China, Taiwan, Italy, Germany, even USA - where does this stuff really come from?

[Bill Fleming]

After living and working in Asia for several years I wish I had taken the time to find out but really folks, any members been to the factories where all the heavy iron woodworking machines come from?

I think for the most part the USA, Canadian, and Euro equipment come from factories with the names of the same brand they are sold under - some exceptions for some Euro equipment but one can usually find the manufacturer behind it.

For products from Asia that is another question - from the looks of the equipment in many cases it seems there must be a giant xxxx "Wood Working Factory No. 1" in China that produces everything from "no name, Jet, Delta, Steel City, Griz., etc." SawStop as well (Taiwan No.1, I think). In the end each brand agrees a set of specs with the factory - probably offered by the factory.

SawStop did a great job spec'g a great cabinet saw and may be one of the few actually spec'd by the buyer vs. offered by the manufacturer. Steel City is a perfect example - "Tools by and for Woodworkers" but the drillpress is plain... the new Delta if every delivered to the public is a "Tool for Woodworker" and I am sure all brand will have shortly.

Now that we have truly moved into the future where someone can create a brand, do the marketing and image work, out source manufacturering, out source delivery to Brown, and like computer folks, even out source repair and parts to someone like Brown... any insight into how to get into the heads of the different folks because under all the nice paint (white, gold, grey, blue...) it is all very similar, oh yes some sheet metal and vent holes can make the difference, just like the big difference between Chevy and Buick!

Seems it has become more, "find someone you like, or a color you like, buy a piece, if you are happy buy more....if not try a different color"

This has turned into kinda a rant but I guess I would like to see pictures of "Wood Working Factory No. 1" and see that folks are taken care of, proud of their work, have families, use the equipment, have been at it for years...

I guess I should just buy an old Delta, Powermatic, General, etc.

Anyway.... back to my multi-colored shop....

Cheers - Bill

[Jim Becker]

Ok, folks...this topic will be watched very carefully by the moderators. Keep it polite and NON-political. The thread will be closed to posting lickety-split if it deviates from those instructions.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Scott Loven]

Check these web sites (http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?Type=SALE%2CAGENT%2CMISC&SearchText=woodworking&IndexArea=offer_en&CatId=0) for information on the factories that actually manufacture the equipment you are talking about.
Some of the links have video tours of the factories, quite interesting. Woodworkers journal (http://http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/asia/)also did a tour of Asia recently
Scott

[Alex Shanku]

Ok, folks...this topic will be watched very carefully by the moderators. Keep it polite and NON-political. The thread will be closed to posting lickety-split if it deviates from those instructions.

Jim
SMC Moderator

Why do the moderators constantly remind/warn/threaten BEFORE the thread moves off-course? I have NEVER encountered this on ANY forum on the net, and I belong to MANY of them.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Alex.........I'm not a moderator and don't have any need to defend them. According to the terms of service politics, religion and flaming/personal attacks are not allowed here at SMC. This is done to keep from offending any member.

Some people have a difficult time in discussing subjects without expressing political or religious views or attacking others in the process.

The subject of this thread is one that seems to come up weekly and gets out of control easily.

This subject, for example, .......outsourcing manufacturing to other countries is a FACT OF LIFE.....it's here.....it exists.....and only when the consumer is willing to shell out the larger dollars is it going to have an effect of transferring manufacturing back to the non-developing countries. The reasons for outsourcing, are many....cheaper labor, less constricting laws of conservation, taxation, etc........

Some folks seem to want to beat this dead horse to death....but you can have the greatest effect by voting with your monetary unit and buy that which is built in the country where you desire it to be manufactured.

JMHO......

[Todd Solomon]

Why do the moderators constantly remind/warn/threaten BEFORE the thread moves off-course? I have NEVER encountered this on ANY forum on the net, and I belong to MANY of them.

I used to be against the idea of moderators, until I saw one of my favorite sites get virtually ruined by one bad apple. That site still doesn't have a moderator, and as a result it's quality, reputation, and volume of posts has suffered.

