New Chip Box for Dust Collection

[Keith Outten]

Below is a picture of the ShopBot CNC Router shipping crate which has been converted into a chip box. The dust collection bag is gone to storage, performance has improved by at least 500% and dumping chips will now be a monthly chore rather than every 20 minutes with the bag. I have to do some tuning on the box to tighten up the top edges either by adding more clips or a 2 by 4 stiffener and rubber seal inside to seal it up a bit more. Most importantly the air in the shop has improved immeasurably and all of the fine dust is now being directed outside into the chip box. The shipping box was painted and a 6" vent installed with a baby diaper for a filter.

We started machining door signs yesterday at a rate of 40 per hour. In the second picture you can see almost 100 plaques stacked on top of the work bench in the back of the picture.
Soon there will be 600 plaques stacked up and ready to go to the laser engraver in my office.

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[Kyle Kraft]

Exellent example of improvisation!!!!! I love it when a feller builds something himself and gets a device which outperforms anything commercially available. Only one question....how do you dump it? Looks like its forklift ready.

[Keith Outten]

Kyle,

Dumping is done the old fasioned way. A snow shovel and several 30 gallon trash cans. It only takes a few minutes and it is less of a burden when it is done annually. We have a dumpster about a half block from our office so the transportation is quick and painless with a covered golf cart :)

PVC fittings = $20,00
Dryer Vent = $7.00
Paint = $12.00
Clean Air to Breathe = Priceless

Edit: Dumping the chip box is an annual event now.Because we don't own a planner the amount of chips we collect all year from the CNC router won't fill up this box.
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[Ted Calver]

Just when you thought you were done changing diapers:)...

[Keith Outten]

Your never to old to change diapers :)

I expect the chip box style of dust collection is not exactly a main stream setup as most prefer to stay with the standard bag system and a few elect to purchase cyclone systems. I have been using the chip box style of dust collection for over a decade in my workshop at home.

I submit that the performance boost from not using bags and expensive filters drives the price down and performance up using a chip box. My home shop setup uses a Grizzly 1.5 HP DC unit and the new system at CNU is even smaller, a one HP Grizzly unit. I can't imagine a less expensive system ($89.00) that provides the performance of a larger 3 HP bag system.

The box has no baffles or interior system to regulate chip flow and yet it fills from front to back equally. A periodic shaking of the diaper filter is all that is necessary, this is comparable to cleaning a filter element but a much simpler chore. The time between dumping bags and chip box is also significant. In a production environment a chip box is more efficient as there are fewer interruptions during the normal work week. I might also note that the CNC router produces very fine dust particles much like a drum sander and it does it all day long. After the first two days using the chip box there was no fine dust laying on any table tops or the laptop computer we use to run the router.

Properly sealed a chip box can be used in just about any setting. The picture above shows our new chip box that is located in a residential neighborhood, there is an asphalt student walking path just fifteen feet on the other side of the chip box. Note the dryer vent is installed on the near side of the picture, away from the walking path.

Those of you who have tight budgets can still enjoy high performance dust collection systems and save precious shop floor space as well. The little one HP dust collector in this system is hanging on the wall inside the shop and the 4" PVC exhaust pipe runs close to the wall straight to the back corner and out to the exterior chip box.

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[Karin Voorhis]

Hey now thats a toy!!!!!!! 40 an hr cutting corian wow!!!!!!!!!!! Very nice!!!! Shop bot on the list of toys!!!

[Rick Gooden]

Kieth,

I have never heard of a "chip box" but am intrigued by what you have done. Seems like something I would like to consider in my shop but can't find any info on it. I would love to eliminate the bag and reclaim some floor space. Do you know where I might get some information? Just another example of how much you can learn from Creekers. Thank you......

