Are the US Woodworking Machinery Companies going the way of the US Auto Industry?

[Rich Konopka]

I was in Woodcraft not too long ago and I couldn't help to notice that the inventory of Big 3 US companies Delta, Jet, and PM was thin. I did see Rikon, General, and Festool. I noticed that the BORG's don't really carry Delta, Jet or PM. I know this stuff can still be found at Amazon, Coastal, etc...

Have the Big 3 in US woodworking seen their glory days? Have they lowered the bar that the competition is hurting them? I bought a Delta TS, DJ20, and DP. But if I were to get a new tablesaw I would definitely look at Grizzly, Sawstop or one of the European sliders. I went with an Italian Bandsaw instead of a US big 3 BS. At the time I felt it was worth it to spend the extra $$ for the MM16 instead of the Big 3 Chinese BS. I felt that the Big 3 US companies have lowered their standards without lowering their prices. Am I off base?

I'm just curious if you would consider or have recently bought a piece of equipment other than the US big 3?

Thanks

[Greg Hairston]

Rich,
A major issue with stores like woodcraft and others carrying the big three is profit margin. It is hard for the stores to carry these machines because there is very little mark up and Amazon sells things so cheap it is hard to compete. This is why you see the Rikons and festools in the stores. They have a limited distrubution policy that allows the stores to make a small profit margin.
For instance if a Delta table saw sells for $1000.00 the small store probably had to pay $900.00 for it after freight. So this is just over a 10% profit margin which is not very good. Now if the tool does not sell (lets say deltal releases a new line two weeks later) the store is stuck with a 900.00 display item. Then they usually have to mark it down to cost just to unload it.
The other companies are easier to deal with. They provide the store a bigger profit margin (not much bigger only around 20% on average which does not pay for overhead) and are much easier for the stores to negotiate with. They will make terms with the store allowing them to return excess stock after X months.
Also the Big companies customer support is going down hill fast. Trying to get a delta rep on the phone is like trying to win the lotery.

I think this is why you see less and less of these machines on store floors and more and more of the other guys

Greg

[Chris Barton]

Hi Rich,

You pose an interesting question but, about 30 years after the revolution has actually occured. First, the brands we so closely identify as being "american" aren't. Jet, Powermatic, Delta, they are all made overseas now and have been for some time. Labor is the issue. This is one reason why Grizzly is such a popular tool line. When your product is made where the average production line worker earnes $2/hr vs $20-50/hr and all the associated benefits, it doesn't take Steven Hawkins to figure out where the profit margin is. Sadly, I don't see any potential for a reversal in this trend.

However, power tools are better made, safer, more reliable and more affordable than ever. When I first started woodworking my initial major purchase was a Craftsman contractor style table saw (approx. 1980). As I recall that saw was around $400 some 27 years ago (and I still have it but, don't use it often). That same $400 is probably worth $1-2K these days. When I bought the Craftsman, it was one of the few offerings available to a hobbiest woodworker. Today for that money I have many choices and far superior capabilities to chose from. While the heyday of USA tools may be in our rearview mirror, the road ahead has many opportunities.

[Chris Jenkins]

I think it hard to say what exactly is going on. Off the top of my head I have noticed less and less stores carrying Delta products. It seems Delta has switched over to focusing on their yellow proudct line as of late rather than their grey machinery line (though their new DP's with 6" quill travel look cool that will be coming out)

I see more and more JET product replacing Delta product out by me. Lowes now carries some of their product and they never used to. Menards carries a lot of JET product and always has by me.

Regarding PM, I think most people forget about what they really sell. Industrial Equipment. Most people like us think about the 66 and 3520B, but really a lot of PM's line is industrial. Like Dovetailers and large jointers, cut off machines and heavy duty mortisers. Stuff that light production work is done on. This type of machinery isn't sitting on the shelf at any BORG, you have to go to a dealer to get this type of equipment.

My two cents.

[Jim Becker]

I'm not surprised at this phenomenon as it's endemic to most of the business community today. It used to be that business and industry was driven by customer needs and pride in product/service was paramount. Today, business and industry is driven by "Wall Street" and cost cutting. Further, society exacerbates the problem by demanding lower and lower prices, despite the higher and higher costs of producing "stuff"...so business and industry finds ways to lower that cost, sometimes to the detriment of quality and longevity.

Nearly all of us in this community contribute to the problem...we're always looking for "a deal" or a "cheaper way to do something". While this is a natural thing to do given financial reality, it doesn't contribute to reversing the problem. Consumer behavior needs to change if we we want the companies that product the products to change. If we refuse to buy "bad stuff" or "good enough stuff", choosing instead to invest our hard-earned money on products that exhibit quality and versatility, then we're voting for how we want business and industry to support us. It starts with individuals, but really needs to encompass the whole community. Sadly, I don't think it's going to happen.

But at least we do have choices...

[Kurt Forbes]

festool is one example of people useing their purchaseing power to vote for quality products over bottom line. No one that buys festool eally talks about how cheap they got it they just discuss how well it works and how much better they work or enjoy that work.

[glenn bradley]

We must be discussing US managed companies because very little product is made here anymore it seems. This could blossom into an overall discussion of economics (which I hope it doesn't). I do share the sense of loss some of us feel at seeing 'Made in China' stamped all over our tools. Now if only the prices reflected the reduction in quality, we'd all have a shop full of tools.

[Pete Brown]

festool is one example of people useing their purchaseing power to vote for quality products over bottom line. No one that buys festool eally talks about how cheap they got it they just discuss how well it works and how much better they work or enjoy that work.

Sawstop is another, as are the European high-end tools (MM etc.)

Part of the issue besides cost, IMHO, is complacency. With only minor exceptions, American-owned woodworking companies aren't innovating like they once did. Heck, they're not even taking good foreign ideas and adopting them with any real speed (look how long it took for riving knives to show up)

My wife and I both drive hondas. Near the end of the year, we're going to get a decked-out Odyssey and I'll take her Pilot. Those cars definitely cost more than most American cars. However, they are built better (in my experience, having owned several american cars as well), last longer and have more features for the buck. Cheap labor isn't really a factor in these as they are assembled in many of the same places American cars are (see latest consumer reports for a story about where many "american" cars actually come from). My point here is that while cost is definitely an issue, especially when it comes to mid and low ticket items, when you get into higher ticket items (good tools, cars etc.), cost is not the primary differentiator - in fact, the US tools/cars often have cost on their side.

