Fireplace Insert Issue

[Chris Padilla]

Anyone here have much experience with fireplace inserts?

My natural gas insert finally arrived after an 8 week (!) wait but the installers ran into a problem yesterday.

My unit is the Heat 'n Glow FB-IN and the problem is with the exhaust hook-up. There isn't sufficient height clearance above this 3" exhaust port for the SS flex pipe (supplied by the manufacturer) to fit. My installer called me at work to tell me the bad news and suggested some horrible ideas.

For starters, I had just spent many, many weekends and weeknights refacing my fireplace with flagstone (it had brick). It was my first time being a masonist and it wasn't fun but I learned a lot and it turned out all right.

My installer suggested removing the angle-iron support and grinding back some of the brick to fit the pipe in. I am not at all comfortable doing this all though I've heard of folks doing it. Keep in mind he describing all this to me over the phone...I hadn't seen exactly what the problem was.

Anyway, so I get home and check it out myself. It seems to me that an elbow could be used to assist with getting the exhaust hooked up and I couldn't figure out why my installer didn't suggest it...until I read the "Installer's Guide" that came with the unit. The manufacturer is pretty adamant about not putting additional fittings:

Warning: The 3' section of stainless steel flexible pipe must be attached directly to the exahust collar of the unit...No other venting systems or components may be used.

They go on to say that the vent system on this model CANNOT be terminated horizontally. Well, I would need to start off horizontally for about 4-5 inches before heading vertical.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Chris :(

[Brad Schafer]

I'm no expert, but my guess is that they're paranoid of someone using standard metalwork, which will decay quickly with all the moisture. Also, an L could seep moisture which could cause other pieces to rust.

If an L fits, I don't see why the flex wouldn't work.

I would be careful about using non-standard connections in light of insurance. God forbid something might happen and some pencil-neck claims improper installation ...


b

[Don Abele]

Chris, in regards to the horizontal piping: natural gas and propane produce water vapor during combustion. If the pipe is horizontal, condensation could form and drip back into the unit. For side venting units, the exhaust has to be installed at a slight downward angle to allow for drainage. While the flex will allow some horizontal adjustment, it's probably not enough to be a concern with condesation build-up. It really seems your only option is to modify the existing opening.

Be well,

Doc

[Chris Padilla]

Chris, in regards to the horizontal piping: natural gas and propane produce water vapor during combustion. If the pipe is horizontal, condensation could form and drip back into the unit. For side venting units, the exhaust has to be installed at a slight downward angle to allow for drainage. While the flex will allow some horizontal adjustment, it's probably not enough to be a concern with condesation build-up. It really seems your only option is to modify the existing opening.

Be well,

Doc

Doc,

Actually, both the inlet and exhaust are on top of the unit (connects to the SS flex pipes that head up the chimney) so if what you say is true, then any condensation will flow back into the unit. I dunno...I don't know much about these things.

The guy at the fireplace store where I bought my insert is going to call the company and ask them if it is all right to install an elbow (90º) to get the exahust hooked up.

If you look in the design forum "creating a strong seal" I posted a few pics of my fireplace. Because we added the stone, we brought out the face of the fireplace several inches and this causes the insert to not go in as far as expected and thus the exhaust port is under the overhang with only 3" of headroom. Even if they company approves the elbow, it will be a tight fit nonetheless. Worse comes to worse, I am sure I could get a sheet metal place to custom-make a SS elbow for me that would fit.

Thanks for reading and thanks for the reply...you, too, b! :)

Chris

[Don Abele]

Chris with the condesation in the piping I'm not certain. I just know from past installs of various types of heaters that any horizontal piping must be pitched down. Not sure why it seems there is no concern for vertical piping creating condensation.

I looked at the photos on the other topic and this came to mind:

Clamp a straight-edge across the entire face of the fireplace. Use a circular saw with a masonry blade and notch out the top wide enough to allow the unit to slide in further. You'll need to complete the cuts at the corners with a cold chisel and hammer.

Of course, if they can install the 90* elbow that would be better :D Just a thought that came to mind though.

Be well,

Doc

[Chris Padilla]

Chris with the condesation in the piping I'm not certain. I just know from past installs of various types of heaters that any horizontal piping must be pitched down. Not sure why it seems there is no concern for vertical piping creating condensation.

I looked at the photos on the other topic and this came to mind:

Clamp a straight-edge across the entire face of the fireplace. Use a circular saw with a masonry blade and notch out the top wide enough to allow the unit to slide in further. You'll need to complete the cuts at the corners with a cold chisel and hammer.

Of course, if they can install the 90* elbow that would be better :D Just a thought that came to mind though.

Be well,

Doc

During my morning jog, I was tyring to figure out all sorts of ways around this (gee, I hardly noticed my jog that morning!). The elbow is the easiest...even if I have to get a custom-made one.

One other is the one you mention: Install the surround for the insert, mark the face of the fireplace and use a circular saw with a diamond blade (have one of those...I used it for the hearth and various other pieces for the fireplace resurfacing) to cut whatever depth I need to inset the insert to clear space for the flex pipe. This might actually be more aesthetically pleasing to have the surround more or less flush with the face. I now have the masonry skill (kind of) to finish this appropriately...I think! :) Also, I'm a bit worried about the corners and the two sides that meet the floor...I can't get in there with my saw although I can get close. Still, the cold chisel, if I'm careful, will produce a more natural edge.

