Saw Stop Fence: Incra vs Jointech vs T-Glide Professional Fence

[Don Bullock]

The LOML has given me a tentative OK on a SawStop (maybe a future gloat). As someone else did, I showed her the videos on their website.

What I'd like to know is which system would be best for a SawStop table saw with the possibility of adding a router table (on the left do to the access door on the SawStop) in the future? I like the accuracy of the Jointech fence and plan to do dovetails etc. on the router table. I figure if I'm going to spend that much money on a fence, it should work for both the saw and the router. Perhaps I'm wrong.

I saw the Jointech system demonstrated at a WoodWorks Show, but have never seen the Incra demonstrated. The guy doing the demonstration was very "slick," if you know what I mean and wonder if it is as easy to use as he showed. Has anyone actually compared the cost of these two systems? Not that I'm cheap, but I need to know which is the best value and will do what I want it to do.

Would it be cheaper and "better" to get the 36" T-Glide Professional Fence with rails for the SawStop and a dovetail jig like the Leigh or the new Porter Cable when it comes out? I guess I'll eventually have to make a router table as well. Needless to say I'm rather confused about this whole thing, but if I'm going to get a new SawStop I want the best fence system that I can "afford" for it first and worry about the router table later. I don't have any money to "waste" on this project (actually nothing budgeted for it yet). Yes, I won't consider another saw so don't waste your effort trying to change my mind on that part. Thanks for any insight you can give to help me with this confusion.:eek:

[Calvin Crutchfield]

Good question. I too recently purchased a SS and was thinking about the incra. Mostly as I can recover a lot of real estate by combining the router table into the SS. My current router table is large and could use a fence upgrade. My current plan is to wait till the wood show on Apr 13 and hope to see demos of both the incra and the jointech.

[Don Bullock]

That's a good idea. Let me know what you think after you see them. According to their websites it looks like both are scheduled for the shows in Pleasanton 4/13 -- 4/15 (near you) and in Pomona 5/4 -- 5/6 (near me).

[Mike Heidrick]

Guys, all I can tell you is I have the TGlide on the Sawstop and the LS Pro on the RouterStop and I do not think I personally would like having the LS on the saw instead of the TGlide if I did not have a router table also on the saw. That TGlide is so much more solid feeling and substantial and sooo smooth sliding. This is just my personal preference.

If you need to conserve space by having the tables combined get the Incra (I say Incra because you can get it from Justin at Woodpecker and I know they make a positioner bracket for the 30" tables on the sawstop) but if you will have a seperate tables get the TGlide for the saw.

[Chuck Nickerson]

I'll weigh in on the Jointech question. I have two: one for my Unisaw and one for my router table. They are 'that slick'. One thing that is harder than it looks is the initial alignment. That's because we do it once a year, and Sal does it every week.

[Cary Swoveland]

Don,

I recently got a Sawstop and wrestled with the same issues that you're considering. Let me tell you what I decided. It may give you ideas.

I bought Jointech's 72" Sawtrain kit for use on the Sawstop. I considered Incra's comparable system, but chose Jointech, mainly because I already had their Cabinet Maker system. I planned to put my router table top--cut down to 38" long--to the right of the Sawstop, to save shop space. Previously I had the Cabinet Maker system on a 30" x 48" router table. Considering the room needed all around the table, I recovered a huge amount of real estate!

I originally chose Jointech over Incra because the Jointech system had a reputation for being a little beefier than Incra's. I now think either would be fine, and I believe the Incra is less expensive.

Both Incra and Jointech will cut parts for Sawstop's 30" deep table. (Jointech didn't charge extra). Unfortunately, I had to also buy Jointech's 38" SmartFence, as my 32" one is not long enough. I also bought parts to allow me to use Jointech's featherboard with the Sawtrain.

