If You Could Time Travel . . .

[Belinda Barfield]

I have been avidly following Jonathan Spafford's post "What did the Ancient's Use?". Very interesting discussion which led me to wonder about something. Not wanting to hijack Jonathan's thread, I am posing the question here.

If you could travel back in time to observe wood workers, what time period would you choose, and why? Regardless of the time period I think we would all be surprised at the little tricks of the trade that have been lost. We have each other to turn to here on the Creek, but if a worker was out there in forest all alone lo many years ago he had to answer his own questions - poor guy (or gal). So, when stumped did he just put down his tools and go plow a field until inspiration struck?

With regards to quality standards, do you think functionality outweighed beauty? I know there were some beautiful peices constructed, but there had to be lots of folks who needed a new milking stool - and stat - since the cow just kicked the leg off the old one. :) In that case the tools wouldn't need to produce perfect work, just sturdy pieces.

Interested to your thoughts.

[Mike Henderson]

I would love to be able to go back and work in the workshop of any famous cabinetmaker - example: John Townsend. I'd love to see how the design of some of the furniture developed over time. What caused them to design what they did? It'd be interesting to see the tools and techniques used, but that would be secondary to my interest in the design process.

For your second question, I don't think there's any question that functional things accounted for a lot of the business of cabinetmakers. For those cabinetmakers whose account books have survived, we see a lot of caskets in the book. In the country, I'm sure that farm equipment was a big part of their business.

There's also no question that the cabinetmakers only did what they had to - many surfaces that would not be seen are rough. They were business people and labor was expensive - the US in that time did not have a labor surplus like England did.

Mike

[Brian Kent]

I think that it was Mike writing last year about how the changes in mobility affected changes in construction. Did more frequent moves lead people to built sturdier furniture that could handle a move on a cart, or would they tend to build throw-away furniture that did not have to be moved often?

My time machine would be one that let me see development of techniques and changes over time.

If I could afford a top quality LN time machine, I would love to see Joseph's shop in Nazareth. My assumptions are that Jesus' dad would be an ordinary worker with strong integrity. What did he use and how did he run the family business?

In the same era of history, I would love to see what King Herod's craftsmen would do on the other end of the socio-economic spectrum. The best tools and unlimited numbers of workers. In stone working you could see the differences in stone buildings built under herod. Herodian stone workers left an eight inch decorative trim on twenty foot long building stones - a luxury nobody else could have afforded.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I personally would be somewhat flexible and would thoroughly enjoy any period from William & Mary furniture up throught the end of the Federal Period and into the Neo-Classical. Put another way, stuff built before the industrial revolution made furniture a factory/industrial operation. This is roughly from 1680-1830. During this time designs and some construction techniques changed several times (almost continuously), but work was mostly in the bespoke craft shop mode and few makers or shops had the luxury of building their wares on spec and then waiting to sell it.

The level of craftsmanship and design sophistication varied over the full spectrum from rough cobbled together work to those pieces we view today as art. With some exceptions, rural makers were rarely full time furnituremakers and made their income from a mixture of furniture making, farming, repair of furniture and farm implements, casketmaking, and almost anything else which could produce either cash or goods to barter. Remember that in Colonial and early Federal America there was always a shortage of coin and paper money and that made barter extremely important. The surviving account books of most makers bear this out. In the larger cities furniture was made in specialist shops by full timers. There were often several trades involved in producing a single piece and most shops subcontracted at least part of their work. Veneering, carving, gilding, upholstery, and most commonly, turning, were the common ones. Even within a shop of perhaps 5-6 journeymen there were specialists who had skills different than their peers and work was often assigned by the master to the person who could produce the best work and do it efficiently.

As for quality of the work done, what we see mostly today are the well built pieces which also are faily well designed. Most of the "klunkers" either broke too seriously to be repaired well or were discarded by subsequent generations. While I have no factual basis upon which to base numbers or percentages, I'd wager that what exists today in both museum and private collections is less than 5% of the furniture made and I might be seriously overestimating.

[Steve Wargo]

I'd be content with being a fly on the wall in the shop of the John Seymour.

[Jonathon Spafford]

If I could afford a top quality LN time machine, I would love to see Joseph's shop in Nazareth. My assumptions are that Jesus' dad would be an ordinary worker with strong integrity. What did he use and how did he run the family business?
That would definitely be a fun shop to go visit!!

I think I would like to visit some shops from late Rome through the middle ages and see their tools. I imagine that most of the furniture that wasn't built for royalty was almost exclusively utilitarian. Most of the people were poor and needed to spend most of their money on food and if something didn't have any value then it wasn't needed.

