Need dust collection advice.....

[Jim Izat]

Evening folks,

I am about to buy either a Fein shop vac or the Jet 1200 with the canister for dust collection. Odd choice you say? Well I can't decide if I just want to keep shoveling and sweeping and use the vac for final cleaning and sanding, routing etc. Or go the whole hog and get the Jet collector and attached to one machine at a time. My concern with the collector is that I'll have to retrofit all my stationary tools (and my planer) with dust hoods which may run into more money. Also either way I'll probably have to get a ceiling mount air cleaner to really keep things clear.
Questions:
Based on my concerns above which would you do? Get the vac or the DC and why?
What sort of expense might I be looking at over and above the dc for dust hoods/adapters (cabinet saw, DJ-20, band saw, dewalt planer, dewalt cms).
Which Fein vac model would you recommend?

Thanks for the help. Tired of coughing and snoring too loud. Ten years is enough!

Jim Izat

[Kevin Gerstenecker]

I am also in the market for a whole shop dust collection system. I have been using a HUGE Shop Vac, but it is time to move up to something that will handle all of my machines. The thought of Blast Gates and not moving the Vac from machine to machine is very appealing, not to mention so much easier, and quicker. I have been looking at Grizzly and a few others, but I would like to know what the Woodworkers here have to say as well. It seems like the benefits will far outweigh the cost in the long run. Some say that these dual bag collectors only remove about 10% of the dust, and if that is correct, I guess the smaller pariculate filtering bags would be in order as well? This is a purchase that is coming in a month or so, and I welcome any and all advice I can get on this subject. I would also welcome advice on where would be the best place to purchase a system Thanks in advance for any and all information!

[John Miliunas]

Jim, if it's the coughing and snoring you're primarily after, then a good respirator will do wonders. If you're still wanting for something to plug in, then a good 3-stage air cleaner hanging up above will help, as well.

If you're dead set on the original choice, then IMHO, I'd go for the Jet Canister. It will take the greatest amount of dust away from the machine(s) before it gets airborne. How much to spend on the peripherals? Tough one. Simple universal attachments are only six or seven bucks. More complex ones, such as proprietary units for planers can go thirty to about fifty bucks. (I made my own for my old Ryobi lunchbox planer and capture no less than 95% of the chips!) Total or even high percentage capture for the CMS requires some real custom shroud building around the perimeter of it. The cabinet TS is easy on the bottom half, but you still have the stuff coming off the blade. Unless you make your own (read that as the Gordon Sampson unit back at the Pond), commercial units aren't real cheap. If you were to get the Jet, I'd go to Woodcraft or the such and get one of their DC starter kits. Not a bad deal. Dust collector shrouds, a good quality hose, some clamps and I think there may even be a blast gate or two. (I forget.) If you go whole-hog and start ducting stuff, it's not unusual for a guy to spend close to or *more* than the original DC for all the piping, turns, clamps, etc....

If the idea behind the Fein is its great filtering, you can pick up low micron filters for even the guzillion hp Craftsman vacs. If it's filtering AND the noise, then yeah, Fein is hard to beat.

In the final analysis, if it's your health that your concerned about, I think one should start paying a little less attention to the $$ and more to the quality and efficiency of the equipment. If you don't have the bucks now, get a good respirator and save until you can get more complete systems, maybe even including a cyclone.

Whew...Sorry for running at the mouth, but as I grow older, personal safety and health are slowly becoming more paramount in my priority list(s). Good luck! :cool:

[Paul Kunkel]

:( It's a fact that as we get older we must try to take better care of ourselves. (does that mean I have to give up my beer:confused: ) Spend some $$ now with a good system that'll make you healthy and happy or later paying hospital bills. You'd be suprised at how many people come to my shop and say 'how do you keep it so clean? do you do any work here? I won't try to advocate one DC over another as mine could use improvement but do some homework and buy a system. Check out my shop tour!:)

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I have a 2hp cyclone and it makes a world of difference, but I still get enough dust and chip debris to use a shop vac regularly (it puts out most of the fine dust in the shop!). I need an above table guard to effectively catch the dust from the table saw and I do enough hand held routing to make a mess. Then there's the chips from the hand planing and drilling and on and on. I guess what I'm saying is the dust collector is not the panacea I thought it'd be, but I like it a lot better with it than without.

[Todd Burch]

Hi Jim.

In the fall of 1999, I bought a complete Onieda Cylcone unit. Thankgiving, 2002, I installed it. That's got to be one of the stupidest things I've ever done - waiting 3 years to install something that can affect my health so much.

It is wonderful, as any central dust collection system would be. I probably spent $1800, and for my current shop, it is about 1/2 the size it really needs to be (It's a 1.5HP, and I need a 3HP).

