workbench hardware questions - longish

[Robert Trotter]

Hi there guys and gals. I have some questions for ya all, but first I'll give you a rundown on what I am thinking... Any thoughts, ideas and especially experiences will be greatly appreciated. (I have just ordered "The Workbench Book", but it won't arrive for a while)

So here goes...I have a workmate and I'm STILL thinking about my workbench for when I get the small shop built. But I have become stuck in the "thinking too much about it" rut like many others and don't seem to be going any further. I am at a fork in the road. One leading down the Roubo bench road and the other down a hybrid regular bench.

I have decided that with either style, I will go with some drawers and a cabinet beneath so that I can maximise my storage and layout of my mini-shop.

I have also gotten stuck on vice placement and bench hardware. I can go the leg vice and crochet and maximise the length of say a large panel clamped to the front of the bench. But for some reason I like the idea of the LV twin screw vice as a front vice. But if I go with this then it will limit the length of panel or door etc that I can clamp...I have a question later about this so hang on, please.:)

Like I said I am stuck in the "thinking too much about it" rut and I need to have something so I can make things with (especially the doors for my shop/shed/toolbax) and to see how my little shop will work. From reading some of the websites and posts about some people's ultimate workbenches, it takes about two or three years to get the design finalised and then another year's labour to get it finished.:eek: ;) So I have decided to put on hold for the moment my super duper fantastic bench and just build my own cheap model so that I can make some things and so I can see what will work in my situation. But I still need some hardware for it and I want o be able to use it all on the Mark II in the future. So are here are some thoughts and questions on which I would appreciate your input.

With a face vice for a right hander like myself the usual set-up is to have the face vice at the left end and a tail vice or similar at the right. But I found an interesting bench by "Dean J" while surfiing, which has a crotchet at the left hand end and just pegs in the leg and a sliding board jack. And at the right hand end of the bench he has a large twin screw (24" centres) for a face vice. It appeals to me, with the simplicity and the large face vice. He is a right hander, it appears, but his set-up is opposite to the norm. Any thoughts?

But with this set up and my shorter bench it would not leave me much capacity if I needed to hold doors or larger panel or sheet goods for say edge jointing or whatever. So here is my first question..

Question 1.
How easy is it to remove the LV twin screw from the bench and reinstall it later. (just front jaws and screws etc)?
(My thinking...a) install the twin screw for the majority of my work and when ocasionally needed remove it so I can clamp larger (wide and longish) panels against the front of the bench. Then just reinstall the screws and front jaw assembly when done.
b)Also thinking (just thinking at the moment:D ) about having holes drilled in a skirt (rear jaw) for installation of the twin screw vice at each end of the bench bench so that I can change my working set up until I finalise the location.


Question 2.
How long are the twin vice's screws? How far from the rear jaw face do they protrude?

Question 3.
If using the LV twin screw vice for a face vice, (has anyone got this set-up?) do the handles etc. get in the way when face jointing on the bench top itself (say between dogs). How much do they protrude? Is it better to be able to just work along an unecumbered bench edge? Remember I am using a workmate now so I have no idea.

I have decided to go with the Veritas hold downs also rather than the regular holdfasts. And if I go with the twin screw face vice I will need a skirt as a rear jaw. so now to questions 4.

Question 4.
Is there any example of where I would need to clamp something to the top with regular type clamps that I can't use the LV hold downs? (Sorry, brain dead, I can't think of any examples:o )


Bench points:-

Question 5.
How much foot room under the front long stretcher is needed? What is typical?

Question 6.
What is your recommended maximum span between legs/supports for say a spruce top just under 4" thick?
(I plan on getting some 105mm square laminated spruce posts (reasonably cheap from the borg here)) and laminate them together into a top and then I will have to plane it down to level the top so it will be a bit less than the original 105mm.

This is an embarrasing one :o but hey, you aren't born with the knowledge are ya.;)
Question 7.
Are all the racking forces in the longitudinal direction basically resisted by the long stretches only? I was thinking of using the same 105mm square laminated spruce posts for the legs and the stretchers, too.

Or since I am wanting to put cabintes or drawers under the bench anyway, would it be better to just put a ply panel in the back joining the rear legs together. How is a good way to do this if this is the way to go?