I decided to put my router table to the right of the saw because I am using Jessem's sliding table on the left. The "Rout-R-Slide" takes the place of the left 10" cast iron table extension. Once you use a sliding table (I had a Minimax combo machine), it's hard to go back. Lastly, I am putting everything on a beefed up and extended HTC mobile base, and adding a Wixey digital readout to the Sawtrain.

The 72" rails (the left ends of which are aligned with the left end of the saw's main table) give me a maximum rip of about 48". The maximum distance between the SmartFence and the router spindle is about 16". I can increase that amount to about 32" by flipping the Sawtrain 180 degrees, and use the router from the other side of the table (which has implications for the position of the router switch and access to the router).

I'll post a picture in a few days, once it's all together.

Cary

[Calvin Crutchfield]

Cary,

Thanks for the comments. I tried to keep track of what you were saying, but got confused so I look forward to pictures as soon as you get it up and running.

Thanks!

[Don Bullock]

Good information. Thank you very much. Any and all input is appreciated. It looks like I'm not the only one with this question. Pictures of any of your set-ups would be very helpful.

I am trying to keep the "footprint" of my set-up as small as possible, but as I said, cost is an issue. Right now all my tools share a two car garage with two PT Cruisers. After I retire in a couple of years I hope to have more shop space.

[Rich Person]

I chose the Incra system (standard length) and it works with both my saw and router table:

http://www.person.smugmug.com/photos/105489729-S.jpg
I wasn't crazy about the Incra dovetail system, so I bought a Leigh jig for that. But I really like the Incra system. I only get bits and pieces of time in the shop and the repeatability is very nice. Not to mention I don't need to tape measure after setting the fence. Only one measurement and it is right on.

[Don Bullock]

Rich, thanks for the information and picture. That helps a lot. How did you solve the problem with the door on the SawStop? I've read that it can be a problem with a router table on the right side of the SawStop.

Someone on another forum mentioned that he went with a regular fence because the Incra and Jointech are difficult to remove for ripping large sheets of plywood. Does anyone else want to comment on this?

[Cary Swoveland]

...I've read that it [the Sawstop door] can be a problem with a router table on the right side of the SawStop.
If you simply leave room under the extension table for the door to swing open, you give up a lot of useful space, and if you have a router to the right of the saw, you have to position it so far to the right that the maximum fence-to-router bit distance may be less than you'd like.

Considering that you should not need to open the door often, it makes sense, IMO, to put the router right next to the door, and remove the router when you need to open the door. I have a dust collection box beneath my router, and modified its attachment so that I can quickly remove it with the turn of a single knob.


Someone on another forum mentioned that he went with a regular fence because the Incra and Jointech are difficult to remove for ripping large sheets of plywood. Does anyone else want to comment on this?
I don't understand why you'd want to remove the fence for ripping. Are you speaking of freehand ripping? I prefer to cut down sheets of plywood on my Festool MFT, even when I could do it on my table saw.

Cary

[Rich Person]

Rich, thanks for the information and picture. That helps a lot. How did you solve the problem with the door on the SawStop? I've read that it can be a problem with a router table on the right side of the SawStop.

Someone on another forum mentioned that he went with a regular fence because the Incra and Jointech are difficult to remove for ripping large sheets of plywood. Does anyone else want to comment on this?

Regarding the router lift, I had a custom table from Woodpeckers made that placed the router (and dust collector) out of range of the door, but still gave me useable distance from the fence when all the way to the right. No problems there.

As to the large plywood, I don't use the saw without the fence. My setup allows for quite a bit of space on the right side of the blade. However, if you want to take the fence off, you just loosen the four T-nuts quickly and lift it off and you have full access to the bare table. Maybe takes ten seconds more than removing a t-fence. However, I also use the Festool guide system to cut sheet goods as my back doesn't like hefting around full sheets of 3/4 ply.

[Dave Hale]

I had the Incra 'dual' setup before, router table replacing the left wing. I've decided to go with a separate router table (Incra Joinery system from WoodPecks) with the purchase of the SawStop. Still going to use the Incra on the SS too. :) I'm hoping I can build a storage are to the right of the door to sit on the HTC base.
Since space is a premium for you, I'd suggest replacing the left SS wing with a router wing. As long as the slider's not in your immediate plans. The blade is easy to lower, the knife/guard setup is easy to remove and you can slide the Incra system over to predefined stops and be ready to go. The left door (belt), I think, will be used much less than the right (switching to a dado & back) and you'll have full usage of the Incra's capability. Mounting on the right is limiting the range of the Incra fence some.

Removing the fence. I don't know why you'd do it but removing an Incra fence is T-wrench four bolts and hand loosening four others. 60 seconds tops. You'll actually perform a similar action to slide the Incra base to the left for the router functions.

[Bill Fleming]

Cary

Interested in your transition from MiniMax slider to SawStop with slider - pros and cons? Was reason cost driven, space, safety?

Thx Bill

[Don Bullock]

:confused: I'm sorry that I keep coming up with questions, but all of this is so new to me. The Incra fence comes in two lengths 32" and 52." Is this the full length of the rails? That doesn't seem right to me. So, what is the total length of the rails for these two available lengths? I'm somewhat limited on space, but don't want to limit myself too much on what I can do with the saw or a router table mounted on one side or the other. Thanks for your patience.

[Rich Person]

:confused: I'm sorry that I keep coming up with questions, but all of this is so new to me. The Incra fence comes in two lengths 32" and 52." Is this the full length of the rails? That doesn't seem right to me. So, what is the total length of the rails for these two available lengths? I'm somewhat limited on space, but don't want to limit myself too much on what I can do with the saw or a router table mounted on one side or the other. Thanks for your patience.

I believe the 32" is the calculated amount of space you have between the fence and the blade if you start the rails from the far left extension end. The rails are substantially longer than that. The short rails are actually 72" and the long ones 92" (I think). I didn't plan on needing the rails on the left side of my blade, so (as you can see from my picture above), I bought the 72 inch rails and then mounted them from the left side of the main table (not the wing) over. This gives me plenty of room, as you can see from the picture.

[Dave Hale]

The only difference is the length of the rails. If I remember correctly the scale is 32" for both options. The rails can be 72" or 92". Most cuts will be with the positioner base at the 32" stop. If you're doing something more than 32", then you move (slide) the positioner base to the right to get the additional capacity.

You need to remember that it's not just the length of the rails, but you also have to factor in the positioner base (scale) sticking out to the right past the rails. Rough estimate: Positioner base set at 32" from saw blade. Fully extended to make a 32" cut it will stick out another 32" to the right. Total 64" to the right of the blade. That's 5 foot 4 inches by my math. :)

I don't want to sound negative, I love the Incra fence, both for the TS and Router. But you will need room to the right. Took me a while to get used to navigating 'around' the rails. Nothing like cutting 3 5" wide boards and, because you forgot, cutting the 4th one 2 days later more than 30 cuts later and stack them vertically, run your hand across and feel no gaps or difference in height. Very nice fence. I tend to forget a lot. :)

Woodpeck.com has some pretty good writeups and pictures on their site if my explainations don't click. Incra.biz too.

[Cary Swoveland]

Cary

Interested in your transition from MiniMax slider to SawStop with slider - pros and cons? Was reason cost driven, space, safety?

Thx Bill

A combo machine makes a lot of sense when: a) you need most or all of the functions of the machine; b) work with sheet goods a lot (e.g., making cabinets); and c) are short on floor space.

My Minimax CU300 Smart has five functions: table saw, planer, jointer, shaper and mortiser. When I bought it a few years ago, I figured I probably would use all those functions. I've never used the shaper, however, and as I have a Festool Domino on order, I doubt I will be using the mortiser either.

I mostly work with hardwoods, and prefer cutting sheet goods with Festools. Therefore, I really don't need a large slider.

I replaced the Minimax with a Sawstop with router table and Jessem slider attached, a Grizzly 8" jointer and a Grizzly 16" planer. All are on mobile bases. Considering the huge amount of space I recovered by integrating my router table with the Sawstop, I actually have a less congested shop now than I did when I had the Minimax.

When I first considered selling the Minimax and replacing it with separate machines, I did a back-of-the-envelop calculation that suggested I could end up with a shop that better suited my needs and interests, and have some money left on the table.

Switching from one function to another on a combo machine is not onorous or especially time-consuming, but doing it efficiently does require organization and planning. It makes sense, for example, to mill all the boards needed for a project at one time. Joint one face and one edge of each board, then plane all the boards, then cut all boards to length and width, and then back to the jointer to clean up the last edge. I can do it that way, but frankly, I prefer the flexibility of doing operations in whatever order I like, and not having to think too hard about it.

There are tradeoffs, of course. I give up Minimax's big sliding table saw, but I gain a excellent table saw with an outstanding safety feature. The Sawstop has better dust collection, faster and easier blade changing, better mobility and is superior when ripping very narrow boards. I can use a Jointech (or Incra) fence and a router table with the Sawstop, options not available with the Minimax.

For the work I do, the Jessem slider combined with my Festool circular saw and MFT table are just fine for cutting sheet goods. My Grizzly jointer is only 8" wide, compared to Minimax's 12", but the Griz's tables are much longer and the spiral cutterhead results in less tearout in figured woods. I'll take that tradeoff. My 15" planer is a little wider than Minimax's, has longer tables and soon will have a spiral cutterhead.

Cary

[Don Bullock]

Cary,
I appreciate your explanation for your change from a MM slider/combo to the SawStop. That really helps because I was starting to wonder about that since I am planning to spend so much on a SawStop - not that I have that much extra to spend right now.

Now, another question (well maybe more) for you experts out there:

I've been looking at fence rail (track) set-ups from Incra and Jointech very closely on their websites etc. It seems strange to me that they always show the fence track going all the way to the left edge of the saw table. Rich Parson, in the picture that he posted in this thread got me to start thinking about why do that. He didn't run the rail in front of the wing he placed on the left side of his SawStop. I wonder why I need to have the rails run much past the blade if I always plan to work on the right side of the blade on a left tilt saw. My '70s era Craftsman (left tilt) table saw fence rail starts just left of the blade. There is no way for the fence on that saw to be placed left of the blade.

So my questions: Why not start the fence rails (track) even with or just slightly left of the saw blade? Why does it need to go to the left of the blade? Wouldn't I get more "rip capacity" from the track if I don't install it all the way along the front of the saw? What problems would I run into if I just started the fence rails on the front and rear of the table, even with the blade?

As you can see I'm very new to all this. So please bear with me.:D

[Bill Fleming]

Cary

Thx for the nice logical discussion of your decision process. I see you can probably appreciate my question as my current shop is much like yours with Festool, good router table, separates for planer and jointer... thinking about a replacement for my tuned 20 year old contractor saw and spiral cutterheads. So as I have been thinking about it all have been debating the SawStop vs a MiniMax slider (not really interested in a combo for all the reasons you pointed out).

Anyway - Cheers and thx for the thoughts.

Bill

[Paul Sidbury]

I chose the Incra system (standard length) and it works with both my saw and router table:

http://www.person.smugmug.com/photos/105489729-S.jpg
I wasn't crazy about the Incra dovetail system, so I bought a Leigh jig for that. But I really like the Incra system. I only get bits and pieces of time in the shop and the repeatability is very nice. Not to mention I don't need to tape measure after setting the fence. Only one measurement and it is right on.

Hey Rich,

Is that base mobile? Looks like plywood on some iron with wheels but can see it close enough. Thanks.