I still use a shop vac, and a Fein would be good. I duct tape my wet/dry vac to my orbital sander just about every time I sand (ROS) now. My belt sander has a bag, but it really spreads the dust regardless. And, the router, (free hand - the table has good collection), if not the biggest dust producer, the second biggest, is a mess. If I had my druthers, I would build a room just for routing.

My next attack on dust will be a downdraft sanding table. I've already accumulated the furnace blowers, and the MDF for the box is lined up in front of the saw...

Spend the $$ do what's good for your health.

Todd.

[Terry Hatfield]

You need both.

You need a central dust collector for the larger machines and a smaller shop vac for the circular saw , belt sander , router and other hand held tools. A dust collector does not do a very good job with these smaller tools. You simply cannot flow enough air through those itty bitty hose connections to make a DC effective.

Now with that being said.....you can buy a small shop vac and a good filter like a Clean Stream that will do a good job on the hand helds for under $100 total.

The larger machines can be serviced by rolling around a DC , but that gets to be a pain. Get atleast a 2 hp. collector and run some 6" ducts and you have a great system. You can build blast gates and re fit HVAC register boots for just about any big tool you have for very little money.

Check here to see.....

http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/Cyclone/Terry%20Hatfield%20DC%20ducts.htm

I will also have a bunch of new pics of my shop with the cyclone on my site soon.

Here is a example of what can be done for cheap. I made this hood for almost nothing from a HVAC register boot.

just my 4 cents,

Terry

[Bill Sams]

Last summer '02 I purchased a 3Hp Oneida system, the difference is amazing in many ways. No cleaning up mounds of sawdust, less dust in the air, not moving a seperate dc from machine to machine, not coughing and choking. Yes as others have mentioned there is still dust and debris from hand work, routing, palm sanding. I going to build a sanding plenum for palm sanding.
This is one investment I didn't want to buy twice, upgrading like so many of us done over time. i spent around $3900.00 for the complete system, cyclone, duct work, gates, flex hose, etc. Go to Oneida-air website and check things out for yourself, read the comparison pages, you'll understand the difference.
good luck

[J.R. Rutter]

My 2 HP blower is just enough for my one-man operation. I'm wishing for 3-5 HP now though, because when I have help, things aren't as clean. I bolted on the Oneida 650 cyclone and got one of their canister filters. No more respirator for me unless I'm doing something very hard to collect at the source, like big climb cuts. I also use a big shop vac for connection to sanders and circular saw. The Fein stuff is amazing, and if I had the $$, I would have one. You have to put your hand on it to tell if it is running, it is that quiet.

Anyway, If I were you, I would get a DC like the Jet 1200 canister and rearrange things so that you can reach most machines with short runs of hose. The get blast gates and put them as close to the collector as possible. this will give you a taste of how nice a central system can be.

[Spence DePauw]

When I built my "dream shop" last year, I built in the cost of a 3hp Blue Tornado cyclone system. They did the duct engineering (sizes and routing). All the stationary tools are piped up. I use an overarm guard/collector on the table saw and unless you are just taking 1/8" off the edge, rips are mostly dust free. There still is some dust though. With the 3hp cyclone, I can use a 25' piece of 2.5" hose with the shop vac tools and it does fine at sweeping the floor, tool tops, etc. I also have a small ceiling mounted air cleaner.

Like your plan, I just bought a Fein at the Woodcraft 10% day to use mostly with the ROS

Link to Blue Tornado below. They were very good to work with. It's a small company, but a lot of what they do is bigger than home systems.

http://www.bluetornadocyclones.com/

Let me know if you want more info.

Spence

[John Miliunas]

Jim, et al. As it happens, I currently have a pretty nice 2hp DC (Bridgewood), running through a seperator and then piped throughout my small shop via 4" PVC. Does it work? Yes. Does it work really well? Hmmmm on some of the stuff. Strangely enough, the best job happens on my planer w/homemade shroud.

At any rate, we're looking at buying a different homestead and the joint has a big workshop. I've already got blessings from LOML to upgrade my DC system. After reading a bunch of stuff, reviews, user reports, etc..., I think I'm pretty well settled on the "Woodsucker". I've been in contact with Larry over there and these folks appear to be extremely helpful. The basic system, w/o ducting, will be just under a grand. I'm hoping I can get by with 6" PVC main system and drops and only convert down as close to the machine as I can.

Jim, I guess what I'm trying to say is, that even after having the advantage of a nice DC, chip seperator, 1 micron bags and ducting, I still see a need for a better system. Once again, don't sell yourself short on your health! We want to see a lot of your work for a LONG time to come!:cool:

[Steve Roxberg]

I hear about people using PVC, why? Is it because it's cheaper than metal spiral pipe?