Some of the things we do today rely so much on precision that it would be hard to imagine life without them. I can't imagine life withough a drill press to drill straight holes; or what about mills for milling lumber... or was that all done with axes and wedges; Or even a bottle of CA glue for those minor repairs... I would love to see how they improvised. I am sure that a lot of the stuff they did relied on knowing geometry and having good eyes. Now days we rely on the machines and jigs to do things for us... back then they wouldn't have had much of that!

Fun topic!!!

[Belinda Barfield]

In stone working you could see the differences in stone buildings built under herod. Herodian stone workers left an eight inch decorative trim on twenty foot long building stones - a luxury nobody else could have afforded.

Along those lines, I read somewhere once that when King Edward I was building Stirling (hope I have that right) he had the latest and best earth moving equipment . . . 1500 men with shovels.

Thanks for all the responses, this is really interesting to me, and I hope for all of you as well.

[Ryan Cathey]

Peter the Great,one of the czars(or last, can't remember)of Russia. He was a woodworker and did some wonderful work. Pretty cool story actually, he traveled out of Russia and under a pseudonym became an apprentice to a shipbuilder. I watched a show on the history channel about him and it showed some carving he did that still had his initials on it. BTW this guy was giant; 6' 8" and could straigten a horse shoe!!

-Ryan C.

[Belinda Barfield]

BTW this guy was giant; 6' 8" and could straigten a horse shoe!!

-Ryan C.

Now, see, I learn something new every day! So far Ryan you have my vote for something I'd like to see up close and personal. I've heard of people who could straighten a horseshoe, but ain't never seen one.:D

[Belinda Barfield]

Was hoping to get a few more responses to this post. I know there have to be some wannabe time travelers out there. So, I'm gonna bump it and see if I get any bites. Maybe it just isn't that interesting. :o

[James Mittlefehldt]

Problem I have is there are likely a hundred places I would like to go.

For instance would like to see some Oriental types doing stuff a couple a hundred years ago, would love to spend a day or ten in the Dominy workshop in Long Island circa 1800, or perhaps Duncan Phyfe's shop, when he was active.

I would also love to see the local country craftsmen here, ie South Western Ontario, many of which were doubtless sort of like Norm Abrams, skilled carpenters who made basic furniture, like dish dressers, and kitchen work tables. Then there is England, Scotland, France, yea I think preferably late eighteenth, early nineteenth century, and then travel a lot within that era.

[Wendell Wilkerson]

Do we get bring tools back with us in this hypothetical adventure? Just kidding.
I would love to study marquetry and inlay from a French master like Andre Charles Boulle. I don't know much about the luminaries of the Federal Period but I'd love to go to Baltimore to learn how to make demi lume card table from a master cabinet maker.

Wendell

[Greg Cole]

"I am sure that a lot of the stuff they did relied on knowing geometry and having good eyes. Now days we rely on the machines and jigs to do things for us... back then they wouldn't have had much of that!"

Reminds me of watching a couple of my great Uncles building a timber frame barn when I was a child. Not one level, transit or any tools was used for "straight-plumb-level". These 2 old men (in their 70's at the time)were old school, born & raised in Finland and this was the family trade. Absolutely everything was "eyeballed" and joinery was all hand done, timbers were raised with ropes and a couple of pulleys. They hand cut logs even though there were chainsaws in the back of the trucks etc etc....

Sorry this isn't quite relevant, but worthy of telling as it is a fond memory and somewhat charted my path to Neader ways as I evolved into a WW'er....

Greg

[Belinda Barfield]

Very relevant Greg, and a great reply. A stroll down Memory Lane is very much a form of time travel.

What craftsmen they must have been! I can understand why that would have influenced you.

Thanks for your post. :)

[Belinda Barfield]

Do we get bring tools back with us in this hypothetical adventure?

Wendell

Why not? After all, it is your hypothetical adventure so I guess you can hypotheically do pretty much what you want.:)

[Brian Kent]

I'd go back to the good old days of when I began woodworking in the 21st century and watch Wenzloff & Sons make saws in Oregon, see Sam Maloof make rocking chairs in California, be awestruck at Frank Klausz doing dovetails at wodworking shows.

Then I would watch the handtool revival on a dozen retail sites on the internet. Then i would sit at my desk, type in questions and answers, and have woodworkers from all over the world respond.


Which reminds me… The other day I was in an antigue store and found this broken down old rocker. When I wiped off the dirt, it turned out to be Jimi Hendrix.

[Bob Childress]

I think I would enjoy going back and talking to carpenters in the 11th or 12th century. They were building huge cathedrals from stone, but still a lot of intricate rafter/beam work. How did they decide how to do it? Make a mistake and you crush 100 people! What calculations did they use?