I agree with Jim that it is unlikely that we'll see the cheaper/faster trend change based just on consumer activity. We're all adicted to our "stuff" (me included) including just about everything with a plug on it in our houses.

I try and buy quality whenever I can. Sometimes that is American (Sherline cnc mill and lathe, Oneida dust collector) and other times that ends up being European (Festool stuff, MM16 bandsaw).

Pete

[Paul Johnstone]

Has Jet ever made anything in America? I don't think so. IIRC, they got started by undercutting the delta version of tools by about $40-50, and grew market share.

IMO, the problem with Delta is now that they've moved their stuff overseas, it's hard to differentiate them from anyone else. Look at the 8" jointer threads. The shop fox parallelogram 8" jointer for $700 delivered (to a loading dock, you pick up), vs the Delta DJ-20 on special which was about $1100 delivered (to your house).. Now to make apples to apples, I think the shop fox was $850 delivered to your house.

That was a hard choice, because they seemed identical, other than the motors. In the end, I picked the DJ-20, but if it wasn't on sale (and was $1600), I would've done the shop fox as well.. I'm ok with paying $250 for the DJ-20, just because I'm more comfortable with Delta (not a slam on Shop Fox, they seem to get a lot of praise, it's just irrational personal comfort). Most people are not making decisions that way.

So Delta now has all these import companies (Grizzly, Shop Fox, etc) attacking them on the low end, as well as new dealers attacking them on the high end.. such as Steel City and Sawstop. I'd even go so far as to say that Rikon is an emerging "high end" competitor, because they are so inovative. Rikon isn't on the level of Steel City, but they seem to be on the level of Jet/Delta. IMO, Rikon's bandsaw's are much better than today's version of Jet/Delta. Also, I call Griz and Shop Fox low end largely because they seem to focus on value engineering and winning customers on cost. Doesn't necessarily mean that their quality is bad. I'm not insulting any company here, so please, no one take offense.
I haven't looked at the rest of their line, but they get rave reviews.

[Jay Brewer]

I agree 100% with Jim and Kurt, the fact is we have done it to ourselves. I am amazed the pride we take in our work and when it comes to our machinery we settle for as long as it turns on when we push the button.Even if the Delta Unisaw was still made in the US w/ US parts and labor, some would, but I doubt most would pay the premium that this saw would bring. The key is to build innovative tools that are harder to copy, which the Europeans have been very succesfull at, but are now being copied by the asian importers.

[John W Parker]

What I find interesting is how hard it is to determine where a certain machine is manufactured. I am not sure but I read somewhere that Saw Stop was actually manufactured in Taiwan. Jet equipment is also manufactured in Taiwan. It is even hard to determine where the actual companies are owned. I believe it will soon come to the point when it will be impossible to know where anything is made. I guess this is what a global economy is all about.

[Rod Sheridan]

If you want a traditional made in North America piece of equipment, purchase a General.

Made in Drummondville Quebec, still familly owned.

Regards, Rod.

[Per Swenson]

I am not so sure you can go and blame the company's

when its the consumers fault for not voting with their

wallet and demanding quality instead of price point.

Let's take hypothetical sunglasses for a minute.

I 'am a sunglass freak. A good pair of glasses run me 100 to 150 bucks

and will last me a good year and a 1/2 before they are lost or completely

scratched. A 10 dollar pair lasts a week. Which ones do you think

I spend more on in the long run?

The 10 dollar ones because I can't resist the illusion of a

bargain while selling myself

short.

America, the most powerful economic force on the planet, wears cheap

work boots. The most expensive shoes known to man.

Sorry about my 2 cents.

Per

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I'm not sure that I agree that quality has gone downhill with consumer grade woodworking equipment, nor has innovation gone away. It's just been off-shored.

When I bought my Delta cabinet saw 17 years ago, I paid big bucks and thought is was superb quality at the time. Although I believe it is still a decent saw, the new offerings in table saws these days are much better in quality, in my opinion, and have more innovations. Examples are better surface grind, better fences, and improve safety features.

As far as innovation, we're seeing tablesaws with wonderful safety features like the Sawstop's blade retraction system, and tablesaws being equipped with riving knives. I don't think one manufacturer of cabinet saws offers a crummy fence. In fact, the new fences are really thought out.

Consumers have a wonderful tool called the internet. Information moves fast these days, and lousy products are soon learned. Forums like this one have provided tremendous knowledge when I'm in the market for a new tool.

I think the problem with former US based suppliers like Delta and Powermatic is that the Asian based products have caught up in quality, and the US manufacturers were too slow to liquidate their US assets and jump onboard. That is, they were too slow to shed themselve of the US labor rate, and get rid of the increasing overhead cost of manufacturing within the US.

As Jim points out, there's a "Wall Street" effect. Near term gains are what seems to be important. Who care about 5, 10 or 20 years from now. Therefore, all the former US based companies are now whoring their names on Asian stuff probably until their reputation has been played out (i.e., 'leveraged') or they stabilize their decaying market share. It's a matter of survival in a lop-sided global market.

It's all a sad comment on our US trade policies. Remember, it's 'free trade' not 'fair trade'.

-Jeff :)

[Jim Becker]

Jeff, I need to point out that this whole phenominon has nothing to do with the "US" for the most part as the industry is pretty much a multi-national situation. That said, the way trade works certainly contributes to the "ease" that companies and manufacturers have to adjust their sourcing.

[Tim Wagner]

as for the woodcraft senario, I will be buying from them, as opposed to the internet.

I'd rather see my Local Business owner get the money.

I ordered a gift at amazon that I couldn't find localy, and asked them to put it in a plain brown box. they wrote back to say that Amazon doesn't stock any products, and that I had to contact this other copany that was selling it and shipping it. I did. they refused. I canceled the order and told them that it seemed they didn't need to make any money as they wouldn't compromize over a 2 doller box. I also informed amazon they wouldn't be getting any more orders from me as I don't like the fact that they are just sucking money from those who really do the leg work. The only thing that makes amazon money is the name Amazon.

As for the honda odysee, we have one, and will never get another. We, and at least 15 other odysee owners i have directly talked to, have nothing but problems with keeping transmissions in them. I feel they are truly a lemon.

Tim.

[Ted Miller]

I am one of those that would like to spend every tool dollar in my area or state. Yesterday I spent $227.00 at Rockler and $64.00 at Woodcraft. But the internet has really done a number on most local business. Some of the items I purchased yesterday I could save 20% from amazon with free shipping.

I deal with huge amounts of mail each day from the USPS since I work at a college. Now that we have e-mail I would say in the last 20 years the mail workload is cut in half.

I know its tough for us wood guys but things change, companies grow, thew cost of living goes up. Making a buck means more than anything than ever before, no matter what the cost to consumers in quality. Sometimes I really think the name of a product means more than the how the product works and QC...

["Michael Hinkel"]

I don't think there is any one thing/person to blame. When I was A kid Japan was the country stuff came from and everyone complained, and being a kid I could never under stand why the US was shopping at our enemies store. Since then the "Store " has moved around to who ever supplies the cheapest labor/material etc.
Companies are doing what the average consumer does, they are making a product to sell and trying to keep as much money in their pockets as possible, sounds like me.
I have tried to buy made in America most of my life, sometimes I was fooled, I thought it was American made until I read the fine print. Or it turned out to be apiece of junk. Eventually that choice was narrowed down by the World economy.
We can still have a say in the market, don't buy poorly made Items. Educate ourselves, until yesterday I didn't know General tools are available in my area, deal with peolple that will give you service, continue to use places like this forum, magazines and other woodworkers to make buying decisions.
A store in my area has a big selection of Delta, Jet and PowerMatic. I went further away to make my most recent purchase because my experience with Delta service was bad and the store was no help, it won't even stock consumables for some of the tools they sell.
By asking the manufacturer he put me in touch with a dealer that assembled and delivered a Steel City planer into my shop for an extra $50.00, it would cost me more to arrange shipping and pick up at a terminal. I voted against The others with an eye on local service and money. I have plans to upgrade more of my tools but because of Forums, guys like you, the web and reading material I hope to make better decisions than I did 20 years ago.

This is more than I usually say and its just my .05 cents worth

[Rich Konopka]

I guess the point I was trying to make is that the Big 3 US wood working machinery companies have lost a competitive edge.

Delta, PM, and Jet have moved their manufacturing overseas. They have reduced costs without really passing on the savings to consumers and apparently the margins are not there for retailers. By moving their manufacturing COMPLETELY off shore, they've reduced their quality, maintained / increased their prices has opened the door for other competitors such as Rikon, Grizzly, and Sawstop.

IMHO, This is most likely going to hurt Delta the most. They are owned by Black and Decker which also owns Dewalt and Porter & Cable. I have also notice that there is less of Dewalt and Black & Decker and more of Rigid at Home Cheapo. If I was a betting man I would bet that both Lowes and HD have to be B&D's largest customers. I would also bet they are squeezing out B&K products for their own branded (Rigid) and it is going to hurt B&D. Any I would also bet that B&D will see sales of Delta, Dewalt, P&C drop if they have not already.

When I purchased my Delta equipment 4-5 years ago. It came with an American Flag on it and it was eitheir partially manufactured and assembled in the Good Ole US of A. That stood for something compared to the Chinese & Tiwaneese stuff back then. Flash forward a couple of years. With Delta manufacturing over in China or where ever, they have essentially lowered themselves to more competition. If I was to look at new equipment I would look at Rikon and Grizzly because they are priced much better and in terms of quality have to be equal or better.

What is interesting is that Sawstop once the bastard child on this forumn (IMHO) is now becoming mainstream available at many retail locations and owned by many SMC members. Why? Their prices are not any lower? They are made overseas?? Is it a better quality product?? more innvovative? safer?

[Jeff Wright]

With the ever cheapening of products, it is even more satisfying to buy quality. Companies that come to mind are Lie-Nielsen, Micro-Fence, Veritas, Festool, Starrett, Forrest Blades, Whiteside, Infinity Tools. There are others. I no longer compromise. I am too much of a value monger.

[thomas prevost]

PRIDE is the major problem with US products. It is true of most products- cars, machinery, appliances etc. There was a time when company directors took PRIDE in the quality of their products, manufacturing facilities, and employees. In the 80's this went by the roadside. They prostituted themselves for Wall Street and increased profits. Inferior raw materials crept in, factories and machinery were not updated, and employees were treated like commodities rather than partners. With this treatment, employees lost the traditional RIDE of working for GM, Ford, Dupont, etc. Quality was traded off for volume output. Return on investment for most major companies went from the traditional 10-14% to 28-40%in the late 70's-90's.

At the same time Japan and now China are learning to manufacture quality products. Just look at the Auto industry. Now american industry is worried about survival. The shift has goine beyond the critical point of return.

We may see some finishing in the US but most factory work will be overseas. NOTE: labor is only about 5-7% of manufacture. Energy costs are in the 40-60 level. Thus, There is a lot of false bunk about labor costs overseas. the increased energy costs usually balance this out. Tax savings are the usual drivers.

Europe who once relied on the US for quality pruducts, are now taking the bull by the horns and developing thier own lines. Tools, appliances etc.

We would like to believe American made stands for quality, but it is slowly becoming less true and not because of the employees, but, wall street greed.

Well my 2cents.

[Alex Shanku]

...They have reduced costs without really passing on the savings to consumers ...

The price for a Unisaw is the same, or cheaper, today, as it was in the early 1980s

[John D. Thompson]

I just read this thread and I don't know where to start so, I'll just say that I quit buying Delta about 15 years ago.

