New Product: Grizzly Jointer/Planer Combo

[Matt Lentzner]

I just got my 2007 Grizzly catalog today and lo' and behold they will be offering a 12" jointer/planer combination machine in May of this year.

Here's the rundown:
5 HP Motor 220V
Jointer Table 60" (a little on the short side)
675 lbs. (light compared to it's peers)
G0633 $1795 standard head
G0634 $2295 spiral head
shipping $139 ConUS

I'm having very ambivalent feelings about this machine. One the one hand, for someone like me with limited space it is great. Also having a 12" jointer to match the 12" planer makes oh so much sense. Matched with a 12" resaw height on a bandsaw and the world just seems in synch. Getting a two for one price-wise is also nice.

Of course, on the other hand, I am skeptical. Machines that try to do too much often don't do anything well. To use the planer you have to flip the jointer tables up. Looks like a nightmare waiting to happen trying to keep the tables lined up if you are always moving them.

Grizzly seems to be really stretching out and trying to innovate. I applaud that. But the skeptic in me wants to wait and see. I hope it is all that and a bag of chips, but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't.

Is there any buzz out there on this machine?

Regards,

Matt

[Mike K Wenzloff]

This is a standard configuration in Europe. I suspect Griz spent a lot of time looking at those machines and will have the quality they build into their tools.

For that price, if I went powered again, I would look hard at one.

Take care, Mike

[Wilbur Pan]

I have a 10" jointer/planer combo made by Rikon. There were two reasons I got this machine. The first was space. The second was that I now have the capacity to joint 10" wide boards for $650. And I agree that it doesn't make sense that my bandsaw that can resaw 10" should be matched with a jointer with a 6" capacity, which is where my budget was at the time.

A common criticism of this type of machine is that the length of a board that you can joint is limited due to a short bed. The bed on my machine is 40" long. So far, I've been able to joint wood up to 6' in length, and with an outfeed stand of some sort, I bet I could extend this capacity, although I haven't tried this yet. Using the "double the infeed+outfeed" rule, you would be "limited" to boards that are about 80" in length. That's 6' 8". I don't know how many projects require a board that long other than floor to ceiling bookcases. And even so, with some auxilliary support you could joint a longer board. My neighbor has an old Inca 10" jointer/planer, and he was able to build a nearly floor to ceiling Federal-style corner cabinet with it.

Apparently the model I got is off the market for now. Rikon is coming out with a newer model with cast iron beds, instead of the aluminum table that mine has.

But if you have the space and budget for a 12" jointer/planer combo, I would definitely give one a try.

[Jim Becker]

There are two previous threads on this here at SMC that you might find useful.

Grizzly isn't really innovating here as was previously mentioned...many of us use Euro J/P combos from Mini Max, Felder, Hammer, etc. Inca and Hitachi have also had combos, although of a different physical format.

[Jim Flynn]

Matt, If they have copied the design style of the European J/Ps this should be an intriguing option at an aggressive price point. My MiniMax combo uses this style and jointer table alignment has never been an issue at all.

[Frank Martin]

I too found the Grizzly offering very interesting not primarily from a price point but mainly from a feature/design perspective. It has a carbide insert spiral cutterhead and the fence is mounted in the middle, not at the infeed table like the Hammer and MiniMax offerings. All of this at a very attractive price made it even more interesting.

Not having own or seen any Grizzly machinery, I too was skeptical about the overall fit, finish and tolerance of manufacturing. I expressed these concerns to the President of Grizzly, Shiraz, and I was ensured it is on par with the Hammer, MiniMax units.

I will provide a review of this machine once I receive mine.:)

[Ted Miller]

I was ensured it is on par with the Hammer, MiniMax units.

Frank, So far the equipment I have used and the one machine I own by Grizzly, I do not agree with his statement. I am in no way saying his equipment is not good, but it is not Europeon machinery in any way, that is MHO.

On this unit jointer/planer, I just do not see how the beds can flip up and down and still stay co planar and not twist after years of use...

[Steve Rowe]

I expressed these concerns to the President of Grizzly, Shiraz, and I was ensured it is on par with the Hammer, MiniMax units.
:)

I have to agree with Ted on this one. Stating that a Grizzly is on par with Hammer & Minimax is like saying that a Yugo is on par with a BMW. I have owned a number of Grizzly machines (now down to one) and several European made machines of different brands this assessment is based on my experiences with both. The Grizzly machines aren't even in the same league as any of the European made machines I have owned. The only advantage I see to Grizzly is lower pricing. Fit and finish of my Grizzlies have been mediocre to poor. Manufacturing tolerances with Grizzly - acceptable for the most part but in some cases marginally so.
Steve

[Frank Martin]

Which Grizzly machine is your experience based on? What are the specific areas you didn't like?

Shiraz's comment about Grizzly quality was in reference to the specific combo machine (G0634), not their entire line. To me it seems like they have two lines of machinery, one with low prices, not premium quality, another one with higher prices and very good quality and customer feedback (e.g., the "ultimate" line). Typically the reviews I have seen so far was very good for their higher-end "ultimate" line. I realize G0634 is no Felder, but I expect it to be as good as the Hammer, MiniMax machines (12" jointer/planer combos) in terms of manufacturing quality, but better in terms of features.

One of my concerns was exactly about the jointer tables returning coplanar after switching modes. This is the common design feature for Grizzly and other Euro machines. If executed well it apparently works fine, proof being many happy users of Euro combo machines.
As far as the Grizzly machine, I was ensured that Grizzly paid special attention and did precision manufacturing to ensure the beds return coplanar every time.

I really have high expectations for the Grizzly machine, if it really turns out there are issues with machining, not so smooth operation, beds not returning coplanar every time, etc., I will be one extremely unhappy first and last time Grizzly customer. However, I am expecting/hoping otherwise based on my communication with Shiraz. Honestly, price point alone was not my deciding factor. It was more the spiral cutter head and center mounted fence.


Frank, So far the equipment I have used and the one machine I own by Grizzly, I do not agree with his statement. I am in no way saying his equipment is not good, but it is not Europeon machinery in any way, that is MHO.