I have to decide on how to fix the top. Mortice and tennon the legs into the underside of the slab like the roubo or have end frames on the base with top stretchers (is that the term here?) and then just sit it on a dowel or lag bolt it in the middle so it doesn't slide but mainly just relying on gravity.


OK there you go. A mega post. I hope you can help me out and hopefully all the others like me will be helped out as well.

Robert

[Jim Becker]

For your hold-downs, consider the Gramercy hold-downs sold by Tools for Working Wood...I cannot believe how much I've been using them and I'm not even a dedicated Neander!

[Robert Trotter]

Hi Jim,
Thanks for the recomendation. Andrew also recomended them some time ago in a another thread and at that time I was thinking about getting some in the future. I haven't used them and recently I have been thinking that I would need to have a hammer laying around all the time and be bashing them (a bit noisy) disturbing the neighbours. And bench space will be at a premium so where would I leave a hammer? Also I wasn't sure about if you could use them in a leg or in a thinnner apron. hence I have been thinking of the Veritas hold downs. Just pop them in and then crank it down a bit. simple and quiet. I think--never used them either.

Any thoughts on my other questions?

Robert

[James Owen]

Robert,

My primary bench is a 24" X 96" Sjöbergs cabinetmaker's bench with an L-shaped tail vice and the 16" (approx) wide front vice. Also have an much lighter, smaller Sjöbergs 14" X 36" bench with a front vice and a front-vice type end vice.

I have also been toying with the idea of building a Roubo-style bench to supplement my current benches. I am leaning toward the leg vice on the front and no or maybe an L-shaped tail vice on the end.

A few general comments:

Placing the front vice on the right side of the bench for a right-hander seems very awkward to me, but then again, I am used to planing from right to left, with the front vice on the left. I'd give very, very careful consideration to the idea before setting up your bench vices opposite the usual way for a right-hander.

Another thing that you might consider is to build your bench with no vices, and use only hold downs, a bench stop, and battens for some suitable period of time, and then decide whether you need a vice or two. If you decide that you want to install a vice or two in your bench, you can always add it/them.
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To answer your last questions first: yes, the hold downs can be used in the legs and front of the bench if you have (drilled) holes for them. They work quite well for holding longer boards or panels.

Q1: Why remove it? The LV twin screw will hold larger panels just fine. All you really need is a means to hold the other end of the panel in place -- a board jack, clamp(s), or a hold down will take care of that. A similar thickness piece of wood on the other end/side of the vice will keep it from racking. (This answer assumes that you are clamping a wider panel vertically along the front edge of the bench.)

Q2: Don't know, but you can safely assume that the screws will protrude underneath for at least half of the width of your bench (assuming you're building a bench 24" - 30" wide). LV's web site should have this info; if not, call or send them an email -- they'll be more than happy to answer all your questions about the vice.

Q3: They shouldn't protrude more than about 4" to 6" at the most. The vice jaw and handle on my large bench stick out about 4". They don't get in the way at all when planing bench-length boards.

Q4: You may want, for example, to clamp a batten across the full width of your bench without having anything protruding above the top of the batten (to get in the way of your plane) in the areas where your board is pressing against it; clamping it along the outside edges is one frequent solution. This is a particularly useful technique when planing relatively thin boards.

Q5: For commercial benches, about 4" to 6" seems to be pretty typical. Some are a bit more.

Q6: 4" thick spruce should support itself pretty well at least up to 6' or 8', with little or no sag. With stretchers under it to add support, I wouldn't start worrying until you get at least 10" or 12" long.....

Q7: 4" square stretchers are probably overkill, and will certainly make this a STOUT bench. Between the (top) stretchers, the 4" ± thick top, and the cabinets (if you add them), I don't think that you will have to worry about longitudinal racking very much. I would give serious consideration to M & T joinery for the stretchers; you could always add bolts to tighten the stretchers into the legs if you live in a place where the humidity changes are fairly drastic; through tenons with through wedges also work pretty well for this application.
_____

Hope that this is of some use to you. Good luck in building your new bench, and be sure to post pics!!

[Wiley Horne]

Robert,

I have some thoughts on your questions. But first, approx. how long will this bench be?

Wiley

[Robert Trotter]

Thanks James for your time and effort in addressing my questions.

As to Question 1, "Why move it?" ...

My work space will be just a bit over 9' wide. So if I had a twin screw at say 24" centres (Why 24"? - I am thinking that it will allow me to hold drawers and assembled components etc in the vice between the screws.) And then my bench length, and some space to start and follow through on a planing stroke then there wouldn't be a lot of available length between the end of the bench and the vice screw for putting a panel or something in.