Paul

[Cary Swoveland]

Cary,
So my questions: Why not start the fence rails (track) even with or just slightly left of the saw blade? Why does it need to go to the left of the blade? Wouldn't I get more "rip capacity" from the track if I don't install it all the way along the front of the saw? What problems would I run into if I just started the fence rails on the front and rear of the table, even with the blade?

As you can see I'm very new to all this. So please bear with me.:D
For using the table saw, there is no need for the Jointech rails to extend (to the left) beyond a point that is about 3" to the right of the saw blade.

I can think of only three reasons why you would want the rails to go further to the left: a) if you have a router table to the right of the blade, you might want to flip the fence and carriage assembly 180 degress and use the router from the other side of the table, in order to increase the distance between the fence and the router bit; b) the left end of the rail might catch clothing; and c) you might not like the way it looks.

Were it me, I'd run the rails to at least the left edge of the saw table, if not the left edge of the left wing. I'd do this even if I didn't have a router in the extension table (for reasons b and c, and also to allow for the option of adding a router later). I'd then decide what maximum rip I would need and buy the length of rail needed for that rip. Note that if the rails are too long, it is easy to cut them to length with a carbide blade or on a bandsaw.

Cary

[Rich Person]

Hey Rich,

Is that base mobile? Looks like plywood on some iron with wheels but can see it close enough. Thanks.

Paul

No, I thought about putting the saw on a mobile base, but I couldn't see any reason I really needed to actually move it. I made a platform out of 2x4s and 3/4 ply and the mounted some balancing feet so I could level out the saw. I also liked the idea of bringing it up a little as I'm 6'1".

[Don Bullock]

Cary,
That's just what I wanted to know. Thanks. It looks like the 32" system will work just fine and if I need more room on the right side of the blade I can move the whole fence system to the right. It looks to me that this can be accomplished by simply moving one pair of the Universal mounting brackets and re-zeroing the system.

You made a good point on switching the fence and carriage assembly 180 degress and use the router from the other side of the table. That is something I may need to do because I do plan on a right side router table eventually, much like what Rich has. As for catching my cloths, my current fence rails stick out farther that the Incra or Jointech and the one on the front of the saw begins just left of the plane of the blade. I've never caught anything on it. If this becomes a problem, I'll fabricate a wood end for the rail that will prevent the problem. That's something I may do anyway. It would look good. I don't care how the fence rails look in relation to the width of the saw and wing. No matter what I do, they will look far better than what I presently have.

Rich,
Again thank you for posting the picture. Yes there are many pictures on Woodpeck and the Incra site, but none of them are on a SawStop nor have they mounted the rails the way you have. Did Justin keep the plans for your router table on file. I may "steal" your idea. It looks like it is a good solution.

To All Who Posted and sent PMs,
Thank you for your input. Your help greatly appreciated. Unless Jointech can come up with a packege like the Incra Jig Table Saw Fence without all the router attachments for a good price, I've decided to go with the Incra 32". Through Woodpeck, at their regular price, I can get this system for $99 over the price of the T-Glide Professional Fence from SawStop. I think that the added precision, and the possibility to add the Wonderfence Joinery Package later, is worth the extra $s. Yes, the Jointech system is good, perhaps a little better, but the cost is much higher and they don't seem to allow their system to be purchased in parts. I won't be buying anything until I talk to my electrician on Monday afternoon and he's installed the electrical outlets that I need. I still may wait until after the woodworking show the first weekend in May so that I can see both the Jointech and Incra systems demonstrated in person. This is a great place to get information and help.

[Cary Swoveland]

Cary,
...Yes, the Jointech system is good, perhaps a little better, but the cost is much higher and they don't seem to allow their system to be purchased in parts...
Don,

Actually, Jointech does allow you to buy just what you need, namely, a Sawtrain "kit", a Clincher (i.e., fence positioner) and a SmartFence. If you were to get a Sawtrain kit with 72" rails, a 26" Clincher (the largest) and a 38" SmartFence (the largest, which you must have for the Sawstop), it would cost $679. They may have an additional fee to cut a longer-than-normal bridge for the Sawstop, but they waived that when I recently placed an order.