On this unit jointer/planer, I just do not see how the beds can flip up and down and still stay co planar and not twist after years of use...

[Todd Solomon]

Which Grizzly machine is your experience based on? What are the specific areas you didn't like?

Shiraz's comment about Grizzly quality was in reference to the specific combo machine (G0634), not their entire line. To me it seems like they have two lines of machinery, one with low prices, not premium quality, another one with higher prices and very good quality and customer feedback (e.g., the "ultimate" line). Typically the reviews I have seen so far was very good for their higher-end "ultimate" line. I realize G0634 is no Felder, but I expect it to be as good as the Hammer, MiniMax machines (12" jointer/planer combos) in terms of manufacturing quality, but better in terms of features.

I really have high expectations for the Grizzly machine, if it really turns out there are issues with machining, not so smooth operation, beds not returning coplanar every time, etc., I will be one extremely unhappy first and last time Grizzly customer. However, I am expecting/hoping otherwise based on my communication with Shiraz. Honestly, price point alone was not my deciding factor. It was more the spiral cutter head and center mounted fence.

Hi Frank,

I agree with you that Grizzly makes some nice stuff in their industrial line. I have the G9860 Ultimate 12" Jointer, and I would say it is of similar quality to my Mini Max equipment. It is true industrial quality. And I really hope that the new 12" Grizzly jointer-planer is of that high quality as well. But it takes money to acheive that level of quality. More expensive motors, bearings, heavier castings, Etc. My 12" jointer costs $3150, the 12" combo jointer-planer costs $1795. The combo is not identified as part of their industrial line, it's price doesn't reflect it, and I would not expect it to perform at the level of a euro jointer-planer. However, it may be an exceptional machine for the money. Grizzly has hit a lot of home runs, so I hope that this combo j-p really impresses.

Todd

[Frank Martin]

Stating that a Grizzly is on par with Hammer & Minimax is like saying that a Yugo is on par with a BMW. Steve

Steve,
Is your experience based on the "higher-end" Grizzly machines or the "lower-end"?

Honestly, Shiraz's response to my question regarding price being non-issue which machine would you pick among the Hammer, MiniMax, and Grizzly was "You would pick our's everytime". He also said "the lower price does not mean cheap machine, it is related to where it is made". I trust these are not just to promote his product but an objective assessment. If not for sure I am not on the right path. If it turns out it is a "Yugo" I sure will be extremely unhappy, because I am "BMW" kind of guy and I sort of made this clear to Shiraz.

[Steve Rowe]

Steve,
Is your experience based on the "higher-end" Grizzly machines or the "lower-end"?

Honestly, Shiraz's response to my question regarding price being non-issue which machine would you pick among the Hammer, MiniMax, and Grizzly was "You would pick our's everytime". He also said "the lower price does not mean cheap machine, it is related to where it is made". I trust these are not just to promote his product but an objective assessment. If not for sure I am not on the right path. If it turns out it is a "Yugo" I sure will be extremely unhappy, because I am "BMW" kind of guy and I sort of made this clear to Shiraz.

I have had 3 Grizzlies. One low end and two mid range and all purchased in the mid-1990's to around 2000 year range. None of these were higher end and I have learned my lesson - I now never buy on price alone. It is my understanding that Grizzly has improved their quality since then. My past experiences however, will preclude me from even testing those waters again. With respect to choosing a machine, I am sure you would hear the same (i.e. - "you would pick ours everytime") from both Hammer and MiniMax on their respective machines.

I am very skeptical about those who gain financially from selling a particular machine as having an "objective assessment." Remember - caveat emptor. I sincerely hope your experience is good with this machine.

Steve

[Shiraz Balolia]

Steve,
Is your experience based on the "higher-end" Grizzly machines or the "lower-end"?

Honestly, Shiraz's response to my question regarding price being non-issue which machine would you pick among the Hammer, MiniMax, and Grizzly was "You would pick our's everytime". He also said "the lower price does not mean cheap machine, it is related to where it is made". I trust these are not just to promote his product but an objective assessment. If not for sure I am not on the right path. If it turns out it is a "Yugo" I sure will be extremely unhappy, because I am "BMW" kind of guy and I sort of made this clear to Shiraz.

Just to clarify - the question asked of me was "would you pick the G06034 over the equivalent MM 12" .."
My answer was based on having taken the 12" MM apart and seen the insides of the MM 12", and the answer remains the same. I have not seen a Hammer up close and so do not have a comparison to make.
Frank - I am sure that you will give a "Frank" opinion on this machine when you get it :) . The naysayers will be waiting in earnest!

[Matt Lentzner]

I guess it's pretty obvious how green I am. I've been reading a lot and never ran across a J/P combo machine before. I'd only seen the Euro combos that also had a table saw and who know's what else. It wasn't obvious to me that they had jointers and planers in there too.

Anyway, I'm really glad I found SMC. It has been a gold mine of knowledge. Thanks to everyone for their help and patience. I was a little dismayed to see that this very same machine had been just a few weeks ago discussed already.

Regards and Thanks,

Matt

[Jim Becker]

I was a little dismayed to see that this very same machine had been just a few weeks ago discussed already.

Don't be dismayed about that, Matt!!! And don't misconstrue my previous post as meaning "we already talked about it." It was a pointer to you that there is a rich body of information at SMC and that you might enjoy reading the previous dialog in addition to that generated in this new thread. :)

[Brian Ross]

I don't have any particular brand loyality but did purchase the Grizzly extreme series 17 inch bandsaw last year. Never got it fired up until a couple of weeks ago. I kind of chuckled at the word Extreme while looking through their catalogue but I have been impressed all to heck with this saw. I bought it for resawing 5/4 material for drawer boxes. I installed a good quality blade and it will cut threw 10 inches oak like butter. I attend a lot of wood shows and marvelled at the guys demoing bandsaw blades and how they could rip a 1/16th inch thick strip from a 10 inch wide board, I can now do that. The quality of the castings are second to none which was the first thing that impressed me while unpacking it. Is it as good as a 18 inch Mini Max, never but it will do everything I need and more and at a lot less money. Five years ago I would never have dreamed that I would purchase an off shore machine. The more I look at the Chinese and Taiwan machines it is becoming hard to deny the quality. Altendorf now have a factory in China and I am sure they are not there to produce a second rate saw. Just my ramblings and a good weekend to all.
Brian

[Frank Martin]

Shiraz,

Thanks for responding here to clarify things a bit.

