I thought a Contractor Saw, now I'm thinking Hybrid

[Charles Wilson]

Well, I posted earlier in regards to purchasing a contractor saw. Well, I was watching Norm (or as my daughter refers to him, 'Normal') and was inspired by the hybrid that he was showing off.

So, anyone have any comments as to a good Hybrid Saw? I was looking pretty hard at a Grizzly and the Delta (leaning toward the Griz).

Opinions welcome.

Regards,
Chuck

[Doug Hoffman]

I would go with the G0478 from Grizzly.

[Art Mann]

Judging from the huge amount of message traffic on the subject, the most popular hybrid saw right now is the Craftsman model 22124, and it's almost identical twin from Steel City. Both saws are manufactured by Orion IIRC. I read a good review of the Grizzly hybrid but haven't read much about it from actual owners. Reports on the Delta have not been all that favorable, but that may or may not be significant.

I suggest you do a search on this board and others for "22124".

[glenn bradley]

I looked at the Griz and the Delta along with others. Having had contractor saws, the cabinet mounted trunnions pushed me to the Orion / Sears 22124. If you have not struggled with the alignment scenario on table mounted trunnions this is probably moot. It was a personal thing for me. Once set, you should very rarely have to align again regardless of configuration.

If you can't get a great deal on the Sears as comes along now and again (list price is too high); either the Griz or the Delta would be great with the Beisemeyer option. That being said, many folks have the Delta T-2 fence option and like it very much.

[Charles Wilson]

Any information on the Steel City Tool Works 35601 10" 1-3/4hp Hybrid Table Saw?

I found a pretty good deal, no tax, and $100 rebate.

Comments? Opinions?

Regards,
Chuck

[Laurie Brown]

Well, I posted earlier in regards to purchasing a contractor saw. Well, I was watching Norm (or as my daughter refers to him, 'Normal') and was inspired by the hybrid that he was showing off.

So, anyone have any comments as to a good Hybrid Saw? I was looking pretty hard at a Grizzly and the Delta (leaning toward the Griz).

Opinions welcome.

Regards,
Chuck

I have the one Norm was showing off in his shop, and I'm nothing but happy with it. I did get a really good deal on it, though. I recorded that table saw episode to put on DVD for myself, and was eager to build the outfeed table he built, until I noticed that he has the Biesmeyer fence on his, while mine has the Delta T2. The L bracke on the back of the saw for my fence is reversed, so I can't mount a table the same way he did. Grrrr.

[Corey Hallagan]

The T2 fence is what my Contractors saw has and I love the fence. It's the best part of the saw I think!

Corey

[Curt Harms]

Any information on the Steel City Tool Works 35601 10" 1-3/4hp Hybrid Table Saw?

I found a pretty good deal, no tax, and $100 rebate.

Comments? Opinions?

Regards,
Chuck

I have no personal experience but that doesn't prevent having an opinion (you know what they say about opinions:rolleyes: ) I've heard the steel city saw is like the Craftsman/Orion but with a little higher quality components. This wouldn't surprise me given Sears/Craftsman's history. There have been several positive posts about Steel City's customer service and I don't remember any negative posts so Steel City would be on my short list if I were in the market.

HTH

Curt

[Laurie Brown]

The T2 fence is what my Contractors saw has and I love the fence. It's the best part of the saw I think!

Corey

Don't get me wrong, I love my T2 fence! It's WAY better than the crappy one on my old Crapsman saw. I was surprised when I found out the rail was upside-down from the way the Bies rail goes on, though.

[Paul Johnstone]

Laurie..

I didn't see the episode, but there's no need to have the outfeed table attached to the saw. Mine is a seperate free standing table about 6" inches behind the saw. It doubles as a workbench and sheet good storage underneath.

[Charles Wilson]

Pardon me for being nieve but what is the benefit of having cabinet mounted trunnions? I believe that the Grizz and the Delta have trunnions that are mounted to the table while the Steel City and the Craftsman have the trunnions that are mounted to the cabinet.

As for Steel City, I realize that they are the new kid on the block. I know that no one can tell the future but how are they doing financially and are they expected to stick around?

Regards,
Chuck

[Laurie Brown]

Laurie..

I didn't see the episode, but there's no need to have the outfeed table attached to the saw. Mine is a seperate free standing table about 6" inches behind the saw. It doubles as a workbench and sheet good storage underneath.

