I am not familiar with the Rojek even though the distributor is about 75 miles from where I live.

Some folks like the full combo and others like the separates. The only thing I wish I had done differently is gone with the separate saw/shaper combo and jointer/planer combo. Todd gave some good advice.

Steve

[Jay Brewer]

Hi Anil, I bought my slider because of all the sheet stock I was going through at the time, as luck would have it, almost every project that comes through the door is solid work. In one year I have straight lined, ripped and crosscut around 3000 brd feet of mostly Hard Maple, and I can tell you there is no difference from using the rip fence on a slider or a cabinet saw, just where you stand in different. (Walking around the slider to adjust the fence can be a pain) Using the rip fence isnt as safe as using the slider, but is still safer then a cabinet saw because your not standing in front of the blade, and most sliders actually come with a decent blade guard. I kept my cabinet saw just for ripping, after getting used to the slider for one month, I sold the cabinet saw.

[Matthew Dworman]

The only thing I wish I had done differently is gone with the separate saw/shaper combo and jointer/planer combo.
Steve

Steve - you can separate the 2 units.... check out the FOG (Felder Owners Group)for some info on it. there is a link in one of the posts above...

[Anil Kalagatla]

Steve:

This sounds like a very ingenious solution! May I ask what combo you have (0.003" per 8' is amazing)?

Thanks,
Anil


I have no problems ripping with my combo using the rip fence. I find that crosscuting on an American style cabinet saw is only good up to about 8", after that it gets sloppy (even with cutoff sleds). For me, crosscuting and panel sizing (any panel, not just plywood but glueup's too) is the most important task to be accurate at, and a slider excels at that task. If I can't make an accurate rip I can always turn the wood sideways and run it through the planer. Having said that, with a slider you can always take a piece of MDF to make a ripping sled and then you're very accurate. Just square up the MDF (easy on a slider since you're good to .003 in 8') and then place your piece of wood against it on your sled. If you know the width of the MDF you then can subtract that from the width listed on the carrige and you now have your ripping width setup. Make everything sit in the sled, clamp the wood down, pass through the blade and you have a fully supported, hands off, no injury possible, rip cut.

[Steve Rowe]

Steve - you can separate the 2 units.... check out the FOG (Felder Owners Group)for some info on it. there is a link in one of the posts above...

Matt - I have the variable speed option on my machine and with only one VFD, I suspect this would quickly become very costly. Thanks for the thought.
Steve

[Jim Becker]

This sounds like a very ingenious solution! May I ask what combo you have (0.003" per 8' is amazing)?

Honestly, this should be true of any quality slider where the material is clamped down. The only deviation in the cut is from blade runout at that point.

[Anil Kalagatla]

Jim:

Thanks for your notes. I think I'm definitely beginning to understand the verstaility of the sliders (well, I've been doing a lot of research and have been reading a lot about it, but I'm getting it now) and clearly one is only limited by one's imagination with these machines.

One thing I'm seeing though is that most of the feedback is from the owners of the higher-end sliders (except for the X-31 which is a great machine, but probably not in the class of Felder and MM).

At this point, I feel like if I'm going to get a euro-machine, may be I should get the higher end ones (once I'm able to afford them) and in the meanwhile get something like PM2000 (which is obviously no slouch); this way I would have made no major changes to my current style and when I'm ready (i.e., I have enough money and space!) I will go for the bigger guns.

At least that's what I'm feeling at this moment, though I've been leaning towrads both the extremes all day :-) At this point, I think I have enough opinions and informative comments from the creekers to make a decision based on my working style and needs (again, being a long-time lurker on this forum, I'm not surprised at amount of generous and informative advice offered so far). I just need to figure out what the decision is :-)

Anil



Anil, I recently went from a typical cabinet saw (Jet) to a sliding saw. (Yes, a little different than the combos you are looking at, but the adaptation to saw cutting with a combo slider isn't dissimilar to going to "just" a sliding saw) Given I largely work with solid stock, it was important to me to have the longer wagon so I could straight-line lumber more than 5', but that was a personal decision. There are many folks who find that using the shorter sliders for cross cutting and the traditional rip fence for...well...ripping...works out just fine. Frankly, the type of projects you work with is part of the decision on how you pick a machine.

The biggest change for me has been learning to use the sliding wagon to its best advantage for more and more things and that is holding the material fast as you pass through the cut. The quality of cut is very noticably better when using the slider than it is when pushing the material through a cut using a fence or traditional miter guage. The material does NOT move out of the plane of the cut even a "proverbial hair". A cabinetmaker friend of mine stopped by yesterday to drop of a sheet of cherry veener sheet stock I need for a project and when I showed him the quality of cut, he was bowled over. It was actually cleaner and smoother than I could ever get with a traditional cut followed by a slow pass on the jointer. Only a hand plane would produce a finer surface, IMHO. The net of this is that the little extra time setting up for the cut (positioning stock and clamping) is offset by the lack of having to do more work after the cut...and it may even take less time in the long run.

I also like the safety factor of a sliding saw arrangement (combo or not)...when you are using the sliding wagon, even for small parts clamped to it...your hands are never near the blade.

But, these machines are not for everyone. Cary points out that he found that "traditional" machines are a better fit for how he likes to work. That's the bottom line...and what you need to consider most is how you like to work. Combos always have some limits. (as do stand alone tools) Will they "limit" you, or will they fit your routine?

