Threading Black Pipe

[Chris Jenkins]

I'm getting ready to plumb in the air lines in the basement now that the garage is cleaned up and the air compressor is ready to go.

I am still up in the air a little bit about using black pipe vs copper.

Anyone try threading their own pipe? I saw HF has cheap kits for $30. Is this worth doing? I don't plan on doing this often so I didn't want to invest in a nice $200 Ridgid set. And the nearest threader place is 10 miles...

You think it is worth trying this HF set?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=30027

[Al Willits]

Working in the field I use the Ridgid line of threaders, another one of those get good equip for what your gonna do.
You might be able to buy the holder and just the pipe size threader you need, make sure to deburr the inside lip of the pipe and use plenty of thread cutting oil.
Use a good vise firmly anchored.

Check here if ya want.

http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/Manual-Ratchet-Threaders/index.htm

To bad ya weren't closer, you could borrow my set.

Al

[John Bush]

Hi Chris,
I have used both the manual type and the "official" power threader that I borrowed from a plumber friend for a weekend. If you have a lot of cutting and threading, the power unit is the way to go, as a rental. If you are not in too big of a hurry and anticipate needing to thread the occasional pipe in the future, it would be good to have the manual kit in our arsenal. You may want to consider getting a pipe vise so you won't distort the pipe in a flat jawed bench vise, and a cut-off tool as well. The $25 HF kit seems like a good deal. Good luck, JCB.

[Al Willits]

imho I'd forgo the cut off tool unless there really cheap, a hacksaw will do just fine.
Get the 4 wheel cutter if your gonna that route.

A power vise might be a good idea if there's lots to cut, be careful though, and lots of lube.
All depends on how much piping your gonna do, and how much ya wanna spend.

Al

[Joe Chritz]

It will work but using copper would most likely pay for itself in the aggravation of having to thread all that pipe.

When a Ridgid machine is within walking distance, black iron is a piece of cake. Well, almost anyway.

I haven't priced the difference in some time so we may be talking about a substantial chunk of money.

Joe

[John Bush]

I used the Rigid power drive machine and it was fun, but could be dangerous with all the torque it has. The ratcheting threaders would be OK, but sweating copper is much easier. JCB.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

I've done black pipe threading manually and it's a lot of work. I put in a few gas lines for a heater, gas grill , etc. and the threading really takes some time and muscle. On the other hand I've done a lot of copper pipe sweating over the years and that's so easy to cut, solder, etc. I know copper is expensive these days so you have to ask yourself what's your time worth.

[glenn bradley]

The HD near me rents this type of thing. I have had no luck with HF threading taps or dies; too inaccurate as to thread spacing, etc. I'd rent if possible.

[Howard Acheson]

Most rental equipment stores will rent pipe threaders and clamps.

[Mike Seals]

How many joints do you need to make? I prefer the copper route to the black iron, just for the rust issue, that is unless you have a "real" air drier that can remove the moisture.

What's the overall plan?

[Frank Chaffee]

Chris, you might consider that on the scale of a basement shop you could run the majority of your black piping with lengths that come off the shelf. The relatively few (?) pieces that would need to be cut to odd lengths and threaded could be done fairly cheaply by the supplier (BORG or hardware store).

Just another thought to consider…

[Chris Jenkins]

Copper may be the winning battle here. I haven't priced it much yet either. I did notice 10' of 1/2" :

Black Pipe = ~$9
Type L Copper = ~$13
Type M Copper = ~9

Type L is the what most people reccomend right?

[Frank Chaffee]

Copper is good.
Yes, Type L.

You’ve probably researched this Chris, but I’ll still add… Slope to drain, take all drops off the top of the pipe, etc. Lots of info on this here and at FWW too.

[Chris Jenkins]

Frank,

I was looking at the Menards by me and they sell about 4 different lengths. I made a trip to the HD on my lunch break today at my work and they sell like 8 different lengths. You may be correct with this one. I need to do measuring and quanity counts before I even start this project, so maybe I can buy the pre-fab lengths and be fine.

Can anyone tell me the diff between Type L and Type M, as I do not spend much time doing copper now that the new place has CPVC.

[Chuck Reeves]

Would using schedule 40 PVC be out of the question. 3/4" is rated to 480psi and is $1.62 per 10' stick. Gluing is easy. No new tools needed. Wait that may be a bad thing!