I am not thinking of doing very large projects at the moment but if I did and needed to say finish the edge of a large cabinet door or panel then I would need to remove the twin screw and just clamp with holdfast or hold downs to the bench. (vertically against the front of the bench and legs) Removing the vice would mean I could use the full width of my bench to support a panel of some sort.

I know I could get some technical details from Veritas but I was hoping that there were people out there with a twin screw who have used it and know about its limits and installation etc. Real life reports are the most informative I think.

I found a link to a discussion or review about the pros and cons of the twin vice by Wiley Horne but the article seems to be closed/no longerthere.

Thanks for the note about the batten being clamped across the top. I'll think about this as I come up with my intial quick design.

The 4" square stretchers came from my thinking that I would just buy the posts which are just under 3m in length. This would mean two bench top pieces and a leg from each. So just buy one more post and it should work out to be just about right for material.
But I could just get a 2x6 or 2x4. Would "2 by" something be adequate?

I was thinking of M&T joints ( no glue) for the legs and stretchers and using bolts which would allow for disassembly and re-sizing the bench until I find the best fit for my space.

For cabinets under, should I make the bench and cabinets seperately and just slide them in the space and fix then to the bench frame?
OR
Just add some ledgers (proper name ?) around the frame and just screw ply sides, and back and bottom onto these then hang some doors off the legs?

Robert

[Robert Trotter]

Hi Wiley,

I just posted again and then saw your post.:)

In my last post I noted that my work space is a bit over 9' wide.

My initial idea was to make a bench as wide a possible, I am thinking about 2 metres (about 6.5 feet), and then if it were too long for working in my space I could cut it down in length until I got the best fit.

I was thinking at one atge of just making a bench nearly the full width of my space with one end open with enough space to store some stock vertically. But after thinking about this, I would not be able to use a tail vice or similar. So I shortened it so as to have tail vice or some fixing system at the end.

I am considering just wonder dogs for simplicity for the end vice. My problem is that to use a tail vice or similar properly I need a lot of working room at that end of the bench. So I would need to push the bench right to left hand end of my space. Otherwise I could go for a wagon vice with a very long block with a number of dog holes in the block. That way I could still use a tail vice type of system and push the work more to the middle of the bench so I don't have to have so much space at the end of the bench. I hope to mainly work from the front of the bench.

At 2m it is probably too long but I wasn't thinking of putting the face vice right at the left hand end. More just on the inside of the leg. At 2m I figure it will be the biggest I could use and I could manhandle it all the way to the wall at either end etc. to check for final location of THE bench. Realistically I am not sure but maybe 5' or 6' is probably more in tune with my space and would allow me to work (rather cramped) on all three side.

Any suggestions or advice from you Wiley would be very welcome. I like your bench pics. I haven't worked on a proper bench since I was in school which is getting pretty long agao, but not THAT long ago.:)

Robert

[Jim Becker]

Robert, I just use my mallet (made of osage orange...) to whack the hold-downs when I want to "install" them or "remove" them. No hammer necessary and you actually don't need to hit them all that hard...better than you don't, actually. Too tight and you have to wack them hard to get them un-done! You want just enough tension to "hold-fast"...as it were.... :)

[Wiley Horne]

Robert,

I will key my answers to your questions......
______________
Question 1.
How easy is it to remove the LV twin screw from the bench and reinstall it later. (just front jaws and screws etc)?
(My thinking...a) install the twin screw for the majority of my work and when ocasionally needed remove it so I can clamp larger (wide and longish) panels against the front of the bench. Then just reinstall the screws and front jaw assembly when done.
b)Also thinking (just thinking at the moment ) about having holes drilled in a skirt (rear jaw) for installation of the twin screw vice at each end of the bench bench so that I can change my working set up until I finalise the location.
___________
ANSWER to Q1: (a) Removing the twin-screw is conceptually quite simple, but in real life will be a big deal to you, because the whole front jaw+screws+ hardware is a big, heavy, and ungainly thing, and you won't have a place to put it, and bottom line, you'll find a way not to have to do it (IMO).

(b) interchangeability between ends is also quite possible, except it would mean that you would need to provide working room at both ends, and probably shorten the bench. Besides, I'm going to argue below that you will always want to plane toward the most open end.