I applaud an active moderator with good judgement, like Jim. And I don't mind a polite pro-active reminder to keep things civil.

Todd

[Jim Becker]

Why do the moderators constantly remind/warn/threaten BEFORE the thread moves off-course?

History...which Ken pointed out quite well. Additionally, the intial post had to have a minor edit to keep it within the TOS right from the get-go. Moderators hate to edit, remove or block posting...but sometimes it's necessary to preserve order, civil conduct or compliance with the rules of the forum.

Now...let's make this the last off-topic post in this thread.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Gary Herrmann]

I'd rather deal with moderators' reminders than some of the trolls I've run into on different sites. Life is too short.

[Mike Conley]

I work for a relatively small manufacturing company that is having more and more of our components made in China. We make products for the building industry.

I wish we could continue to have these parts made in the USA but if we did we would probably no longer exist and I would have to work for another company that was already having their stuff made in China.

[Jason Roehl]

I'd rather deal with moderators' reminders than some of the trolls I've run into on different sites. Life is too short.

Excellent point, Gary. Me too. I'm on another forum, non-woodworking, and while it has similar guidelines to SMC, there is a paid, members-only section where virtually all topics are allowed (including politics and religion). There have been some "spirited" debates, but they are generally fine unless a troll shows up. Then it degrades into name-calling and belligerence--and is subsequently locked.

[Luciano Burtini]

As much as I love to own the higher quality (older?) North American cast iron tools, the answer to the question is clear as can be. I have in front of me a new General flyer. In it is a Canadian made 15" thickness planer with a 3hp motor. It is a beautiful machine and is priced at $4399 Cdn. Right next to this is a 15" General International 15" planer for $1889 and another for $1359 - both made offshore. Looking at the features, one could convincingly argue that the GI ($1859) is a more feature laden plane than the General. Which one would you buy?

Add to this the influx of no-name tools that only last for a single job (if that) that we continue to buy because they are cheap. Even though I constantly remind myself that there are no real savings and the headaches are not worth the lower cost, I still fall into this trap myself once in awhile.

If you don't want low quality tools, pay the price for the high quality ones. I don't doubt for a moment that the Asian factories are able to produce high(er) quality tools as well. However, they build what we purchase. If we stopped purchasing the junk, they would stop building it.

Simple as that.

[Bill Fleming]

Didn't mean to set anyone off....

I guess my question is simply "Does anyone know any of these manufacturers?" Years ago I happen to meet folks with V-Tech and at the time their claim to fame was they "had more shelf space in Toys-R-Us than anyone else" - just not under their brand. Now V-Tech is a brand on the shelves in the USA, while they continue to provide products under other's brands.

Any of the world's woodworking planning to bring their products to market directly? Any of the existing brands own their own foreign plants? Do any of these make product for others?

Just trying to get to know the folks on the other end of all these great tools.

[Jim Becker]

Any of the world's woodworking planning to bring their products to market directly? Any of the existing brands own their own foreign plants? Do any of these make product for others?

This is an excellent question. I tend to think not...largely because contract manufacturing is a very lucrative business to be in...and not just relative to our focus here at SMC.

For example, in the telcom world where I live, there are a few well known contract manufacturers that do a lot of the work for the companies who compete in the business. My understanding is that you can go to a fabrication/assembly plant for one of these firms and see my company's stuff rolling down a line with stuff from our "arch competitor" rolling down the line right next to it. None of these contract manufacturers have their own brand, nor are they likely to do so.

The same holds true in the PC business, although there have been instances where a contractors have broken out. If I recall, Acer (Taiwan) is one of them. So is Lenovo. (China - who subsequently bought the IBM PC business)

I suspect that the contract manufacturers who build gear for the tool companies are in a similar frame of mind...making money with little incentive to add the cost of branding and marketing on their own.