There's a $50 "rebate" (for that purchase amount) if you were to buy before the end of this month. I expect that would just about cover shipping. This does not include a table, of course. Another nice accessory is a featherboard they sell that attaches to the rails. (Another reason for extending the rails to the left of the blade!)

You could get the 18" Clincher and save $40. The smaller Clincher would only let you use the built-in scale up to 18", but there would be less overhang on the right side of the table with wide rips. (Maximum rip size is unaffected--that depends only on the length of the rails.) The only other disadvantage of a smaller Clincher is that you would have to move the bridge more often when changing the rip widths.

Both Jointech and Incra provide methods for measuring rips wider than the scale on their fence positioner. A better method, IMO, is to use a Wixey digital fence readout. It provides a continuous readout up to the maximum rip width, in metric if you desire, and does not need to be recalibrated if you move the bridge in order to make a narrower or wider rip. I don't know if the Wixey fits the Sawstop/Incra, but I'd guess it does.

I'm sure you'll be very happy with either the Incra or Jointech.

Cary

[Don Bullock]

Cary,
Thank you for that information. The input is appreciated. It's amazing how much I can find out her that I can't anywhere else.

I have sent Jointech an email asking about such a choice. I can't find it on their website or in the material they sent me. The $679 price tag seems very steep. I can get an Incra with a 32" range (longer than Jointech 26") for $399 list + the $31.95 for the SawStop conversion parts. The feather board looks like a good addition, but I'm sure that I can buy or fabricate something like it for the Incra. Actually I was thinking of adding some Board Buddies to the fence. Someone on the Internet posted pictures of them being attached to an Incra fence. It may sound a little strange, but I do like the idea of the floating tables available for the Jointech. They can be used as an additional surface, left, right, front and behind the saw. When added to the left or right they actually add to the length of the track because they have lengths of Sawtrain track mounted on them. That said, I don't think that this added flexibility is worth the extra cost. So this all brings me back to the Incra as the best for me unless I'm missing something, which is very possible.

[Homer Faucett]

Cary,
Thank you for that information. The input is appreciated. It's amazing how much I can find out her that I can't anywhere else.

I have sent Jointech an email asking about such a choice. I can't find it on their website or in the material they sent me. The $679 price tag seems very steep. I can get an Incra with a 32" range (longer than Jointech 26") for $399 list + the $31.95 for the SawStop conversion parts. The feather board looks like a good addition, but I'm sure that I can buy or fabricate something like it for the Incra. Actually I was thinking of adding some Board Buddies to the fence. Someone on the Internet posted pictures of them being attached to an Incra fence. It may sound a little strange, but I do like the idea of the floating tables available for the Jointech. They can be used as an additional surface, left, right, front and behind the saw. When added to the left or right they actually add to the length of the track because they have lengths of Sawtrain track mounted on them. That said, I don't think that this added flexibility is worth the extra cost. So this all brings me back to the Incra as the best for me unless I'm missing something, which is very possible.

Don, I've been looking at Incra vs. Bies vs. Sawstop (Bies clone) fence for the past two days, and tried to take a look at the Jointech system as well. I've got to agree with you--the Jointech website is HORRIBLE, and it does not make it look as if you can buy all the components you need separately (Thank you, Cary, for giving information otherwise). Aside from that, the Incra site is well laid out, and appears to be MUCH more affordable for what looks to be a more versatile system (I also like the stainless engraved ruler).

In the end, though, I think I like the rugged nature of the Bies style, and will probably be going with the 52" SS t-glide. I've been using a Delta T2 for the past 3 years and really liked it, so I'm not going to jump ship now, especially since I can't put my hands on a TSLS anywhere around here to play with it and change my mind. Good luck with your decision.