_________________
Question 2.
How long are the twin vice's screws? How far from the rear jaw face do they protrude?

ANSWER Q2. I'll get this info tomorrow and post. IIRC, the total length of the main screws is about 15", and the projection from the _front_ jaw face is approx. 5". But I will get exact figures tomorrow.

__________________
Question 3.
If using the LV twin screw vice for a face vice, (has anyone got this set-up?) do the handles etc. get in the way when face jointing on the bench top itself (say between dogs). How much do they protrude? Is it better to be able to just work along an unecumbered bench edge? Remember I am using a workmate now so I have no idea.
__________________
ANSWER Q3. I have this set up. First, let's back up. The strongest advice I have is that you want to be planing toward the most open end of the bench. You're right handed. So you want the left end to be the most open end--at least 30" I would estimate. Otherwise, you will feel claustrophobic, and feel like the wall is coming up way too fast. Now, if you buy this much, then the second point is that the twin-screw face vise won't be in your way if you're planing toward it--i.e., if it's on the left end--because your arm stroke and the plane's length will cover it. On the other hand, if the twin-screw is on your hip as you begin the stroke, i.e., if it's on the right end, yes, it will be in your way for both face jointing and edge jointing.

______________

I have decided to go with the Veritas hold downs also rather than the regular holdfasts. And if I go with the twin screw face vice I will need a skirt as a rear jaw. so now to questions 4.

Question 4.
Is there any example of where I would need to clamp something to the top with regular type clamps that I can't use the LV hold downs? (Sorry, brain dead, I can't think of any examples )
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ANSWER to Q4. Yes, there are, IME. You might want to clamp a sticking board along the front edge of your bench. Use a cleat in the front vise, but still the off-end needs real support. And a holddown won't hold against lateral loads IME, unless you have a batten wedged back behind it. I like to clamp tail boards along the edge when transferring marks to the pin board--however, many others just loose-lay the tails board on the pins board. But I would predict you will find reasons to want to clamp stuff down onto the bench top. To do this, and still have a skirt, you will need a thick skirt, which has about a 3" projection and gives you that much clamping capacity. This means that your legs would not be flush in front, so your skirt becomes your vertical clamping surface. As an alternative, you could use the LV holddowns in conjunction with a wedge system to provide a backstop against lateral forces for most top clamping situations I can think of, but giving up direct top clamping with conventional clamps is a big concession, and I would rather live with a thick skirt (which I do).

Bench points:-
_____________________
Question 5.
How much foot room under the front long stretcher is needed? What is typical?

ANSWER Q5. I think 3-4" is OK.
_____________________
Question 6.
What is your recommended maximum span between legs/supports for say a spruce top just under 4" thick?
(I plan on getting some 105mm square laminated spruce posts (reasonably cheap from the borg here)) and laminate them together into a top and then I will have to plane it down to level the top so it will be a bit less than the original 105mm.

This is an embarrasing one but hey, you aren't born with the knowledge are ya.

SUGGESTION re Q6. If you're going to have drawers or cabinets under there, I suggest you establish 3 bays under the bench, using two vertical sheets of 3/4" plywood dadoed into a plywood or three-bay frame-and-panel back (which gives you a shear wall against racking), and dadoed shallowly underneath the top. This would give you direct support under the top at about 18" centers, and it would be way stout. Of course, now we're getting away from the idea that this is a temporary bench!
____________

Question 7.
Are all the racking forces in the longitudinal direction basically resisted by the long stretches only? I was thinking of using the same 105mm square laminated spruce posts for the legs and the stretchers, too.

Or since I am wanting to put cabintes or drawers under the bench anyway, would it be better to just put a ply panel in the back joining the rear legs together. How is a good way to do this if this is the way to go?
___________________

SUGGESTION Q7. If you put cabinets/drawers under the bench, yes, use 3/4" plywood or a 3-bay frame/panel in back, to serve as a shear wall against racking. Or if the thing is up against a wall, tie it to a ledger lagged into the wall studs. On the construction detail, see The Workbench Book when it arrives--it's got an example or two, with drawings. Lots of options on the leg/back/drawer bay design.
___________________


More tomorrow on twin-screw details......Wiley

[Robert Trotter]

You have gone to a lot of trouble. Thanks.