[Michael Lutz]

Compressed air and PVC is a big mistake:eek: , PVC breaks into shards when it fail which can be dangerous. I bought a rachetting hand threader from Menards for 3/4" pipe to make my pipe clamps. It cost cost around $70 and the threads were OK, but would probably have been better if I have used lube.:rolleyes: The pipe is less expensive in 10' lengths. I cut the black iron pipe with a hacksaw.

Mike

[Ray Phillips]

Part of your question was use of the HF cheap pipe threader worth it. I have used the cheap HF pipe threader and they worked just fine. As a matter of fact I am going to buy my own set. I borrowed the set I used. I used plenty of oil and had no problems. I purchesed most of my pipe already threaded but I did have to cut a couple of pieces and thread them.

[Mike Holbrook]

I just bought pipe from HD a few days ago. They had a big Rigid threading machine with the pipe and charged me $.50 per cut to thread the 21' piece of pipe I bought. I believe I paid under $5 to have the whole thing cut up and threaded in 20" sections. I would say it took 15-20 minuets to do the whole job. I bought a couple of shorter pre treaded pipe lengths too. The threads that were made on the machine were better than the handled and abused threads from the manufacturer.

[Al Willits]

Remember if you a bit short with a lenght of 1/2" pipe you can use a coupling, adds to the labor but usually you can get close with premade lenghts and couplings.
I run my shop in 3/4" pipe, but I work in the trades (gasfitter/HVAC) and needed max air at the time.
Pipe may be more work, but its the strongest and its easily disasembled or added to.
I've had PVC fitting burst on me, was at 165# but I would not use it again.
Probably against code, but not sure.
Al

[Chris Jenkins]

I've heard going with PVC is a bad idea. Why exactly, I don't know. Although the idea of gluing can be one of the reasons. If you glue everything together it doesn't give you a chance to taylor the system like threaded pipe does. If you want to add somethign later you'll have to cut it all up and glue it all back together. Then again I guess this isn't that bad cause you still have to take black pipe apart one piece at a time from the closest union.

Anyone have objections to PVC?

[Al Willits]

See my post just above yours on PVC

Al

[Steve Kohn]

When I put my compressed air system in the shop I looked at plastic. I quickly discarded that idea after doing research on the web. It turns out that plastic is reported to get brittle over time. Then if hit while under pressure can produce sharp shards of plastic. The analogy I saw used was "fragmentation grenade".

So I looked at black pipe, then said to heck with it and spent the extra money on copper that I could sweat together. I figured I spent about $50 more for copper (about 100 foot loop of 3/4 inch) than I would of with pipe. And I didn't have to thread one joint.

[David G Baker]

Al,
I go to garage sales quite a bit when the weather improves and if I see the name Ridgid and the price is fair I buy it. I have a couple sets of dies and taps up to 1 inch, several vices, a tripod vice, at least one each of all the sizes of wrenches. I will bet that I have less than $150 invested. A couple of times in an emergency I have purchased the lesser quality tools and have found them to be more of a problem than they were worth. I am no young kid anymore and have found it to be a lot of work cutting and fitting iron pipe so in most cases use copper. I will not get rid of my Ridgid tools until I head for a rest home. Almost forgot I also have an Oster power threader with at least 6 dies up to two inch that I have been in the process of over hauling for the past ten years.
Don't remember which is which on the M and L type copper but I know that one is a much stronger pipe that is a tiny fraction bigger around (depending on the supplier) than the other. If I was doing any high pressure air I would use the stronger copper pipe. Copper is so much easier to work with. I have read about folks using PEX for air but do not know how good it works.
David B

["Gary Brewer"]

Hi Chris: The copper grades are K,L,M. K is for soft flexible copper pipe like what is put in the ground running a water supply to a house or sometimes run in a house. It comes in coils. (K is not what you want ). L and M grade copper is straight rigid ( relatively ) pipe usually in 10 foot lengths. L is thicker than M. L is what I have seen in houses and apartment complexes and is better than M. I would only run type L copper and never M. Steel pipe is not hard to run and the length differences are usually made up using shorter nipples if you don't have a thread machine to make custom lengths. Most big box stores and good hardware stores will cut and thread lengths for you. I am sure you could measure your basic needs for the air supply and use standard lengths and have a few custom threaded lengths. The black pipe can come in 20 foot lengths which is handy. I used to use a nipple kit ( really I didn't make this up ) when installing water heaters and a few furnaces and boiler work. It is a box with an assortment of small nipples. So off the shelf lengths plus the nipple kit would suffice for a water heater raplacement and boiler repair. The new gas lines I put in two of my houses I measured and had the longer lengths cut and threaded with one pick up at the hardware store. It really isn't as bad as it seems. I don't think you would need a nipple kit just measure up the big stuff, buy an assortment of small nipples, pipe dope and you're in business. Take back the stuff you don't use. You don't really need to buy threading equuipment. The copper probably would work fine, if the steel were cheaper I would run that. Just my opinion.
Gary