The other one is to chop the angle iron brace (lintel) inside the firebox that basically supports the brick facing and grind away at the brick there to make clearance for this 3" dia. flex pipe. Of course, I would need to have someone fabricate some metal braces to support the angle iron that I just cut. I have decent space on either side of the insert (~3-4") to do this and I could make wood templates to take to someone.

Sigh...let's hope the elbow works!!! I wanna get to some woodworking already!

Chris

[Don Abele]

:) Well Chris, I hope the elbow works out for you, and soon. I know how I chomp at the bit when I have a partially finished project just sitting waiting on something. If not, of the two, I think I'd go with insetting the insert. Best of luck and be sure to let us see it when it's all done.

Be well,

Doc

[Lee Schierer]

If you use the diamond blade to make the majority of the cuts, would some grit edged jigsaw blades and a jig saw be able to make the last inch or so of the cut?? You might go through 3-4 to make the cuts, but they aren't costly. Just an idea!

[Wes Bischel]

Chris,

If need be, excuse my ignorance - but could you drop the insert down? I'm not sure what yours looks like, but would it be possible to cut into the stone on the floor to make up the extra room. The inserts I'm familiar with have either vents, or a face plate that covers the bottom of the insert and firebox (ie the doors don't go to the bottom) so having the hearth stone overlap it wouldn't be a problem.

Like I said, it may be an ignorant idea, just food for thought.

Wes

[Chris Padilla]

Lee,

I was thinking to go look at a 4" mini-circular saw (or whatever size they are). I don't know if they offer diamond or masonry blades in that diameter but I bet they do. This would get me closer to the floor and two corners and, oh darn, I'd have to buy another tool! :p

Chris

[Chris Padilla]

Chris,

If need be, excuse my ignorance - but could you drop the insert down? I'm not sure what yours looks like, but would it be possible to cut into the stone on the floor to make up the extra room. The inserts I'm familiar with have either vents, or a face plate that covers the bottom of the insert and firebox (ie the doors don't go to the bottom) so having the hearth stone overlap it wouldn't be a problem.

Like I said, it may be an ignorant idea, just food for thought.

Wes

Wes,

You know what...I am going to take a closer look at the insert tonight and see if there is a way to lower it some. The funny part is that I can't seem to get away with NOT cutting into stone or brick or metal in some fashion! :(

My fireplace guy just called and told me this:

The factory said it has never been done [adding a horzontal piece or 90º elbow] and therefore didn't recommend it. Well, I guess they didn't flat-out say "No freakin' way!" so maybe that is a good sign?

So I ask him if they would do it and he pauses and kind of repeats what the factory said and then went on to say that I'd need, most likely, a custom elbow piece made out of SS. He said he will make a few phone calls and see what he can find. Hopefully I'll know more before the end of the week.

The installer of my insert was pretty cool. He refused to accept his money for the installation because he couldn't complete it although he did take the money for the cost of the insert. I thought that was very fair.

Now my wife (LOML? I can't, for the life of me, figure out what LOML stand for) is thinking it "would be nice" to have the insert flush with the fireplace! AAAHHHHHH!!!!! :eek:

Chris

[Jason Roehl]

Now my wife (LOML? I can't, for the life of me, figure out what LOML stand for) is thinking it "would be nice" to have the insert flush with the fireplace! AAAHHHHHH!!!!! :eek:

Chris


Love Of My Life

AKA (sometimes) SWMBO--She Who Must Be Obeyed

Both are fairly common acronyms in these parts.

[Chris Padilla]

Love Of My Life

AKA (sometimes) SWMBO--She Who Must Be Obeyed

Both are fairly common acronyms in these parts.

:D Okay, I got it...boy, never in a million year would I have figured out that one! I have a home theatre board I frequent and a popular one over there is WAF...Wife Acceptance Factor.

While we are at it, how about IIRC? Can't figure than one out.

Thanks, Jason!

Chris

[Jason Roehl]

While we are at it, how about IIRC? Can't figure than one out.

Thanks, Jason!

Chris

If I Recall Correctly

Another common one is In My Humble(Honest) Opinion

[Byron Trantham]

Chris, I have installed a gas fireplace made my Mendota (I think). It uses triple wall flex pipe for both the exhaust and input. Maybe this kind of pipe can be used in your application, presuming it fits the diameter. Here are a couple shots of my installation. Click on WWW to visit my Wev Site and click Projects then Fireplace to see what I did for installtion and construction. Good luck. I know you gotta be very frustrated. :mad:

[Chris Padilla]

Chris, I have installed a gas fireplace made my Mendota (I think). It uses triple wall flex pipe for both the exhaust and input. Maybe this kind of pipe can be used in your application, presuming it fits the diameter. Here are a couple shots of my installation. Click on WWW to visit my Wev Site and click Projects then Fireplace to see what I did for installtion and construction. Good luck. I know you gotta be very frustrated. :mad:

Byron,

Thanks for the pointer...great job on the insert! Really super. I wish mine was that easy! :( I'm still waiting for my fireplace guy to call me about the elbow I need...holidays are slowing down everything I'm sure.