I have a good sized assembly/worktable that I use, and I'm going to simply raise that up to the same height as the saw and use it for outfeed as well. I'm going to modify my old saw table, which is on wheels and made from MDF, by adding a second storage unit on top of it also the same height as my new saw, and use that for infeed support the way Norm used that workbench in the episode. That should let me handle sheet goods much better when I'm working alone (95% of the time).

[glenn bradley]

As for being a cousin to the 22124; the number / parts / service for the zip code saws and the SCTW saws is answered by the same person at their common depot. . . close family.

[glenn bradley]

Table mounted trunnions are adjusted by moving the blade and motor assembly while it hangs from the table. I've had contractors saws and was able to adjust them quite well (takes some patience but definitely do-able). Cabinet mounted trunnions allow alignment by loosening a few bolts and shifting the table top; very quick and easy. Again, once adjusted, this is not something you'll do very often.

[scott spencer]

Pardon me for being nieve but what is the benefit of having cabinet mounted trunnions? I believe that the Grizz and the Delta have trunnions that are mounted to the table while the Steel City and the Craftsman have the trunnions that are mounted to the cabinet.

As for Steel City, I realize that they are the new kid on the block. I know that no one can tell the future but how are they doing financially and are they expected to stick around?

Regards,
Chuck

I could probably live with any of the better hybrids with a full enclosure and Biese type fence, but I do see distinct benefits of the cab mounted trunnions of the 22124 or 35601....they also have a 35606 3hp version. Not sure about the 35601, but the 22124 has a 44" wide CI surface which is nice. I've been very pleased with the 22124.

The cab mounted trunnions are easier to align, and it's easier to get to the bolts....ever try to reach the front trunnion bolts of a saw with table mounted trunnions? The cab mounted trunnions also add considerable mass because of their sheer size.

I can understand your concern about the SC being new, but I don't know as though I'd let it stop me from a good deal....their service has a stellar reputation and Orion's already been around for about 6 years IIRC, and they appear to be making a splash. The 5 year warranty has some appeal too.

The Griz and the GI both have a one piece cast blade shroud which is a more elegant solution than the beefed up connecting rods on the SC and 22124. The Griz's motor appears to have a higher amp draw which might be a concern depending on your available circuit. You might also want to check into what motor replacement entails....I don't believe that either uses a standard off the shelf NEMA 56 frame, so you'd need a proprietary replacement or a rebuild in case of failure outside of the warranty.

Good luck!

[Vernon Taylor]

I could probably live with any of the better hybrids with a full enclosure and Biese type fence, but I do see distinct benefits of the cab mounted trunnions of the 22124 or 35601....they also have a 35606 3hp version. Not sure about the 35601, but the 22124 has a 44" wide CI surface which is nice. I've been very pleased with the 22124.

The cab mounted trunnions are easier to align, and it's easier to get to the bolts....ever try to reach the front trunnion bolts of a saw with table mounted trunnions? The cab mounted trunnions also add considerable mass because of their sheer size.

I can understand your concern about the SC being new, but I don't know as though I'd let it stop me from a good deal....their service has a stellar reputation and Orion's already been around for about 6 years IIRC, and they appear to be making a splash. The 5 year warranty has some appeal too.

The Griz and the GI both have a one piece cast blade shroud which is a more elegant solution than the beefed up connecting rods on the SC and 22124. The Griz's motor appears to have a higher amp draw which might be a concern depending on your available circuit. You might also want to check into what motor replacement entails....I don't believe that either uses a standard off the shelf NEMA 56 frame, so you'd need a proprietary replacement or a rebuild in case of failure outside of the warranty.

Good luck!This is what bothers me about Hybrids, When you get into proprietary motors replacement becomes an issue both in terms of future availability and cost.

[scott spencer]

This is what bothers me about Hybrids, When you get into proprietary motors replacement becomes an issue both in terms of future availability and cost. Many of the hybrids use a standard NEMA 56 frame. AFAIK, the GI and Griz are the only proprietary frames, and even those can be rewound....motor failure isn't too common anyway, so I doubt I'd give it too much influence in a buying decision. Just a "nice to know" consideration IMO.

[Charles Wilson]

One of the reasons that I was looking particulary at the Steel City Hybrid was the 5 year warranty. This is also why I asked how they were doing financially as the warranty means nothing if the place goes out of business.

Scott, I know that you are pleased with your 22124 but from all of the talk that I hear around here in general about Craftsman it makes me a little nervous.

This will probably be a saw that I will use a LONG time and I want to make the right decision. Unless I decide to go with the 3 hp that is about $100 more per internet retailer.

BTW - Scott, can you give me the pros/cons of the 22124 saw that you are using? If you have already posted a link would be great.

BTWW - Other than Epinions, are there any articles, web sites, or personal experiences that anyone could share about Steel City?

Regards,

Chuck

[glenn bradley]

I don't think SCTW is going anywhere but, what do I know. The zip code saw is an Orion sold by Sears so a lot of the C-man rules don't apply. Actually, ALL the C-man rules do apply; find out who makes that thing with the Craftsman badge on it.

I have the 22124 so pro's and con's:

I don't like the red plastic knobs and motor cover. SCTW made their's black.
I didn't bother with the supplied outfeed table; too small to bother with.
The miter gauge is way better than many stock ones but I use an Incra.

I like the cast iron wings; easy to align and I added an additional one to the right as the supplied Beisemeyer extension was poor.
Seems more powerful than the advertised 1 3/4 HP.
Big 'stop' switch with circuit breaker.
90* and 45* stops are solid and trustworthy once set.
Love the Bies fence.
Dust collection with a 1HP Delta and a trashcan separator is quite good.
Will run 220 if you want.

The SCTW's fit and finish was not as good BUT, I understand from posts here this has been addressed and they are beautiful right out of the box now.

[scott spencer]

I felt the same way about the Craftsman name when I swapped my GI for it! :eek: ... but have been pretty impressed with Orion too. Sears was actually very good to me. Sears has a more diverse lineup than any retailer I can think of, so people tend to lump the quality of their $14 drills with their $1000 table saws and it doesn't equate. Craftsman also has a Bosch made 1617 and a few other tools that are absolutely fine. I do find their Orion made tools and even their Rikon (Richen enterprise) made bandsaws to be excellent value for a hobbyist. I take each tool on it's own merits.

Pros (IMHO):
- the commercial Biese fence is sturdier than my GI "Homeshop" Biese
- long rails can easily slide right for 10" more capacity
- 44" wide CI surface
- 16" laminate extension table is a nice feature
- easy alignment (lends to the perceived ripping power)
- serpentine drive belt
- full enclosure
- 425# of mass and stability
- price (YMMV)
- outfeed table is a nice extra and works ok
- miter gauge bar adj., clamp, and fence are nice features
- plenty of power with good blade selection
- aftermarket inserts are readily available
- "thigh kick" off paddle is a very nice feature
- packaging and metal crate were excellent
- that little yellow align-a-cut button is nice to have
- has a standard NEMA 56 motor should I ever need to replace it

Cons:
- plastic wheel handles... I got used to them, but I did upgrade one
- miter gauge protractor is no more accurate than most stock gauges
- the outfeed table isn't as sturdy as a good shop built table
- the name gets knocked alot (:rolleyes: sometimes its fun, sometimes not...)
- the plastic motor cover never bothered me, but I don't like the fact that they skipped every other hinge screw.
- 1 year standard warranty (though I haven't needed more)
- the 16" laminate extension table isn't a great design and can warp
- the Commercial Biese is heavier than my GI "Homeshop" Biese

Many of the minor features aren't enough to sway the decision much IMO (bells and whistles) ...the Biese and the cab trunnions are the biggies to me. The Epinions link I posted before is my review and has more detail if you didn't read it.
http://www.epinions.com/22124 (http://www.epinions.com/content_184778395268)

[Barry Anderson]

I've the 22124, myself. I've been running it for about 2 years. It has been good to me. I use a normal kerf blade on it with plenty of power. I've mine setup for 220V to decrease the IR drop in the motor (runs cooler). I set this thing up 2 years ago in about 2 hours and it has been spot on ever since. I looked at the SC hybrid at the Baltimore WW show. Nice machine, but the SC guy told me they were the same machine. Only thing I really liked over the 22124 is that you could get a 3 hp motor ... even though I've not had any problems with the 1 3/4 on mine.

This saw may say "Craftsmen" on it ... but it is far better than the Delta or General hybrids (IMHO). You can also get it with significat discounts if you are looking. I got mine for about $800 with a few discounts and rebates. A great price for a great saw.

Barry in WV

[Scott D Johnson]

I purchased the Craftsman 22104 (sale $449) lower end model of the 22114 and got a Bies 7' rails and fence on sale at Amazon for ($219).

I got rid of the "stamped steel wings" and built an extension table out of 2x6, 3/4" melamine and 3/4" frame. Just got my WWII blade resharpened, also bought a dedicated Freud crosscut and dedicated Freud Rip blade, already owned the Freud 6" dado set.

Couldn't be happier.

[Ed Blough]

Be very careful with what you think is important.

Everyone hollers cabinet mounted trunions.

However what is really important is what runs between the two trunions.

The best saws have a one piece casting that runs between each trunion and supports the arbor. The less percise saws use multiple pieces, usually 3 or more small castings supported by two or more steel tubes or bars.

How this is made will determine how much deflection you will have. I have seen these bars and castings flex and move as wood is passed through the saw. It is shocking to be able to see the actual movement.

Take a long screw driver or rod and hold it firmly on the arbor and being very careful to keep the screw drive rod from the blade turn the machine on and off and watch the movement. If you can safetly do it do the same thing while someone runs a piece of wood through you saw.

Also many people will tell you never to use the bevel on you saw because of what is known as heeling.

Heeling is when the bevel is being adjusted and instead of the the multiple pieces moving in unison they are racking. The blade will end up out of parallel with the fence and solving the problem is a problem. You have to try to get all the rack out of the tubes/bars and then readjust the blade parallel to the fence.

You do this with absolutely no assurance that the tubes won't rack again the next time you adjust for bevel.

To check for heeling set the blade at 90 and make it parallel to the fence then begin to crank in some bevel and if the blade twists out of parallel. I have seen some you can actually see if you watch closely.

Personally I perfer the trunions on table, it is more solid. If they are mounted on the cabinet and then the table is mounted on the cabinet you have one more place for slippage and one more place for flex.

But I really don't worry about where the trunions are mounted I worry about what is running between them. That is the difference between a good saw and an excellent saw.

[Charles Wilson]

Wow. Just when I think that I am coming to a decision, I get more information. This is propbably a good thing.

Here is my short list:

Ridgid TS 3650 - good reviews, people seem generally happy, dado problem fixed, lots of magazine reviews that were good

Delta Contractor - good reviews (especially with upgraded fence)

Delta Hybrid - at first, reviews were not so good. they have improved since the first generation saw came out. Saw it on the NYW and was pretty impressed with the saw when Norm ran a sheet of MDF through it

Craftsman 22124 Hybrid - people seem to like the saw, haven't really seen a bad review on it, lots of magazines reviews that were good, I am not sold still

Steel City - made by Orion, virtually the same as 22124 with supposedly "higher end components", 5 year warranty is nice, no local retailer so I can't see the saw and am not sure what kind of problems this would make with the warranty

Grizzly Hybrid - reviews are hit and miss, people say customer service is great and more of the higher end machines they sell are pretty good for the money

My limiting factors are this:

1) I plan on using the saw for construction for stuff for the kids (book shelf, play house, dresser, bed) and for around the house (picket fence, furniture, etc.)

2) I will be working in a 2 1/2 stall garage. I probably can use as much space as I need in there since this is the only place that I have of my own. However, I will be a 3 season hobbyist woodworker as there is no heat. I currently have 110v in there but could upgrade to 220v with really no problems. No dust collection yet but have one large bay door, smaller bay door, window, and door. I was planning on using open air ventilation with fans for now and a shop vac. Concerned about rusting and such as I live in upstate NY.

3) My wife gave me the go ahead to purchase the saw (even though I run the finances, it is wise to get approval). I probably could get a SawStop if I wanted and she wouldn't say anything BUT since she is being "nice" I thought I would make a reasonablly priced purchase (considering that I am a novice and she really being pretty understanding). I would love to drive a Rolls Royce (SawStop) but am a just an average Joe who drives a VW (saws that I listed). I am limiting my purchase to around $1000. (I know, people will say get the Grizz 1023SL or the low-end Unisaw for just a couple of $ more. I am not sure if I need that much saw.)

So, where am I now? More confused and cautious about my potential purchase.

Anyone have any more opinions to help me sort things out?

Regards,
Chuck

[Brian Dormer]

I have a 22114 - very happy with it. I was able to ajdust it to dead on accurate. My dial guage indicates < .001 error in the blade/miter slot/ rip fence alignment. Dust collection (with just a 1 HP DC) is fantastic. Just be aware that the sucker is BIG and HEAVY. Solid cast iron table and wings (no el-cheapo stamped steel here) It's not a one (or maybe even two) man job to move it. I wish it had a Biesmeyer fence - but the stock fence hasn't let me down (other than it's just dumb to have 24/25 rip capacity - 12 / 32 makes way more sense). It's easy enough to slide the fence over and correct that oversight. Best part (for a small shop) is that the motor doesn't stick out the back - it's tucked under the right wing.