The last thing I bought from Delta was their little 22-540 12" planer and I couldn't be happier with it. That little rascal is still going after planing God only knows how many thousands of linear feet. It was made in Taiwan. I actually own 2 of them as well as a 20" 4-knife Grizzly. My problem with this is that Delta discontinued the little guy and went with the 12 1/2'' model. My brother has one of these and he has had to replace the feed rollers twice and has had multiple problems with the knife clamps. The real kicker though is the fact that, while the 12" knives are resharpenable (think Makita wet wheel), the 12 1/2" are not. They register on pins in the cutterhead and so, are not adjustable for wear. Every time you want to change knives Delta makes a profit.

The point made about our seeking to save a buck is spot on, but one of the underlying influences (which has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread) is that the vast majority of the market does not understand craftsmanship and, therefore, does not understand quality. The members of this forum, along with other dedicated, educated, demanding consumers, are a very small minority of the group of people who buy new power tools.

Also, one must consider the aspect of 'planned obsolescence'. The manufacturers we all grew up on and learned to respect and trust have found that they have to keep on selling tools to stay in business. There are only so many table saws needed in this world so, if they don't break or wear out, there is no demand for new ones. This can only mean that the only two ways for those guys to stay in business are 1) to manufacture garbage and market it to the unsuspecting or 2) to pull their horns WAY in and make a limited number of high quality tools for the educated and discerning consumer (us). Their corporate structure and Wall Street dictate choosing option 1.

This is why, whenever I upgrade, I hold on until I can find vintage iron.
Those older pieces are permanent and, as such, will never lose their resale value. With the addition of the occasional bearing or motor they will go until so much material has passed over the table that it has worn out of true and then there's usually so much 'meat' on their bones that you could have the thing re-surfaced and go ANOTHER 80 years!

Oh well.

On a side note, I was under the impression that, while Jet had closed the Powermatic plant temporarily, that they were going to re-open for manufacturing. Is that not true?

JT

[Pete Brown]

We may see some finishing in the US but most factory work will be overseas. NOTE: labor is only about 5-7% of manufacture. Energy costs are in the 40-60 level. Thus, There is a lot of false bunk about labor costs overseas. the increased energy costs usually balance this out. Tax savings are the usual drivers.

This doesn't jive with everything I've read in the past, and with thinking through how tools are assembled.

Do you have a cite for this point?

Thanks.

Pete

[Rich Konopka]

The price for a Unisaw is the same, or cheaper, today, as it was in the early 1980s
I dunno about 1980's but when I was looking at them 3-4 years ago they could be had for $1400- $1600. They are now 2100 give or take. They switched over to the x5 name and had the 5 year warranty for the extra bucks.

[John Gornall]

American auto industry?

We just got a new shop truck - GMC Sierra - under the hood most items have a "Made in Brazil" sticker on them and the VIN number starts with a 3 which means it was assembled in Mexico.

[John Bailey]

This doesn't jive with everything I've read in the past, and with thinking through how tools are assembled.

Do you have a cite for this point?

Thanks.

Pete

Hate to bring this up, as it might start to politicize the thread, but if you get a copy of the "FairTax Book" it will explain a lot of why "off shoring" has happened.

John

[James Carmichael]

It's economic specialization, each entity does what it does best, making for better economic efficiency. Technology, in the form of transportation and communications, have made this possible wherever govts do not impose artificial obstacles in the form of tariffs, import quotas, etc.

Now, short rant: America has a trade deficit and a national debt measured in the trillions. I am a free-market kinda guy, but it is time to reintroduce some tariffs to reduce both the trade deficit and national debt. Yes, this will mean we pay more for stuff, but we simply can not keep on as the consumer nation.

[Alfred Clem]

John Carmichael: why can't America continue as "the consumer nation?" As long as our trading partners continue to accept pieces of paper in exchange for manufactured goods, why not? And as long as those pieces of paper (dollars, IOUs, government bonds, etc.) continue to drop in value, why not? Ahh, but some day our trading partners will wise up and either stop taking those shrinking pieces of paper or accepting fewer of them, the dance goes on. And we stop getting their goods, and their factories close, and they have huge unemployment as a result. It's a shell game, John -- we get the goods and they get the jobs. Keeps their seething millions occupied, docile, and off the streets.

But, like a game of musical chairs, the music ends eventually. We saw just a hint of that last week, when the Chinese stock market had a hiccup. May you live in interesting times.

[Rob Will]

I went to Sears yesterday with the sole purpose of looking for American made power tools. I don't care about cost......just looking for the right features.......and USA made.

Every single power tool at Sears either says made in "China" or "Tiawan".

Another thing that has not been mentioned here is that many US companies have a rich history of retirees with insurance and persion plans. Toyota brags about thier US facilities but I wonder how thier retiree benefits list compares to a company like Ford's?

Rob

[Alfred Clem]

Rob: Companies such as Ford, General Motors, and Chrysler have an older labor force and many, many retirees drawing benefits they earned while employed. Toyota has a younger labor force in its American plants and does not have nearly as many retirees -- yet. In time, this will change. As a retiree of a large American company, I have seen my retirement benefits sliced and diced over the past two decades. This cost-cutting, in my experience, did not extend to upper levels of management.

[Rod Sheridan]

One of these days, China will call in all the outstanding debt it holds for the US. It won't be pretty from an economic perspective.

I think that we are just hoping that the "musical chairs" process of importing more and more inexpensive goods will end after our lifetime.

I think that it is short sighted to continue to want to pay less and less for consumables, and pay less to people who work to make or distribute those goods.

Yes it's nice to save 10 cents on a can of tuna, however if your next door neighbour is unemployed because of it, you are in trouble.

Why would you be in trouble? Simple, your neighbour either cannot contribute to society through productivity or taxes, or simply can only find a subsistence level job. They cannot send their kids to university, and this accellerates the downward spiral of society.

In North America, we are not the highest taxed, the most productive, or the best educated in the world. Those three things all tie together to make a country the best in the world. We could be the best educated, most productive, highest taxed group, however that requires long term planning and committment, not a "me first" consumer philosophy.


Regards, Rod.

[James Carmichael]

You threw me there, Alfred. John is my brother:-)

I suppose it will all level-out, eventually, but I'm convinced the U.S. is headed for some tough times.