Those pictures of yours illustrate my problem...the flex pipe closest to the front of the insert is where my problem is. I estimate that a little less than half of the 3" diameter exhaust port is out from under the overhang. The little bit more than half that is "covered" only has ~ 3 1/8" clearance above it. The flex pipe cannot bend/flex enough to allow a connection. The flex is flexible but it is on the stiff side of flexible. As you note, the wall of the flex has some decent thickness to it.

I think, in the end and regardless of whether or not the elbow works, I am going to cut the stone and inset the surround of the insert. One, it will look better and two, it will allow that much more (not sure how much at this point) of the exhaust port to be out from under the overhang.

Sigh....

Chris

[Chris Padilla]

Well, I did the cutting! The pics are self-explanatory:

http://members.roadfly.com/agent99/cut.jpg

http://members.roadfly.com/agent99/cut-insert.jpg

Now I have the clearance I need. I was able to inset the fireplace an additional 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" I estimate. Also, shimming the front so the insert is plumb gave me another skotch or two of clearance.

Time to get the fireplace installers back out to my house to finish the job. If I am lucky, this thing will be fired up just as spring approaches and I kill the pilot to the heater! :rolleyes:

[Don Abele]

Chris, excellent job. How did you finish the cuts at the bottom?

Be well,

Doc

[Chris Padilla]

I bought a RotoZip which included an head attachment for 3 1/2" discs. Then I bought the diamond blade disc and went to town! :D

The two bottom cuts cleaned up easily finishing up with a cold chisel.

The two corners were much tougher. I ended up visiting my local hardware store (again, like right after the RotoZip purchase) for some apporpriate grinding stones to fit into my Dremel to clean out the corners. I did as much slicing with the RotoZip and as much cold chiseling as I could stand and then pulled out the Dremel to clean it up.

Not too bad, reallly. It didn't have to be perfect since the surround will cover quite a bit of it.

[Byron Trantham]

Chris the cuts look like you used a laser beam to cut them :D Very nice job. I know you are going to be VERY glad you went through all this. Their just great to use.

[Brad Schafer]

chris - great work. how long did the cuts take to make? and can you still hear? :D


b

[Chris Padilla]

I have the Skil Magnesium worm-drive saw (powerful!) whose shoe I removed so that I could make a custom holder to tip it 90-degrees. I made the L-shaped holder out of some scrap 3/4" plywood I had laying around and some work at the drill press and a few pocket screws later, I had a solid holder to tip the saw on its side. A quick plunge with the saw blade made a nice zero-clearance plate. Believe it or not, this zero-clearance blade REALLY helped shoot the dust in only one direction. This helped LOML grab it with the shop vac pretty easily and kept the room pretty clean even though we had plastic over everything.

I think most of the work went into building up a stable platform to ride the saw along nicely although it did take a couple of hours to slowly cut all the lines.

I think my saw didn't like doing all that heavy cutting on its side because a few times it just stopped on me mid-cut. So I let it cool down (added more oil, too) and kept going. Eventually, I had to get a new diamond blade, too. At a ~1/2" cut per pass, it took 3-4 passes per line.

I'd say between resting (side cuts were very tough on my arm--you'll notice I only did 2 cuts there!), cooling down the saw/blade, adjusting the platform, and playoff football, it pretty much killed my Sunday. :cool:

Thanks for accolades, Everyone...I sure do appreciate it. I am about sick to death of working on this fireplace considering I thought I was done about 2 months ago but in the end when I look back on it, I can say that I did it all myself, save a ton of money, and have a sense of pride in a job well done!

[Chris Padilla]

Okay, the insert is finally 100% done!

[John Miliunas]

Nice job, Chris! Sounds like you went through a war to get it done, but you *won*! Good for you! :cool:

[Byron Trantham]

Chris, just too cool! It looks great but YOU know what it took to get there! Man you gotta be proud!

Your thread actually has caused me to think about the same thing and because of your experience, I hope I can get one that fits the first time. :confused: I've been meaning to take the measurements and go to my local FB dealer and see what I can get.

Ultimately, how did you vent it? Flex pipes up the flue? My fireplace has a damper which has to come out and I don't know the inside dimension of the flue. I hope two 4"+ pipe can fit.

Congratulations!

[Don Abele]

Nice job Chris, congrats...

Be well,

Doc

[Chris Padilla]

Thanks, Everyone. I am so glad it is done.

Byron,

It appears to me that I had the same vent flex pipes you did for your insert. The pipes went right up the flue and I had to replace the vent piece on top of the chimney as well. I think my vent pipes are 3.5" diameter but I'm not sure. Anyway, my damper didn't need removed...just wedged it open good. It barely moves it is so gunked up so no worries.

Everything I needed came with the insert as an install kit. You'll have to get on your back, put eye/face protection on, get a strong light source, and measure up your flue!

Have fun! Thanks everyone again! :)

Now onto the EC I plan to install around this sucker: