SawStop Any Regrets ???

[Bob Michaels]

I'm placing the order tomorrow morning for a 5 horse SS to replace my 2 year old PM66. Love the 66 but the safety issues are very compelling. I've seen all the raves above the SS, are there any regrets. Thanks.

[Mike Heidrick]

Not in the least!!

Only thoughts I have had have been about the Incra LS TS fence but the T-glide is SOOO smooth I cannot imagine not using it now.

That PM2000 is soo nice and that Euro 315 MM slider is awesome but I have found my saw for the future.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/BloomingtonMike/saw2.jpg

[Roy Wall]

None here Bob.......Pay up and Cry once...:eek: :cool:

I've had the SS for about 2 years and happy with my 3 hp version...

[John Russell]

I have the 5hp SS and no regrets.

[Mark Singer]

Its great!

[Martin Shupe]

I was in the Ft. Worth Woodcraft today, and I asked how the Sawstops were selling. Great, they said, they just sold 20 to the Arlington School District!:eek:

Some high school kids are going to be very spoiled.

[will sands]

I have been involved with setting up SawStop saws in two different locations and I am impressed with the fit, finish and overall quality of the saw. This is a well designed and well built table saw. Also, I had the need to talk with a SawStop technician and called the factory. No recordings and I didn't need to press 1 for English. Good product and good people.

No association with SawStop
Bill Sands

[Ken Milhinch]

If I understand it correctly, (not available here, so never seen one) the Sawstop saw won't cut your finger off if you are stupid enough to put your hand in the path of the blade, but is that the only difference between it and other saws on the market ?

[Per Swenson]

Hi Bob,

Not one from day one.

We punish ours commercially.

It is also one of the first ones.

Customer service for anything is world class,

You can even call em up to chat.

Per

[Per Swenson]

No Ken,

The sawstop is the finest made North American style

cabinet saw available under 10 thousand dollars.

Per

[Stan Welborn]

If I understand it correctly, (not available here, so never seen one) the Sawstop saw won't cut your finger off if you are stupid enough to put your hand in the path of the blade, but is that the only difference between it and other saws on the market ?

I'd also like to hear of other differences between this saw and say, the PM2000. I'm finding it hard to justify half again as much money for the brake feature. Guess if you ever need it it'll be worth many times that much, but odds are you wont.

Are there other features/issues with the saw that make it better equipment than the 2000?

[will sands]

Ken, here is one link to learn about the saw and watch the "wienner" demo video.

http://www.sawstop.com/

Bill

[jim gossage]

i just watched the weiner demo. man, is that impressive!

[Ken Milhinch]

Ken, here is one link to learn about the saw and watch the "wienner" demo video.

http://www.sawstop.com/

Bill

Bill,


I have watched the "features" video and saw nothing that is not available on the Powermatic for example. I also got the impression that the riving knife and blade guard is an either/or situation. You can't use both at once ?
I have seen the demo before, but I repeat the question. What else about this saw makes it better than the others ?

[David Cramer]

A friend of mine got one about 4 months ago and raves about it constantly. He said it annoyed him a little at first to have to wait for the diagnostic check that it does when you turn it on, but now he says it's no big deal. Even though I always wear hearing protection, I did notice that it was alot quieter than my Unisaw. I don't know why or how, but it was definitely quieter (still use hearing protection). Like I said, he raves about it constantly and has yet to have the safety feature kick in, but if he makes a mistake.....................he will be covered.

Dave

[Andy Haney]

"What else about this saw makes it better than the others ?"

Ken,

While I don't own one YET, I believe it is a very fine piece of equipment...as a tablesaw. I witnessed the demo in person about a week ago.

What makes SAWSTOP better for me is that I have put my hand into a running saw blade, with much more fortunate results than what could have been. For that reason, I believe the SAFETY features alone make the SAWSTOP worth the difference in price.

Rhetorically, what is each one of your fingers worth?

Andy

[Per Swenson]

Ken,

Someone will jump in here with a more specific and technical version.

But in order to support the safety mechanism this machine is overbuilt.

The controls are effortless and smooth. Raising the blade is like dialing

in a radio station on a Denon tuner.

My machine came out of the box with no discernible arbor run out.

Table perfectly square to the blade. No darn setup or fiddling.

Fit and finish, no holes barred machining puts this saw in a class

worthy of its price tag, with out the Sawstop technology.

Far as I am concerned that is just a bonus.

Per

[Mike Heidrick]

All adjustments for alignment are simple screws - no more mallet adjustments for the tables.

The Bies-like T Glide SS fence is MUCH smoother than any actual Bies fence I have ever used.

The knife and guard move straight up and down - not an an arc that can affect the ability of the riving knife.

Ken, The Guard does have a splitter built into it. Being that it is a guard with plastic over the top your question about the knife working with the guard did not make sense to me. They have two different pieces so it is easier to change them out as there is a quick release - no need to reset the guard postion eachtime. Move a lever and install the knife. Then move the same lever, take out the knife, and install the splitter/guard assembly. Gurad is for through cuts and knife is for non through cuts.

The trunnions on the Sawstop are MUCH larger than the PM2000 as are the bearings, arbor, arbor nut, and motor mount assembly. Those are inherint benefits to owning a saw that must stop the blade in 5ms.

The table and wings are larger than the PM2000 as is the thickness of steel in the cabinet body.

The blade raising and lowering are gas assisted so it is very easy to raise and lower the blade.

Also the paddle to stop and start the blade (after self check) is designed to be a knee paddle as well.

Also there is absolutely no play in the miter slots and with the factory mitergauge and with my JDS AccuMiter.

A few disadvantages:
No built in casters like on the PM2000
Saw cannot use a 6" dado stack
Saw cannot use a moulder head
Must change out the brake assembly when installing an 8" dado stack
Must be concious of how dry your wood is
Must be concious of metal in the wood
(You have to be consious of these on a PM2000 as well but of you trip them on a SS It is about $170 out of pocket).
$1700 more money or more.

[Bob Michaels]

Thanks for the input Mark, Per, and everyone. Just placed the order and will have it in a couple of days.

[Lars Thomas]

Congrats on the new Saw. It's on my short list. Lars

[Joe Jensen]

Bill,


I have watched the "features" video and saw nothing that is not available on the Powermatic for example. I also got the impression that the riving knife and blade guard is an either/or situation. You can't use both at once ?
I have seen the demo before, but I repeat the question. What else about this saw makes it better than the others ?

The blade guard has a riving knife built in. So, riving knife alone, or blade gaurd with built in riving knife.

[Joe Jensen]

Ken,

Someone will jump in here with a more specific and technical version.

But in order to support the safety mechanism this machine is overbuilt.

The controls are effortless and smooth. Raising the blade is like dialing

in a radio station on a Denon tuner.

My machine came out of the box with no discernible arbor run out.

Table perfectly square to the blade. No darn setup or fiddling.

Fit and finish, no holes barred machining puts this saw in a class

worthy of its price tag, with out the Sawstop technology.

Far as I am concerned that is just a bonus.

Per

I'm too late for the original poster, but you've put it perfectly. I'm super picky, and with my dial indicator I found nothing that needed adjustment...joe

[Glen Blanchard]

The blade guard has a riving knife built in. So, riving knife alone, or blade gaurd with built in riving knife.

Actually, unless I am wrong, the riving knife cannot be used with the blade gaurd. The blade gaurd has a splitter - but not a riving knife.

To answer the original question, I LOVE the saw and have not one regret.

[Dan Lee]

Congrats Bob. I've had my SS for about a month. Previous saw was also a 3 yr old PM66 and I have no regrets.
Agree with Per and Mike also the DC is far better

[Roy Wall]

Thanks for the input Mark, Per, and everyone. Just placed the order and will have it in a couple of days.

Bob - If you wish to improve on the blade DC, I have a thread on my solution. Click on my name in the main SMC page - then click on "threads started by me" - you should find it somewhere..

Congrats...

[Richard Butler]

I'd also like to hear of other differences between this saw and say, the PM2000. I'm finding it hard to justify half again as much money for the brake feature. Guess if you ever need it it'll be worth many times that much, but odds are you wont.

Are there other features/issues with the saw that make it better equipment than the 2000?

Stan,

Here are some interesting statistics.

Of all the injuries one can get from a saw that require a hospital visit, 9% are amputations.

The rate of hospitalization was five percent [for saw injuries] compared to the average rate of four percent associated with all consumer products reported through the NEISS system.

Put another way, overall you have a 1% higher risk of getting hurt on a table saw. Of that 1%, 9% involve amputations. Keep in mind that this does not take into account the vast majority of accidents which do not require a hospital visit.

http://www.cpsc.gov/library/foia/foia03/os/powersaw.pdf

[Dan Lee]

One thing I learned about my SS this weekend was:
I couldn't get the knife adjutsted low enough for no thru cuts. Scratched my head and started measuring blade diameters as best I could.
2 of my WWIIs have had 3-4 sharpenings and the diameters were about 9 13/16".
Another brand new WWII was a between 9 7/8 and 9 15/16" with this one I could adjust the knife correctly

[David Wambolt]

I have a 5hp Sawstop sitting in the crate with the 52" rails and extension. The crate is very nice looking!!

I hope to have it running in the next three weeks.

[Bob Wingard]

One additional note that I haven't seen mentioned .. .. .. no matter what angle you tilt the blade to, the fence stays dead-accurate. On most saws (not all - MOST), the minute you tilt the blade for a bevel-rip, you can kiss the accuracy of the fence goodbye.

[Glen Blanchard]

One thing I learned about my SS this weekend was:
I couldn't get the knife adjutsted low enough for no thru cuts.

Dan,

I, too, am needing to lower my knife a bit. I am having a heck of a time getting the allen wrench in the screw closest to the outfeed side of the saw, and have very little room to turn it once I have have the wrench seated in the head of the screw. I have the riving knife out and the blade has been lowered all the way down. Did you have any such difficulty? Any hints? I will try again after I remove the blade - don't know if that will help much, but I'll try.

[Lars Thomas]

Stan,
...The rate of hospitalization was five percent [for saw injuries] compared to the average rate of four percent associated with all consumer products reported through the NEISS system.


Going from 4 to 5% is still 25% more dangerous.

[Glen Blanchard]

One additional note that I haven't seen mentioned .. .. .. no matter what angle you tilt the blade to, the fence stays dead-accurate. On most saws (not all - MOST), the minute you tilt the blade for a bevel-rip, you can kiss the accuracy of the fence goodbye.

That reminded me, Bob, of another really neat thing about the SawStop, that to my knowledge does not exist on any other saw. The blade can be tilted all the way from 0 degrees to 45 using the same ZCI. No need to change ZCI's as a result of tilting the blade. I think that is so cool.

[Joe Jensen]

Actually, unless I am wrong, the riving knife cannot be used with the blade gaurd. The blade gaurd has a splitter - but not a riving knife.

To answer the original question, I LOVE the saw and have not one regret.

Glen, I think the strict definition of a riving knife is that it's a splitter that follows the blade and can even be used for cuts that are not all the way through the wood. The blade guard uses a splitter that is the same thickness as the riving knife and it follows the blade. But, the blade guard can't be used for non-through cuts, but then that's obvious as the guard would be above the wood anyway. I believe the proper operation is to use the blade guard with built in splitter whenever possible, and then use the riving knife if the blade guard is not possible. Both function the same way....joe

[Jake Helmboldt]

The trunnions on the SS are massive. An employee at Woodcraft said the biggest he has seen on any saw, and I believe it. The fit and finish is top notch and every part of the saw feels much more solid and tight than any other cabinet saw, including the new PM 2000. I'd say short of the euro saws that the SS is tops in quality, finish, robustness, etc. Also has well designed dust collection.

I don't have one, but I'd like to.

[Dan Lee]

Dan,

I, too, am needing to lower my knife a bit. I am having a heck of a time getting the allen wrench in the screw closest to the outfeed side of the saw, and have very little room to turn it once I have have the wrench seated in the head of the screw. I have the riving knife out and the blade has been lowered all the way down. Did you have any such difficulty? Any hints? I will try again after I remove the blade - don't know if that will help much, but I'll try.

Glen
Nope no tricks it was pain in the rear. I had the blade removed which gives a little more room plus if I slipped I wouldn't gash my hand on the blade.
I loosened the 2 bolts just enough so I could move the assembly but it would stay where I set it then put the blade back on to set the height once I had that I took the blade off again and tightened the bolts.

[Glen Blanchard]

Glen, I think the strict definition of a riving knife is that it's a splitter that follows the blade and can even be used for cuts that are not all the way through the wood. The blade guard uses a splitter that is the same thickness as the riving knife and it follows the blade. But, the blade guard can't be used for non-through cuts, but then that's obvious as the guard would be above the wood anyway. I believe the proper operation is to use the blade guard with built in splitter whenever possible, and then use the riving knife if the blade guard is not possible. Both function the same way....joe

Joe,

Your point is well taken. I was just quoting SawStop's terminology as the manual refers to it as a splitter. I suppose that, as it will not allow a non-through cut, even though it moves with the blade, it is closer to being a splitter than it is to being a riving knife.

[Bob Michaels]

Bob - If you wish to improve on the blade DC, I have a thread on my solution. Click on my name in the main SMC page - then click on "threads started by me" - you should find it somewhere..

Congrats...

Thanks Roy, that was very informative.

[Brian Penning]

Question...What are your thoughts in regards to the 2 year warranty if somehow the electronics failed sometime after 2 years? Sawstop states they're not liable.
Is it even possible for this to occur?
TIA

[Richard Butler]

Going from 4 to 5% is still 25% more dangerous.
Let see.

100 people
4 people get injured - incident rate of 1 in 25 people
5 people get injured - incident rate of 1 in 20 people.

I fail to see a 25% increase. Am I missing something?

Now if you want to see some creative math watch this clip.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7106559846794044495&q=ma+kettle+math&hl=en

[Richard Butler]

Question...What are your thoughts in regards to the 2 year warranty if somehow the electronics failed sometime after 2 years? Sawstop states they're not liable.
Is it even possible for this to occur?
TIA

Yes. Electronics in general is not noted for it's long term longevity. Take the Delta Q3 scroll saw for example. There are a few electronics things that will last quite a while, but they are few and far between. If it is built right, then there should be no issues for a good many years. Even if the whole module goes belly-up, you can still operate the saw without it so I would say that you are still good to go.

Besides, if the module triggers you are going to be minus a module and a blade plus maybe some other parts as well which is the whole point anyway.

[Glen Blanchard]

Let see.

100 people
4 people get injured - incident rate of 1 in 25 people
5 people get injured - incident rate of 1 in 20 people.

I fail to see a 25% increase. Am I missing something?
4 x 1.25 = 5

That is a 25% increase, no?

[Stan Welborn]

Yes. Electronics in general is not noted for it's long term longevity. Take the Delta Q3 scroll saw for example. There are a few electronics things that will last quite a while, but they are few and far between. If it is built right, then there should be no issues for a good many years. Even if the whole module goes belly-up, you can still operate the saw without it so I would say that you are still good to go.





And you're in the same boat those who paid much less for their saws? Don't get me wrong, I love the concept, just playing devil's advocate.

[Per Swenson]

About the electronics and Devil advocacy.

This is not your average company.

Ever try to deal with any of the majors with a tool problem?

Except for a select few, these pages run rampant with storys

of customer service nightmares.

Not so with Sawstop. A human on the phone everytime.

Per

[Scott Goldby]

I had mine for six months and love it.

[Richard Butler]

4 x 1.25 = 5

That is a 25% increase, no?

I suppose one could say that rapes went up 100% in my town last year. Two years ago we had one rape. This past year we had two rapes.

What are the chances you are going to get raped assuming that the town has a population of 100,000 people?

The fact of the matter is that 9% of all saw injuries that require a hospital visit, are an amputation. This raises a few questions.

One question is "How many accidents go unreported?" My guess is that there are a great many. So the total amputation risk factor is likely much lower than is stated in the report. How much is anyone's guess.

I leave the decision regarding the purchase of a Sawstop up to the buyer but I think it is best to be an informed buyer. Don't think that just because you have a Sawstop that you can't get hurt and hurt badly. You can and you will if you aren't careful. In other words you will have all your fingers...they might be broken or crushed, but you will have them all.

[Mike Heidrick]

Hre is a devils advocate thought. Most people that can buy a $3700-$4000 saw are not spending their last ever tool dollar on this saw. For me, If 15 years down the road my saw blows up and will not work and no one is around that can help me get the saw back up and running - I will buy a new saw. You can say whatever you like but that is what I would do. Also if someone eclipses the sawstop by a huge margin with some great new technology (safety or not) I am not saying I will not consider it just because I have a sawstop. Sawstop does not have to be your last saw unless you want it to be.

[Heather Deans]

I've had mine for about a month and a half. I love it. What makes it better? Incredibly solid, low vibration, quiet, screams quality, more adjustments than you can ever possibly want or need- and none needed out of the crate. Nice solid fence, nice additional safety features- I really like the one about not being able to turn on the saw when the cabinet doors are open. Good dust collection. Very intuitive and smartly designed at the same time. Every question I asked them they had an answer for. For the record, I had a probably 50+ year old Rockwell Unisaw in a university shop- and it was a great saw. I probably would not have ever replaced it except for the addional safety features on the Saw Stop, but I wouldn't buy one until I saw it. As soon as I saw one in person, I was sold.We're still trying to decide what to do with it, but I have no regrets. As wonderful as that saw was, this blows it out of the water. Plus, its just plain gorgeous sitting in the shop- that does count for something! :)
Heather

[David Wambolt]

I bought the Sawstop because looking at every saw on the floor (General 350, Powermatic 66/2000, Jet, Delta and Sawstop), the Sawstop was clearly the nicest saw of the bunch. You pay for that as well, but it's not like you are paying for a gimmick device and getting a crappy saw. That holds true for many 'great inventions' out there, but the Sawstop delivers on both accounts. If I had the room, a true slider like Jim Becker purchased would have been at the top of my list. I don't plan to ever cut my fingers off using a table saw, and I certainly won't be throwing my hands around with any less care because that blade will retract below the table. But hey if by some odd chance something happens, I have a better chance than most walking away and being able to wave goodbye to my family with my fingers intact. The bottom line is, I looked over the saws, and made a decision that I'm financially and mechanically perfectly fine with.

Some people buy a Hyundai and some people buy a Lexus. What do most people need? Four wheels and a seat. There was a time when Harbor Freight and K-Mart were my tool dealers of choice, but that's no longer the first place I run when I need a tool. I'm not saying I don't buy things at Harbor Freight, I'm saying that as I've gotten older, I make better money and that gives me the ability to get a few of the nicer items in life. What do most people need for this topic of discussion? A saw that cuts accurately. Some people want a black one, some people want a green one, or perhaps a beige and yellow one. The topic here was do any owners who have purchased a Sawstop regret their purchase? Not how many fingers get amputated and if the Sawstop is worth it. I might buy a bling/bling table saw and then buy an average jointer. What about the other hobbiest who buys that 12" Jointer that I wish I had. Do I say "Man why did you buy a 12" jointer when you only work with three inch boards?". Heck no.. I say "Way to go, I'm jealous and enjoy your new tool!". This is supposed to be fun guys, and every topic that involves spending a bit more money seems to be a debate. I'm not rich by any means, but if people want to buy a tool and they are comfortable with the purchase, then so be it. I don't knock someone for buying a Grizzly instead of a Powermatic PM2000 because the Grizzly lacks a riving knife and it could prevent injury. I would say, "congrats on the new saw" because you know darn well there is a very happy guy or gal standing their drooling over their new machine. It gets old reading "You paid how much for that... " or "you should have bought this because you have a 1 in 3,958,511 chance of getting your finger cut". Tool gloat is supposed to be a fun thing, but often times it gets turned into a nasty battle royal. Same as EZ versus Festool - I think both are great. I bought an EZ, and to some that makes me the enemy. Some don't care and think both are great like me. Does it do the job? You bet it does and I'm happy everytime I've used it. The same will hold true for the Sawstop and most all of my other tools.

I know I'm fairly new, but I think it's the variety of machines that give forums like this life. It would get plenty boring talking about a PM66 day in and day out. Variety is good.

[Bill Weiher]

Amazing none of the major manufacturers bought, adopted or otherwise licensed this technology when it was shopped to them a few years back.

It will indeed be interesting to see if/how/when they will respond. With all the excellent claims of these SS products and the fantastic service they deliver, I can only imagine it is only a matter of time for them.

Many kudos to the inventors and business people at SS for “building a better mousetrap”. …And all done right here, as many of you like to say, "in the good ol' USA".

Ingenuity has put this country on the map, and with products like this it may very well keep us there. :)

I do not work for or represent SS, just a fan of making things better.

[Art Mulder]

Amazing none of the major manufacturers bought, adopted or otherwise licensed this technology when it was shopped to them a few years back.


Shhhhhh!! ix-nay on the icensing-lay discussion.:p

[Stan Welborn]

I think some are getting the wrong idea about a few of the posts made in this thread. To me, as someone who in the near future plans to be making final choices on what machine they will be purchasing, I want all the views and thoughts I can gather on every machine I consider. It's less about what one costs over the other than getting the right unit for me, that I will be happy with and not regret. I don't want to be months down the road and say "dang, I shoulda bought a SawStop" , or "I coulda got just as good a saw for half the coin." (Heck I'll buy a euro slider if I decide that's what I will be the happiest about purchasing, but as of right now, I don't see my skill level and time availability warranting the expenditure of that much money on one.)

I want to hear why people think this is better than that. I also want to hear opinions of why others think it isn't. I want to hear if someone has regrets (either way) so I won't make the same mistakes they did. Save me some headache as well as money. Every post/person is different and informative in its own way. You also take peoples skill, available outlay, and space involved into account. Every thread I read I learn something. I didn't know SS only had a two year warranty on it's electronics. Good to know in one way, in another it doesn't really matter as this is something like a air bag on a car. You don't know if it'll work till you need it anyway, which you hopefully never will. Is that enough of an issue to purchase/not purchase? Each individual prospective buyer will have to decide that for themselves. Just like all other facts about whichever machine they are considering. The point is to learn as much as possible from others so I can make an informed decision about my purchase choices.

[Richard Butler]

"The point is to learn as much as possible from others so I can make an informed decision about my purchase choices. images/buttons/quote.gif (http://sawmillcreek.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=526763)"

That sums it all up quite nicely and even puts a bow on it.

[Art Mann]

Here is a question for the original poster. How many people are going to pay that much money for a 10" tablesaw and then come out and say it wasn't worth it?

[David Wambolt]

Here is a question for the original poster. How many people are going to pay that much money for a 10" tablesaw and then come out and say it wasn't worth it?

That is a valid point and one I was about to mention. Pride can be over whelming. I own one and have used one and I am very pleased with the saw I used. Mine is still in the crate, but I will enjoy every minute I'm using it. The only way I'd regret it is if the machine itself was sub-standard and it's not. I am positive there are people out there who regret the purchase and I don't believe the Sawstop is a perfect machine. But if you can pony up for it, you are getting a solid and innovative machine that is the more advanced than most all NA cabinet saws out there. I started off in metal working and after plopping down $6,500 for my Miller 300DX TIG Runner (my most expensive piece of equipment), a $4,000 table saw isn't all that crazy. My welder doesn't even have "Burnstop" and is much more challenging to use than a table saw. But it too is an advanced machine. :D

[Glen Blanchard]

Here is a question for the original poster. How many people are going to pay that much money for a 10" tablesaw and then come out and say it wasn't worth it?
While this question might be a valid one much of the time, I am not so sure it is in this case.

It has already been stated over and over that the SS is (possibly) the best engineered (non-slider) table saw around. That does not change following the purchase, so it would be hard to fathom that someone would say, "I regret buying the SS because I thought it was better made than it actually is".

That leaves the safety issue. Obviously, SS owners like the idea of being "protected" in the case of an injury that might never happen. Again, not likely to change after the purchase.

That leaves the possibilty of a SS owner who indeed had an accident for which the saw greatly reduced the severity of their injury. Although there is debate as to how much injury reduction the SS affords under varying circumstances, I think it is safe to say that there will be some injury reduction - possibly a significant reduction. Do you think they would have regrets?


Note - edited for clarification.

[Dave Hale]

Ken,

Someone will jump in here with a more specific and technical version.

But in order to support the safety mechanism this machine is overbuilt.

The controls are effortless and smooth. Raising the blade is like dialing

in a radio station on a Denon tuner.

My machine came out of the box with no discernible arbor run out.

Table perfectly square to the blade. No darn setup or fiddling.

Fit and finish, no holes barred machining puts this saw in a class

worthy of its price tag, with out the Sawstop technology.

Far as I am concerned that is just a bonus.

Per
That statement says it all to me.
Per, I've read your other posts, seen your work displayed here and on WoodshopDemos and respect your opinion, humorous as it can be. Eventually I'll get a weekend free and come out to see your and your Dad's digs.
If you all haven't seen a SawStop yet, go take a look. It is extremely well made and I haven't seen or heard one regret yet.
I use the blade guard (always) and kickback pawls and have blade, splitter and fence down to .004 of an inch and still got a bruise from kickback that lasted 9 days. The guard has a nice 'cut' from where my hand hit it. Nice hidden knot in 8/4 walnut. The adrenaline drain (and mortality realization) from that incident decided it for me. Believe me, I will always be fearful and careful when using a TS, but for the same reason I have a vehicle rated 5 stars in crash tests and has side curtain airbags is the same reason for the SS. It's a personal decision for each of us. I've made mine.

[Mike Heidrick]

Raising the blade is like dialing

in a radio station on a Denon tuner.

Just reread your post. You have great taste in audio equipment as well. I own the Denon 2900 DVD player and 3803 Receiver. Very good analogy.

[Mark Singer]

Just reread your post. You have great taste in audio equipment as well. I own the Denon 2900 DVD player and 3803 Receiver. Very good analogy.

To me the SawStop is just like you guys said....speading mayonaise on a Tuner fish sandwich....Denon("then on") to eating the whole ting:rolleyes:

[Mark Singer]

Seroiusly a cabinet saw has always been much more to me than just a place to rip wood.....I make joinery and detail cuts and accuracy is really key in my work on the cabinet saw...I use digital calipers and expect the saw to perform...if it doesn't it takes me a few cuts and I know. The SawStop is a top performer. Better than anything I have seen for people making furniture....period!

[Per Swenson]

Dave, Mike, Mark,

Thanks.

Written with the voice of Paul Harvey in my head...

And now, the rest of the story....

One day when the saw first came out, the hot dog video

had just hit the internet. I grabbed Pops and said, awe mang choo gotta

see this, tell me what you think.

Sat him down at the website and went off to make a omelette.

Half hour later, contented, I return to the shop and see Bob on the

phone. With the credit card in his hand! Milliseconds baby, I was screaming.

What The heck are you doing! No! What have you done!

I said tell me what you think! You get the idea. Then came the who are you

to spend my money rant. He just sat there with that Yoda like old

geezer smile and said,

" Son, you would have to be stupid not to buy this saw."

The rest is history.


Per

[jim gossage]

i was struck by the statistics of tablesaw injury listed on the SS website, especially the points about professional woodworkers being more likely to get injured and that 1 in 20 tablesaws generate an injury each year. although the odds are still in my favor, they are still kind of scary. the extra money for the SS is somewhat like an insurance policy. i have been paying $200/mo for disability insurance for at least 20 years - i hope i never need to collect, but if i do, i'll be glad i paid. SMC readers seem like a savvy group - i'm curious, how many of you have had a tablesaw injury that required a trip to the hospital?

[will sands]

Ken, I'm not sure who was first with the improvements, but the new Powermatic and the SawStop share some new features. The dust shroud around the blade works well. I like the fact that the blade raising mechanism runs up and down vertically and not a pivoting trunion as on most saws. On the SawStop I like the scale/crosshair on the fence and rail which makes it convenient to use the fence on the left side of the blade. The electrical disconnect on the saw is convenient for changing blades, etc. The saw's fit and finish are excellent and I personally like the colors. The riving knife works well and with the vertical blade height mechanism, it is never above the top of the blade as with pivoting trunions. The knife does preclude the use of the blade guard. My personal choice is to not use a blade guard. I like to see what I am cutting and I focus my full attention on the saw when making a cut. That's my choice and I don't argue for or against blade guards. You may call me "Lefty" some day, but for now I can still count to 10.

I have a Powermatic 66 in my shop and I like it a lot. I would not trade it for a new Powermatic, but a SawStop trade would be tempting. The SawStop is a good saw anywhere, but it is a god-send for locations where folks with little or no experience may be running the saw. I work part time at a Woodcraft store and we have a SawStop in the classroom. I also teach Wood Technology at WVU-P and I persuaded the program director to purchase a SawStop for the wood shop. Both environments benefit from the saw's safety features and it lowers the instructors’ anxiety level. And yes, I do require the students to use the blade guard when using the saws. After they complete the course they will be aware of the risks and benefits, and can make their own informed decisions.


Bill

[will sands]

Jim, I haven't needed to go to the hospital because of a table saw, but I want to relate a tale so that the SawStop "nay-sayers" can say "I told you so". When I finish a cut on my PM66, if I don't intend to make another cut immediately, my habit is to crank the blade down below the table surface. I don't like to run the trunion into the stop, so I stop cranking before I hit the stop. On this occasion I made the cut, cranked the blade down and reached for the cutoff. The blade was still spinning and was ever-so-slightly above the table. The result was a "band aide" scratch. If I had been using a SawStop, I would have trashed a Woodworker II (~$100) and a SawStop cartridge ($70) over such a small injury. The SawStop safety features protect the operator until the blade stops turning. But, if you run your finger into a running SawStop at the normal wood feed rate your injury will be limited to a small cut and the $170 would be a reasonable price to pay for preventing a serious injury.

Bill

[Mike Heidrick]

So two truths from me.

I showed the video to my dad. He was shocked. He said Why do you not have one of these? I said because they cost 4 grand. If it was 2 grand like every other saw I would have one right now. He said if you put up two, I'll put up two. I said OK. He said if we do this Never second guess the purchase. I said OK. He was honest and so was I. His check arrived, I placed the order and picked it up. I then sold the Delta on craigslist (paid for shipping, tax, and the HTC base for the SS). Black replaced Blue Gray.

I should have went to the hospital last June, Kickback on 12"X12" 3/4" Plywood right to the right side of the belly. Hit me like a missle. Only time in my life I was glad I was fat. It would have broke ribs easily. Cut me right through the shirt. Still have a nice I-beam looking scar. Guard was not on - but got installed the next day. Guards wew given to new buyer of Delta. Since the SS arrived I have used the guard and RK 100% of the time.

[Steve Cohen]

It's great technology, and clearly a well built saw with a cult like devotion from those who've bought one, but IMO hardly a $4000 saw.

If you've got the money, you can rationalize the cost, but for that pricepoint you could pick up a used slider like a Martin or the like. It's a $2000 saw with that you're paying an added $2000 premium for Gass's invention.

[Jim Dunn]

I just got a quote on a SawStop yesterday and as this thread is timely I'll pass along the price here. It was $2800.00 I don't know where everyone has gotten the idea they are $4,000. Maybe that was the old price? I also got a quote on a new Powermatic 2000 and it was $2300.

For the additional $500.00 I'll buy the SawStop.

I can't seem to find any negative's about this saw. The only thing I'm confused about is the need for a dado cartridge? Don't quite understand that part. Maybe more mass with more blades needs a larger/wider cartridge?

[Steve Cohen]

I just got a quote on a SawStop yesterday and as this thread is timely I'll pass along the price here. It was $2800.00 I don't know where everyone has gotten the idea they are $4,000. Maybe that was the old price? I also got a quote on a new Powermatic 2000 and it was $2300.

Shipping, fence, extension table, I'd say your figure doesn't reflect those accessories that most will purchase. $2800 is the tip of the iceberg.

Shipping starts at $325, and goes up to $600 for the East coast. Your figure of $2800 seems highly suspect.

[Jim Dunn]

Steve your right I missed the $330 for the fence, never heard of a saw being shipped without a fence, I can pick it up right in my home town from a local dealer. The saw is priced with a 30" table as that's all I can fit in my small shop.

[Mike Heidrick]

It was $2800.00 I don't know where everyone has gotten the idea they are $4,000.

My $4000+ comments come from my receipt. Actually $4470.

$2799 saw
$200 2Hp upgrade (I wanted 5hp)
$469 52" T-Glide Sawstop fence
$99 extension table for 52" fence
$89 dado brake
$69 extra 10" brake
$29 dado insert
$29 extra true zero clearence insert - (factory one is not exactly a ZCI)
$375 shipping
$4158 sub total
$312 tax at 7.5%
$4469.85

You did not get a quote out the door on a sawstop - you got the list price on just a saw. Ask them for an out the door price. You can also go to sawstops site and look at the prices. Right now we all pay list.

With the PM2000 the table, fence are included in the $2500 and no need for special Dado setups. Shipping may also be included.

[Glen Blanchard]

The only thing I'm confused about is the need for a dado cartridge? Don't quite understand that part. Maybe more mass with more blades needs a larger/wider cartridge?
Jim, the brake cartridge needs to physically be close to the blade - SS recommends using a nickel as a spacer. Since the dado stack is 8" and not 10", a different cartridge is required as the 10" cartridge cannot be adjusted to that extent.

Make sense?

[Steve Cohen]

Jim, if you didn't have to pay shipping, kudos to you! From Sawstop's website, shipping to MO is $525. The Sawstop owners I've chatted with have a 5HP, with the larger table, and their final cost was right around $4000.

[Jim Dunn]

Mike, as I stated I missed the fence. The dado brake isn't on my price list and I can't use the 5hp. Also I am thinking about the 30" rails as my shop is postage stamp size. I can see your $4,000 easy now but, a saw that large isn't in my future. Sales tax I can live with, I'd have to pay that on any saw I bought.

Still a good price for a quality piece of equipment.

[Glen Blanchard]

Jim - Congrats if you don't have to pay for shipping. I know that at Woodcraft, they charge for shipping even if it is sitting in their store and you pick it up yourself.

[Mike Heidrick]

Mike, as I stated I missed the fence. The dado brake isn't on my price list and I can't use the 5hp. Also I am thinking about the 30" rails as my shop is postage stamp size. I can see your $4,000 easy now but, a saw that large isn't in my future. Sales tax I can live with, I'd have to pay that on any saw I bought.

Still a good price for a quality piece of equipment.
No prob and sorry about that - we were typing at the same time - Just wanted you to know the true price. I feel Sawstop tries to hide the true price and I want to make potential members aware of the true cost is all. BTW - that 30" table is $59 :)

Rant begin:
I have no idea why I had to buy a fence, pay for the dado setup extra, pay shipping ($375 was to Woodcraft which was 40 miles away! - to get it to my house was $625 or something ridiculous) and then turn around and pay sales tax and why did I pay sales tax on shipping! Crazy. I think in the future this will be the first items to change in their marketing model. I forsee $3000 OTD with the fence and dado brake.
Rant over.

I know I added to my cost but like I said before - after the Delta saw sold I was into this for $1300 thanks to the gift from my dad.

The dado brake is wider as well to stop the stack in addition to being thicker.

[Jim Dunn]

Just got off the phone and NO SHIPPING. Thats if I can wait for a stock saw. Only thing they have in stock right now is a 5hp saw. About 4-6 weeks for a 3hp. My money may be burnt through my pants leg by then:)

I now also understand about the dado insert. Thanks.

[Keith Webster]

2 Reasons that this product is better than most. The company cares about the people that are using the machine and its made in the USA! Not many tools made here anymore.

[Anthony Anderson]

Keith, I believe the saws are actually made in a plant in Taiwan. The HQ/RD as well as the main shipping point in the US are in Washington state. Someone correct me if I am wrong on this. But you are correct, the people at SawStop appear to care about their product and the people who buy it, as I have heard ALL positive comments about their customer service. Regards, Bill



2 Reasons that this product is better than most. The company cares about the people that are using the machine and its made in the USA! Not many tools made here anymore.

[Glen Blanchard]

the people at SawStop appear to care about their product and the people who buy it, as I have heard ALL positive comments about their customer service. Regards, Bill

Boy, ain't that the truth!! I have called them both pre-sale and post-sale maybe 6 times or so with some technical questions. I get a technician in about 15 seconds every time - and get this - they seem to be in a good mood each time!! I have even had them tell me that they ENJOY hearing from their customers.

[will sands]

A little more clarification: Most Woodcraft stores are now franchises, so they may have other systems. My store buys power tools direct from the manufacturers. With Delta, Porter Cable, Jet/PM and most others there is a minimum dollar amount per order which will allow the manufacturer to pay the shipping costs. The savings are passed on to the Woodcraft customers. With SawStop the shipping is paid by Woodcraft and they have to pass that cost on as well. I agree that the SawStop business plan and pricing is less than desirable from the retail standpoint, but they didn't ask me. It's similar to getting the price on a new car and then finding that if you want wheels on it, it will be a little more. I still believe that the SawStop saw is an excellent saw and the safety features speak for themselves. Their customer service is top notch. The saws cost more, but you get more.

Bill

[David Wambolt]

It's great technology, and clearly a well built saw with a cult like devotion from those who've bought one, but IMO hardly a $4000 saw.

If you've got the money, you can rationalize the cost, but for that pricepoint you could pick up a used slider like a Martin or the like. It's a $2000 saw with that you're paying an added $2000 premium for Gass's invention.

Cult like following? I'm not really seeing that. What you see are satisified customers, which is better than dissatisified customers with a $4,000 investment. I think it's a very nice saw, but a Grizzly would cut wood just as well in my shop, but not as safely. A PM2000 is a $2,000 saw and the Sawstop is superior to it in build quality in many ways, so I'd say it's a $2,300 saw without the accessories. :)

Should Sawstop's R&D and invention be free? I think not in todays society. It's the first of it's kind in this market and I'm pretty sure the guys who have been saved by this technology are not saying "Dang, I paid $4,000 for that"? Did people pay more for the cars that first included Navigation? Oh yes they did. What about the first Beta VCR's and the first Microwaves? Still today, a simple technology like navigation yields an average ~1,700 price increase. Is there more technology in a navigation system compared to the average computer that costs $500 from Dell? Less the GPS antenna, not really. People will still pay that premium. I have Navigation and I don't use it everyday. Sort of like the Sawstop technology. But that one day I'm lost and late, it helps pays for itself.

Price varies in the market place and this is no different than anything else. Had some of the larger manufacturers picked up on the technology, I would think the premimum for the Sawstop technology would be much lower. But let's not forget that in order for Sawstop to get the technology to market, they first had to market their own line of saws. The R&D costs, molds, and manufacturing labor/machines/assembly plants are not free. They didn't just go clone another saw, they redesigned it from the ground up. There are companies out there that clone a product and probably make more profit than Sawstop does. Plus you're paying for future growth of the technology in other product lines. If they sold them at bottom dollar and lost or made very little revenue, then the company wouldn't be around for long. I'd personally rather pay a bit more and see them stay in business with a continued development effort. Not only that but they answer the phone and care about the customer, a service that again is not free to provide and few companies seem to get right these days. This saw and it's technology is their bread and butter. They are not Delta, Dewalt, or WMH who have hundreds of different main stream products. They have a single revenue generating product and if people expect a steep discount for the new kid on the block, it's not going to happen. I believe that is why the Sawstop is the quality that it is. They could NOT afford to get it wrong.

As for a used slider, it's exactly that... used. What happens if it needs repair or it's 3 phase? Don't forget most people don't have the means to move a saw that large, so they'd have to hire it out. Or they need to buy it sight unseen and have it shipped for a large fee. There are usually additional costs buying used unless you have a complete professional quality shop with fork lifts, large trucks, 3 phase, etc. For the average Joe, this isn't the case. Sliders are 'typically' used and abused in production. Now having said that, I would have rather had a sliding saw. However space is a limiting factor and a cabinet saw fit my space requirements, a slider did not. There are more factors in buying a saw than just looking at the price and the paint job. A guy working in a small basement can't get a MM slider in there, but the Sawstop or similar is doable. Just food for thought. Now should I have to pay shipping on a show room floor saw? No. I don't agree with everything Sawstop does. Fixed pricing, shipping costs, legal crud, etc. But when I put it all on the table, I was okay with it as a whole.

[Ben Rafael]

Woodcraft frequently has free shipping sales during the year.
If you can pick up from a woodcraft ask to speak to the owner and tell him you will buy it now if you dont have to pay for shipping. If he is a fool he will let you walk out the door with it. Some woodcrafts will let you use their discount certificate that they give you at their classes on power tools. Ask, I think the discount was 10 or 15%.
Woodcraft online usually doesn't charge sales tax, you can save a few hundred bucks there. Might wash with the shipping.

[Glen Blanchard]

Woodcraft online usually doesn't charge sales tax, you can save a few hundred bucks there. Might wash with the shipping.
This, from Woodcraft website.............................

http://www.woodcraft.com/stores/Images/Headers/header_onavailable.gif

[Brian Penning]

Dumb question maybe but..
1. The saw is only available as a left tilt?
2. If so I can't figure out the access cover being on the right side of the saw. It's the opposite of other cabinet saws, no?

Also is there a movable base for the saw?
Thks in advance.

[Glen Blanchard]

Also is there a movable base for the saw?
Thks in advance.

This one I can answer. I am not happy with my Shop Fox mobile base, so I called the folks at SS as I knew they were developing a mobile base themselves. I was told that their mobile base will require virtually no effort to move.....and the best part........when it is in the "fixed" position, the saw will sit directly on the floor (i.e. not the mobile base itself). What this means is once it is put in this position, it will have no movement at all - just as if there was no mobile base under it. Don't understand how this can be accomplished, but this is what I was told. Supposed to be out mid-year sometime.

[Ben Rafael]

Well then, I guess I need to go in to a woodcraft to get one.
I'm saving my coins for one and should have enough by the end of this year.
I will ask the woodcraft owner to not charge shipping, they've been good folks in the past with me and like to make a profit and keep their customers satisfied. I'd bet they make big profit on the SS add-ons, I'll add some stuff on to make them more amenable.

[Steve Cohen]

David, I don't think Gass's invention should be free, but IMO it's an outrageous premium. Clearly others feel different, and are willing to spend for it which is fine by me, but many realize the "value" isn't there at sawstops current pricing.

Just because you're buying used, it doesn't equate to a restoration or potential service issues. I'll take my 50+ year old Tannewitz over a sawstop anyday of the week, which cost me 1/5 of a sawstop. That savings buys an awful lot other needs, and is why many won't fork over the $4K.

The argument that if the larger manufacturers had picked up on the technology is a misnomer, Gass attempted to mandate his invention, so the resistance he's encountered is easily understood. If safety was his real mission, the pricetag would be a lot lower IMO.

More power to him, I'd likely do the same if I was in his shoes, but imagine how many more saws would be sold if the premium over a PM2000 was only $300-$400, you'd have no argument from me, and I'd bet the number of units sold would increase substantially.

If you think the construction of a sawstop is substantial, which it is compared to other new machines, it still pales in comparison to a vintage saw like an Oliver, Yates or Tanny.

A vintage saw and phase converter can put you into operation for less than a 1/3 of a sawstop's price, so IMO the 3 phase argument doesn't hold water. A slider does require the space, so it's not for everyone, but my point is in regard to value.

[Mike Heidrick]

Steve, it was only after Delta, WMH, and others turned Steve down that he started lobbying. He had asked for 8% of the total sale of the saw for his cut. He almost sold the device to Ryobi I believe. Serch for "Safety does not sell saws" and you can read up on this. He tried to take advantage of the Band the manuf had before creating his own saw.

[Shiraz Balolia]

Steve, it was only after Delta, WMH, and others turned Steve down that he started lobbying. He had asked for 8% of the total sale of the saw for his cut.

I beg to differ on that point (regardless of what was said in some article). Based on a first hand discussion I had with him, he wanted 15%.

[Jim Dunn]

If he wanted 15% of the cost of a new saw is that in fact to much to pass on to the consumer for protection? And if it were to increase sales, or at least keep the R&R price down on that type of technology, how much is it really worth?

Just a couple of questions. I don't mean to imply anything by asking them.

[Dan Lee]

In addtion to the 8 or 15% royalty... is that right it was just a licensing fee?
Im curious what total cost increase would have been for a cabinet saw.
I would guess there would be redesign costs and new castings plus the electronics..

[Al Willits]

Just wondering, is the sawstop or the euro sliding saws safer overall??
Al

[Art Mann]

If he wanted 15% of the cost of a new saw is that in fact to much to pass on to the consumer for protection? And if it were to increase sales, or at least keep the R&R price down on that type of technology, how much is it really worth?

Just a couple of questions. I don't mean to imply anything by asking them.

The answer to the first question is an obvious yes! Even 8% is too much in my opinion. Obviously, the leading saw manufacturers thought so too. Any technology, or an individual item for that matter, is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. The inventor of the technology was both greedy and foolish in offering this outrageous deal to what are now his competitors. Trying to force them to accept his technology on his terms by legal means makes him unethical as well. Of course it is mere speculation, but I think the guy could have made a lot more money by offering the technology at a realistic price point so that most all of the high end equipment would eventually include the technology. I believe the Sawstop brand will forever serve a niche market. If they eventually offer a contractor saw, it might well cost in excess of $1500. How many people will go for that instead of a cabinet saw from Grizzly or Delta at the same price?

Lets suppose this guy is eventually successful and the CPSC forces all manufacturers to implement his technology at his price. The truth is, this additional technology will cost more than the current retail price of many low end tablesaws. He will effectively force new tablesaw ownership into the realm of the affluent only. Is that what we want?

[Jim Becker]

Just wondering, is the sawstop or the euro sliding saws safer overall??
I don't think there is a definitive answer on that, Al. The only truly safe saw is the one you never touch....'certainly a "not fun" time.

When you are using the sliding wagon on a Euro saw (properly), your hands are never near the blade. That's a pretty safe situation. But as you can see from pictures I've already posted, there are times when you still need to use the rip fence...placing your hand(s) in the line of fire...at least until you develop/learn other methods of work that alleviate the need to manually push the wood through the cut.

SS potentially is a safer saw should your flesh actually come in contact with the spinning cutter, but there are no absolutes. Electronics are involved. Mechanical failures can occur. Our "friend" Murphy always loves a challenge. So even a SawStop user needs to take care and always use safety "best practices" when power is applied and the blade is turning round and round.

[David Wambolt]

I live in Sacramento, CA and Sacramento Machinery Company sells a full variety of power tools from most of the big names (General, Powermatic, Jet, Delta, Festool.. just to name a few) informed me that the Sawstop was their #1 selling Tablesaw and has been a real hit since they started selling them last year. During the month I purchased mine, they had sold around 20 units, compared to the next highest manufacturer of table saws which was Powermatic. Powermatic sales were 6-8 total units for the month of various models. I also talked with Woodcraft and they said sales were doing very well on the Sawstop.

Is that isolated to my market area? I encourage those to ask your nearest Sawstop distributor to see how they are doing in terms of sales on these machines. I'm a guy who does not expect innovation or technology to come on the cheap, especially considering the Sawstop cabinet saw is the first tool on this planet with this type of technology that I know of.

[Ben Grunow]

The SS has an excellent dust shroud/hose assembly inside that keeps the cabinet cleaner inside and the top is larger (if I am not mistaken, which I might be) than the PM. Not to mention the thigh bump switch.

[Bob Michaels]

I think Jim Becker really summed up the issue of safety pretty precisely. My feeling is, if you use the same good dose of respect/fear for the SS as you would with any saw, you will simply have one more level of protection using the SS sensibly. I believe every precaution you take with any saw should also be taken with the SS. That being said, the extra dose of potential built-in protection is worth the cost of admission to me.

I guess I now certainly have the answer to my original question, which was, are there any regrets. After all of this discussion I can't find anyone who regretted purchasing this saw.

Regarding pricing, if Steve Gass would have received his 8 - 15% (and I think he would deserve it considering such a revolutionary improvement) as requested from a mass producer like Delta or Powermatic, the saw would probably still sell for the same as it does today when you take into consideration the economies of scale enjoyed by these large manufacturers, as opposed to Steve Gass going into the manufacturing business from square one. I have to believe that legal liability issues got in the way of Gass making a deal with one of the big boys. The corporate lawyers probably freaked out when trying to use the words "safety" and "saw" in the same sentence. Either that or these big corporations don't have a clue on how to differentiate themselves in a very competitive business. Now, that being said, I probably would still buy the saw if it were a few hundred bucks more, because I think it is that worthwhile. Based on sales volumes that I hear, price doesn't seem to be a deal killer for quite a few woodworkers. If I had room I would be looking at the MM slider like Jim Becker. The SS is on the truck and headed my way. Enough said. Thanks for all the replies.

[David Wambolt]

Nicely said Bob. Want to have some more fun? Wait until May 1st and ask if anyone has any regrets purchasing a Festool Domino. :)

I am sure you will very much enjoy the Sawstop.

[Jim Murphy]

I have had my SS for about four months. No regrets is an understatement. It is a pleasure to use, worth the money in my opinion, and a wonderfully smooth, precise tool. And contrary to earlier posts, if I felt ripped off, I would not hesitate to tell you.

I don't know if 8% or 15% is a fair licensing fee, but I guess the SS inventor is proving the legacy table saw manufacturers wrong. Assume $2,000 for a table saw, then 8 to 15% would be $160 to $300 for the license. I think the market has shown that WWs are willing to pay a retail price that would more than cover the license fee, plus the additional cost to upgrade the saw. Of course, with SS, WWs are getting a better saw (in addition to the brake). So maybe we are better off that no one purchased the license, because the end result is a much better all around saw, not just an old design with a new brake.

[Art Mann]

Sacramento Machinery may sell a high percentage of Sawstops because they are one of only 15 stores in California that sell the brand. The same can probably be said for many Sawstop distributors and for the same reason. I didn't actually count, but the Sawstop website lists what looks to be less than 400 distributors nationwide. Powermatic lists over 12,000. Do you really think that Sawstop is outselling Powermatic? I suspect Powermatic sells only a small fraction of the saws that Delta sells. What about Grizzly? Do you really think that Sawstop sells even 10% of the number of saws they sell? Don't jump to conclusions based on single store sales or buzz on this or other message boards. At present, Sawstop is in the noise level in the tablesaw market. I'm just speculating the market will stay that way until the Sawstop guy decides to sell his technology at a price the big guys are willing to pay.

[Art Mann]

"I think the market has shown that WWs are willing to pay a retail price that would more than cover the license fee, plus the additional cost to upgrade the saw."

I think the market has shown that a very small percentage of tablesaw customers are willing to pay the Sawstop price. The overwhelming majority are not. Oddly enough, I would be one of the few who might actually shell out the cash because of all the fine attributes of the machine. I am just not willing to support a company and owner who is as unethical as the Sawstop guy.

[Mike Heidrick]

Art you are right. I was more concerned with who the dealers were selling too. Average guy does not buy a saw at Woodcraft (or other high end WW dealer) IMO anyway.

Growing up everyone I knew had tools from Sears. Just the environment I grew up in I guess. No one was hardcore WW though. Grandpa had the craziest tools - he was into saw sharpening.

[Ted Miller]

The SS has an excellent dust shroud/hose assembly inside that keeps the cabinet cleaner inside

This is one of my concerns and so far I have not asked or heard from any of the SS owners, how is the inside of your cabinet with dust. I am wondering or should I say I am sure that the electronics are well protected against dust. How is the DC part of the saw working for the owners...

[Bob Michaels]

Just received WoodCraft Magazine in the mail. The SawStop ad implies they have sold 5,000 saws. That's quite a testimony. Cleaver ad : "5000 customers love the way it cuts. Over 100 love the way it doesn't".

[Chuck Nickerson]

those willing to pay for quality and safety, and those who aren't.

[Jim Becker]

As usual, this thread has devolved into two camps: those willing to pay for quality and safety, and those who aren't.
This thread has been remarkably civil relative to a subject that has often gotten "spirited" here and elsewhere. I know that everyone appreciates that!

Quality and safety are both at play here, but the key value proposition that drives some portion of the woodworking community to SawStop is the extra safety feature(s) it adds. The fact that it happens to be a very nicely featured and high quality machine is frankly a refreshing side advantage for folks who buy the machine. Without the safety brake, it would be harder to differentiate the machine from high-quality competitors, such as the PM2000. Both are good saws. Both have riving knives. Both have dust collection hoods around the blade. Either one will satisfy most woodworkers when it comes to cutting wood. But the fact remains that there are many who cannot budget for either of these machines, too...even if they want one.

It's good that we do have choices and that our personal needs and concerns can be accommodated by those choices. Mine wasn't SawStop, but I have a lot of appreciation for both the machine and the increasing awareness of safety that it's causing in the community. The mere fact that we are talking openly about the dangers a table saw poses to our bodies will hopefully make everyone take pause and take precautions, whether they are using a SawStop or a $99 Craftsman bench top machine.

[Bob Michaels]

Well articulated, Jim.

[Douglas Robinson]

I appreciate all points of view. I am about to upgrade, and frankly it was the chance to play with a Sawstop that got my mind working on this. I like the technology behind the Sawstop. I could argue that I am careful and do not need the extra saftey. But, I am not the only one who may use my saw one day. I have two children, who if they show an interest in woodworking, I will gladly teach. So, having this would be a real boon.

On the other hand, I cannot afford the Sawstop. Even if I use my Incra extension table/rails and fence it would still cost me almost $3600. Out of my range. (even with selling my Jet.)

One question for you Sawstop owners: How long does it take to switch to the Dado set-up?

Thanks everyone for your lively discussion. And lets be careful out there.

Doug

[Al Willits]

Considering Mark once said he hears of more router accidents than with table saws, maybe we're dealing with the wrong machine....:)

I really don't think its, "those who are concerned with safety and those who aren't".
I think that's a unfair statement for what, 90% of the people out there who just can't afford a sawstop, cripes I have less than that in a 8" jointer, 15" planer and my TS, and I'm betting others, are in the same boat as I.
If we had to buy upper end equipment, many would be fishing now instead of wood working.
I hear the safety at all costs thrown around, but I think not all can afford the "all costs", them/I do what we can.

I've looked at the saw, looks great, but many like me can't afford it, even the Woodcraft store I go to says most are sold to schools and business's.
The saw has what appears no weak points and plenty of good points, just a bit to expensive for most of us hobbist's..imho

Now add the safety feature to my Hybrid for $300 and I'd go for it...maybe some day it'll happen.

Al

[Jim Dunn]

Looked over a SS with 50" rails. This was at a company that sold PM and Delta. They have a "demo" saw that they are using instead of the older delta. The demo saw has it stamped into the serial number so it's not for sale at any price. Darn:)

The fit and finish was better than most of the other high-end saws I've only drooled over before. I particularly liked the Mattison grind on the top instead of the blanchard grind I've found on most other saws. Can't compare it to any Euro saws as the most recent ww show didn't have any on display.

Would I be satisfied with a cabinet saw? You better bet on it. A Grizzly up to and including a PM. Would I be better off with a SS? As clumbsy as I am probably.

[Glen Blanchard]

I particularly liked the Mattison grind on the top instead of the blanchard grind I've found on most other saws.
Hey - Watch it - I resemble that remark. ;)

[Jim Dunn]

Opps:) Sorry about that.

[Jon Knauft]

Just finished watching Ask TOH and they were showing the new SawStop contractor saw. They even did the hot dog demo. I went to SawStop's website and noted the saw is going through field testing. Given the fact that certain configurations of the Delta Contractor saw and Biesemeyer fence can be over a grand it will be interesting to see where they price it.

-Jon

[Chuck Nickerson]

I understand not owning a SawStop because it's too expensive. After all, I don't even own one yet. I'm just always amazed at the number of anti-SawStop posts where the poster can't understand why anyone would own one, as if the apeal is all marketing smoke-and-mirrors.

[Paul Wingert]

Bill,


I have watched the "features" video and saw nothing that is not available on the Powermatic for example. I also got the impression that the riving knife and blade guard is an either/or situation. You can't use both at once ?
I have seen the demo before, but I repeat the question. What else about this saw makes it better than the others ?

I think the table (front to back) distance is 3 or 4 inches deeper than most saws. That's a nice feature. Not saying that alone is worth the cost, but that's nice.

[Al Willits]

""""""""
I understand not owning a SawStop because it's too expensive. After all, I don't even own one yet. I'm just always amazed at the number of anti-SawStop posts where the poster can't understand why anyone would own one, as if the appeal is all marketing smoke-and-mirrors.
""""""""

The beauty of the written word, seems it can mean many things to different people....:)

I'm probably missing it, but as I read most these posts, I didn't come away with that opinion, seems most were put off by the cost, 4k is a lot of money for the average saw buyer and I think that is what would prevent many from buying it.

I'm by far and away no expert on TS, but over the years I've got to know a reasonably built piece of machinery, and without actually using one of these, it imho appears to be one nice table saw.
Add the safety feature and I'd be hard pressed to know anyone who if they could afford it, might not give it serious thought.

I do think the hackles come up when people have the feeling that they don't believe in safety if they don't buy this saw, I'm wondering if this is where the opposition/attitude comes from??
Also possibly the comments on the designer and his business practices may have helped spark the argument, seems to have gotten quite the discussion.

Has been interesting that nobody has really complained about anything, well other than price, which seems to show some thought went into the saw, and they didn't just hang a brake on any old saw and promote just the safety, it actually is a good saw.
Worth 4k?
You get to decide...:)

Good posts, enjoying the discussion.
Al

[Jim Dunn]

After reading all the post and adding my 2cents I've decided we are all missing an important point. What with all the schools buying SS and obviously having to get rid of Uni's, PM's, Grizzly, ect. we just need to set back and wait for a fire sale on cabinet saws.

Just a thought:)

[wayne ateser]

in addition to the exhorbinant cost, the Sawstop is unable to slice cucumbers which is a summer tradition in the woodshop around here.

[John Hain]

in addition to the exhorbinant cost, the Sawstop is unable to slice cucumbers which is a summer tradition in the woodshop around here.

Actually, you can turn the safety feature off and cut all the cucumbers you want, if I'm not mistaken.............;):D

[David Wambolt]

Saladstop?

[wayne ateser]

Actually, you can turn the safety feature off and cut all the cucumbers you want, if I'm not mistaken.............;):D
$2500 more and able to turn it off? wadda bargain!

[Stan Welborn]

""""""""

Also possibly the comments on the designer and his business practices may have helped spark the argument, seems to have gotten quite the discussion.


Al

I for one would like to hear more of this issue. I'm now in a position in my life that cost isn't as large a factor in my decision making as it once was, but I wont do business with those I feel aren't fair in their dealings. Be it through greed, high pressure sales, hidden costs, or whatever the case may be.

The comments on the SS company's business practices is welcome knowledge to one such as I in search of information prior to making a decision. Mike's post on the breakdown of his costs for the SS was an eye opener too. These are things you'll not find in a sales flyer or brochure, and are what make forums such as these so great.Us new to the forum and in quest for information, rely greatly on the old timers knowledge of such things.

This thread has been very informative in several ways.

[Al Willits]

Stan, I don't know enough to give ya the high points, but ya might want to do a search and check out previous posts on the sawstop, seems to get a bit heated at times and we seem to have just calmed down from the last go around.
Maybe some have other suggestions?

Al

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

No regrets what so ever.
But I went austrian ;<)

[Jim Becker]

Stan, I don't know enough to give ya the high points, but ya might want to do a search and check out previous posts on the sawstop, seems to get a bit heated at times and we seem to have just calmed down from the last go around.
Maybe some have other suggestions?

Al
Al and Stan, given the subject of this thread...which is about regrets or no regrets...previous discussions on the business matters/philosophy are probably better resources, although many of those threads are likely closed due to things getting, um...too spirited.

[Matt Donohue]

I'm getting ready to buy a Sawstop and I'm looking for recommnedations for a mobile base. Any suggestions?

[Mike Heidrick]

I'm getting ready to buy a Sawstop and I'm looking for recommnedations for a mobile base. Any suggestions?

Sawstop is coming out with a base reportedly middle of the year. It may be a sawbase only and not account for the extension table. I have not seen it.

I own the HTC base made for the Sawstop. It is model # HST-3274-EX. It was $229 from HTC direct. I like it a lot.

[David Wambolt]

I also have the HTC mobile base and it supports the extension table. I have not used it yet, but it seems like a quality piece. It was $229 with $18 shipping from HTC. The shipping is a bargain when you see the size of the box it comes in.

[Matt Donohue]

Thanks for the information.:D

[Art Mann]

those willing to pay for quality and safety, and those who aren't.

How would you categorize the 80 or 90 % of woodworkers who will never be able to afford a $4000 tablesaw at all? I would guess that the overwhelming majority of woodworkers at large (not necessarily on this board) don't have $4000 invested in all their tools put together. Are these people uninterested in quality and safety?

[Jim Dunn]

I don't think money can buy "quality in woodworking projects" it's all in the operator. I can tell you from experience that a better maching make for a more enjoyable time in the shop. I've had more fun since I straightened out the fence on my cra--mns table saw:)

Saftey too can be improved by the operator.

[Chuck Nickerson]

myself a little better. I don't have a SawStop yet. I understand not buying one because of the high price. I'm puzzled by some of the posts apparent attitude that not enough fingers are cut off to justify anyone buying the saw.

[Mark Singer]

I don't think SawStop is for everyone....it seems like it is only for the people interested in safety , accuracy, and quality...there are plenty of products for all different needs...sometimes you get what you pay for....sometimes you save initially and pay at the hospital and everytime you shake hands....I should'a.....:rolleyes:

Sorry too late....you saved some money though:rolleyes:

[Bill Weiher]

I agree with many members who have stated that $4000 is certainly a premium for a table saw.

I also agree with Jim about the safety feature being used just once, I think many would agree $4000 may be a fair price to keep one, two, three of four of your fingers, much less the mental anguish associated with such an accident. What is one of your digits worth to you? This answer probably varies among all of us as well.


I think it was David who also mentioned that this is 100% brand new technology to the WW industry and possibly the world. Innovation often comes at and for a premium. Those who can or who choose to spend their earned dollars on such advancements actually do help the rest of us. They buy and as more and more of them buy, demand increases, supply ramps up to meet demand. It is my hope that as SS stays profitable and continues to offer its innovative product(s), it may continue to expand both its product and price ranges to meet the demand for a SS saw that is "more affordable" whatever that may mean in the marketplace.

For example, I believe SS now offers a contractors version of their $4000 cabinet saw, I don't know the pricing off hand but I wouldn't be surprised to see the price show up shortly in this thread. :)

The specific price isn't important to my point, my point is that profitable companies often expand and often will offer multiple products (many that will likely leverage it's patented technology). For example, I wonder if a circular saw could leverage a similar type technology, or as many of you have mentioned - a router, or a jointer? I think the applications of this type of technology may be much wider than many of us see today, I hope that SS, or ANY of the other WW machine manufactures see that as well and continue to innovate to make WW safer for us and future WWers. I think everyone could see how benefits everyone, albeit it may take more than a year.

As far as I'm aware, TS's haven't always looked or worked like they do today. But certainly the same basic principle has applied for some time. History shows us that every now and again something changes, hopefully for the better. I think we are currently in the midst of such a change and I'm excited to be able to witness and participate in this exciting change. I wasn't breathing when people went from riding in horse and carriage to an “automobile” but I bet in more than one way, people in small towns all over the developed world had conversations much like this. I'm glad technology has advanced and delivered all of us the ability, though still somewhat affluently, to use our home or work computers, connected to each other through phone, television and fiber optic cables, to share our thoughts, ideas and concerns regarding changes - whatever they might be.

I don't own a SS or work for the company, just a very big fan of safer WWing for everyone.

[Joe Chritz]

I have not done dedicated pricing yet so I can't say what the "premium" would be for the SS but...

I do know about safety features you never use. I have a car with airbags but have never been in a serious wreck. I wear a seatbelt but have never had a accident it would have been the saving factor for me. I carry insurance on my house, shop, cars and life. I wear a bullet resistant vest at work (even when it is hot) and haven't been shot.

Added safety for added cost is a standard in many areas. If it is "worth" it is up to the buyer, assuming it never gets used. If you use it then the cost is a non issue.

Hundreds of thousands of non-brake saws have been used and are still being used. If a quality cabinet saw was dropped off here tomorrow I would keep it and be happy. (hint hint. pm me for my address)

When I am able to upgrade to a new saw that I buy I will be buying a sawstop or another with the system. (The patent could be expired by the time I can scrounge the money)

Joe

[Bill Lantry]

Every couple weeks, I click on the sawstop site, waiting for that contractor saw to be available. I have it in my mind it's going to go for about $800, without fence or wings. I'll take the wings off my ts 3650, and drill them if I have to to make them fit. I'll put my incra ts-ls on it. And life will be good.

No, I don't have $4000. But I do have 6 boys in the house. Six curious boys. And I remember what I used to get up to in my dad's shop when he wasn't home. $800 would buy quite a lot of peace of mind. Not to mention the close calls my own fingers have had... ;)

But the site always says "coming soon" :(

Thanks,

Bill

[Steve Rowe]

...
I do know about safety features you never use. I have a car with airbags but have never been in a serious wreck. I wear a seatbelt but have never had a accident it would have been the saving factor for me. I carry insurance on my house, shop, cars and life. I wear a bullet resistant vest at work (even when it is hot) and haven't been shot.

Added safety for added cost is a standard in many areas. If it is "worth" it is up to the buyer, assuming it never gets used. If you use it then the cost is a non issue.
...
Joe

What an excellent observation. I have a friend who lost four fingers in a tablesaw accident. Needless to say, it was a life changing event for him. I wonder if those who have lost digits on a tablesaw would consider the cost of the Sawstop technology too high?

Each of us have different cost versus benefit thresholds for safety. I believe our individual perceptions of the probability of an accident and the consequences (and possibly budget) are the key drivers behind these decisions. These perceptions are often soley based on the way we work in our own shops and not what others do in their own shops. I have seen techniques used on woodworking shows and in other commercially available videos that I would NEVER do because I believe them to be too risky and unsafe.

I don't own a Sawstop and likely never will since I have a slider. I have no regrets on my purchase but, I can say that I would gladly have purchased the Sawstop technology for my saw if it were available. Even though the way I work I don't believe I would ever need it, it would provide defense in depth from a personal protection viewpoint. I also believe that if manufacturers actually made saws with usable guards and provided a video on tablesaw safety with every saw, the accident rate would drop dramatically.

Steve

[Al Willits]

"""""""""""
I don't think SawStop is for everyone....it seems like it is only for the people interested in safety , accuracy, and quality
"""""""""

You didn't just say those of us who don't buy the sawstop are NOT interested in safety, did you?
Al

["Gary Brewer"]

I have been reading this thread with great interest. I was at a demo a few months ago at a woodworkers house in my area for my woodworkers society. Before the demo someone started talking about shop safety. The head of group showed us his hand with a missing finger and talked about how he lost it. Another one in the group chimed in and talked about how he lost his. Several other men in the group talked how they lost tips of fingers. All on a table saw! The hairs on the back of my neck stood up as I remembered all the stuipid things I have done on the table saw. These were mostly middle aged men with responsible jobs, families and a love of wood working who have wood worked for many years. Generally highly experienced people. There were around 35 to 40 people there, no more. If 5 people out of 40 have had a finger lost or shortened that to me seems like a extremely high percentage. Up until then I had never really thought that it would happen to me and didn't realize how dangerous a table saw really is. It hasn't but know I know it really could. Less than two years ago I bought my dream saw after waiting my lifetime to buy one, a unisaw. If I could do it over again I would buy the sawstop. I will eventually get the sawstop when I can afford to do so. I am also protecting my son and grandchildren who I know will eventually inherit my stuff and I couldn't stand the thought of them getting hurt. It is too dangerous not to have one. I do believe that the other saw makers will eventually add the feature so there will eventually be more options. Until then I am being very careful.
Gary

[Loren Hedahl]

I have followed the rationale concerning the safety aspect of the Saw Stop, and completely agree that $4000 is chump change in exchange for any one of my fingers.

I also believe the statistics presented on the number of table saw accidents, and I believe the Saw Stop safety function works great with a weiner.

However, unless I've missed a post, I haven't heard of anyone actually having had a real finger saved by a Saw Stop, yet.

Does it actually work in a "real-life" situation?

Loren

[Brian Penning]

However, unless I've missed a post, I haven't heard of anyone actually having had a real finger saved by a Saw Stop, yet.

Does it actually work in a "real-life" situation?

Loren

Check out the Sawstop website. They have photos and stories there.

[David Wambolt]

It works in real life. On one of the wood working fourms I saw a gentleman who was using an 8" dado set on his Sawstop and something went wrong. All he had was a little knick in his thumb or finger. It does work.

When the first air bags came out in cars, they demanded a premium. At some point in the early 90's, Air Bags were made mandatory for both the driver and front passenger. It's a technology that has evolved since the 80's and they have saved MANY lives. Sawstop is a technology that is just being introduced and it will demand a premium. As more poeple purchase or buy into the technology, the costs will drop. We're likely to see many advancements with this particular technology, but until it's adopted into several different product lines, the price won't be cheap.

I'm a technology guy and I manage a Fortune 500 data center in California. I remember during 2001 putting in a requisition for a single server and two disk arrays that cost my organization $240k for that Sun Microsystems hardware. In the scope of things at the time, that really wasn't all that much money. The same performance and storage can be obtained today for roughly $9,000 or LESS! As technology moves forward, the prices will fall. My budget went from over $1,500,000 for server hardware to roughly $300,000 for the year now. I'm not struggling as a manager to get by, the prices have simply dropped considerably while performance has increased considerably. Things that were hard and expensive got easier and cheaper. Humans are still the ones doing the design, we're constantly evolving and using new technologies available to us to create even newer technologies. Now I'm not sure, but if I can recall a conversation from 2000 and a conversation in 2007, people don't seem all that much smarter. It's the tools and the younger generations that will continue driving us foward.

When I saw the Sawstop video a couple of years ago, all of us 'geeks' at work huddled around and thought it was fake. I even remember saying "that has to be fake". Well two years later I was in the market and what I thought was fake, turned out to be a reality. Additionally it wasn't until reading on the fourms that I saw Sawstop referenced. I didn't put two and two together and figured Sawstop had to cost $6-8k. When I found out it was about $4,000, I really considered buying it. I don't know, but I guess I just understand that technology does not come cheap out of the gate. The price will drop as they get revenue from other products. If it doesn't, then people can start saying they are gouging or over pricing their products. Until that time, understand they are a one trick pony, for now. If they don't make enough revenue to be profitable (I don't know if they are even turning a profit at the company level), they will not surrive. They could be operating off of private investor funds while they continue developing other products. Again, I don't know their finanicals, but if they are already turning a profit with a single product this soon, I'd be surprised. Their pricing is such that they are just trying to make money, but for any person who questions that dollar amount I have to ask, have you ever designed something thats the first of it's kind that has a complex operating system? The people at Sawstop didn't wake up one morning with a CAD design of their new saw, or circuit designs for their brake system. Let alone molds for their cast iron trunions or employees capable of doing precision assembly and adjustments. It took a long time to design, and then test this tool before it came to market. Based on the feedback received by people who actually own the saw, it's pretty much all positive. They got it right, the first time. Then the company backs up the saw with great customer service which costs them additional revenue and people still complain. At least they are doing most things right. Was it cool for Sawstop to try and make it law that table saws include this technology? No. But hey, someone out there mandated air bags and guess what, anyone who has bought a 1994 or newer car has paid for them whether you wanted them, or needed them.

I don't believe the debate is one that the Sawstop saw cuts wood better. The Sawstop is the safest cabinet saw available anywhere to my knowledge. That technology may get kids into wood shop and later on, who knows. Drillstop? Bandstop? Jointerstop? The options out there could make it so that working with equipment is safer from start to finish, not just at one step in the process. How about that day you're just sawing away and a co-worker trips and bumps into you? You can be as safe as you want, but you cannot plan for accidents. Just like driving down the road, you can be a precision race driver and then some idiot talking on the cell phone blows the light and hits you. Does that make you an idiot or a bad driver? No. Accidents do happen.

Ladies and gentleman, you're looking at the first of its kind. Let the early adopters enjoy their moment, because in 10 years, I'm betting this technology or something similar will be the standard in most consumer level equipment that can easily hurt you.. It all has to start somewhere. Heck one day we might be cutting wood with light sabers for all we know, or working in virtual reality and then a multifunctional machine does all the work with the operator sitting back drinking an ice cold beer. Time will tell, but the price will fall if Sawstop stays in business which I think they will. I wish them great success, because the idea alone is rather simple, but they delivered it to the market first before any of the big boys, and I think that says something about the new kid on the block. They are not perfect, but they are trying.

[Matt Campbell]

David,
That was a very well-stated post. I agree with many of your points about Gass and inventing something.

And I will definitely be saving up for the next year to purchase the SawStop. Hopefully, by the time I have the money saved, the price will be reduced, or the contractor version will be available.

[Peter Melanson]

I recently bought my Sawstop last week. I do agree the price is steeper than what I preffered and Mr. Gass's approach may not have been the best tactically. There are 2 thing I really considered when buying my first "real" table saw having not used one for many,many years. I was ready to purchase a new Steel City Tools Table saw comaparable in HP and from what I have investigagted the quality for a great price with the rebates and sales over Christmas. Then I started thinking about the safety factor especially since I need my fingers for my job. I had a contractor friend go with me to look at the Steel city and he thought they were great. I also noticed him looking a the SS "very hard". The next week I was in my local WC store and noticed a customer come in with his hand bandaged. I asked one of the employees what happened, he told me that he injured his hand on a table saw but did not lose it. He also mentioned that the guy has been a WW for a long and a judge in town. When I got home I called my contractor buddy and told him I was thinking about the SS and was I crazy, since I over analyze things, and is it worth the extra cash. He said absolutely, he also told me he was look for a new saw and he was getting the SS in the near future. He also told me that he has been doing this for 20 years and does know anyone in the "field" that hasn't had an accident, they may not have lost a finger but there was an injury, and statistically the more you use a table saw the greater the odds of something happening (even if you are the safest person in the world). Check mark number one. So of course I research the SS inside and out for quality since I am a big believer in buying quality equipment. I have found many articles that have recently been published rating the SS exceptionally good which was a plus for me. In talking with my contractor friend again he basically said that the difference between the top 5 - 10 saws out there is very minor and they will all do a great job.
So my second consideration the price: In my mind the safety factor and quality are worth the price for "my peace of mind" (not to mention my wife's) and the quality of what I am getting the SS was the one for me. Yes I did have to wait 2 more months to save the money and I am very happy I waited and bought the SS. Just my thoughts!!!

[Peter Melanson]

OH Well, you da man

[Rich Person]

No regrets here:

http://www.person.smugmug.com/photos/105489729-S.jpg

My only issue was that it took me awhile to notice that the blade was not alligned to the top within specs. It wasn't even close (about 1 mm difference from front to back of blade). Once I followed the top allignment procedure it worked great. I should mention that I bought mine as a discounted returned unit.

[Eric Wong]

I've been following the SawStop story since I first heard about it several years ago. Like many, I was very surprised that the major manufacturers would not/could not work with the technology. When I heard he started his own company to produce this saw, I started saving my money. Hopefully, I will be able to purchase one before I have a careless day in the shop. (Ironically, just knowing I'm saving for this saw keeps my attention focused while working at my table saw. So you could say that just being aware of the SawStop is providing a little extra safety!)

E

[Greg Deakins]

I use the most dangerous TS in the world. Actually, I rarely use it, it is so dangerous. I would say I am waiting for somebody to offer to sell their SS, but that doesn't seem like it will happen. It seems to be a very well built machine.

There is a danger I believe of getting too comfortable with the safety features, and getting careless however. With a standard saw, one is very careful, or one loses digits. If operated properly, a table saw will never take off a finger, but the safety features of the SS make that less likely, in the event of carelessness.

When I think about the deductible, and the missed work, and the other factors of an injury, including the mental anguish, I'd say a grand or two more is petty, especially if I were to consider the feeling after a near miss, as opposed to a swift ride to the ER.

The argument over compensation for the inventor of this technologyI believe is laughable, he gets what he gets. The world is filled with people getting too much for too little, and this is a minute example, not even an issue for me, especially if it offers the peace of mind this does.

I will save for this saw, and every time I switch it on, will smile. Plus, as I noted in the beginning, this saw is a quality machine, what makes doubters think it wont hold value? In a bizarre attempt to correlate two completely different worlds, I offer an example of a well built collectable car, as opposed to an inferior one from the same era?
I still find unisaws from the early eighties for sale at over a grand.

Here is one issue I will add, not so favorable. Since this is new technology, has anyone heard of "false alarms" with this machine, where it drops without making contact, causing the need for immediate replacement of the brake and damaged blade? I would hate to have a few drops of sweat, or moisture in a wet material, or a short somewhere, or something cause a malfunction, and a costly replacement over nothing.

[Kurt Forbes]

There really are very few car accidents that were not avoidable. Just like most Wood working "accidents" are also avoidable. Most people get hurt because they become complacent and stop being careful. Both with driving and woodworking. You forget to inspect the tool properly or get in a hurry and forget safe practices. Calling it an accident makes us all feel better. We call things accidents to absolve ourselves of our responsibilities.

[jim gossage]

There really are very few car accidents that were not avoidable. Just like most Wood working "accidents" are also avoidable. Most people get hurt because they become complacent and stop being careful. Both with driving and woodworking. You forget to inspect the tool properly or get in a hurry and forget safe practices. Calling it an accident makes us all feel better. We call things accidents to absolve ourselves of our responsibilities.

certainly, many table saw accidents are due to complacency, and a smaller fraction to freak accidents. however, i suspect that a number of accidents occur to people who are trying to be careful, and have even done appropriate reading on table saw safety, but do not yet have the experience to know that "if you change the set-up or the wood, or etc slightly, you run a risk of an accident." i am a much safer woodworker than i used to be because i have learned from mistakes here and there - fortunately, none of those mistakes took more than a bandaid to fix!

[Glen Gunderson]

There really are very few car accidents that were not avoidable. Just like most Wood working "accidents" are also avoidable. Most people get hurt because they become complacent and stop being careful. Both with driving and woodworking. You forget to inspect the tool properly or get in a hurry and forget safe practices. Calling it an accident makes us all feel better. We call things accidents to absolve ourselves of our responsibilities.


However, accidents (perhaps mistakes is a better word) do happen and we are only human. We've all made mistakes in the past, and the point of safety devices such as the Sawstop is to limit the damage from such mistakes. Just as we should use safety devices such as airbags and seatbelts for our cars, so too should we, I believe, use the safety features for a our table saws. For many who have grown up working or prefer to work without a table saw guard, I think a Sawstop is a fantastic choice.

Personally, I just use a splitter/guard and a lot of caution, and hopefully I'll come out okay, but I would never look down on somebody for wanting to go beyond that level for an even greater degree of safety. It's their hands and their pocketbook. There's nothing wrong with debating the merits of the saw, but when people insist on making smug and condescending comments (this happens on both sides of the debate) the whole dialogue becomes kind of pointless and has moved away from the the pros and cons of the saw into a plain old argument.

[Eric Wong]

There really are very few car accidents that were not avoidable. Just like most Wood working "accidents" are also avoidable. Most people get hurt because they become complacent and stop being careful. Both with driving and woodworking. You forget to inspect the tool properly or get in a hurry and forget safe practices. Calling it an accident makes us all feel better. We call things accidents to absolve ourselves of our responsibilities.

OK, I'm taking the semantics bait here (I'm sure I'll regret it):eek:

Just because something is "avoidable" with extra care does not mean it is not an accident, nor does calling it an accident necessarily mean that someone is shirking responsibility.

Here is the definition (taken from dictionary.com)
Accident: "an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally".

[Al Willits]

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Does that mean you are immune to mistakes on your woodworking projects too? Never been in a car accident? Never slip and fall on ice? I think if one is smart enough all of these are avoidable.
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Not sure a car accident is compatible with TS use, you can drive well enough to avoid most accidents, but getting plowed into at a stop light is somebodies else's screw up that happens to you.
For the most part, you are the only one in TS use.

I do think to many use the term accident to freely, I'd rather call them error's in judgement.
Most errors have someone to blame.

Al.......who seems to get blamed quite often.....:D