[James Carmichael]

In North America, we are not the highest taxed, the most productive, or the best educated in the world. Those three things all tie together to make a country the best in the world.

Um, economically, yes, we are THE most productive nation in the world. Our economy is more service and information-oriented. We don't produce the hard, tangible goods like China and Mexico, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. That part of the equation is win/win, we get less-expensive goods, they get desperately-needed jobs. The problem is, we have been running trade-deficits for many years and have an enormous national debt. The latter issue can be partly resolved by government staying within a budget (don't want to get into a political debate), but both problems ultimately require the U.S. as a whole to quite consuming more than we produce.

I'm a bit confused as to how paying the highest tax rates makes a nation the best.

[Bryan Read]

... Toyota brags about thier US facilities but I wonder how thier retiree benefits list compares to a company like Ford's?

Rob


Here's an article pretty much dealing with Toyota and that subject. Very insightful reading...

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/111/open_no-satisfaction.html

[Wilbur Pan]

The country of origin really has little to do with the quality of the machine being produced. It all has to do with how much you are willing to pay for that quality.

My brother deals with factories in China and other Asian countries a lot as part of his job, so we talk about this every so often. The ironic thing about moving operations to China for manufacturing is that Chinese factories can turn out tools, power or otherwise, every bit as well built and precise as when they were made in the U.S. in "the good old days". You just have to be willing to pay extra for the improved components, the refinements in the manufacturing process and the quality control measures needed.

And guess what -- once you factor in those costs, the Chinese-made tools will pretty much cost just as much as if they were made in the U.S.

In other words, you could get a copy of a made-in-the-US Northfield 8" jointer coming from the same factory in China that makes the 8" Grizzly jointer, with the same level of quality, fit, and finish as Northfield has. And it will cost you about $9000, same as it costs to get one from Northfield directly.

[Nate Rogers]

I think this is such a interesting thread, it really sums up the single biggest problem our country faces. Free trade is good in the short run, but over the long haul this will bite us in the behind. If tomorrow all consumers demanded US made goods, within months factories would be popping up all over the country. But as long as we say that price is the most important factor in buying goods, this will continue to drag us down. I work for a manufacturing facility, and we are making money hand over fist...However that is not good enough for the stock holders, we need to make more and more and more and more. So business can survive in the US and thrive, we as consumers and investors have to put more value on the big picture, not just every single cent.

[Greg Cole]

"If you want a traditional made in North America piece of equipment, purchase a General.

Made in Drummondville Quebec, still familly owned.

Regards, Rod."


Not sure about that one, as my General 50-185TS was in waxy brown cardboard and said made in Taiwan all over it........
Final assembly in Drummondville no doubt.. but I am sure the cast iron was done in Taiwan as well as the machining.

[John Gornall]

Greg,

Your saw is imported by "General International" which are made for General across the water.

If you want North American made, including the Castings, you will have to buy a "General"

Go to their website, www.general.ca (http://www.general.ca) and the Canadian made equipment has a big red Canadian Flag on it and there is a red Maple Leaf beside the listing.

Here's a nice 16 inch piece of Canadian made iron: http://www.general.ca/pagemach/machines/0general/880a.html

[Jerry Olexa]

First, we are in a global economy (witness the stock market activity the past few days). Secondly, we are ,in general, a "price sensitive" consumer group (Walmart-largest retailer in the world strictly driven by price). Basically, price rules. So to deliver price, compromise in quality is made by mfrs and a profitable but attractive price point is reached. Another way to attain this is a different source of manufacture (very few companies manufacture their tools in US) which is usually cheaper. We are our own worse enemy and quality generally suffers. As Jim said, I'm afraid this trend is here to stay but at least, we have choices and the intelligence/discernment to choose wisely. Just MHO...

[Mark Pruitt]

Interesting discussion.

The only thing I'll add is anecdotal. When my new PM lathe recently came, I received that silly little "85th Anniversary 18 Wheeler" model truck with it.:rolleyes: What's interesting is not the truck itself but the "History of Powermatic" story printed on the back of the box. That "history" makes absolutely no mention whatsoever of the company's decision to move production overseas a few years ago. Further, the packaging for the lathe and accessories says "Made in Taiwan to Powermatic Specifications" (or "...Standards"--can't remember). Clearly, PM senses the uneasiness felt by their customers and is working to alleviate its effects. Are they succeeding? Time will tell.

[Rich Konopka]

First, we are in a global economy (witness the stock market activity the past few days). Secondly, we are ,in general, a "price sensitive" consumer group (Walmart-largest retailer in the world strictly driven by price). Basically, price rules. So to deliver price, compromise in quality is made by mfrs and a profitable but attractive price point is reached. Another way to attain this is a different source of manufacture (very few companies manufacture their tools in US) which is usually cheaper. We are our own worse enemy and quality generally suffers. As Jim said, I'm afraid this trend is here to stay but at least, we have choices and the intelligence/discernment to choose wisely. Just MHO...
Yes, maybe it is here to stay. But, there is only so much money to be made using the "Walmart Model". They have slowed down and are now refocusing their efforts on attracting a different consumer. Check this interesting article out about Walmarts marketing research (http://consumerist.com/consumer/walmart/leaks-walmart-powerpoint-on-3-customer-plan-241939.php). What time of customer are you?

If we compare the automakers where the Americans Industry is struggling and the Japaneese automakers are kicking butt. Why? Their prices are typcially lower than the Japaneese autos? One exception to this is Cadillac whose sales are up and ranks higher in quality.

If you look at Tools. Why would someone pay $4000 for a Sawstop if Price Rules? Why is Festool commanding $400 for a Circ Saw?

It is really interesting how the "American Woodworking Tool" companies are not adapting by offering "High End" quality, higher margin, and innovative tools like Sawstop or Festool.

My 2 cents.

[James Carmichael]

Great observations there, Rich.

If my years with a Fortune 500 Company back in the 80s are any indication, it is that American tool companies, along with the big auto makers, are either clueless, or are so big they are logistically bound to an obsolete business model and can't implement changes fast enough to compete (dinosaurs).