Rick

[Keith Outten]

Rick,

I made my first chip box years ago when I got tired of emptying the bags on my first DC system, the one I still have in my workshop today. I never found any information so it was trial and error building my first box. At the time I lived in the city with very close neighbors so I experimented with several styles of vents. In the end I found that just about any vent will do the job, multiple vents will cut down on the diaper cleaning cycles. At the time whenever I started up my DC and the bags inflated they would deposit a cloud of dust in the shop, so much for the bags, not to mention having to stop and dump them often. The original chip box was 4 foot tall by 8 foot long which required 5 sheets of plywood.

The new chip box allowed me to collect chips and hold them until I had about 400 gallons which I sold to a local horse stable. The fees for the chips paid the shop electric bill with a little left over for the shop kitty :) Warning: No walnut chips can be used for horses!

When I moved to Gloucester County I scrapped the chip box for many years and just let the wood chips blow outside into a pile since we don't have close neighbors. A couple of years ago I started using a lot of Corian so I had to build another chip box to catch the plastic chips since they are not biodegradable. I recently acquired a 400 gallon oil drum that I will replace my home shop plywood box with very soon. I expect the steel oil drum to out last me so it will be the last chip box I will ever need.

When I started planning the new shop at CNU I knew that we only had a two car garage so space was an issue. The first couple of weeks running the router using the bag that came with the little dust collector reminded me why I converted to a chip box years ago so I acquired permission to convert the ShopBot shipping box to a chip box and life is good again.

Take this test:

Remove the outlet hose from your Dust Collector pump and cover the outlet with a diaper or simular cloth. Turn on the collector and feel the amount of flow you now have without the restriction of the bags and other junk you have to have with an inside filter system. That is also the level of improvement you will see at the tool so you will feel like you just acquired two extra horsepower for free and will collect more dust at the tool.

The trade off is loss of heat in your shop but it isn't as dramatic as you would think unless you live in an area with constant sub-zero temperatures. You don't have to throw your bag system away to try a chip box so the conversion is easily reversed if you decide to go back to bags. Of course you can always use the bags in the Winter and chip box the rest of the year.

Karin,

I am fortunate to have two ShopBots to run these days. I own a ShopBot and CNU just purchased one so at work or at home I have access to a big router. Both have 4 foot by 8 foot tables, the one at CNU has a Spindle and I use a Porter Cable router on mine at home. The spindle cost $2800.00 and the PC $280.00. I will put my ShopBot against any woodworking tool on the market for "Cool Factor" and it is a major workhorse as well. ShopBots aren't just for cutting plaques, they will machine 2.5D projects and 3D signs. ShopBot has a wood lathe attachment and a probe for duplicating 3D objects...lots of cool stuff can be done with CNC. I won't deny that a CNC router is a toy but it will make serious money as well. If you ever plan on woodworking for a living this is the machine to purchase first. My ShopBot was just over $11,000.00 new and it was paid for in the very first week. All I did was make Corian plaques very simular to the ones in the picture above.

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[Tyler Howell]

Great idea Keith!!

[Carol VanArnam]

Keith- ok I LOVE IT but I can't figure out what you did. So the 4" hose is hooked to your machine... runs to your exhaust fan... then runs through the wall to your chip box? The box is just big and air tight with an exhaust vent at the opposite end of the box from where the chips enter the box. Do I have all of the pieces..... How big of an exhaust fan do you have? Please let me know if I missed anything. I want to build one for my shop......

[Keith Outten]

Tyler,

Thanks, the chip box system may not be for everyone but neither are the bags. There are also woodworkers whose budget just won't allow them to purchase an expensive DC system and they will often do without while they save their money. Note that I use 4" PVC soil and vent piping and not the 6" pipe. The bottom line is the volume of air you move from the source to the collection device. A 4" unrestricted line will move more than a 6" line that has to push the air through very fine filters.

Carol,

Your right on target, the fan exhaust runs through the wall directly into the box. The 6" dryer vent installed on the opposite end of the box has a baby diaper around the end of the vent inside the box that acts as the filter.

The dust collection fan at work is a Grizzly 1HP unit, that provides 430 cubic feet per minute of air flow and costs $89.00. This is a high performance system that is very inexpensive and will practically eliminate dust in your shop. Should you have any small leaks in the exterior chip box it is better outside than inside your shop where you have to breathe.

This system provides an almost unrestricted air flow, thus your inexpensive dust collector fan performs like a 3HP unit. There are no fancy filters to purchase or replace, ever :)
The bags are eliminated and so is the awful chore of emptying them so often. The exhaust pressure in the pipe drops quickly when it enters the large chip box which allows the chips and dust to settle in the bottom of the box. This is the primary reason you don't need to use fine micron filters that tend to restrict the air flow.

I don't have any scientific information or data to support my chip box systems performance, just that it has worked for me for over a dozen years in my personal woodworking shop with a 15" planner, 24" dual drum sander, CNC Router, 6" by 80" edge sander, a Laser Engraver, etc. I use a 25 foot 4" hose with a 5 foot long PVC pipe on the end to vac the shop floor. My home shop uses a Grizzly 1.5 HP dust collector and even when I am running my CNC router using MDF I can stand beside the machine and not see any dust, not even in my coffee cup :)

I can't claim that my shop is dust free, nothing is farther from the truth. I have many tools that don't use my dust collection system that will deposit dust on every surface in the shop. I do try to limit their use these days and I have started connecting my Random Orbital Sanders to my shopvac or DC system while sanding large jobs. I can say that when we hosted the Swapmeet in my shop there were over 20 people in the shop while my ShopBot CNC router was machining Corian cutting boards and not one person mentioned dust or asked for a dust mask.

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[James Suzda]

Keith,
First of all thanks for posting your “chip box”! Like another member said: “great idea”. But, I’ve got a question that I would like your opinion and input on.
I’ve got a Delta P400 1hp unit that does not have a 4 inch discharge exhaust pipe, but rather it has two 14” round flanges that the bags attach to.
Do you think it would work to cut a 14” round hole in the chip box lid and mount the DC unit over this hole and then make a 14” lid to seal the top flange? Then I could make a cover for the DC unit to protect it from the weather and run a 4 inch hose into the building.
Do you think this setup would work??
Thanks,
Jim

[Keith Outten]

Jim,

I don't see why your plan won't work. You could hang the motor off of the side of the top using a set of brackets if you felt that you needed additional support. When you remove the bags is the bag attachment screwed to the fan housing? If so you can remove the sheet metal bag converter and fabricate a simple transition to pipe either round or square.

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[James Suzda]

Jim,

I don't see why your plan won't work. You could hang the motor off of the side of the top using a set of brackets if you felt that you needed additional support. When you remove the bags is the bag attachment screwed to the fan housing? If so you can remove the sheet metal bag converter and fabricate a simple transition to pipe either round or square.

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Actually the fan housing and the bag attachments are all one unit, so I think if I would mount it over a 14" hole in the cover would be the easiest. I guess I'm wondering if the sawdust is being blown straight down into the corner will work as good as if the dust is being blown into the end of the box. I suppose all it would take is to try it! :)
Thanks again for the great idea!
Jim

[Josh Bowman]

I'm confused! I took your advise and disconnected my 2 HP DC's discharge hose and noted the flow on the back end rose alot.:)
So the next step was to direct that hose outside via a window. Not only did my flow/suction rise, the noise dropped to half inside the shop.:)
So the next step was to kind of stop up the window opening (not a perfect job) and run unit with all doors and windows closed. My shop is tight, but I really didn't not that much air inleakage when I opened a door, I mean it wasn't like an attic fan, it just gently flowed in. :confused: I really think this is the way to go. I've got to find what will fit up to my Grizzley DC outlet (6" I think) and just run it outside via the window/plywood panel for a week or two and let it dump in a yard trailer.

[Alan Schaffter]

Keith has a unique situation that works well for him, but I would to add a BIG CAUTION and a few suggestions and a better alternative to the diaper box.