Based on all the reviews I have seen the Hammer and MM 12" units are very similar in build quality with MM possibly leading with a little egde.

Based on your answer (regarding Grizzly vs. MM 12") I am expecting that that the quality of casting, machining tolerances, smoothness of operation, jointer tables remaining coplanar, etc., of the Grizzly unit will be on par with the MM 12" unit. I hope I did not misunderstand what you said, if so please correct me.

I sure will provide a very frank review once I receive the machine.



Just to clarify - the question asked of me was "would you pick the G06034 over the equivalent MM 12" .."
My answer was based on having taken the 12" MM apart and seen the insides of the MM 12", and the answer remains the same. I have not seen a Hammer up close and so do not have a comparison to make.
Frank - I am sure that you will give a "Frank" opinion on this machine when you get it :) . The naysayers will be waiting in earnest!

[Paul B. Cresti]

Just to clarify - the question asked of me was "would you pick the G06034 over the equivalent MM 12" .."
My answer was based on having taken the 12" MM apart and seen the insides of the MM 12", and the answer remains the same. I have not seen a Hammer up close and so do not have a comparison to make.
Frank - I am sure that you will give a "Frank" opinion on this machine when you get it :) . The naysayers will be waiting in earnest!

Interesting.....so you admitt that you took apart another company's machine and then come out with your own that looks a lot like it....Boy do I have problems with that on so many different levels but then again that is my opinion. I think the true test of any machines worth & quality is dependability over time. The true test of any company is the complete understanding of their product and how to support it for the end user...

[Chris Barton]

Interesting.....so you admitt that you took apart another company's machine and then come out with your own that looks a lot like it....Boy do I have problems with that on so many different levels but then again that is my opinion.

Hi Paul,

I don't think examining what many believe to be the best in the industry to look for ways to provide a good machine is problematic. I have taken apart several antiques and examined pictures of furniture that I have used as guides for my projects and that doesn't equal patent infringement or copyright infringement. Companies all over the world do this and I am sure that MM does as well. Learning what works well and trying to emulate success doesn't have to be an ethical issue...

[Paul B. Cresti]

Hi Paul,

I don't think examining what many believe to be the best in the industry to look for ways to provide a good machine is problematic. I have taken apart several antiques and examined pictures of furniture that I have used as guides for my projects and that doesn't equal patent infringement or copyright infringement. Companies all over the world do this and I am sure that MM does as well. Learning what works well and trying to emulate success doesn't have to be an ethical issue...

Hey Chris,
Well just because "Companies all over the world do this" does not make it ethical in my view. In my day job, if one of us thought of it or got caught copying someone else's design or drawing set....well a big lawsuit would most likely follow. In the other hand I do agree with the idea that refinement does happen with looking into the past but outright copying is just plain unethical in my book. What you do for your own personal use is fine but one company sitting back and simply copying or "borrowing" ideas from another company's time tested design and then suddenly coming out with their own "design" and selling it for profit, I feel is just plain robbery. If this entire country was based upon "borrowing" ideas nothing would ever truly be created, leaps in technology or just plain innovation would have died a long long time ago. Capitalism at its best is all it is......

[Ron Kellison]

I am in the process of changing out the 110V Craftsman machines in my shop, installing a sub-panel and going 220V for all of my soon-to-be-acquired heavier machines. As my workshop is a 2-car garage space will always be at a premium. This machine interests me, but it also raises a question. When I feed a board into the jointer, the blades rotate toward the workpiece from underneath, i.e., against the feed direction. On a combo machine like this, does that mean that I feed the wood into the planer from the opposite end in order to keep the wood from being yanked through the planer with a climb cut?

[Matthew Batarseh]

yes, feed direction is from opposite ends of a J/P for the different functions

[Art Mann]

Hey Chris,
Well just because "Companies all over the world do this" does not make it ethical in my view. In my day job, if one of us thought of it or got caught copying someone else's design or drawing set....well a big lawsuit would most likely follow. In the other hand I do agree with the idea that refinement does happen with looking into the past but outright copying is just plain unethical in my book. What you do for your own personal use is fine but one company sitting back and simply copying or "borrowing" ideas from another company's time tested design and then suddenly coming out with their own "design" and selling it for profit, I feel is just plain robbery. If this entire country was based upon "borrowing" ideas nothing would ever truly be created, leaps in technology or just plain innovation would have died a long long time ago. Capitalism at its best is all it is......

I don't know what industry you work in, but in the automotive industry, the teardown and examination of a competitor's product is just routine. I know because I have seen elements of my own designs copied by other comapnies during our disections. Every major product on the market today is a copy and extension of the design of someone else, to one degree or another. To carry your arguement to its logical conclusion, there would only be one brand of tablesaw, bandsaw, planer or any other machine because some compnay was always the first and every other company is copying the original to a large extent. We have patent laws to protect true innovators, but if the protection lasted forever, then you would have no competition and very little innovation.

[Paul B. Cresti]

I don't know what industry you work in, but in the automotive industry, the teardown and examination of a competitor's product is just routine. I know because I have seen elements of my own designs copied by other comapnies during our disections. Every major product on the market today is a copy and extension of the design of someone else, to one degree or another. To carry your arguement to its logical conclusion, there would only be one brand of tablesaw, bandsaw, planer or any other machine because some compnay was always the first and every other company is copying the original to a large extent. We have patent laws to protect true innovators, but if the protection lasted forever, then you would have no competition and very little innovation.

First off I am an Architect and then a Woodworker...I pride myself in my own designs and soutions. Have I looked at others work and say, "Wow great idea or execution"?...yes I have. Have I ever purchased someone else's product just to rip it apart so I can duplicate it? no I have not nor will I ever want to do that either.