OK, removing the kid gloves, I worked for Xerox and was young and brash and lucky I didn't get fired and land in jail when an Executive officer arrived for a communications meeting two weeks after appearing on "Meet the Press" and bemoaning that U.S. tech companies couldn't compete because they could hire the caliber of technically-skilled workers available overseas. This is from the company that invented Ethernet, the PC, the mouse, the Graphical User Interface, and more or less GAVE it all away, because they were still wed to a concept of proprietary technology (like the photocopier). The concept of customers having choices and their having to compete was totally foreign. I'm sure there's old brass at Delta who are the same way, scratching their heads at their lagging sales and say "but we invented the Unisaw".

[Luis Oliveira]

With all the respect to everyone, I don't think we should blame ourselves, I certainly don't blame myself. The truth is probably right in the middle "where it always is". When companies used to have such incredible margins, you didn't see any company saying lets pass some savings to our customers, no they kept on charging as high as possible.
Even today, you see it, you see parts being made in brazil, assemble in Mexico and being sold for say 40K dollars here in the US, that same car in Mexico is close to 80K dollars, but the most interesting part is that you hear VP's taking private flights every week because they made a deal, they just don't want to live in say Detroit like every normal worker, no they want to live in Florida and the company needs to eat the cost of travel from Detroit to Florida ... sorry the customer needs to eat the cost.
Now take Delta for example (not to pick on Delta per say, I could have use woodcraft, or even Festool), they use the same grade steal, and for most purposes the same components, so why that grizzly is cheaper. I think because Delta no longer cares for its customers and for the longest time the customer eat their propaganda. Now enter the internet, now anyone can compare products side by side, choose from an array of products for different vendors. No longer the Deltas of the world can just put a product and expect everyone to bend over and take it.
Sorry if I am rumbling but I look around my house and I know how much I have worked to get the little I have, and I for one will never be sorry of the deltas of the world, and their so call management team that just decided to build their big fortunes and now are in big trouble to balance gains and greed.
But I know how they balance it, they lay-off a bunch of workers and vp's get bonuses.
I think everyone of us should expect better products, safer products and reasonable prices.

The new mantra should be win a little, give a little.
I am convinced that once you do that customers will comeback.
Pricing everyone out of a hobby is no way to create business.

So never feel like a victim, as you probably been one all your life, expect the best because others expect the best from you too.

Hence why we have forums like this to share ideas, accomplishments an to console our forum friends when something goes wrong with their precious projects.

Last I would like to personally thank and say I admire people in this forum, that obviously have woodworking as a professional trade however they feel no treat for anyone and instead go our of they way to share their projects and wisdom.

Keep them coming!

[Clint Gauthier]

Price rules, but at what cost? I think the cost is our children's future. An economy cannot sustain itself for long if we don't add value by physical labor or intellectual content. Simply reselling cheap goods produced by someone else does not add value. I find it very hard to understand why we expect others to work for nothing by demanding very inexpensive products, but at the same time we demand a premium for our own work.

Just a few short years ago, it was said that the US should not worry about the "low" end jobs because they will be replaced by "higher" end white collar jobs. But we know this has not occurred. Many engineering and computer programming jobs have also gone overseas, and we should not expect all of our displaced workers to go back to school for a white collar job. We need a well rounded workforce with people having diverse skills and training, if we want a balanced, secure economy for ourselves and, more importantly, our children.

[larry bradley]

taiwan is a democracy. china is a dictatorship trying to squash taiwan. i'd rather buy USA or Europe - but taiwan is not china!:)

[Gary Keedwell]

taiwan is a democracy. china is a dictatorship trying to squash taiwan. i'd rather buy USA or Europe - but taiwan is not china!:)
Let me get this straight.......you have brought this thread from a 8 month old grave to tell us that Taiwan is a democracy?:confused:
Gary

[Jim Kenney]

Those who bemoan the "decline of American Manufacturing" would do well to peruse this website for awhile.

http://www.nam.org/s_nam/index.asp

The fact is that U.S. manufacturing output is at an all-time high. What has been declining is the number of people employed in manufacturing and the percentage of U.S. GDP represented by manufacturing output. What has happened to American manufacturing over the years is pretty straightforward: improved productivity has allowed us to do more with less. The improved productivity has allowed people to spend less time making things and more time producing services for one-another and on great hobbies like woodworking:cool: .

The lack of U.S. based woodworking machinery makers is due to the fact that, relative to other sectors of manufacturing, making woodworking machinery is not a very high value added manufacturing process, in contrast to something like building jets or railroad locomotives. In order for manufacturers to pay wages that people in a wealthy country like the U.S. expect, they have to concentrate on higher-value added manufacturing. Hence, walk around a Wal*Mart and most of the stuff you see is made elsewhere. Believe it or not, even China is losing manufacturing jobs. Why? The same reason we are, productivity. I don't hear anyone talking about the loss of manufacturing jobs in China

Believe me, I too sometimes walk around stores and wonder if anything is "Made in America" anymore, but the facts just dont support the argument.

[Bill Bryant]

I started a thread a few days ago that got pulled immediately with a PM to me stating, "Threads of a political nature are not allowed at SMC as per the Terms Of Service."

This thread explores much the same territory and is now four pages long.

I'm confused.

[Brian Kent]

I appreciate the thoughtfulness and intelligence of this thread.

One of the benefits I receive from Sawmill Creek is the wisdom of long-term value. I love a bargain and I love bragging about it. But a bargain is not what's cheap, it's what holds the best value for the buck.

I have enjoyed buying and using old tools that are an excellent value and show me some craftsmanship from another age. I also enjoy saving up for a new excellent tool from some person or company that really makes a lasting product. I wish the people at Stanley Tools would logon to Sawmill Creek and see how much their older, higher quality tools are respected. If they went back to making a line of the best tools out there, they would have a lot of new buyers.

I do like it when Lie-Nielsen or Blue Spruce makes top of the line stuff in the United States.

I also don't hold a grudge when an outstanding Japanese craftsman hand-forges a chisel or when good craftsmanship around the world is exhibited and respected. I want everybody to make a decent living.

I also love it when a lot of Hondas get made in Marysville, Ohio.

I'll keep voting for value with a little extra encouragement for the companies and individuals that raise the bar right here at home.