So If I follow, then you would recomend putting the face vice toward the left end and plane into it. Have a follow through area at the left end, so have the bench located more to the right side of my work space to allow for this.

And don't think too much about removing the face vice.

I checked out the other bench with the reversed hardware again and it is 8'3" whic is quite a bit longer than mine will be so that is probably why it works. He still has my bench length extra to the vice length as well.

So to a regular layout. or a crothet and leg vice.

You said to daddo the ply sheets into the underside of the top and a rear panel/sheet...So, cut the daddo and then glue it in, is that right?

Wiley, do you use the face vice a lot?

Waiting with anticipation on the vice details.

Are there any down sides to the twin vices?


Robert

[James Owen]

Thanks James for your time and effort in addressing my questions......




Robert
<<As to Question 1, "Why move it?" ...




My work space will be just a bit over 9' wide. So if I had a twin screw at say 24" centres (Why 24"? - I am thinking that it will allow me to hold drawers and assembled components etc in the vice between the screws.) And then my bench length, and some space to start and follow through on a planing stroke then there wouldn't be a lot of available length between the end of the bench and the vice screw for putting a panel or something in.



I am not thinking of doing very large projects at the moment but if I did and needed to say finish the edge of a large cabinet door or panel then I would need to remove the twin screw and just clamp with holdfast or hold downs to the bench. (vertically against the front of the bench and legs) Removing the vice would mean I could use the full width of my bench to support a panel of some sort.>>


As Wiley noted, removing and then re-installing a vice is a real pain, plus it offers many opportunities for misalignment, bending, etc. You may want to think this through again.

For a 9' wide work space, I would think that a 2 metre bench would be fine; slightly tight at the ends perhaps, but still very usable even with a tail/end vice of some sort. A 6' bench saves you only about 6½ to 7 inches over a 2 meter bench, and IME (building bookcases and similar sized pieces), anything shorter than 6' starts to get pretty cramped for bench-top real estate. Even though my bench is in the center of my shop and all four sides are accessible, I find that I use the front side the most, with the tail vice end getting the next most amount of use.



Before sinking a lot of money and time into building a bench of X length/Y width and then possibly finding that it is too short/long or narrow/wide, may I suggest that you do a mock up of your proposed size(s) with cardboard and Styrofoam or something similar (and cheap). That way, you can tweak the sizes (length, width, and height) to give you the best fit in your work space, before you spend a fair amount of cash, time, effort, etc., to build something (semi-) permanent that might not fit the way you want it to.
<<I know I could get some technical details from Veritas but I was hoping that there were people out there with a twin screw who have used it and know about its limits and installation etc. Real life reports are the most informative I think.>>Over on the Knots forum (http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Community/CommunityHome.aspx?), there's a member whose screen name is "Lataxe." He recently build a very nice bench in a fairly restricted space (dimensions similar to yours) and installed a couple of Veritas twin screw vices on his bench. He's a very nice guy and very helpful; I'm sure he could provide you with lots of practical info and answer your questions on them.
<<The 4" square stretchers came from my thinking that I would just buy the posts which are just under 3m in length. This would mean two bench top pieces and a leg from each. So just buy one more post and it should work out to be just about right for material. But I could just get a 2x6 or 2x4. Would "2 by" something be adequate>>


Using 2 X ?? lumber would certainly be adequate, but if you're looking for STOUT, your original idea to use 4 X 4 would certainly work. Since it sounds like you will be doing a fair amount of hand work, and especially planing, I'd suggest going with the heavy-duty version (budget allowing, of course). Your original plan also has the virtue of adding weight to your bench. IME, a bench weighing less than 250 lbs to 300 lbs will move when you are hand planing (unless it is otherwise restrained). In the majority of cases, heavier is most certainly better. (Of course, if you add cabinets and tools underneath, this will also add to the weight.)
<<I was thinking of M&T joints ( no glue) for the legs and stretchers and using bolts which would allow for disassembly and re-sizing the bench until I find the best fit for my space.>>


M&T with bolts will work fine, and, as you're probably aware, a pretty common fastening method for stretchers.
<<For cabinets under, should I make the bench and cabinets separately and just slide them in the space and fix then to the bench frame? OR Just add some ledgers (proper name ?) around the frame and just screw ply sides, and back and bottom onto these then hang some doors off the legs? >>


You could go either way. If it were my bench, I probably go with two or three separate cabinets and slide them onto the stretchers. The weight of the cabinets, themselves, along with the weight of the tools, etc., placed inside them will keep them in place.

