Creating a strong seal

[Keith Starosta]

This may not be the best place for this post, but I’m going with it regardless. I’m hoping to get some ideas (or one really good idea) on how to solve a major draft issue I have going in my bedroom. If you look at the picture I’ve attached below, you will see the front wall of our bedroom, which has a bumped out dormer window. The room is located directly above my shop (currently an un-insulated two-car garage) and suffers from extreme climate issues, ranging from stifling in the summer to frigid in the wintertime. A big part of this has to do with being over the shop. I’ll take care of a lot of the problem once I insulate the garage. However, another huge issue is the two access doors, located on either side of the dormer. Beyond the doors is just dead space in the attic that was supposedly meant for storage, but is basically unusable. The walls are insulated, and the door itself (a plain piece of drywall with some trim) has some insulation stapled to the backside. But that’s not doing the job. On cold, windy nights, the draft that shoots between the access door and the wall is strong enough to blow out a candle, making the room very cold (or hot depending upon the season).

What I would like to do is create an access door, probably with raised panel construction. But the guts of this project are going to be the seal that I am going to be able to create once the door is closed. Can anyone give me any recommendations as to what would be the best way to create a nice airtight seal on these doors? Currently, the access doors are just screwed to the wall, but I plan to hinge the new doors, possible increasing the difficulty associated to creating a strong seal.

Thanks very much for you help!

Keith

[Don Abele]

Keith, is the ceiling to your garage open to the rafters for your bedroom floor? If so, that would be the first thing to take care of. Not only from an insulation factor, but fire code requires any living space above a garage to be isolated using 5/8" drywall. I got hit on this at my last house when I was getting my VA loan walk-through. Insulation in the rafters is not required but will keep your bedroom and shop warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer. A fire rated door is also required between the garage and house (I don't remember what rate though, mine was in spec).

As for the knee wall areas...is there sheetrock inside the spaces or is it just insulated with the exposed rafters? If it's the later, the draft is most likely comng from your roof vents (ridge, eve, soffet). If it's sheetrocked (and taped) that would be odd.

To seal the doors I would frame the door jam in (it is already isn't) and use a solid wood/plywood door to reduce any flexing. Hinge one side and use a compression latch on the other side. Along the inside edge use door gasket designed for outside doors (it's a rubber "o" with a nailing flange).

Be well,

Doc

PS: Is that SketchUp you used? I love that program, Todd uses it a lot as well.

[Keith Starosta]

Doc,
Thanks for the tips. To answer a few questions:

The ceiling in the garage is indeed insulated and rocked.

I never thought about sheetrocking the inside of the kneewalk area. It is true that the vast majority of the "climate" problems is due to the roof vents. The areas are currently just insulated with rolled pink insulation. Would the air (either hot or cold) coming in through the roof vents damage the sheetrock at all, inside the kneewalk area? That's a great idea, though. Pretty tight space...should be interesting.

By the way, YES!! That is SketchUp. I checked it out the first time Todd mentioned it, and have been using it ever since, for all kinds of applications. Very cool application.

Thanks again!

Keith

[Charles McKinley]

To adjust the problem for now you might want to try stapling plastic up on the studs to block the air until you can get it rocked. It would be a lot eiser to get trough those little doors than plaster board.

Can you increase the door size (take it down to the floor) when you redo them to make getting the plaster board in easier and making the space more useable.

Good luck,

[Perry Schmidt]

Keith, is the ceiling to your garage open to the rafters for your bedroom floor? If so, that would be the first thing to take care of. Not only from an insulation factor, but fire code requires any living space above a garage to be isolated using 5/8" drywall. I got hit on this at my last house when I was getting my VA loan walk-through.


The 5/8" sheet rock between house/garage is right - that's code in most areas. Some cities it's not required. But just a note - be careful w/ what kind of sheet rock you get. There's 5/8" and 5/8" fire rated. The difference is the 'normal' sheet rock is just the white chaulky stuff. The fire rated has what looks like little hairs mixed in w/ the sheet rock. When you break it you can see these little hairs sticking up on the broken edge. It helps hold the sheet rock together just a little bit longer when the paper face burns off and the panel breaks down during a fire.

Don't know the cost difference between the two. Some stores only sell the fire rated stuff in 5/8" size. And some cities allow 5/8" non-fire rated for a fire break...mine doesn't require it. If you're putting up the sheet rock for a fire barrier, make sure you get the 5/8" fire rated. It'd be really depressing if you get all the sheet rock up and then have an inspector have you replace it all b/c it's not the fire rated 5/8" sheet rock.

FYI -

Perry

[Todd Burch]

Keith, you gotta love Sketchup! I knew you used Sketchup the instant I saw the drawing!