[Denny Rice]

I try very hard to buy "made in USA" its getting very, very hard. I will not shop at Walmart. Have not stepped into that store in over 5 yrs. Its even getting hard to find a #2 pencil made in America.:)

[Rod Sheridan]

I have to admit, that it is hard to justify spending more money to purchase a made in North America product, than an imported product.

I was faced with this dilema when I purchased my cabinet saw, either purchase the local General saw, or the General International saw.

I decided to purchase the General, and help keep my neighbours employed.

The made in North America product may be better, equal to, or inferior in quality to the imported product, so this must be evaluated in each case.

We have seen many innovations in North American equipment, and an equal or greater number in imported equipment.

Now, if we had the option of purchasing a North American made format saw with the SawStop safety system, I'd join many of you in the purchase lineup.

I'd rather we, as consumers, spent our money willingly on NA products, as opposed to having tarrifs or duties applied to offshore equipment. I don't like the idea of punishing foreign manufacturers for efficiency or innovation.

That said, I realize that some manufacturers are able to offer efficiencies through labour or material costs, as well as poor environmental policies.

Perhaps we should only levy duties based upon poor environmental and human conditions. As nice as that would be, it would require more smarts than I have, to implement. Of course it could also be embarassing if NA manufacturers were assesed levies for poor environmental or human conditions. (Poor energy efficiency, poor life cycle costs, lack of medical care etc.)

regards, Rod.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I think you are right.

Things were different back in the day when the average home hobbyist couldn't afford things like dedicated shops or tools like big band saws, shapers, mortisers, cabinet saws etc., and their idea of a TS was little craftsman table saw or upside down circular saws in plywood.


Back then the commercial and industrial users had all the big tools and they bought based on quality first.

Now things are different. The manufacturers are trying to sell to the unwashed masses. Which of course means that they'll kill to same a nickel at manufacturing.

The consumer has never been known for discernment.

Look at the best selling beers and whiskeys. When was the last time you heard any one complain about the gluey mouth feel of Bud or most soft drinks since they went to Corn Syrup? I can't drink the stuff. It's like drinking sugary PVA glue.

You can get a new Chevy for $19,000.00 ~!! Clearly they are marketing to an undiscerning demographic.

[Bob Childress]

Let me get this straight.......you have brought this thread from a 8 month old grave to tell us that Taiwan is a democracy?:confused:
Gary

Ahhh, but the poster lives in Charlottesville, VA. I am a UVA alum myself, so I know that everything in Charlottesville is always about politics. And Volvos. :p :D

[Paul Johnstone]

I could see this coming back in the 80's when imports were starting to arrive.
There'd be posts on the woodworking newsgroup such as "Well, this imported joiner probably
isn't as good as the made in USA Delta one, but since it's $50 cheaper, and probably good
enough for me, I'll buy it".
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that thinking, but it led the companies to do
exactly what we told them to do.. we'd rather save $50 and get a slightly inferior tool.

As far as the companies like Delta customer service goes. It used to be that they'd send you
a replacement part, no questions asked, for free if you called. However, word got out on the
internet, and I read a lot of posts by scammers that pulled a old broken drill press out of
the trash, and then called Delta, claiming they bought a brand new drill press, and it's broken,
they need an entire new top assembly.. Stuff like that. So, sadly, Delta had to tighten up on
its generousity due to theives lying to them.

[Howard Acheson]

>> First, the brands we so closely identify as being "american" aren't. Jet, Powermatic, Delta,

Jet has never been "American". It is a manufacturer of Taiwanese equipment that was bought by a Swiss company (WMH Tool Group). WMH then bought Powermatic.

Also, Delta is pretty much gone. Delta combined with Porter Cable and both were bought by Black & Decker. Milwaukee is owned by TTI a Singapore conglomerate who's primary manufacturing arm is Ryobi. Roybi manufactures many Craftsman stationary and portable power tools as well as the Ridgid lines of power tools owned by Emerson Electric and sold by Home Depot.

It gets complicated but that is what the global economy is all about.

[Drew Armstrong]

They have to sell to the unwashed masses (us) because most furniture making has moved overseas and it is so new to those factories that specking machinery to last 10 years with full time use is more than enough... economics are such that you cannot really plan on being in business using the same tools for 30 to 90 years like you could in 1930 when you were buying oliver jointers and equipment. If I buy a cabinet saw that will work for a cabinet shop for 10 years... for me it may not be the same robust quality that was available in 1930... however... I can afford my own and it will last my lifetime.

Drew

[Matt Lentzner]

The problem with all these "America is going down the tubes" theories is that the proof is not in the pudding. Off-shoring has been going gangbusters now for 30 plus years. In spite of this, America is richer and more powerful than ever. Unemployment is at histrically low levels. Challengers such as Japan (remember when they were going to take over the world?) have surged then fallen back.

America does still lead in innovative new industries like software and biotech. That's where the money is and that's where the pride should be. Mature industries like tool-making should be off-shored, the workers moved to more dynamic industries with higher salaries. The fact that America is so successful at this is why we are so rich.

Once upon a time Delta was an innovative company. They pretty much invented to 14" consumer bandsaw and I'm sure they made a mint. They still sell that same bandsaw 30 years later. They just don't innovate anymore. Let's face it. When the Japanese started in the American auto market, US made cars were horrible. We'd still be driving those clunkers if foreign cars hadn't changed the game.

I do think that quality is on the upswing now. There was a time when just having a tablesaw was a luxury. Now consumers are expecting something like SawStop, innovative and high quality, and they can afford to pay top dollar for it. If Grizzly can made a quality product for less money and superlative customer service, you'd be foolish not to buy it. Buying American for it's own sake is just a form of corporate welfare. They need to earn your business - otherwise you will be taken for granted. You, as a consumer, owe it to the economy to make the best decision for yourself. Companies that can't hack it should go out of business.

I do get the nostalgia for "American Made" when that meant something. It's still out there, just not in the hobbyist woodshop.