[Vijay Kumar]

I think Geetech in Taiwan (with factories in Taiwan and China) makes many of the jointers such as Sunhill, (and I believe Delta, Grizzly etc). Claim to have a jointer production capacity of 60,000 per year and planer capacity of 100,000 per year. Surely this kind of capacity suggests that they make jointers and planers for many makers.

Vijay


Didn't mean to set anyone off....

I guess my question is simply "Does anyone know any of these manufacturers?" Years ago I happen to meet folks with V-Tech and at the time their claim to fame was they "had more shelf space in Toys-R-Us than anyone else" - just not under their brand. Now V-Tech is a brand on the shelves in the USA, while they continue to provide products under other's brands.

Any of the world's woodworking planning to bring their products to market directly? Any of the existing brands own their own foreign plants? Do any of these make product for others?

Just trying to get to know the folks on the other end of all these great tools.

[Brian Elfert]

As much as I love to own the higher quality (older?) North American cast iron tools, the answer to the question is clear as can be. I have in front of me a new General flyer. In it is a Canadian made 15" thickness planer with a 3hp motor. It is a beautiful machine and is priced at $4399 Cdn. Right next to this is a 15" General International 15" planer for $1889 and another for $1359 - both made offshore. Looking at the features, one could convincingly argue that the GI ($1859) is a more feature laden plane than the General. Which one would you buy?


I don't think most of the General Canadian made stuff has been updated since the 1970s. I bought their drill press a few years back and the manual was written in the mid 1970s. The manual mentioned the need to purchase a 1/2 HP motor, yet the drill press comes with a Baldor motor.

Any of Asian drill presses have a lot more features, but they aren't built like a tank like the General.

Brian Elfert

[John Schreiber]

If you don't want low quality tools, pay the price for the high quality ones. I don't doubt for a moment that the Asian factories are able to produce high(er) quality tools as well. However, they build what we purchase. If we stopped purchasing the junk, they would stop building it.
<rant mode on>
I'm with Luciano here, quality is available in Asia, Europe or North America (probably other places too), but we get what our providers specify. For example, Sawstop seems to be acknowledged to be the best built cabinet saw available regardless of safety features and it's made in Asia. Grizzly sells products at a couple different levels. Their high end products made in ISO 9001 factories are going to be as good as anything you can get.

Management at American tool companies seems to be going mostly for the lowest level of innovation, price, quality and service.

Inspired management could make all the difference. We're not buying (or dreaming of buying) MiniMax or Felder machines because the cost of doing business is lower in Italy or Austria, we want those products because they are innovative, high quality and well supported. Those products also show how a highly paid workforce can compete. I would be proud to own an American made Delta or Powermatic built with that philosophy.</rant>

[Wilbur Pan]

I've mentioned this before, but to chime in with John and Luciano, Chinese tool and machinery factories are capable of turning out equipment equal to that of made in the U.S. All you have to do is be willing to pay extra for the additional quality control, personnel, and engineering. And when you do that, the machine you get will wind up costing pretty much the same as the U.S.-made machine.

[Mike Wilkins]

I remember a past article in FWW about the Taiwanese factories that produced woodworking machinery. Lots of mom and pop side businesses that produced only one component of a machine.But also an assembly line with exact copies of a machine, but all of a sudden the paint scheme changed.
Same factory produced machines for different companies.
FWW also had an article on mid-sized planers. In it they stated most parts are interchangeable with another brand, most were similar in specs/performance, with only a slight price difference.
This is the way of life now. If you want only US-made in your shop, the old and used market is your best bet, as many here have already found out.
Enough. Lets go make some sawdust. Lots of it.