Hope this gives you some useful ideas.

[Wiley Horne]

Hello Robert,

Vise length.....The total projection of the twin-screw bicycle gearing and handle assembly beyond the outer face of the front jaw is 5". So the total projection of the vise beyond the bench top equals 5" + (width of front jaw).

The gross usable length of the main screws is approx. 16-1/2". This includes the length of main screw running through the front and rear jaws. So for example, if the combined thickness of your front and rear jaws is 4", then there would be about 12-1/2" of vise screw projecting beyond the jaws under your bench top (16-1/2" minus 4").

On the plywood vertical dividers and the back.....I haven't thought through the construction details, as I didn't do mine that way. If I had it all to do again, I would though, for simplicity. Also, I'm not clear if your bench is to be freestanding--that's what I am assuming in suggesting the shearwall back--if it's up against the wall, that's different and the back is probably unnecessary.

In regard to specific construction questions, my starting point would be to study the design details in The Workbench Book. On your question about gluing the dividers into a shallow dado under the top--my thought would be not to glue. No advantage and you may as well let the top move independently of the divider--just make sure the divider is shimmed up solidly against the top so it's actually providing support. You're counting on the fit of the divider to provide support under the top--like a joist. A 3-1/2 to 4" top underlain by joist support at 18" would be dead to the hammer, especially if girdled by an apron front jaw.

Do I use the face vise a lot? I use it a lot for edge jointing, and for not much else. I use the twin screw end vise continuously for all manner of operations--tenon sawing, pin and dovetail sawing, transfer of marks from dovetails to pins, holding short pieces for edge jointing, resawing, holding various jigs...it goes on. The thing is, the light is better at that end--I can see better and it's more cheerful. And I find it useful to be able to work on both sides of the vise. If the natural light were near the face vise, I would work there more.

I'm going to send this now, and finish up this evening.

Hope this helps!

Wiley

[Robert Trotter]

I appreciate the reply. The dimensions of the vice screws etc will give me some food for thought for the leg placement etc.


Also, I'm not clear if your bench is to be freestanding--that's what I am assuming in suggesting the shearwall back--if it's up against the wall, that's different and the back is probably unnecessary.

Well...my bench will be up against the wall. My current thinking/wondering is that ;
1) I haven't decide on the final location for best utilising my space (future space).
2) I am worried that if I fix the bench to the wall then noise from bashing things etc. will be amplified through the wall. (neigbours and LOML considerations) BUt I haven't used a bench up against a wall before, so...? I suppose that if it is heavy and has good support at the front then most of the shock should go through the front legs???

Sorry, I didn't think through the idea of gluing the panel into the daddo of the top. Of course it would be better to allow for wood movement. :o Thanks for reminding me.

James..
Thanks for the great reply and advice.

I will be using handtools only so I was looking for heavy and rock stable. I am getting pretty sick of the rodeo ride with the workmate.

I hope to start working on building my walk-in-tool box ( =small shed) soon once I have materials supplies sorted. I will need to make the doors for this shed so I was thinking I would get started on building bench now so I could use it during construction. Thus a semi-temp bench of spruce.

But I see your point about making up a mock-up and fiddle with that for location and size. I like to make models myself to check proportions etc. for my projects.

So I suppose if I wait, I just have a doorless shed for an extended time.

Hopefully the workbench book will come in the next few days, so I will have a read through that.

Thanks for your help and advice Wiley and James.

Robert

[Wiley Horne]

[Continuing]

Robert,

You asked about advantages and disadvantages of the LV twin screw. Well, it kinda all depends on what you're gonna do--for example if you're going to be doing a lot of carving or handling odd-shaped pieces--Queen Anne legs and the like--I would suggest a Tucker vise instead. Also, if you want to start 'light', you might consider a very stout basic platform, such as a Roubo, and emphasize holddowns and the use of stops and wedges on top to secure work for planing. Harry Strasil has a fantastically clever bench, utilizing a wooden twin-screw end vise, plus a system of stops and wedges on top. These stops and wedges are versatile and will solve any planing problem--face or edge planing. There are many bench setups offering solutions, and it kinda depends on your style which you prefer. My particular bent is that I am looking for a relatively 'heavy' set of fixtures which provide an instant and stout solution to most bench operations--i.e., minimal setup. I don't like to shim the offside of vises to avert racking, or do beautiful intricate things with battens and wedges. Just want to slap the board up against the apron, make two turns of the vise handle, and start edge jointing. But if you prefer to travel 'light' and have minimum structure on the bench--particularly on the 'Mark I bench'--there are some great solutions which won't get you into heavy structure that you will be loathe to unwind and change out. Mark II might not happen.