SINCE you are going to be doing something with this knee wall, have you considered reclaiming that space and building in some cabinets or shelves?

You could knock out the sheetrock in your room, put in some new framing to hold insulation in your new studs, sheetrock it from the inside, and now you have recesses between your knee wall studs for face frames and doors, or drawers, or shelves. Then, you don't need access doors - there won't be anything to access - you've reclaimed it.

Todd.

[Jason Roehl]

A strong seal (sorry, couldn't resist any longer...)?

UNDERWATER WEIGHTS

:D :cool:

[Todd Burch]

Jason, at first, I didn't get it. But after about a minute, I finally got it. HO HO HO!! (That's my seasonal laugh) Get back to work. :-)

Keith, I looked at the drawing again. If you were to build it out like I suggested, you would be restricted at the top portions due to the roof line, but if your drawing is to scale (and I assume it is, since you are using the EASIEST PROGRAM ON THE PLANET to draw with...), there there would still be plenty of room. And, if you wanted to get fancy, you could put a 4¼" crown, with a cap piece, on top of your face frame that could double as a small shelf area for knick-knacks, pictures, plate rail, etc.

And, if your drawing is REALLY REALY right on, then CLOSE YOUR WINDOWS! That might cure the draft problem!!!

Oh, silly me. Todd.

[Keith Starosta]

Jason, Jason, Jason.......BWAHAHAHA.......... :D

Todd,
I didn't even notice the windows were open! Can you actually close them? LOL....

I originally did that SketchUp drawing to show my wife what it would look like to build in a window seat in the dormer. I through it together quickly at work, just by visualizing the room in my head, so it isn't exactly to scale. Pretty close, though. I hadn't thought about doing any type of built-ins on the kneewall area, but I HAD thought about building in a boocase on either side of what will hopefully be a nice window seat soon. I guess the premise would be pretty much the same.


You could knock out the sheetrock in your room, put in some new framing to hold insulation in your new studs, sheetrock it from the inside, and now you have recesses between your knee wall studs for face frames and doors, or drawers, or shelves.

I'm having some difficulty visualizing what you meant here. I'm going to have to noodle this a while.

Again, thanks for all the input, guys....you too, Jason! :D

Keith

[Todd Burch]

Send me the .skp file and I'll continue with your picture. Todd.

[Chris Padilla]

I just downloaded a demo of Sketch-Up (well, a full-blown version that is good for 8 hours of "air" time) but I couldn't believe that you guys spent $500 for this?? I didn't notice a cheaper version. It must be really good. Did I miss something?

Chris

[Todd Burch]

Yep, $475. Before you use it, watch all the video demos on their web site.

[Brad Schafer]

Keith - I have a similar situation with crawl space access. The access door is visible and needed to be aesthetically pleasing (else wrath of wife), but the seal wasn't good. I opted for a double-door setup. The visible door is more for looks. On the back side is another door which is made of framed plywood. It closes against weather stripping, and is backed by insulation. It also locks down tight by a couple of hook latches.

It's somewhat of an airlock, and works very well.

In your case, I would put OSB on the crawl space floor (if you haven't already. I would insulate the interior-facing dormer walls with standard kraft-faced batts. And if air penetration is a problem around the base, you might see some benefit to stapling up visqueen on the backside of those dormers.

Sorry - no pix, since I'm no Sketchup wiz. Good luck,


b

[Keith Starosta]

Todd,
If you will send me a PM with your e-mail address, I'll fire off the .skp file. Thanks!!

Brad,
Thanks for those suggestions. Definitely some great ideas!!!

Keith

[Don Abele]

Keith, not sure how you have the space insulated. Here's a quick SketchUp of what it should look like (I'm not as proficient at it as Todd).

Attached to the underside of the roof sheathing is a vent (usually styrofoam). The insulation goes over this - be sure not to squish the vent or compress the insulation. Over the insulation goes a vapor barrier (5 mil), then the drywall. With this setup the roof stays the same temp as the outside and you'll get no condensation inside. This also keeps the air from just blowing around inside the space. Oh, this is taking it for granted that you have a ridge and soffet vent. If this space was originally an attic, this may not be the way it's set up. Attics are insulated on the floor (between the joists) and the soffet/ridge vent air circulates through the whole area.

I like Todd's idea a lot - reclaim that space and use it for the bookshelves you spoke of. That's quick and easy. Or take all of Todd's advice and go with built-in cabinetry. I've seen it before and it looks nice (and it would be easy to fix the insulation problem at the same time).

Perry, thanks for the clarification - I forgot to mention that.