[Mark Singer]

I have had lots of machinery over the years made in many parts of the world.....some certainly better than others in terms of quality....now if I look at the pieces of furniture I made, I can't really remember which bandsaw I used on this chair, or which jointer on which table ....the work produced seems to be consistent and if it is better , it is probably because I learned more with time and experience and not really a product of a better tool. How different were the machines? Jointers from a 6" Jet at a cost of $450....to my MM Elite S at about 10 grand! Small Delta planner at about $240 ! Bandsaws from a 14" Jet at about $475 to my Aggazani at about $2500. Along with the price the place of origin is varied as well....Italy, Asia, USA... The point is is that you can enjoy woodworking and do very good work on modest machinery if you are diligent and practice. There are many terrific shops with great equipment where little is produced and what is made is just ok. If you think about the biggest, most automated , most precise machinery are in the factories where furniture (if you can call it that) of questionable construction methods and materials is produced. The true burden of quality in work lies on each individual woodworker....the question on the machinery where and how good is a bit rhetorical....in my opinion:confused: The real question is: what are you making with what you have ? Is the design strong? Original in some way? Is the joinery well designed and executed? What about the finish? Is the character of the wood truly expressed by planning or other means? and the surface ....is the sealer in character with the nature of the wood .

[Dan Lee]

Gotta agree with Mark. I started out with Craftsman TS and jointer Delta 12 inch planer. Made some nice stuff with them, they did require checking alignments all the time but...
I've been looking into getting a larger jointer lately and a Northfield (made in the USA) 8" 3Hp runs $9K+:eek: . Can't justify that cost especially since I want a 10 or 12"

[Doug Kerley]

I have a multi-coloured shop that has machines made in both the USA and overseas. My experience has been, as with other products other than tools, if the company selling/marketing the product has control over the manufacturing process, the product can be as good as the company wants it to be. If the product is being tendered out to any manufacturing plant and the company does not have control over the manufacturing process/quality control, it can be hit and miss.

I have several General International machines. After receiving a new 18" bandsaw and a 10 inch jointer w/mortiser I am going to be more vigilante in my purchasing decisions. The jointer is beautiful, the attached mortiser could use some re-enginneering, the bandsaw is going to cost me another $600.00 to tune-up to a standard that I believe to be acceptable.

The latest high end Canadian built tool that I purchased is being replaced by the manufacturer for manufacturing defects. I also have two small hand tools that were built in England, both purchased from Lee Valley sporting the same brand and both are of poor quality.

All that I can say is buyer beware!

Cheers

Doug Kerley

[Dave MacArthur]

The core topic of this thread is very interesting, and I find myself wondering... WHY is it not more blatantly put forward, if "we" know of it, which machines are the same parts? When you consider the amount of time I, and I suspect most of you too, spend looking at various tools, reading reviews, studying...
... if someone is doing a "jointer review" on 8" jointers, why isn't the FIRST thing written down,
Jet 8" Tables and cutter produced in Factory #4, China. < rest of all the "comparison">?

I would think that a community such as this with so many members and wide access to hands-on knowledge, would maintain a forum or sticky that listed this very type of info, now that I think of it. Of course, THAT would be some majorly hard work as specs and factories changed, which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy, but the general idea is sound.

I absolutely have no problem thinking that ISO9001 factory #2 producing brand a,b,f,x, and R jointers is able to make superb quality; but I'd sure love to know that all these tools came from the same plant, and THIS brand uses tighter specs and higher standards. Now I can focus on EXACTLY what I am interested in--quality! And stop hypothesizing quality based on a hypothesized point of origin. If I can focus origin down to the same place, what is left in difference IS specs and quality control.

I apologize if someone is about to post a link to exactly what I'm talking about, that I failed to find myself ;)

[Mike Cutler]

The real question is: what are you making with what you have ? Is the design strong? Original in some way? Is the joinery well designed and executed? What about the finish? Is the character of the wood truly expressed by planning or other means? and the surface ....is the sealer in character with the nature of the wood .

Well stated Mark. I agree completely.

[Chris Barton]

I'll try to reply to the original question. While the country of origin may be of some passing interest to me what is really important is how well a tool works and it's durability. To date, I've yet to find that any one manufacturer has a lock on that across their product line. So, I buy based on outcomes, not nationalities.