First the caution- anytime you discharge outside, you are creating a vacuum of sorts in your shop depending on the size of air leaks or sources of take-up air. If you have little of each, but have a gas or oil fired furnace or hot water heater in your shop, the DC will draw exhaust gases back down the flu and into your shop. Flu gases contain carbon monoxide which is a colorless, odorless gas that is deadly, even in small amounts. It bonds with your hemoglobin much more readily than oxygen, can build gradually but stays in your system a long time, and is hard to purge. So be careful!!!!!!!!!!

That being said, discharging outside, if you can do it, is very efficient.

First, there is absolutely no doubt the best dust collection (lowest static pressure resistance, highest CFM at the machines) by far is a DC blower which discharges outside- no separators, no cyclones, no filters, no bags, no boxes, essentially no resistance other than ducting. You gotta be in the woods, have understanding neighbors, etc. to be able to do this.

The next best setup (next lowest static pressure resistance and next highest CFM at the machines) would be a blower followed by a cyclone ("push-through") which separates out all chips and most dust which then empty into some type of vessel (bag, trash can, shipping crate, tri-wall, etc., but whose relatively dust free air is discharged outside. A well designed cyclone generally removes all chips, most of the fine dust, and adds the least amount of resistance- less than other types of separators and all types of filters used by hobby woodworkers. By using the cyclone in the push-through configuration, you do not need a perfectly sealed dust bin either- a leaky bin is only a problem with pull-through cyclones with filters.

All other systems, those using other separators or those that have bag, cartridge, and yes diaper filters, are less efficient at collecting the dust.

I recommend this approach to Keith. The diaper filters he is using add static pressure resistance which increases as they are used and get caked with dust. With a cyclone (which adds only about 1.5" of SP) he doesn't even need the diapers! Since you don't have a filter, and are not concerned about super 99% separation in the cyclone (so what if some fine dust escapes) you can do this with less than the typical 3 - 5 hp blowers that come on most commercial cyclones.

I've been doing it for years. No box, just bags, but I could easily use a box.

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/500/medium/P2240015.JPG

http://www.ncwoodworker.net/pp/data/1329/medium/P10100531.JPG

[Braun Reszler]

I am thinking of exausting my Harbor Freight DC outdoors, into a chip box, from my basement shop. I am concerned though because I have a water heater and furnace in my basement shop.

Even if I thought opening a door or window would make it safe I wouldnt know for sure. Do you think a carbon monoxide detector from those big box stores would be enough to know its safe, or am I missing something?

Just hooking the HF DC fan unit to my DC piping and exausting out the window would save a considerable amount of needed space, and would also eliminate the need to upgrade to cannister filters.

Any ideas are welcome, thanks.

[Dave MacArthur]

Open window. Good to go. HF DC, cubic feet /minute approx <= 500.
Window 1'x2' = 2 sq ft
500 ftxftxft/min / 2 ftxft == 250 ft/min. Easy airflow through a window to make up what you pump out. Put up a CO monitor near flue, should be good.

[Keith Outten]

I have a heat pump in my shop and at CNU so I don't have any issues with flue gas.

There is a small gap at the bottom of the back door at CNU, it takes care of letting enough air through to assure good air flow. The three large garage doors in my shop leak enough to provide air flow.