Personally, I'd rather have metal spiral, the PVC is heavy, collects static, and costs about the same doesn't it?

[Terry Hatfield]

Steve,

I have all S&D PVC in my shop. I find it easy to work with , easy to find at my local plumbing supply and realatively cheap. The PVC is in 10' sections so it goes up quickly and easily. The PVC ducts are a ton quieter than metal. I tore out a all metal system to put in the PVC!!! I recently changed almost all of mine again to fit the cyclone. It only took me only 2 nites to get it all done. I have had no static problems at all , but I think that can be attributed to AR's high humidity as much as anything. If static is a problem a bleed wire wrapped around the outside solves the trouble. I think the PVC looks really nice also.

Bottom line......It's really just a personal choice , but I sure do like the PVC and would not change it.

Thanks,

Terry

[Todd Burch]

Terry, what a clean and bright shop! Is this it's typical look, or was it posed?!!!!

[Terry Hatfield]

Todd,

I should probably wait for my "buddies" to chime in and give me the usual rash....but it is pretty much always that way. I leave time to tidy up a bit at the end of every day. The shop has 3 overhead doors , 2 walk door and 2 windows so on a windy day you just open it all up and get out of the way!!

Thanks,

Terry

[John Miliunas]

Originally posted by Todd Burch
Terry, what a clean and bright shop! Is this it's typical look, or was it posed?!!!!

Todd, I don't believe I've ever seen *any* shop pictures posted by Terry, which didn't look as though the maid had just been there! I'm seriously thinking about copying the pic, blowing it up, printing it and then sticking it up in my shop as a reminder! I always seem to leave any cleaning until the end of a project (or two or three....).

Hey Terry, did you have any assistance (from Oneida, Woodsucker, similar) with your duct run design? I know I'm putting the cart before the horse, because I'm not in that "new" shop yet, but it's good to be prepared. (Ok, ok....Good to dream!):cool:

[Dave Hammelef]

If your looking for a dust collector check out woodsucker.com. Nice machine at a great price. I use 6" s&D (well did in the old shop and will in the new). If your system is big enough for what your using it for and you have good filters you should not have dust settling out after you use your tools. I suggest running the 6" as far as you can before transitioning to 4".

Dave

[Terry Hatfield]

Hey John....

NOPE...just little old me!!! And Bill P. of course.

It's really not hard. Make your runs as short as possible.Use 2 45's instead of 1 90 and run as big as you can for as far as you can.

See simple.:)

If I could answer any questions when you get to the new shop ducts don't hesitate to ask. I sure don't know it all but I'm glad to share what I do know.

Thanks,

Terry

[John Miliunas]

Originally posted by Terry H in NW Ar.
Hey John....

NOPE...just little old me!!!

It's really not hard. Make your runs as short as possible.Use 2 45's instead of 1 90 and run as big as you can for as far as you can.

See simple.:)

If I could answer any questions when you get to the new shop ducts don't hesitate to ask. I sure don't know it all but I'm glad to share what I do know.

Thanks,

Terry

Thanks Terry! I'll be sure to drop you a line if this whole thing comes to fruition. Yup, agree on the dual 45's, too. My current system, crude as it may be, does not have a single 90 in it. I've even got an Excalibur overarm guard/collector and didn't like the way the 3" hose made an almost 180 back into the overhead tube, so I Y'd off my 4" and went straight to the guard. Works pretty well, but I still need more volume on the whole system.

Oh, and Dave, thus far, Woodsucker is #1 on my list when I'm ready for one. I think it gives the most bang for your $ and is getting real good reviews, to boot. :cool:

[Phil Phelps]

Originally posted by Terry H in NW Ar.
Steve,

I have all S&D PVC in my shop. I find it easy to work with , easy to find at my local plumbing supply and realatively cheap. The PVC is in 10' sections so it goes up quickly and easily. The PVC ducts are a ton quieter than metal. I tore out a all metal system to put in the PVC!!! I recently changed almost all of mine again to fit the cyclone. It only took me only 2 nites to get it all done. I have had no static problems at all , but I think that can be attributed to AR's high humidity as much as anything. If static is a problem a bleed wire wrapped around the outside solves the trouble. I think the PVC looks really nice also.

Bottom line......It's really just a personal choice , but I sure do like the PVC and would not change it.

Thanks,

Terry

Man, did you have to post "that" picture, Terry. Arggggg. Where's my broom. :rolleyes:

[Terry Hatfield]

Phil....

Yes I did. he he he

Terry

[Phil Phelps]

But, have any of you followed Bill Penz recommendations for dust collection. Bill is as bright as they come. Has wonderful ideas and solutions. I'm gonna' e-mail him and see why he isn't over here. Bob Lemmon is another. As for the TS, you really should have an overhead arm and a hose in the bottom. I saw lot's of MDF and the reduction in dust is amazing. Also, you guys should change to a micro bag and up your hose to 6". ( I'm sayin' all this and haven't done it) Those that have, report almost double the draw. With all this help, I think one should be able to get something going. Dust collection is a major issue in woodworking.