[John Renzetti]

hi, A lot of the European stuff comes out of the company owned and operated factories. Felder, MM, Altendorf, Martin-the list goes on. I've been to the Felder factory and a couple of friends have been to the Martin factory in Germany. A lot of stuff is done right in house. Some components such as the sliding table extrusions, castings and electricals from other sources. This is normal. All the electricals on my machines, which are mostly Felder format came from Italy, Germany, France. Recently the electrical components are coming from the USA due to the strong Euro vs the $. Some machines are outsourced completely and the company just puts their name and colors on the machine. Bandsaws are a good example. Centauro, Agazzani and ACM in Italy seem to make the most bandsaws for everybody.
Machines coming out of Taiwan or China can be really good or so-so. As someone pointed out, you can get top quality machinery from China but you are going to pay for it. Butferring the German company who make big wide belts, have some of their less expensive ($15k-$40K) made in China. Altendorf has a slider made in China.
There are about 3 factories that make the open end widebelts. Trying to figure out which factory is the difficult part. There are factories that will use the components used on other brands to put together a machine under one or more brands. A lot of machines will have the same parts even though they are put together in a different factory in China. The key is that the importer, Grizzley, Sunhill, Steel City, had better have somebody on site to check the quality. You could have one machine that is perfect and the next one down the line be junk.
take care,
John

[Pat Germain]

If a group of us made the effort to fly to Asia, visit factories and track down the source of most tools made there, our information would likely be obsolete by the time we got back. While I'm sure there are only a few very large factories, it's likely what they manufacture and how they do it changes constantly. Also, new factories are always opening in other places, like India, as they become industrialized.

Modern manufacturing isn't like it used to be; cranking out exact copies of the same product year after year. It's now very dynamic. Suppliers, methods and even locations are ever-changing.

I'm a big reader of Consumer Reports magazine. I find it interesting that over the years it's more and more common for CR to put an article on the street and the subject model is no longer available. It has been replaced by another; sometimes very similar, sometimes very different. While large woodworking tools aren't that fluid, it's likely the component suppliers and methods are always changing.

As an example, one of our members here recently reported his Shop Fox jointer came with a bad belt which caused all kinds of vibration problems. I expect the factory switched to a new supplier for belts which isn't working out. They will likely identify the problem and demand the supplier fix it. If the problem isn't fixed right away, they'll move on to another belt supplier. Thus, it would be wrong for us to say, "Shop Fox belts are crap!" because by the time we said it, a new belt supplier would be online.

[Bruce Page]

I used to be against the idea of moderators, until I saw one of my favorite sites get virtually ruined by one bad apple. That site still doesn't have a moderator, and as a result it's quality, reputation, and volume of posts has suffered.

I applaud an active moderator with good judgement, like Jim. And I don't mind a polite pro-active reminder to keep things civil.

Todd

Todd, I agree completely, although I don’t like the red ink.

[Jim Becker]

Todd, I agree completely, although I don’t like the red ink.

Well...it does stand out a little more... ;)

[Gary Curtis]

Luciano,

My General cabinet saw was made in Canada. The General sliding table (w/outrigger) attached to it was made in Taiwan.

The quality? I would say the Canadian part is over the top: Baldor motor, that special grade of iron General of Canada uses. Beefy construction. The Taiwanese sliding table I would categorize as robust. But plating and attachments are a bit down the scale on quality. The castings are rougher.

I was surprised to see on NBC news a video about Boeing's new Dreamliner aircraft. The center fuselage is made in Italy. The wings come from Japan. the nose and tail are made in Everett Washington. It tells me that this is the way of the world, if Boeing is doing it.

Gary Curtis

[Chris Friesen]

...but I'd sure love to know that all these tools came from the same plant, and THIS brand uses tighter specs and higher standards. Now I can focus on EXACTLY what I am interested in--quality!

While it would be nice to know, the only way to get this info is to get it from the companies involved (good luck!) or else buy a representative sample of the equipment from each vendor and analyze it (big $$$).

Realistically, its never going to happen. So the next best thing is to shop around, see what others think, and basically never be the first adopter (aka beta tester) for a new product.