[Al Willits]

"""""""""""
Al,
I go to garage sales quite a bit when the weather improves and if I see the name Ridgid and the price is fair I buy it. I have a couple sets of dies and taps up to 1 inch, several vices, a tripod vice, at least one each of all the sizes of wrenches. I will bet that I have less than $150 invested. A couple of times in an emergency I have purchased the lesser quality tools and have found them to be more of a problem than they were worth. I am no young kid anymore and have found it to be a lot of work cutting and fitting iron pipe so in most cases use copper. I will not get rid of my Ridgid tools until I head for a rest home. Almost forgot I also have an Oster power threader with at least 6 dies up to two inch that I have been in the process of over hauling for the past ten years.
""""""""""""""

Hard to justify cheap quality tools when you do something like threading pipe, garage sales are a great way to get tools, I was lucky enough to be in the trades and be able to take most my tools home when I went indoors to a desk job, but I'm getting old enough that doing any major piping is a major chore, so I sold my power vise, but kept all the rest.

I piped a buddies air system in using copper, I used a sil-fos type of solder so I wouldn't have to deal with flux and cleaning copper prior to soldering, higher temps are required, but it cut the time down quite a bit.

Thing to remember with copper is, if your solder joints are close to combustibles, are you gonna be able to insulate enough to prevent burning?

Al

[Chuck Reeves]

Thanks for the PVC info. In light of the above I would rule PVC out.

When cutting pipe to length don't forget to reduce the cut length for fitting "take out" (the distance from center line of outlet to the end of the pipe) or you could end up creeping at the rate of 1 1/2" per joint for 3/4" steel pipe. This distance could be more or less for copper piping. I'm not familiar with copper fitting take outs.

[Howard Acheson]

>> Would using schedule 40 PVC be out of the question.

Yes, in fact, it is prohibited in most commercial operations by OSHA and other safety organizations. PVC will burst into hight speed shards when it fails. It rapidly deteriorates in the presense of oil and UV.

[Chris Jenkins]

Gary - Thanks for the info on Copper, good info to know.

PVC was pretty much ruled out before, and is for sure now.

It seems the copper is about $5 more per piece of 10' section than that of steel pipe. I like the idea of being able to take apart my pipe without sweating the pipe. Plus I'm not that great at sweating, especially the short runs. Seems every time I do the short runs (IE, the loops that should come off the top of the air line) one joint comes apart when soldering the next. Maybe it's time I switch over to Mapp.

Thanks for all the info. I plan to do some measuring this weekend and get an idea of what I need.

[David G Baker]

Al,
I had forgotten about sil-fos. I have never used it but have been around it when someone else used it. When I was a kid I worked for Southern Pacific Railroad as a combination sheet metal/pipe fitter apprentice. I really loved the job. One time I got to gold-fos some hydraulic lines that powered a hydraulic motor that ran a gigantic cooling fan. I was amazed at how beautiful the joint looked and how easy it was. Sil-fos and Gold-fos are so much stronger than regular solder.
I have found that when sweating copper it takes practice and if done enough it becomes second nature. Now if I could get to the same point with arc welding.
David B

[Al Willits]

Sil-fos is a bit more expensive than reglar solder, but you can build it up just like welding, once won a bet but soldering up a 5/8" hole in a radiator, took awhile, but it can be done with a bit of practice and torch control.
Its main stuff I use, never used the gold stuff though.
It does make pretty joins.

Ya get by Minn, I'll fire up the stick and wire feed, and get ya started as a welder....:)

Al ...... who sees a new vocation for someone.....:D

[Bill Turpin]

Sil-phos is a self fluxing material. If you want a good leak free joint you should still sand the fitting and copper clean. Sil-phos is very strong, however the additional heat needed weakens the copper so that over all it is less strong. The actual joint is sooo strong, and the added heat necessary makes it almost impossible to modify or take apart a joint. A 95/5 solder joint can be modified many times as long as it is cleaned every time.