No I am not talking about ONE table saw or ONE bandsaw...quite the opposite. I want truly different ones across the board. Just compare a European style machine vs an American...they all do the same thing but in a different manner. Some of the imported Asian equipment on the other hand, at least from what I have seen, is nothing other than a clone of someone else's design. Oh sure it is a different color or has a different button or two but it is made as close as it can be to the other companies machine but cheaper. Just pick a color and you can find your "different" machine. Oh but we as the public call this OK and say this is competition and good for us.....

[Don Bullock]

Brian,

Thank you for postinh this thread. I'm not at all interested in the "ethics" of the design. We have a court system that han handle that issue. I realize that a machine like this one, whether Grizzly or someone else, is most likely in my future. It looks so tempting in the catalog. I hope to see some reviews on them from people along the "Creek." If you, or anyone else does buy one, please post a review. I respect the opinions of the people here more than any other source.

[Joe Mioux]

Just out of curiosity,

What company DID invent the combo jointer/planer?

It also appears that all Euro-machines look similar as well. Who is stealing intellectual property whom?

I ask this question because I don't know the answer and would like to hear someone provide an answer.

I am not attempting to be provacative with these questions, just wanting to learn

thanks
JOe

[Jim Becker]

Joe, there have been combo machines on all sides of the oceans. Awhile back I saw a picture of a multi-station setup that used one motor for everything that was mounted on a single worksurface a few feet long...I think it may have been a Delta/Rockwell setup. In some sense, combos are quite logical, especially when the functions are complimentary as they are in a jointer/planer where there can be a high level of component sharing. It's not just the motor in that case, but also the cutterhead. Your question might be a good one in the OWM forums, too!

[Stan Welborn]

If companies didn't do this, it would be a stagnant monopolized world. No improvements to designs would ever be made unless the originators chose to do so. And why should they? There would be no competition for their product unless it was a totally different design. And, if that was the case, there would probably be only which had some innovative feature that made it so much better/cheaper/faster/...

Imagine a world where Ford had the only cars with power steering, Chevrolet had the only power brakes, Chrysler had the only automatic transmission.
Only one microwave oven manufacturer (wonder what it would cost?) Only one TV mfg? (still be black and white? No reason to improve it, no competition... :)) How slow would your computer be if no one ever diagnosed, copied, and improved on the technology of the ones manufactured in the 80's? No Internet for home use over 1200 baud rate? Take you 20-30 minutes to load a picture...

The list is endless.

[Paul B. Cresti]

If companies didn't do this, it would be a stagnant monopolized world. No improvements to designs would ever be made unless the originators chose to do so. And why should they? There would be no competition for their product unless it was a totally different design. And, if that was the case, there would probably be only which had some innovative feature that made it so much better/cheaper/faster/...

Imagine a world where Ford had the only cars with power steering, Chevrolet had the only power brakes, Chrysler had the only automatic transmission.
Only one microwave oven manufacturer (wonder what it would cost?) Only one TV mfg? (still be black and white? No reason to improve it, no competition... :)) How slow would your computer be if no one ever diagnosed, copied, and improved on the technology of the ones manufactured in the 80's? No Internet for home use over 1200 baud rate? Take you 20-30 minutes to load a picture...

The list is endless.

Why stop there? Lets allow our children to "borrow" ideas from one another. Why not let let literary's greatest works be made better, heck I could simplfy one of John Steinback's novels and make it "better" ....as stated in some arguements here there is a very fine line between innovation and "plagerism". Do not students get thrown out of universities for this? Wasn't there a term somewhere coined as "industrial espionage" ? In my opinion, dismantling someone else's product in order to come up with your own is nothing more that "plagerism" at its finest. Do not confuse "product development" with stealing. Wasn't human cloning kind of made illegal? Now there is an interesting concept ;)

[Bart Leetch]

While I may agree with good ethics.

To make an improvement to anything you have to have a base line to start with there are only so many way to make something that really works right. So some prefer to take an existing machine & improve it. The thought is really quite simple & has been going on since time began. From the sundial to the clock to a digital time piece.

Besides that you can beat & beat & beat a dead horse & you still have a dead horse. Nothing has changed. The horse is still dead.

We all have faults. There is an old saying remember while one finger is pointing at the other person 3 fingers are still pointing back at you.

[Noel Hegan]

Why stop there? Lets allow our children to "borrow" ideas from one another. Why not let let literary's greatest works be made better, heck I could simplfy one of John Steinback's novels and make it "better" ....as stated in some arguements here there is a very fine line between innovation and "plagerism". Do not students get thrown out of universities for this? Wasn't there a term somewhere coined as "industrial espionage" ? In my opinion, dismantling someone else's product in order to come up with your own is nothing more that "plagerism" at its finest. Do not confuse "product development" with stealing. Wasn't human cloning kind of made illegal? Now there is an interesting concept ;)

Paul, I think you're taking matters to extremes that make little sense. You've effectively accused a manufacturer/s of "stealing" and "copying" designs which is a crazy thing to say.
I seem to recall you're a big fan of Minimax machines. Do you seriously believe that the SCM factory in Italy have never aquired a competitor's product and taken the thing apart? Have never introduced a feature in their product line that already exists or is an improvement on other manufacturer's ideas? I suspect not. It's normal, acceptable and ethical practice to do so in my opinion. After all you can only improve and gain market advantage (through design, manufacture or useage) with a product by having intimate knowledge of the existing products on the market.
Regarding clones, tool wise, there are a few machines in my shop that I would not have been able to purchase if various manufacturers did not make their own less expensive but well made products that appear similar to other brands.

Rgds

Noel

[Stan Welborn]

This is too comical to even discuss. Let's just all go back to caveman days and only one guy has a sharp stick. We've never progressed any further, because nobody wanted to copy caveman Joe. :D LMAO. This thread is asinine.

[Nancy Laird]

Just out of curiosity,

What company DID invent the combo jointer/planer?



Joe, I don't know what company invented the combo machine, but we owned one (until a few weeks ago) made by Hitachi. It was a monster. We bought it used from the original owner in about 1990 - it originally sold for about $2800, and he had owned it for a number of years. Hitachi is Japanese, so the Europeans aren't the only ones who have manufactured and refined such machines. We got rid of it for two reasons: first, it was LOUD :eek:, even with hearing protection. Second, the infeed table had dropped about .05, which was not a big deal and it could have been easily fixed by a shim, but we decided to move to separate machines.

I suspect that anyone looking at the Hitachi, any Euro, and the new Grizzly would be hard-pressed to find any radical differences among them--after all, how many "innovations" can one make to a machine designed to do a specific job--planing and jointing lumber?

Just my 1.98.

Nancy

[Bruce Benjamin]

Paul, while I don't completely disagree with your objections to Papa Grizzly's admissions, your comparison of woodworking machines to literary works really is such a leap that it practically doesn't make sense. There are an infinite number of stories to be written and they all work as long as they are written in a recognized language and with proper grammar so that they can be read. The same can be said to a lessor extent of building designs. But if you want to make a wood working tool to perform a certain function or functions, then there are only a few practical ways to accomplish this. Want to write a crime novel? Without changing existing laws, there are certainly going to be some parts of a novel very similar to another crime novel. Designing a building? Are you telling me that you decided on making a room with 4 walls, a ceiling, and a floor with no outside influence. Brilliant! :D A planer/jointer has a number of moving parts. Look at two different brands and you're bound to find very close similarities in many of those parts and it's not just coincidence.

As much as it pains me to defend Papa Grizzly in any way, (I'm not a fan at all) he didn't say he took apart the MM machine to copy it. Although I suspect that was at least in part the purpose of taking it apart. I don't think Grizzly is capable of designing anything from scratch. I'd bet anyone would be hard pressed to find a single tool they sell that is unique in any significant way other than possibly how the features are bundled. But from what I got out of his post, he took the MM apart to see the quality. I also doubt that Grizzly is up to the MM quality but that remains to be seen. As somebody else said in this thread, any company will claim that their products are as good as or better than the competition.

In my opinion, taking apart a machine with the intent of copying it as closely as possible is wrong. But taking apart the same machine with the intent of seeing how it works and making improvements on it is less wrong. :rolleyes: I'm not really familiar with either the Grizzly or the MM design but I suspect that PG didn't try very hard to make significant improvements to the MM design. But it's not an exact copy either.

Bruce



Why stop there? Lets allow our children to "borrow" ideas from one another. Why not let let literary's greatest works be made better, heck I could simplfy one of John Steinback's novels and make it "better" ....as stated in some arguements here there is a very fine line between innovation and "plagerism". Do not students get thrown out of universities for this? Wasn't there a term somewhere coined as "industrial espionage" ? In my opinion, dismantling someone else's product in order to come up with your own is nothing more that "plagerism" at its finest. Do not confuse "product development" with stealing. Wasn't human cloning kind of made illegal? Now there is an interesting concept ;)

[Dan Lautner]

This Griz machine could be a very important milestone for equipment in the US. If you look at the Minimax website you will see a huge ad for $800 off their 12" j/p. Minimax is now responding to a similar machine at a much lower price. If the Griz machine is a success you better believe a 16" model will be in the works. I would personally love to see a compact sliding tablesaw with a riving knife in the $2500 range. Like it or not we live in a global economy and things will be manufactured wherever the company can maximize profits.

Dan

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Interesting.....so you admitt that you took apart another company's machine and then come out with your own that looks a lot like it....Boy do I have problems with that on so many different levels but then again that is my opinion. I think the true test of any machines worth & quality is dependability over time. The true test of any company is the complete understanding of their product and how to support it for the end user...

This is a very naive statment to me. I praise his honesty in making the statement in the first place. But why would any company start any design from "scratch" when there are well designed and evolved examples to learn from. It's not illegal unless something is patented so no laws were broken. Any company would be very reckless with it's stockholder's money to not learn as much as possible from the competition. Why shouldn't he do it when other much larger companies do it all the time? How do you think the Japanese got so good? They copied our designs and improved on them in every way they could. Now most people regard them as some of the best automobile builders in the world. So with respect I do not agree with your statement at all.

Oh, I almost forgot to add this: I own a MM16 bandsaw and could never get a flat table for it from the company. I had two and neither were flat. And I'm not just talking a little out of flat. To their credit they did offer to pay for a grinding. Good company there but where's the good quality to begin with?

[Glen Gunderson]

I don't really see the issue here. Grizzly bought a Minimax machine and then took it apart to see how it was made. I really don't see the big deal, and I'm sure it happens every day in the manufacturing industry.

If they were violating any patents or laws by doing so then I'm sure Minimax's lawyers would have been on the case (and I'm sure Grizzly's lawyers would ensure that this information wasn't divulged on a woodworkers forum).

Sure you can say "it's ethical if they examine Minimax's machine in order to make a better version, but that's not what Grizzly was doing." Well, I would guess they were taking it apart to see if they could make a machine of similar capabilities more economically. It's up to the consumer to determine if the corners they cut are worth the reduction in price. If it's a piece of junk, people won't buy it. However, if it is much like many of their other tools and is a fairly good machine for the money, I'm sure it will sell quite well to the segment of the marketplace who simply don't have $10,000 to spend on a jointer/planer.


To compare this to creative works is ridiculous, but if you insist, there are multitudes of examples of people who have used older works as a basis for new creations. The only time when this becomes an issue is when someone else owns the copyright to the original and the new version borrows sufficiently to violate that copyright. That obviously isn't the case with Grizzly or else I'm sure the case would already be before the courts.

[Wayne Watling]

I'm a Tecnomax (Minimax) combo owner and as soon as I saw the pic of the J/P I knew it was a knock-off. What is suprising is that a US company is listening and responding to the market place and good for them because if they keep that up they are going to do very well. I hope they do a full 5 function combo because these machines are ideal for a small hobbist shop and as it is the euro machines are way out of the price range for most hobbists.

[Noel Hegan]

I'm a Tecnomax (Minimax) combo owner and as soon as I saw the pic of the J/P I knew it was a knock-off. What is suprising is that a US company is listening and responding to the market place and good for them because if they keep that up they are going to do very well. I hope they do a full 5 function combo because these machines are ideal for a small hobbist shop and as it is the euro machines are way out of the price range for most hobbists.

Wayne, how can the Grizzly be a "knock-off" of the MM? There's at least 20 brands in Europe (including MM) that market such J/Ps or Planer Thicknessers as they are more commonly known in Europe and there's very little difference between them in design or format. Don't know who originally came up with the concept but I'm sure they've been around for at least 50 or 60 years.
I do agree with you that it is good to hear of a company being customer led.

[Christopher Stahl]

Shiraz didn't say anything about opening up an MM to copy it. Heck, I've been inside all my tools looking at their build quality. Just not worth jumping to conclusions.

One thing I will point out, the MM website seems to have plenty of used equipment forsale from other manufactures. I'm pretty sure it wasn't because it was dropped off at the wrong address by accident.

[thomas prevost]

I think the question of papa Griz designing a machine is remote. Most likely a manufacturers rep came to Griz with a machine they would like to have Griz retail. Then Griz research looked at other machines on the market and determined what would be the critical specs the manufacturtere would have to maintain to be of similar quality to that on the market and wrote those spec into the contract.

To give Papa Griz his due. The are not the manufacturers of machinery. But, what he has done over the years is to worked with manufacturers that were using out dated technology and poor raw materials to updgrade them to ISO approved facilities. This puts the manufacturing on par with any Euro machine as far as specs are concerned.

ISO approval is a very costly endvor and difficult to maintain. BUT it is the Euro standard for quality. Most Americans do not undertand ISO standards. Thus, it may be helpful for Papa Giz or some of the Euro contemperaries to educate us.

[Wayne Watling]

Wayne, how can the Grizzly be a "knock-off" of the MM? There's at least 20 brands in Europe (including MM) that market such J/Ps or Planer Thicknessers as they are more commonly known in Europe and there's very little difference between them in design or format. Don't know who originally came up with the concept but I'm sure they've been around for at least 50 or 60 years.
I do agree with you that it is good to hear of a company being customer led.

Noel, I never said it was an MM knock-off.

[Shiraz Balolia]

The MM was not the only European jointer/planer we took apart and examined, and no laws were broken. Like many have said, it is done all the time and by the best of them. I hardly think that MM invented the sliding table saw, the bandsaw and the Jointer/planer.

Personally, I am not a big fan of combination machines. The only reason we brought these on was due to the numerous requests we had from customers to offer a good quality combo machine that did not cost as much as the European machines. The labor cost in a particular country, value of the dollar against certain currencies, the company's idea of what it wants to make for a profit, the channels of trade that the machines move through etc.. all play a part in how much a product is priced. Yes, this machine was developed to compete directly with European makes, so you can be darn sure that we used techniques and components accordingly. The G0634 with the spiral cutterhead is priced aggressively (lower than it should be) to test the waters and I must say that the response to this machine has been great. I don't believe that MM even offers a J/P model with an indexable carbide spiral cutterhead.

[Jay Brewer]

Ive thought about this a little more, and though I dont agree with making a direct copy of another product ( im not saying this is the case here.) almost everything we own is a copy of something. Mini Max, Hammer and Felder only have to worry if this machine is as good or better than theirs, so far they have been pretty good at staying ahead of the imports, only time will tell. At less than half the price of the Mini Max it is compelling, and if it is a good machine I would say its a bargain.

[Paul B. Cresti]

The MM was not the only European jointer/planer we took apart and examined, and no laws were broken. Like many have said, it is done all the time and by the best of them. I hardly think that MM invented the sliding table saw, the bandsaw and the Jointer/planer.

Personally, I am not a big fan of combination machines. The only reason we brought these on was due to the numerous requests we had from customers to offer a good quality combo machine that did not cost as much as the European machines. The labor cost in a particular country, value of the dollar against certain currencies, the company's idea of what it wants to make for a profit, the channels of trade that the machines move through etc.. all play a part in how much a product is priced. Yes, this machine was developed to compete directly with European makes, so you can be darn sure that we used techniques and components accordingly. The G0634 with the spiral cutterhead is priced aggressively (lower than it should be) to test the waters and I must say that the response to this machine has been great. I don't believe that MM even offers a J/P model with an indexable carbide spiral cutterhead.

I am so glad that it is socially acceptable to profit on other people's designs. Also glad it is agreeable to so many to go to third world countries to produce products to undercut the countries that do pay and treat their employees with respect....oh but then again jobs are provided for people in this country right???

So go ahead and keep "inventing" and continuing that quest to bring the good people of this country good machines at fair prices....I applaud the mission. Oh forgot this is all in the name of furthering the technology of woodworking, yea thats right the "improvements" on these machines are helping the whole of mankind. Thank God we have people like this in this world otherwise the woodworking industry would be at a stand still and still using water powered mills.

Yes these "new" machines that so happen to "look" a lot like other brands, minus the color pallete, will be true earth shattering innovations in the industry. They will walk on water and process wood with accuracy and precision of the likes never known by man...because as the other people have said in reply to my posts this is all done in the advancement of technology.

Now lets see where in this thread have I made any personal attacks on anyone...glad no one else has done that. So I guess I will go back into my cave and continue to believe that it is not ethical to profit on other peoples work or designs. Heck I may never be rich monetarily but I will be rich where it matters. I will continue to work hard, teach my children right from wrong and be proud knowing that everything I achieve in life will be by my own efforts...hey I have this club on my head do you want it?

[Matt Meiser]

I'm sorry but I don't even believe most architects don't base their designs on others designs. It is easy to see how one building is influenced by another. If we started from scratch every time something was designed, engineered, researched, etc. where would we be?

[Joe Mioux]

Paul, what is Shiraz paying you?

What a discussion!

[Jim Becker]

Let's keep this civil, eveyone... ;)

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Hal Hanevik]

Good job Paul...
When all the jobs have been outsourced, and they bring in workers to do the jobs they can't ship out, what's gonna happen?
Simply because you can do a thing, does not mean you should do a thing...
When did america develop a walmart mentality... cheaper is all that matters?


I am so glad that it is socially acceptable to profit on other people's designs. Also glad it is agreeable to so many to go to third world countries to produce products to undercut the countries that do pay and treat their employees with respect....oh but then again jobs are provided for people in this country right???

So go ahead and keep "inventing" and continuing that quest to bring the good people of this country good machines at fair prices....I applaud the mission. Oh forgot this is all in the name of furthering the technology of woodworking, yea thats right the "improvements" on these machines are helping the whole of mankind. Thank God we have people like this in this world otherwise the woodworking industry would be at a stand still and still using water powered mills.

Yes these "new" machines that so happen to "look" a lot like other brands, minus the color pallete, will be true earth shattering innovations in the industry. They will walk on water and process wood with accuracy and precision of the likes never known by man...because as the other people have said in reply to my posts this is all done in the advancement of technology.

Now lets see where in this thread have I made any personal attacks on anyone...glad no one else has done that. So I guess I will go back into my cave and continue to believe that it is not ethical to profit on other peoples work or designs. Heck I may never be rich monetarily but I will be rich where it matters. I will continue to work hard, teach my children right from wrong and be proud knowing that everything I achieve in life will be by my own efforts...hey I have this club on my head do you want it?

[Bruce Benjamin]

I'm not sure how this thread turned into an anti-outsourcing thread. Interesting subject though. I wish I could analyze the lives of the people who are against the, "Walmart mentality" to see just how much they practice what they preach. Just how many items in their lives were made by American hands with the profits staying here in America? How 'bout the tools and supplies used to make those products?

I really try to buy, "American" made cars. How do I do that? Am I better off paying Canadians or Mexicans to build my American brand of car so some of the profits from the sale can go to an American car company? That same company invests heavily in the economies of other nations. Or is more money staying in this country if I buy a Honda or Toyota that's actually made on an assembly line in this country. I'm not sure but I'd guess there is more money contributed to the American economy from the wages earned by American workers who build the cars than is made in corporate profits that actually stay in this country from an, "American car" made in Mexico or Canada. Or should we buy our cars and other products from EU countries that are about as friendly to America as the Middle East is?

What does this have to do with wood working machines and where they're made? Not much I suppose. But when people decide to introduce the issue of country of origin I just want to point out that there's a good chance of hypocrisy in the way they spend their money on other products. I buy the best tools I can afford and if possible I try to buy from American companies. (Canada or China...The money still isn't staying in America) But if the only tool I can afford is made in China then I either buy a Chinese/Taiwanese tool or I do without. I don't make as much money as most architects and I probably never will. I can't afford the high end machines and I doubt I'll ever be able to. Does that make me anti American?

Bruce

[lou sansone]

Interesting thread....

the problem with copying as opposed to innovating, is that all designs have some weakness that are sometimes hidden from the copyist, but is known to the inventor. People do copy others folks designs, and sometimes improve on them, but sometimes keep making the same flawed design, only cheaper. My personally view on design and development is that one is well served by resisting the urge to copy and try to innovate. We all use other's designs as a guide, but I think it should be with restraint. If we were talking about making c clamps here, I would agree that one should just make an exact copy for the lowest price and the highest quality and get on with selling them. But we are talking about trying to advance woodworking technology. Please read the following comments with the understanding that they reflect my humility and not arrogance. I have built many many machines over the last 25 years and have at least 8 patents to my credit ( another one currently pending and soon to be issued ). Many of my inventions have not been patented because of the limited use of them, but were patentable ideas none the less. I even have a "secret patent" that is issued but due to national security issues is kept secret. If I was given the resources, I know I could develop innovative technologies within the ww industry. I would take a look at how others did things, look at the parts diagram, and then try to think orthogonal to those designs. The real innovators, the real inventors, do not copy, then invent.

Lou

[John Bailey]

This is an interesting thread, however, it started as a question on the merits of the Grizzly jointer/planer, and some posts have gone to a discussion of outsourcing and "copying" designs. If we all can keep the posts toward the original question, it will be much easier to keep things civil.

Remember, don't offend, and don't be offended.

John

[Matt Lentzner]

I too found the Grizzly offering very interesting not primarily from a price point but mainly from a feature/design perspective. It has a carbide insert spiral cutterhead and the fence is mounted in the middle, not at the infeed table like the Hammer and MiniMax offerings. All of this at a very attractive price made it even more interesting.

Not having own or seen any Grizzly machinery, I too was skeptical about the overall fit, finish and tolerance of manufacturing. I expressed these concerns to the President of Grizzly, Shiraz, and I was ensured it is on par with the Hammer, MiniMax units.

I will provide a review of this machine once I receive mine.:)

Frank,

Did you get it yet? I'm really interested in your impressions.

Matt

[Frank Martin]

Matt,

No, I have not received it. I think it will be later this month sometime.
I will post my review here (with pictures of the machine) once I receive it.

Thanks...



Frank,

Did you get it yet? I'm really interested in your impressions.

Matt

[Sue Wise]

I emailed Grizzly's customer service about the date and they said that they expected it to be in the warehouse around May 11th. I am seriously thinking about buying one also.

[Mike Heidrick]

Tomorrow? The do not know if it will be there definatively tomorrow or not? I think they are fishing for a purchase.

Looks like a sweet machine.

[David Weaver]

Good job Paul...
When all the jobs have been outsourced, and they bring in workers to do the jobs they can't ship out, what's gonna happen?
Simply because you can do a thing, does not mean you should do a thing...
When did america develop a walmart mentality... cheaper is all that matters?

I'd say when you start purchasing a machine and having to support an entire ideology (western Europe, build the cost of society into every machine), and someone else can produce the same thing for half the cost - then it shoul send a message to the people who have been squatting on their designs. If they have something truly original that can be patented, then they will be able to profitably produce it for a number of years - without interference from anyone. That does NOT give them an excuse to set the price wherever they want and expect that when it becomes legal for everyone else to produce the same thing, that other people aren't going to try to make a living.

I'm anxious to see what Shiraz's company can bring to the market, as not everyone on here wants every machine to come with an MM price tag. And, if he can build a machine just as good, it encourages the MMs of the world to produce something else.

If everyone went by yours and Paul's opinions, we'd still be rubbing sticks together for fire, and there wouldn't be such a thing as woodworking.

I'm really anxious actually to see how this specific machine turns out because I might have some interest in it. As a hobbyist, I wouldn't at $4500, but I might at closer to $2K.

I don't understand the bigotry toward people who are willing to work for less than you and me. I just don't get it. I suppose that if we can do some protectionism and keep those people poor, that would somehow be better.

And, as for the "stealing" of other peoples' designs. There's no way you can be an architect and not have "stolen" other peoples' design elements. What would your job be like if you had to come up with an original design for everything you do? Or if you had to subcontract part of your work to someone if you wanted to use a design element that they originally came up with - at an inflated price? You wouldn't be able to work, and your clientele would suffer because of the squatting and protectionism.

[Hal Hanevik]

I don't understand the bigotry toward people who are willing to work for less than you and me. I just don't get it. I suppose that if we can do some protectionism and keep those people poor, that would somehow be better.

Gee.... what is it you do for a living??? And how much do you make???
Wanna bet I can't find a replacement for you for less money in about 30 minutes? I really dosen't matter what the cost to our society is....

[David Weaver]

Hal, Actuary. I'll keep it to myself in terms of how much I make, but I would say "yes", I'll bet you couldn't price my services out cheaper in 30 minutes. Especially not if you want the correct answer. I work for a premium compared to smaller shops or firms, and the reason is that at this point, there is a big difference in quality between premium priced services and basic services, and it pays my clients to buy premium consulting services in the US where they have someone close by who knows the details of their situations. If someone else "copies" what I do and can keep the client relationships, I don't begrudge them for it - I want to know what they do and how - so I can be better. If I get laid off because my job gets offshored, I will find a different skill. I am comfortable that that will lead to less frustration than trying to grip tightly onto a scenario that doesn't make sense.

Rather than trying to guarantee that things stay the same and never change, if someone is not satisfied with what a free market has chosen to pay them, they always have the option of looking for different opportunities. Not entitlement.

So back to what Shiraz is doing - if his product is as good as MMs, I will likely end up with it or something similar. If not, then I'll wait and save my pennies and by the MM version. I'm anxious to see the progress of overseas manufacturing - it sure has improved by leaps and bounds in the last 15 years, and outside of being ethnocentric, that's a good thing.

[glenn bradley]

Ron,

As Matthew states, yes you feed from opposite ends. This is not really an issue as you need infeed and outfeed clearance for either function. The clear space for one just becomes the other depending on the task.

[Matt Lentzner]

Hal,

Economics don't work that way - it's not a zero-sum game. If I get replaced by a worker in a foreign country who can make the same item or provide the same service for less then the world is net more wealthy. That's extra money in the purchaser's pocket. As long as the US can provide high quality goods and services that the world-wide customer wants to buy then that money all comes back sooner or later.

Hogwash you say? The proof is in the pudding.

We have had outsourcing going strong for the last 30 years. Remember when every piece of junk had "made in Japan" on it? Nowadays it just says "made in China". Over that period of rampant outsourcing the US economy has boomed. All those jobs we lost were replaced by better ones. Unemployment is has been low, and shows no sign of rising significantly. Innovative and high quality machinery is still made in America and can command a premium price - SawStop is a good example. Those companies who made the same old tablesaws for the last 40 years are either going down the tubes or have moved their production overseas.

Everything is going great. Enjoy your high-quality Grizzly tools at rock-bottom prices. I plan to.

Regards,

Matt

[Jim Becker]

Matt, just for clarity, SawStop is not made in USA. But I do agree that we live in a global economy that is constantly changing.

[Matt Lentzner]

Bugger. Caught up in my own underwear once again!

Hopefully that little stumble doesn't detract from my message of global off-shoring lovefest. :)

[Phil Pritchard]

Altendorf now have a factory in China and I am sure they are not there to produce a second rate saw.
They aren't, however, there is one very major difference: Altendorf built, staffed, own and run that factory. Many of the generic machines coming from China are being produced by local firms without the benefit of a European or American design-driven parent company. That shows in the detail and quality of product. And even Altendorf only make the lower end models in China at the moment

Phil

[Derrell W Sloan]

Has any one got one of these in your shop yet???

[Ronald Kellison]

Matt,

No, I have not received it. I think it will be later this month sometime.
I will post my review here (with pictures of the machine) once I receive it.

Thanks...

Frank: Did you finally receive your j/p? It's on my list of possible future purchases (once I pay for the new roof, gutters, 200' of 6' fencing and a new furnace!) and I'm sure there are many of us who would appreciate your review.

Regards,


Ron

Stupidity should be painful!

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

5HP Motor 220V

That motor on the Grizz will not be equal to the 60%+ motor you get from the more pricey Euro makers.


675 lbs. (light compared to it's peers)
That can present as a problem as these machines are very vulnerable to flexing of the frame. When the frame flexes the cutter bearing mounts change relative position and can produce weird results.
It's a question of Beef.


G0634 $2295 spiral head
Depends on whether it's a true helical or not.




To use the planer you have to flip the jointer tables up. Looks like a nightmare waiting to happen trying to keep the tables lined up if you are always moving them.

It works out not to be a problem.
On my Hammer there are little locking cams that fall into place preventing the table from falling back plus they tilt out far enough that the weight is holding them up cause it's got 'em leaning away.

When I flip 'em back they come back exactly where they should be. They are, heavy.

Setting the cutters is a little different as you gotta set the out-feed table and not the cutter. If you set the angle the cutter to the table the planar will not give you a parallel result. So you set the table to the cutter. I like 'em dead even.