Be well,

Doc

[Todd Burch]

Don - you have Sketchup too, eh?! Good for you. You'll love it if you are the type that likes to convey ideas visually.

Keith, I modified your file and produced two images. The first one shows (roughly) the type of framing that I would expect behind that kneewall.

The second illustrates the type of recesses that I was trying to describe above, and what the finished recesses would look like AFTER you framed and sheetrocked them. I did not "build" the cabinetry or face frames, but I think you can get my idea on that.

Your recesses will be dictated by the actual stud locations and the existing framing. If you have any outlets on that wall, you may have to move some wiring.

Todd.

[Keith Starosta]

That is pretty much what the roof system looks like. Now that I see your mods to the file, I understand what you were saying. I really like that idea! It would completely remove the doors, thus eliminating the draft. I don't think there would be any issue removing and re-installing the framing in those walls. I don't see it as a load-bearing wall. It would definitely be a challenge! Now, to show it to the LOML.....

Thanks for your work on that, Todd!

Keith

[Todd Burch]

While that wall might not be "load bearing", per se, the kneewall studs may very well be acting as purlins for the roof rafters, in essence shortening the span of the rafters so lighter framing could be used.

One thing you could do, if you wanted to reposition the studs for a more pleasing spacing, would be to add a proper sized header up under the rafters and stud it on the corners. You could then capture the whole "hole". Or, probably simpler, just re-space the studs to 16" OC (or 19.2" - whatever the rafters are spaced at) and go with it. The drawing I did shows 13½" wide holes, but I didn't space them properly. I only left 1½" between the recesses, whereas I should have left 2½" (1½" stud + 2 thicknesses of ½" sheetrock).

Let us know. Take pictures. If you start now, maybe you can be done by Christmas eve... ;)

Todd.

[Keith Starosta]

Christmas Eve?! Hell, with the time I have available, I'd be lucky to get it done before it got hot again in the Mid-Atlantic region!

Whatever I end up doing, I'll document the process and post it here. Again, thanks for the great ideas. This is going to be one of those learn-as-you-go projects. I'm looking forward to it.

Keith

[Chris Padilla]

Keith,

I personally find it a blast to tear open walls...maybe I'm weird but that 's okay. Consider what I started with:

http://members.roadfly.com/agent99/start.jpg

And a progress shot:

http://members.roadfly.com/agent99/stucco-fin.jpg

And now the fireplace is finished and awaiting the insert (see my post in the OT forum for problems with that):

http://members.roadfly.com/agent99/fp-fin.jpg


This was my first shot at being a masonist and boy did it take A LOT of work. It isn't perfect but not bad for a first timer.

You'll notice my TV is quite large and doesn't fit in the existing EC so, of course, I am designing a new one of maple ply/hardwood and walnut ply/hardwood. With this Punch! software I have, I have been designing the new space:

http://members.roadfly.com/agent99/EC-rendering.jpg


Some of the finer points are the TV cabinet that is angled into the room. My TV is very heavy and so I am going to support it on a rolling TV stand that will fit snugly into the outer cabinet--this will make wiring up everything MUCH easier...roll it out, wire it up, carefully roll it back in. I plan to make a face frame of some kind to hide all the gear but allow IR access to the electronic boxes and probably use some strong magnets to hold it on. I have realistic sizes of some speakers (HT) and various box representing various home electronics (cable, satellite, DVD, reciever, etc.) so I can figure out how things will fit and be arranged.

I should be done by summer...I hope! :)

Chris

[Keith Starosta]

Chris,

Boy, from the picture, those look like some really nice shelves you ripped out of there. I applaud your efforts at masonry! I've only done a small amount of that type of work. Tricky as hell. Good luck with your project. It looks great so far!

Keith

[Chris Padilla]

They were pickeled or whitewashed oak cabinets (they are now in the dining room and further giving the wife ideas...sigh....) and while they were quite nice, they just didn't fit with our needs. I bought this house a little over 4 years ago and it came with that setup.

Of course, being me, I had to rip out the sheetrock. I am redoing the electrical and I have speakers in the ceiling (for the HT) that I wired through. I also want to add some flex conduit to make future additions or upgrades of cable easier.

The masonry, well, sucked. I think I learned enough to know that I probably don't want to deal with it again. Overall, however, I saved a lot of money and I did learn a lot. Thanks for the accolades on the fireplace. In the end, I'm happy with how it turned out.

Get this, when I had the fireplace in the "stucco" stage...my wife wanted me to stop there and skip adding the flagstone. I guess I am more of a traditionalist when it comes to how a fireplace should look. I don't like those tiled or "clean-look" (contemporary is probably the right word) fireplaces. To me they should be rugged and built from stone.

Chris