[Wayne Watling]

Hi Anil,

Just in case you haven't come across this post in your research I'll post the link to a rip setup on the Tecnomax (Minimax) 410 Elite combo http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=508423&postcount=56

This combo has a rip fence capacity of 43" but I'd tend to use the slider for ripping for all but very narrow pieces.

Best of luck,
Wayne

[Cary Swoveland]

I find this puzzling. What kept you from doing wider rips outside of removing your jointer fence? The CU300 has a 36" rip capacity to the right of the blade with the fence. It's rare to need more than that...
Jim,

I was not very clear. What I meant was simply that a slider's the rip capacity doesn't have to be as large as that of a conventional table saw. With the latter, you might want to be able to accomodate a 48" rip, whereas with the former you would use the slider and crosscut fence for those operations (provided the length of the cut does not exceed the slider's range).

Cary

[Jeff Wright]

I have a MiniMax 410 Elite. I just milled some maple to 8/4, over six feet long. I then put it on the slider and ripped it to 4" wide in prep for making it into a workbench top edge piece. I have come to use my caliper as a set up and measuring tool and strive to work to 1/64ths accuracy. The rip on this piece was off less than a 1/32 from one end to the other. And I am only a newbie at using this great machine. I came no where near the blade as the cut was made. As for general everyday ripping (e.g., styles and rails), I am finding that I actually like using the band saw to rip . . . . even safer and doesn't eat up as much of the wood as a 10 or 12 inch saw blade. I too considered going with PowerMatics, but felt the combo would keep me happier longer, plus give me more room in my 18.5 x 24 workshop that shares a hot water heater and washer/dryer. More work is both furniture and cabinet making.

[Steven Wilson]

Steve:

This sounds like a very ingenious solution! May I ask what combo you have (0.003" per 8' is amazing)?

Thanks,
Anil
Just a Minimax CU350 with an 8.5' slider. Just run the 5 sided cut and measure the slop you should be able to be off around .003" with roughly 2'x2' square MDF. Where the setup really shows is when you go to glue up and clamp your project together. Since I made the switch from a PM66 I notice I need less clamps, less pressure, and everything comes together simply - the direct result of having a very square setup.

[lou sansone]

I have had all type of traditional cabinet saws.. unisaw, rt-40 beast with a riving knife, oliver 260 d with dual 16" blades and riving knives. I now have the tecnomax s350ws with the 8.5' slider. great machine and much better than any of those other table saws. I worried about ripping on the slider and found it to be a non issue. A good quality slider is just a world of difference from the cabinet saw. I do all solid wood furniture and would never go back to a traditional saw. Don't waste you money.

lou

[Paul Canaris]

The biggest difference I find is accounting for the height offset from the slider to the TS cast iron top. This can be anywhere’s from a few thou which wont matter to quite a bit which will. This height offset is done to allow sheets of plywood, which ride on the slider to hover slightly above the TS cast iron surface preventing drag. When ripping, you need to deal with this offset, as your first cut will almost always be on both the TS surface and the slider surface creating an angled cut. I do two things to deal with this. First I always try to rip with the slider when the material is wide enough to do so. Secondly when I need to use the rip fence, I make the first rip cut about 1/16 of an inch wider then needed, and then rip again to exact width. This will allow the board to ride only on the TS surface for the second cut so there is no offset angle. Hope this was clear.:D

[Anil Kalagatla]

I wanted to provide an update on this: in what I think is a fit of insanity, I've decided I will buy a used MM CU300 Smart. It's insane because of how far outside my initial budget I am now, but knowing myself (and the way I kept upgrading my audio equipment until I was happy), I have a feeling I end up buying something like this anyway; I will probably save by directly buying something like this!

I will be driving to Portland over the weekend to go and check this out before I commit 100%. I'm taking a Starret straight edge with me to do some basic flatness testing. I'd appreciate any pointers on what should I be looking for in a used CU300S (it's less than 3 years old and not heaviliy used).

Thanks again for everyone's help with this. While this will severely dent by wallet, I think I'd be much happier with this (assuming the machine is in great condition and I get it). FWIW, I will finance some of this by downscaling another expensive hobby of mine (mid to high end audio equipment: WW has taken my time away from it anyways)

Reading posts and articles by folks like Jim, Paul and Lou has been inspirational and I hope to grow into using the full potential of this tool.

Thanks again!
Anil

[Todd Solomon]

I wanted to provide an update on this: in what I think is a fit of insanity, I've decided I will buy a used MM CU300 Smart. It's insane because of how far outside my initial budget I am now, but knowing myself (and the way I kept upgrading my audio equipment until I was happy), I have a feeling I end up buying something like this anyway; I will probably save by directly buying something like this!

Anil

That's a wise decision, Anil. I remember when I bought my euro slider, a woodworker I know had just bought a Powermatic. He wanted a euro slider, but settled on a cabinet saw instead. He then added an Excalibur slider. Fast-forward 4 years later, he finally got his Felder saw/shaper. It's nice to cry once, and buy what you really want, up front.

Todd

[Jim Becker]

Congrats on checking out the combo, Anil. I think you'll be surprised at the precision of the machine and will want to take it home with you. And remember, while it's not inexpensive, you're getting a lot of machinery capability and capacity for each workstation that tends to cost big bucks with separates, too.