[mike roe]

theoretically speaking, it is wise to buy from a neighbor that which you cannot more cheaply produce yourself - Outsourcing does not necessarily have to be a bad thing, nor does it necessarily lead to poor quality.

[Art Mann]

Pardon me if this post is a little off topic, but I think I have a little information that might be worth knowing. I was a manufacturing engineering supervisor at a plant that makes approximately a billion dollars in automotive electronics annually. During my tenure, the plant achieved QS-9000 certification, which is the almost identical automotive version of the ISO-9000 certification that has been frequently mentioned in this thread. I am here to tell you that ISO-9000 certification does not prove anything whatsoever with respect to product quality. Certification means you have well defined and documented manufacturing and quality control procedures and that you have records and paperwork to prove you are following those procedures. The auditors do not have any specific knowledge of the product you are making and have no way of knowing whether those procedures are appropriate for getting the job done. They don't even care. After a huge effort and millions of dollars of investment, we achieved certification. Our quality did not improve any as a result. In fact, it went down slightly. Resources that would have been spent devising better processes, and therefore product, were diverted to procedure and report writing instead. We went to the trouble of getting certified for the same reason the factories that make Grizzly equipment did - it makes for some very good, if misleading, product advertising.

[fRED mCnEILL]

I have a friend who manufactures hot tub cover rermovers. Recently he switched from local supply to haivng product manufactured in China. He gave them the specs. and the stuff they made is done very well-BUT not quite right. e.g. one tube was a slip fit into another tube but the fit was sloppy. So he had to get on a plane and go to China to meet with the manufacturers. Problem solved!

So it appears to me that the quality that comes from a particular vendor i.e. Grizzly-is what that vendor will accept from the Chinese manufacturer. In other words the quality of product a particular vendor sells is more a reflection on the vendor than the manufacturer. But there is no question they have the ability to make top notch stuff at a significant reduction in price.

Fred Mc.

[Bob Aquino]

Luciano,

I was surprised to see on NBC news a video about Boeing's new Dreamliner aircraft. The center fuselage is made in Italy. The wings come from Japan. the nose and tail are made in Everett Washington. It tells me that this is the way of the world, if Boeing is doing it.

Gary Curtis

That has as much to do with marketing and politics as it has to do with getting the parts cheaper. The EU and the Japanese are much more willing to spend money on an American aircraft if parts are coming from them. There is more competition in the aerospace industry and companies like Boeing cant count on a majority of American sales to carry them over.

[Pat Germain]

^^Sounds just like the CMMI certifications for software development. All the software companies want this rubber stamp so they can brag about it to win contracts. Everyone bends over backwards and writes lots of documents describing how things will work. Once the inspection is over it's, "We don't have time for that!". The entire process goes out the window and it's back to the old days of cowboy software development. :rolleyes:

Whomever came up with this ISO and CMMI stuff sure created a racket. I have more faith in the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval. :)

[John Schreiber]

I'm a big reader of Consumer Reports magazine. I find it interesting that over the years it's more and more common for CR to put an article on the street and the subject model is no longer available. It has been replaced by another; sometimes very similar, sometimes very different. While large woodworking tools aren't that fluid, it's likely the component suppliers and methods are always changing.

As an example, one of our members here recently reported his Shop Fox jointer came with a bad belt which caused all kinds of vibration problems. I expect the factory switched to a new supplier for belts which isn't working out. They will likely identify the problem and demand the supplier fix it. If the problem isn't fixed right away, they'll move on to another belt supplier. Thus, it would be wrong for us to say, "Shop Fox belts are crap!" because by the time we said it, a new belt supplier would be online.
Excellent points. I keep hearing people say things like "Brand X is crap because . . . " when a little thought will tell you that one experience does not tell the whole story.

While the modern marketplace is far too complex for us to really understand what's going on, there is still such a thing as corporate culture and legitimate reputations. It is good to recognize that and to be willing to pay more to associate with organizations which share your attitudes.