Matt

[Howard Acheson]

The problem with all these "America is going down the tubes" theories is that the proof is not in the pudding. Off-shoring has been going gangbusters now for 30 plus years. In spite of this, America is richer and more powerful than ever. Unemployment is at histrically low levels. Challengers such as Japan (remember when they were going to take over the world?) have surged then fallen back.

America does still lead in innovative new industries like software and biotech. That's where the money is and that's where the pride should be. Mature industries like tool-making should be off-shored, the workers moved to more dynamic industries with higher salaries. The fact that America is so successful at this is why we are so rich.

Once upon a time Delta was an innovative company. They pretty much invented to 14" consumer bandsaw and I'm sure they made a mint. They still sell that same bandsaw 30 years later. They just don't innovate anymore. Let's face it. When the Japanese started in the American auto market, US made cars were horrible. We'd still be driving those clunkers if foreign cars hadn't changed the game.

I do think that quality is on the upswing now. There was a time when just having a tablesaw was a luxury. Now consumers are expecting something like SawStop, innovative and high quality, and they can afford to pay top dollar for it. If Grizzly can made a quality product for less money and superlative customer service, you'd be foolish not to buy it. Buying American for it's own sake is just a form of corporate welfare. They need to earn your business - otherwise you will be taken for granted. You, as a consumer, owe it to the economy to make the best decision for yourself. Companies that can't hack it should go out of business.

I do get the nostalgia for "American Made" when that meant something. It's still out there, just not in the hobbyist woodshop.

Matt

Matt, you are absolutely correct. Much of the issue is political in nature, not economic in nature.

[Paul Johnstone]

The problem with all these "America is going down the tubes" theories is that the proof is not in the pudding. Off-shoring has been going gangbusters now for 30 plus years. In spite of this, America is richer and more powerful than ever.

Not really. The dollar is quite weak. Stuff is pretty cheap because China artificially links their currency to the dollar to keep selling us stuff.
If they ever stop doing that, tools (and a lot of other stuff) is going to get expensive in a hurry.

Also, software and biomedical stuff is getting offshored too at a fast rate.

While the elite rich people have gotten richer, the median income of Americans has fallen when adjusted for inflation. People are paying a much greater percentage of their incomes for necessities like food, medicine, etc.

Maybe you are fortunate and your career hasn't been impacted negatively by offshoring yet, but many people have. Just saying that America is better off than it ever was does not make it so.

[Gary Keedwell]

Yea, wait until the babyboomers retire.....then you will see the proverbial-----hit the fan:cool:
Gary

[Todd Jensen]

Good grief Geezers....:D One thing to keep in mind is that because of increased competition and overseas production, the average woodworker has access to decent machines that they never would have otherwise. They might not be the best machines, and not AMERICAN MADE, but they will oftentimes do the task quite well with minimal modifications. Meanwhile for those discerning folks with deep pockets, deadly accurate and solid machines are available for purchase - though foreign producers are giving anything coming out of America a run for their money - Germany and Italy for instance.
I just know my 2006 Duramax would not be as nice of a truck as it is without overseas competition. The 2007 Yamaha Grizzly wouldn't be sitting in the garage. I wouldn't have a microwave, a nice computer, a good TV, etc.. The whole 'good ol' days' argument just doesn't fly with me; I think we're sitting in about the best part of history right now. Unlimited access to information(i.e. how I'm able to post this blasphemy on the web), easy cheap access to time-saving tools, and for those discerning souls, some of the most refined machines ever made. Room for improvement? Sure. But this site alone is an indication that a Renaissance is afoot, driven by tons of people who insist on quality and take pride in providing it.
Just my 2 pennies, brought to you across cabling made in Taiwan via a computer made in China.:D God Bless America!

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z66/grizzified/lavcampingcompressed.jpg

[Matt Lentzner]

1. The weak dollar is a relatively new thing. Over the last 30 years it has been strong, probably too strong. The new weaker dollar is probably a "good thing" and makes US business more competitive is the global economy.

2. With bio and med being offshored it is a relative. The fact that it is happening is not automatically a bad thing. If it gets offshored and the US continues to have a low unemployment rate and high per captia income - who cares?

3. I agree that there is a looming crisis in the middle class. This must be addressed with better education in primary and secondary schools. If not, this will come back to haunt us. Fighting against globalization is not the way to go. That just makes things worse. We have to embrace it and become more competitive. Otherwise it ends up like the USSR. They had their own auto industry that evaporated on contact with global competition.

4. Absolutely, anytime the game changes (and it's changing faster and faster) there are winners and losers. It takes a bit of political courage to go ahead and rock the boat for the overall benefit when some people lose out. I certainly think that those winners have an obligation to help the losers to get with the new program and contribute.

5. You saying I'm wrong doesn't make it so, either. Just about any economic measure you could name is up over the last 30 years. That's a fact - not my opinion.

Regards,

Matt

[Matt Lentzner]

Every industrialized nation is facing this in one way or another. Of course it will impact everyone, but not the US in particular. The US, being the richest country, is probably in the best position to weather this compared to other countries. Immigration is one of those advantages.

Matt

[andy brown]

Hi All,
It's not really fair to blame the consumer for wanting a cheap deal. The companies move the goalposts all the time and people get wary of that kind of behaviour; Elu were a great Swiss company making Routers and Planers and maybe other stuff as well, then B+D bought the company and relocated all the stuff to Italy. So I have a Swiss Router and an Italian one. I thought I was buying Elu with the second one and I've never bought another B+D tool.

God knows which part of China they're all made in now, the factories pumping out toxic fumes while the shareholders rub their hands.

I mustn't get started on this line of thought.



Andy.

[Jason Beam]

the factories pumping out toxic fumes while the shareholders rub their hands.

You mean like they did (and still do) here in america? :rolleyes:

It's evolutionary based on the factors of the market. We as consumers do make the market what it is. It's a pretty cynical view if you claim that the companies are reaking of greed and that we lowly consumers are innocent in the ordeal. It happens on both sides.

In order to get us to buy their crap, companies have to appeal to us innocent consumers' hearts somehow. Currently the almighty dollar is where consumers' hearts lie. Don't believe me? Then why is Wal Mart so successful? You think the corporate big wigs are to blame? What would you do if you were in their shoes?