More thoughts on the twin screw....The advantages I see to the LV twin screw are that it has minimal racking vertically and horizontally, and is very flexible, and very stout--you can resaw with it. It is great for holding wide boards vertically for sawing joinery, such as M&T's and dovetails. I might also suggest that you take a look at a traditional twin-screw, utilizing wooden screws--it is more complicated than buying a vise because you yourself have to fabricate some important parts. But in very many ways, it is a great face vise because of its flexibility and strength. Plus it gets you around the skirt issue. And it has a relatively unintrusive front projection. These are great virtues. For the twin screw's strength and versatility, you give up some valuable real estate in front of the bench. A good option in my opinion, along with the wooden twin screw, is the slanting leg vise (Chris Schwartz has posted one fairly recently on his blog, in connection with his English joiner's bench, the Nicholson bench). It has a small footprint in front of the bench.

There is an important caveat in saying that the LV twin screw has minimal racking vertically and horizontally. It is vital that LV's instructions be observed on tapering the inner face of the front jaw by approx. 3/32" from top to bottom (narrower at bottom). This is easy to do with a lunchbox planer by following LV's instructions. If you don't have one, find someone who does. This taper takes up the essential slack in the mechanical fixings of the jaw hardware, so that the top of the front jaw closes tight and square against against the rear jaw under load--if the instructions are not followed, a board clamped in the top of the jaws will cause the vise to gap out of square as it is tightened.

Two other points about the LV twin screw. I can't stand vise racking, and I can't stand jaw sag. LV's instructions are frank to say that the front jaw will sag a bit as the vise is extended. However, you can avoid this, and make the jaw essentially non-sagging, especially in the main working range, which is up to about 6" open (assuming you have 6" spacing on dog holes). There are two things to do. One is to follow LV's suggestion in the instructions to mortise the main screw nuts about 1" into the rear jaw. What this does is place the support of the main screws almost to the exit point of the rear jaw. This minimizes the amount of cantilevering as the jaw is extended. The second thing is to use 'zero clearance' blocking between the screws and the underside of the benchtop. LV says to leave 1/16" clearance: in my experience, you want to slide the blocking in tight enough that the blocking scrapes on the screw threads. I used a soft wood for mine, and would use hard maple if I had it to do over again, just so there would be a little less 'give'. The tight blocking does not make vise operation sticky--I turn the vise handle with one finger. The combination of 'zero clearance' blocking and mortised screw nuts gives the front jaw a lot of support as you open it, and averts the sag which will otherwise occur. Jaw sag isn't fatal, I just don't like it.

These are my initial thoughts. Hopefully others will jump in with lots of pro and con. Benches are a great topic!

Wiley

[Mark Stutz]

Robert,
I have given very serious thought to using the LV twin as a front vise for many of the reasons Wiley mentioned. BTW, thanks for the zero clearance tip, Wiley. I recently demoed this set up at the WW Show. As I edge jointed a 15" or so board centered in the vise, I discovered that the near handle was very close to bing in the way as I finished the stroke...in a very "delicate" location. If I moved the board toward me, the problem was solved. Since this vise resists racking I think it will work, but did give me some "food for thought". Again, another example of "try before you buy" if possible.

Mark

[Wendell Wilkerson]

I want confirm the stuff Wiley said about planing towards the open end of a bench. I put a small Record face vise on the right end of my current bench because I could never understand why vises where on the left end for right handed people. Well, now I do !!! After using it for a couple years, I've decided I don't like the vise on that end of bench. If I wasn't planning to build a better bench I would move it. Almost every operation I do feels awkward especially edge jointing. The vise always feels like its in my way.

Wendell

[James Mittlefehldt]

Robert I have a bench which sounds pretty much identical to Wiley's and I would say that I could not give you any better advice than what he said so eloquently. He is right about following the instructions closely I did and even though I am about as mechanically inclined as a chimp I had little problem assembling and setting up the twin screw vice.