[Jim Becker]

Something that further complicates things in the same vein that Pat brings up is the fact that there can often be changes to a product in its life cycle with no indication that they occurred...no change in the model number, etc. Same "model" but a different product!

[Jim Grill]

Something that further complicates things in the same vein that Pat brings up is the fact that there can often be changes to a product in its life cycle with no indication that they occurred...no change in the model number, etc. Same "model" but a different product!

That's a fact. I have an old Jet JWP-15 planer from waaay back. Same model number was used for a long time. The one I have was actually made by Makita and looks nothing like the white ones that most of us would be familiar with. I have to go to Makita for parts for mine because Jet no longer carries them. And Freud is the only manufacturer of knives for it. It makes things complicated.

I purchased an additional motor and some of the gears for the rollers just in case they are unavailable one day.

[Colin Glenn]

Luciano,

I was surprised to see on NBC news a video about Boeing's new Dreamliner aircraft. The center fuselage is made in Italy. The wings come from Japan. the nose and tail are made in Everett Washington. It tells me that this is the way of the world, if Boeing is doing it.

Gary Curtis

Boeing does it for a different reason. If they don't partner with suppliers in those countries, they won't be able to secure sales in those countries.

[larry bradley]

I'd like to buy made in USA - and when I can't I try for Canada or Europe - and then Taiwan (free democracy), then Mexico/S.A....etc. in other words I think the quality of the tool is paramount - but so is the life that the workers have, the wages they are paid, how the environment is treated by the manufacturing process, etc.

When you buy cheap - regardless of where it's from - imagine what's being done to the environment - air and water - and imagine the workers life as well. I will pay more to support a good standard of living and environmental protection - I wish I could always know where stuff is from.

I will always choose to buy - if I can - from a my own countrymen, a democracy, a neighbor - than an across the world dictatorship that is massively polluting the planet. And - usually the quality will follow along.

I wish the made-in information was more explicit and clear.

[Greg Muller]

Alex.........I'm not a moderator and don't have any need to defend them.
JMHO......


Ken,
If you're not a moderator, why does it say "moderator" under your name?:)

A note to all mods- you guys do good work, I've seen forums in the past become worthless due to infighting, political trash-talking, and even become pseudo-porn outlets. I really enjoy SMC and want it to stay the way it is; a non-ad driven, unbiased, informative, fun forum!

Now, if everyone doesn't mind, I'll turn off my sycophantic power switch now.

:D Greg

[SCOTT ANDREWS]

I have had lots of machinery over the years made in many parts of the world.....some certainly better than others in terms of quality....now if I look at the pieces of furniture I made, I can't really remember which bandsaw I used on this chair, or which jointer on which table ....the work produced seems to be consistent and if it is better , it is probably because I learned more with time and experience and not really a product of a better tool. How different were the machines? Jointers from a 6" Jet at a cost of $450....to my MM Elite S at about 10 grand! Small Delta planner at about $240 ! Bandsaws from a 14" Jet at about $475 to my Aggazani at about $2500. Along with the price the place of origin is varied as well....Italy, Asia, USA... The point is is that you can enjoy woodworking and do very good work on modest machinery if you are diligent and practice. There are many terrific shops with great equipment where little is produced and what is made is just ok. If you think about the biggest, most automated , most precise machinery are in the factories where furniture (if you can call it that) of questionable construction methods and materials is produced. The true burden of quality in work lies on each individual woodworker....the question on the machinery where and how good is a bit rhetorical....in my opinion:confused: The real question is: what are you making with what you have ? Is the design strong? Original in some way? Is the joinery well designed and executed? What about the finish? Is the character of the wood truly expressed by planning or other means? and the surface ....is the sealer in character with the nature of the wood .

Very well put Mark.It's not about how many dollar signs you rolled in the shop,It's about the quality of your product when it leaves the shop.

[Gary Keedwell]

I'd like to buy made in USA - and when I can't I try for Canada or Europe - and then Taiwan (free democracy), then Mexico/S.A....etc. in other words I think the quality of the tool is paramount - but so is the life that the workers have, the wages they are paid, how the environment is treated by the manufacturing process, etc.