For the last two years I haven't had to empty the chip box at CNU but once per year. The new 3000 gallon steel chip box at my shop at home should take years before it needs to be emptied :)
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[paul a rowsell]

Very interesting topic. I have just installed a 3hp Onieda DC (cyclone). I was thinking of unhooking my large dust filter and running the pipe direct down through the floor outdoors for the summer months. Will I notice a big difference by doing this. This unit really sucks now if it would double its suction by doing this I would be worried about being sucked up and blown outdoors if I wandered too close to a inlet

Quebecnewf

[Alan Schaffter]

Very interesting topic. I have just installed a 3hp Onieda DC (cyclone). I was thinking of unhooking my large dust filter and running the pipe direct down through the floor outdoors for the summer months. Will I notice a big difference by doing this. This unit really sucks now if it would double its suction by doing this I would be worried about being sucked up and blown outdoors if I wandered too close to a inlet

Quebecnewf

It surely won't double the suction, but will save on filter wear and tear, and you will not need to clean the filter. Just be careful with small pets :D:D

[Keith Outten]

Paul,

Although I don't have any equipment to measure the increase in performance I can tell you that it is substantial. I have had three shops that I used chip boxes in and I can't imagine going back to bags and filters ever again. I admit that it might not be a good choice for some people but most will enjoy a performance boost and the idea that they don't have to stop often to empty bags. If you are on a budget a low cost Dust Collector can provide high end performance and save some funds for other machines.

My 1.5hp Grizzly DC is at least 17 years old now, I expect it has lasted this long because it hasn't had to push against filters and bags but that's a guess on my part. With 4" SD PVC pipe in my shop and runs that are about 30 feet long I still experience excellent performance. I have had twenty people standing around my CNC Router watching it cut Corian and not one person mentioned any dust issues or asked for a mask. Note that my CNC Router has about twenty feet of pipe that includes about eight foot of rise, several fittings and 25 feet of hose between it and the Dust Collector.

I am about to extend my DC piping from the very end to add another hookup for a new Stinger CNC Router that I have ordered. It will be at the farthest point from my DC and I expect performance to still be more than satisfactory. We shall see :)
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[Scott Mark]

I'm sure people are sick of hearing about this walnut wood and horses don't mix. There are varying opinions on this out there but I'd err on the side of caution. Check out woodweb.org. If you're selling your collection of dust and such make sure the end use doesn't involve horses. I can not think of anything else that would piss off a horse owner more than this. Kind of the equivalent of someone giving you a 20lb sledge hammer as long as they can test it out on your favorite tool for a few minutes first.

FWIW humans have no such fatal issues with walnut. People can be allergic to walnut just like peanuts, you just never hear about walnut allergies cause how many people are exposed to walnut dust?

Personally I'm so allergic to any ruminant (cows, deer, goats, sheep, etc) I can't even field dress a deer even with prescription meds. What's really funny is that my PhD is on bovine or cattle diseases.

For those that know lots about allergies there are "extreme" (IMHO) drugs I could use that would work but if you read up on the side effects of steroids (not talking about anabolic weightlifting kind) it's really really bad in the long run.

[Kurt Rosenzweig]

Hey Keith. Does your system suck a lot of heat out of the shop in the winter. I mainly heat my shop with a wood stove and just use an oil burner to get the shop up to temp. I have all woods backing my shop and would love to just blow it outside and spread it out with the tractor when needed.

[Keith Outten]

Kurt,

The majority of the heat in a shop is in the equipment, walls floor, etc. The impact of dumping shop air directly to the outside is minimal in a mild climate. If it was minus 30 degrees outside it probably wouldn't be a good solution, you should do fine in NJ.

I dumped outside to a pile for many years and spread the chips in my field periodically which worked really well for me. I had to go back to using a chip box when I started using Corian which is a plastic material that won't biodegrade.

Give it a try, the worst that can happen is that you won't have to keep stopping to empty the bags and the performance boost is a real eye opener :)
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[Carl Miller]

Keith
I like the idea of putting all that stuff outside. I will probably do some form of that in my shop. I do have a question about what it does to your heat bill if you are exhausting heated air to the outside. Do you do anything in particular to minimize this?

[Alan Schaffter]

Use your DC only when you need it. Think about how you work- except when turning at a lathe for an extended period or planing a couple hundred board feet in one session, most other operations require much less time so you won't dump as much air outside. Most people do it anyway, but if you discharge outside you will want to control your DC automatically or with a remote switch.