[Bob Lemon]

Thanks, Phil, but I thought you knew how to spell my last name ;) .

I will add a couple of things to this conversation. First, 2 - 45 deg. elbows have the same static loss as a 90 deg., assuming they are turned in the same direction. If they are hooked together and not turned in the same direction, the static loss will be higher.

When figuring the system static loss, do not calculate the loss through a given length of pipe at the rate of 100 ft. For instance, 10 ft of 4" connected to a 6" trunk line will only have a minor influence on the total air flow. Actually the static intensity of the 6" could be more. Use as little flex as possible.

To answer the original question, consider the fact that your shop vac would be worthless without that hose and pickup nozzle. A larger hose and nozzle on your central system will do a better job. I've been using longer lengths of 3" collapsible wire reinforced tubing for years. I also have a 3" nozzle that the hose plugs into. That high volume, with a foxtail brush, does a great job. Our shop vac spends most of it's time in the house!

Onieda's web site compares a 5" metal duct system to a 4" plastic system. To top it off, they put a "T" in the line just before the collector. That "T" could be equal to as much as 50' of straight duct work. How come they haven't compared their 5" metal system to a 6" plastic system? Also noone has ever come up with any certified proof that plastic pipe can cause explosions, but metal on metal will spark. That is why many industrial systems use aluminum impellors.

I haven't heard from or talked to Bill Pentz for a couple of weeks. He lives within a few miles of me.

Bob

[Bob Lemon]

Sorry, typist error: that should read -- 6" flexible compared to 4" rigid. Sonja:rolleyes:

[Terry Hatfield]

I called Bill earlier tonite to make sure he knew his presence was being requested here on the Creek. Believe it or not he was out with the guys!!!! A welcome releif from his job/website craziness I'm sure. His presence will be felt here before long. He can't resist a good forum discussion you know!!!!

Bob,

I do not doubt your information at all but can you explain why 2 45's are not better than 1 90??? It seems that they make a longer radius than the 90 would. Also if the 45's are seperated by a length of pipe does this make any difference?? I did this very thing on my TS drop. It sure looked like it would be better than just a 90 but now I'm not sure. You can see what I'm asking about in this pic. I have used this idea in other places in my system as well.

BTW...one great thing about the Creek is that those of us who routinely screw up something in a post can just hit the edit button and fix it.

TIA,

Terry

[David Mathias]

John,

I have been considering a Woodsucker. I am interested in your statement
that the system without ducting is just under $1000. Is this the $749
2 hp system? If so, what is the additional cost? Thanks for any information -
I haven't yet contacted Woodsucker and would like to know as much as
possible before I do.

David

[John Miliunas]

Originally posted by David Mathias
John,

I have been considering a Woodsucker. I am interested in your statement
that the system without ducting is just under $1000. Is this the $749
2 hp system? If so, what is the additional cost? Thanks for any information -
I haven't yet contacted Woodsucker and would like to know as much as
possible before I do.

David

Oooops...My bad. When I was doing my estimates, the "under a grand" included mounting the unit outside my shop, under cover. I figured the $100 or so would cover what would be needed to finish enclosing it and adding some soundproofing. Also would need 8" HVAC run for the return side out of the filter and back into the shop, so I don't lose my conditioned air.

David, the following is what I got from Woodsucker. Quote on shipping would vary depending on location.


The 2 HP Cyclone is currently $749.00 (includes brackets and filter). Shipping and handling for the cyclone to Zip 53503 is $87.00 (5 boxes by UPS Ground).

The 35-gallon drum with neck and 8" flex hose is $40.00. Shipping cost for the cyclone with the drum is $95.00. The 8" flex hose is 12 inches long and is used to connect the bottom of the cyclone to the drum.

Hope this helps clarify what I was trying to say. Sheeesh...Aren't you guys into ESP?:D

[Paul B. Cresti]

Do yourself (and lungs) a favour and invest in a dust collection system. If woodworking is a serious hobby for you, you will be spending a lot of time in that shop and spending a lot of $ on equipment. One of the first things to worry about is safety/health. In my previous two shops I went from a grizzly 2hp bag collector to a Woodsucker. The Woodsucker in itself is an incredible design but the most important thing is the duct sizing and layout. Get some books on DC and layout your own system.

Good luck,
Paul B. Cresti

[David Mathias]

Thanks for the clarification John. I had guessed about $100 for shipping
so with the barrel it is just about $900. I just wanted to make sure that
there weren't some hidden costs that I wasn't counting on.

David