When you buy cheap - regardless of where it's from - imagine what's being done to the environment - air and water - and imagine the workers life as well. I will pay more to support a good standard of living and environmental protection - I wish I could always know where stuff is from.

I will always choose to buy - if I can - from a my own countrymen, a democracy, a neighbor - than an across the world dictatorship that is massively polluting the planet. And - usually the quality will follow along.

I wish the made-in information was more explicit and clear.
I see this is the second old thread you have revived this afternoon. I think you are just feeding your favorite political cause to this forum.:mad: :mad:

[Dan Barr]

theoretically speaking, it is wise to buy from a neighbor that which you cannot more cheaply produce yourself - Outsourcing does not necessarily have to be a bad thing, nor does it necessarily lead to poor quality.


I agree Mike,

A sort of global equilibrium has only been achieved in the past 50 years or so due to this. Management decides the design, options and price, the factories produce the pieces.

You do not have to waste money or believe that only quality products come from one source? We are fortunate that the products are there and you can choose for yourself. The medieval woodworker had no choice of tools. In the early 1800's, americans had very little choice of what products to buy, which piece was of higher quality. And that's only 200 years ago!

The Starrett company was not established until 1880! (only 127 years ago) I take for granted the accuracy and quality of my starrett squares and gauges every day.

I think it is a good thing that other nations are now perfecting manufacturing processes. In a sense, America has moved on to different things.

anyway, im just glad that i have all those options available to me.

v/r

dan

[Matt Meiser]

Ken,
If you're not a moderator, why does it say "moderator" under your name?:)

Because at the time this thread happened he wasn't. Since then he got promoted. (Or maybe demoted?)

[larry bradley]

Huh? I wasn't being political - just thinking about where my tools might come from. Seems like it's a legitimate discussion about where our tools are made and by whom and what that means for price and quality - very appropriate to this forum. And yes - I was searching for MM vs. Laguna vs. Grizzly vs. steel city and other makes of bandsaws and these threads came up - and I just couldn't resist putting some thoughts out there. :) Sorry to get you annoyed. I didn't criticize any party or make it about any politician (this issue cuts all ways I think) - but don't you care where your stuff is made? and don't you wish you could buy stuff hat your neighbor or countryman made (or be given that choice at least sometimes?)? wouldn't you like to know it's being made in a way that isn't maiming workers and polluting rivers and countryside? I'd say the best chance of that is stuff not made in China (and other places). I'm sure there are good manufacturers in China - but the thing is we don't know - we aren't told - and it's the conscious decision of big companies to keep us in the dark and fight and muddle the labelling regulations whenever they come out. a major reason stuff is so cheap is that the companies aren't having to pay for benefits, or worker or environmental protection - they can just do what they want - and give the US company absolute lowest cost (that they partially pass on- and mostly make a fatter margin on).


I see this is the second old thread you have revived this afternoon. I think you are just feeding your favorite political cause to this forum.:mad: :mad:

[Gary Keedwell]

I will always choose to buy - if I can - from a my own countrymen, a democracy, a neighbor - than an across the world dictatorship that is massively polluting the planet. And - usually the quality will follow along
Yea, in the course of a long thread , a little politics is inevitable, but we don't usually bring it back from obscurity just to talk about it again.:mad:
Gary

[Jake Helmboldt]

Gary, the guy has 9 posts; combined with his own claim that he has been searching for previous info/discussions I think it is pretty apparent that he is new to the Creek and has been perusing the issues discussed here. Cut the guy some slack. If you want the thread to die again then don't perpetuate it by posting to it.

[larry bradley]

If I find something interesting that the last post was a few months ago - I shouldn't add a comment? seems better than if i'd started a new thread, no?

thanks for your input.


Yea, in the course of a long thread , a little politics is inevitable, but we don't usually bring it back from obscurity just to talk about it again.:mad:
Gary