[Keith Outten]

Keith
I like the idea of putting all that stuff outside. I will probably do some form of that in my shop. I do have a question about what it does to your heat bill if you are exhausting heated air to the outside. Do you do anything in particular to minimize this?

Carl,

The short answer is no, there really isn't much you can do to prevent heat loss however it isn't significant as most of the heat in a workshop is in the tools, walls and floor. In extremely cold climates a chip box may not be suitable but in Eastern Virginia where the temps are moderate it works fine.
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[Karl Card]

This is way to cool.... I hate it when these companies advertise a dc and act like they are doing you a favor with a 5 micron bag.... more like a dust distributor...

Right now my setup goes from the machine to a cyclone to the actual dc that drops the wood into a 55 gallon drum and then a bag...

I see alot of free mulch coming soon...

[Keith Outten]

A chip box is the most simple dust collection system that you can use. The beauty of this type of system is that performance is top notch at the lowest possible price and at the same time you get clean shop air to breathe. Any leaks are outside, not in the space where you work. You give up the absolute minimum floor space and the cost of operation is almost zero year after year.

You can test this option by connecting a hose from your DC inlet to your pipe bypassing all of the filters and bags temporarily and running a long hose from the outlet outside. If you don't like the change just remove the temporary hoses and go back to your original configuration.

Of course if you have already spent a bundle on a very expensive system the savings benefit is mute.
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[Steve Stack]

Keith, can you post pix of the hookup to your DC and equipment so I can get a better illustration of how this works and the exit to outside. I'm tied to shopvacs now and it sucks or rather NOT. Been looking at the HF DC and think I need to go that way, cheap and reliable. My shop is 3 stalls of my old horse barn and I can probably vent out to the middle area and possibly install the DC outside as well. Pix would help see how this all goes together and if my idea will work. Thanks,
Steve

[Keith Outten]

Steve,

I am working remote today but I will get more pictures ASAP.
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[John Nesmith]

Here in Florida, it would not be the loss of heat that would concern me. It would be the loss of very expensively cooled air.

[Dave Cav]

This is a great thread. I just discovered it last week. I had been considering moving my DC system outside for some time and this was the spur I needed. I stripped all the filter and bag stuff off my HF 2 HP DC, leaving just the motor, fan and base. I made a heavy bracket and mounted it low to the outside wall of my shop with the inlet facing the wall. I cut a hole in the wall for the pipe connection and the discharge line points straight out to the side "yard" (I live more or less in the woods and don't have any close neighbors). I put a 6" dryer vent shutter thing on the outlet to (hopefully) keep the critters out. Today I ran a bunch of new 4" PVC S&D pipe to my thickness planer and cleaned up the connections to the RAS. I got rid of 95% of the flex pipe, and without the bags and filters that thing really moves the air.

[Dave Houseal]

This sounds like exactly what I've been looking for! I've put off getting DC for years now cause I never quite came up with the $1500 to $2000 I thought I needed to do it right.

Now to scavenge CL for a used DC :D

[Keith Outten]

Hey Dave!

No Bags, No Filters, No Problems :)

The performance increase is awesome isn't it?
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[Dave Cav]

Now to scavenge CL for a used DC :D

Just wait for Harbor Freight to put the 2 HP model on sale and then print yourself a 20% off coupon, then take the blower off and recycle the rest. The casters alone are worth another fifteen bucks or so...

[Dave Houseal]

Just wait for Harbor Freight to put the 2 HP model on sale and then print yourself a 20% off coupon, then take the blower off and recycle the rest. The casters alone are worth another fifteen bucks or so...

That's a good idea...actually looks like its on sale now for $189. Just bought a few other things though....not sure if I can slip that past the wife just yet...lol.

[Elliott Wesley]

i agree with u..
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[Josh Bowman]

The biggest benifit I see is that dusty air does NOT have to filtered for me to breathe somewhat clean air. The loss of heat/cooling is well worth that price.