I have my bench free standing so as to work on all sides as required, also I have a pretty much true neander shop and so since I have the space normally occupied by machinery it is no problem.

When I am surfacing boards I work on one side of the bench with a piece of hardwood in the twin screw as a stop to plane against, and then when it comes time to joint the stuff, I have a platform set up that attaches to the opposite side, I rest the board on it depending on thickness, and away I go.

There is an historical precedent for twin screw front vises as the Dominy's used that arrangement in the 1700's, though their main bench was near twelve feet long.

I agree also with Wiley that benches are a great topic, that and tool boxes can really hold my interest.

[Robert Trotter]

Thanks James, Wendal and Mark for the comments. Mark, that was the type of thing I was wanting to know. I was thinking the screws might get in the way a bit if used as a front vice. But it probably isn't much different to my workmate noe as I have to lean over a fair bit when planing, but I don't like the workmate so...

Also I read Mark's thread about back problems and I think that I will try to work as in-line with my body as I can to reduce strain. I am only getting older..:eek: :)

Just been playing with sketchup so here is one idea. Legs to the extremeties. What do you think? Should there be an overhang? Remember my work space area is only about 2.8m (9') wide.

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Robert

[Robert Trotter]

Here is a re-do with the bench being a bit longer and the LHS near to the wall on the left and the face vice moved so that there is follw through space for jointing. The area of bench near the wall could be jus for placing things on.

MODEL 2
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Here is a re-do with the bench having overhangs either end. Bench in the middle of the wall.

MODEL 3
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Is there a benefit of overhangs? Or is it just tradition?

Robert

[Robert Trotter]

I thought it might be good to clarify what my work space is. It is very small.:( But you have to do with waht you have. It will be better than the front hall of the old apartment.;)

Here are some sketches of what it might look like. These are just playing but I'll post them just to give you an idea of the size.

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This is my walk-in tool box. I have posted about it before.
As you can see it is really just a garden shed, but I want to set it up so that I can just open the doors fully and have a workbench and all my tools handy. At the moment I have to drag the workmate out and all my tools from inside and then set up and get my work piece out and muck around a lot before I can start. I have limited space but I think with the doors fully open,( or 'straight out' if I need to keep debrit out when finishing etc) and maybe a shade sail set up at the front to keep the sun off in summer I should have a nice little semi-open workshop. If I need an assembly table I was thinking of just a quick set-up one like a couple of saw benches and top. Easy to pack up and put away and the saw bench could also be used as a stool when needed.

I was hoping to be working mainly at the front of the bench which would mean that I am in the doorway (1.8m) and it wouldn't be cramped really. Just open.

I have shown cabinets and a shelf (wood storage). BUt the final layout is undecided. The cabinets if I do them will only be deep enough to put my planes and tools away behind some wood too try and reduce rust etc. (good idea or not?)

Robert

[Wiley Horne]

Hi Robert,

First, I want to withdraw almost all of my suggestions to date, now that I have seen your plans. Especially misplaced were those notions about a back for the bench and permanent drawer bays--all that stuff that smacks of permanent structure was all wrong. What you are showing in your graphics is more sensible: Things that are simple and modular, easily built and assembled, and easily disassembled too.

I don't believe there is an overhang aesthetic or tradition. It's more about the placement of vises and the overall logic of construction. For example, if you are going to us the LV twin screw, the main screws need to be at least 1-3/4" away from the leg posts, to make room for the square flange plate that holds the nut. So in your drawing, you'd want the main screws to have a couple inches clearance away from the leg.

Have you ever considered building the Nicholson bench, or English joiner's bench? Here is a sequence done by Chris Schwarz. He used a slanted leg vise in front. The original Nicholson, illustrated at the bottom of Chris' page here, used something more like the twin screw. I mention this bench because it's a good bench and relatively simple to build, and you'd be in business in a reasonable amount of time. For what it's worth:

http://www.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/CategoryView,category,English%20Workbench.aspx

Wiley

[Robert Trotter]

Wiley,
I did think a bit about the English bench because it looked simpler to build and I could probably knock something up quickly using two-by... material. And have something to work on quite soon. But the wide apron, which I assume helps to give the bench its lateral racking resistance, would reduce the amount of accessible space under the bench, I thought. Space for storage etc. will be at a premium. Just like the space generally here in Japan.;)

Robert.

PS. Tight space isn't it?