One of the tricks to soldering is to clean and flux the solder before heating. Apply the heat to where you want the solder to be sucked to. Do not apply heat directly to the solder.These two steps will prevent the solder from oxidizing. Oxidation causes pin hole leaks. I recomend LACO brand paste flux. It changes color (darkens) just before the copper is hot enough for proper solder flow. Heat the fitting with the fluxed solder in the area, but not in the flame. This will pre-heat the solder but not melt it. When hot enough, touch the solder to gap to be filled. It should be sucked in. Apply solder until one drop of solder falls off.

For heat sensitive valves, filters, etc solder threaded adapters to six inch lengths. Screw into device and then connect to the system with a coupling. Buy a fitting brush and use sanding strip to clean tube end, inside the fitting, and the outside lip of the fitting. Apply flux to the tube, insert into fitting, and twist to disperse the flux. Then wipe the oozed out flux around and on the fitting lip.

The nice thing about copper is that modifications can be easily made anywhere in the system.

Slope downhill whatever piping used to a water trap. At end of runs put a tee (instead of an ell) with a cap for later additions.

Bill in WNC mountains

["Gary Brewer"]

Chris: You mentioned your joints coming apart. If you are going to solder say an ell ( 90 degree ) always solder the lower joint first and then the upper joint. If you don't and solder the top first and then the lower when you do the lower you can suck solder from the top joint and weaken it. Of course both joints to be soldered should be prepared at the same time with emory cloth cleaning, and a good paste flux. If you want a clean look you can also wipe the bottom of the joint with a cloth or paper towel just be sure to wipe away from you so that you don't flick solder on yourself. Also you can use the old lead solder on an air line since you are not going to drink water from it ( I hope? ). The old 50/50 solder is easier to solder and does not require the higher temps that the new lead-free solders do. That is why you've seen the mapp gas torches being so popular because to solder 3/4 copper pipe with the new solder is a lot harder with the old propane gas and it is just easier to use mapp gas.
Gary

[Nancy Laird]

Compressed air and PVC is a big mistake:eek: , PVC breaks into shards when it fail which can be dangerous.
Mike

We've had our air lines in our shop for 13-1/2 years using PVC with nary a failure of either pipe itself or a joint. We have a 5hp compressor with a 125psi max pressure (we regulate down to about 100psi), the air is used fairly often for spraying or other uses (2 or 3 times per week)-LOML even uses it to air up the tires on the trailer and RV on occasion. Our experience might be difference than others', but the PVC has worked for us.

Nancy

[Al Willits]

"""""""""""""
Sil-phos is a self fluxing material. If you want a good leak free joint you should still sand the fitting and copper clean. Sil-phos is very strong, however the additional heat needed weakens the copper so that over all it is less strong. The actual joint is sooo strong, and the added heat necessary makes it almost impossible to modify or take apart a joint. A 95/5 solder joint can be modified many times as long as it is cleaned every time.
""""""""

Must not work with it much, we use it on A/C lines that run close to 400 psi pressures and don't ever clean it, resolder it on a regular basis and unsolder the joints many times with out any problems.
When I say not cleaned I'm talking about the oxidation on the copper, not chunks of dirt/whatever btw
Weaker? If so, not hardly enough to matter in A/C lines so I doubt a 120 psi air line is gonna bother it.

Al

[Russ Cass]

Chris, I'm planning on piping my 2 car garage for air this spring and
decided to sweat copper rather than wrestle with black iron pipe.

The cost will be slightly higher, but the aggravation factor is way lower :D

Russ

[Charles McKinley]

Hi Chris,

Welding is a great skill but price some WeldBend fitting and I don't think you will want to use it in the shop.

[David G Baker]

Al,
Thanks of the teaching offer. I probably won't be headed your way anytime soon the LOML has Virginia and Georgia on her mind so you know where I will be going on vacation.
I have a Hobart wire rig and a couple of stick welders. I can weld but it has been a while and need to get back at it and do a little practicing. My gas bottle is empty on the Hobart rig so I have been using flux core. Not a pretty but it works.
To keep this on a wood oriented topic, I have to build me a few stands for a some of my wood working tools. I have a Delta 12 inch lunch box, Delta 6 inch jointer and a Delta shaper.
I also am going to run a bunch of air lines in my pole barn and will be using copper. My next big purchase is going to be a two stage compressor. Not that I need it but have wanted one for years. I use a airless portable that will do most of what I need but it is slowly dying and when it gets buried I am going to get the big stationary unit.
David B