I can research it in books, but no substitute for being on the ground with the workers while it happened! :)

[Glenn Clabo]

I would go back to when I was young (60's) and pay attention to all those old guys who tried to teach me how to do these things right. How to create work that someone will look back on what was done and say..."that was done by someone who knew what what they were doing".

[James Carmichael]

I think Glen wins first prize for best use of the time machine.

Of course, once there (when I was young), no way I'd come back:-)

[Belinda Barfield]

I would go back to when I was young (60's) and pay attention to all those old guys who tried to teach me how to do these things right. How to create work that someone will look back on what was done and say..."that was done by someone who knew what what they were doing".

Amen to that one Glenn! I think best use of time travel would be to undo some of my worst mistakes. I'd spend more time absorbing the wisdom of my grandmother before she developed Alzheimer's, and more time helping my grandpa feed the livestock at the end of the day. Not that any of this has anything to do with woodworking, but it got me thinking!

My greatgrandfather was a woodworker, but I never had the chance to know him. I think I would probably start out with him.

Thanks to all for your great responses!

[John Timberlake]

I would love to see Grinling Gibbons at work. All the work he (or his staff) did at St. Paul's in London and at Windsor Castle are just fantastic. Would love to see the tools they used, how they sharpened them, and the techniques to get lace carved in wood that you can see through. Not to mention the animals, people, fruit, etc.

[Belinda Barfield]

I would love to see Grinling Gibbons at work. All the work he (or his staff) did at St. Paul's in London and at Windsor Castle are just fantastic. Would love to see the tools they used, how they sharpened them, and the techniques to get lace carved in wood that you can see through. Not to mention the animals, people, fruit, etc.

John,

Could you perhaps post a pic showing his work, or refer me to the best website to view? I am very interested in castle architecture and would like to see some of the really good woodwork. I am fairly familiar with the stone portions - but hadn't thought about decorative wood as I guess I assumed it hadn't survived.

Thans!:)

[Ted Miller]

Ok I am greedy, I would go forward in time to next saturday at 7:59pm, get the winning lottery numbers then come back to today. Buy up $100.00 worth of those numbers, win the lottery on saturday, buy all my freinds homes free and clear then have the ultimate shop with tools I have always wanted...

[Belinda Barfield]

I would go forward in time

Verrry Interesting! I had not thought of traveling forward to see what the future might hold. Now for the deep stuff. Can you travel to somewhere/thing/time that hasn't happened yet? Does everything exist all at once?

If you travel in time, either forward or backward, don't you have to choose someone to "inhabit"? If not, you would view multiple realities all occuring at once. How would you differentiate one from another in order to observe?

Just aksin":confused: .

[John Timberlake]

John,

Could you perhaps post a pic showing his work, or refer me to the best website to view? I am very interested in castle architecture and would like to see some of the really good woodwork. I am fairly familiar with the stone portions - but hadn't thought about decorative wood as I guess I assumed it hadn't survived.

Thans!:)

I first learned of Grinling Gibbons when I found a book at the University of Florida architecture library devoted to him, but I do not have a copy. I just did a search in Google using his name and came up with a number hits including http://www.explore-stpauls.net/oct03/textMM/GrinlingGibbonsN.htm which talks about St. Pauls Cathedral in London.

[Belinda Barfield]

Thanks John,

I will check it out tonight. Thanks for doing the search also. I could have taken the time but thought you might know some sites off the top of your head. Hope I didn't hold you up too much during your busy day!

[Ted Miller]

Belinda, Good point, in my mind I figured time travel means forward or reverse, I grew up in..............the Twilight Zone...

[James Owen]

John,

Could you perhaps post a pic showing his work, or refer me to the best website to view? I am very interested in castle architecture and would like to see some of the really good woodwork. I am fairly familiar with the stone portions - but hadn't thought about decorative wood as I guess I assumed it hadn't survived.

Thans!:)

Belinda,

Here are a couple of books on Grinling Gibbons that you may find interesting or useful; lots of illustrations of work attributed to him:

Grinling Gibbons and the Art of Carving

Grinling Gibbons and the English Woodcarving Tradition

The Work of Grinling Gibbons

Grinling Gibbons, His Work as a Carver

I have the first two: excellent books; the other two look very interesting. Available through Amazon.

[Belinda Barfield]

James,

Thanks for the info. Things are crazy here for us until after St. Patrick's Day. I know that sounds ridiculous but it is the case. As soon as possible I'll take a look at the first two books you recommended. Again, thanks so much. I'm really trying to broaden my horizons.

I have thoroughly enjoyed all the responses to "time travel" as well. You guys really make me think!

[Curt Harms]

Do we get bring tools back with us in this hypothetical adventure? Just kidding.....


Wendell

Can You imagine taking a ShopBot in time (with a generator of course:) back to say the middle ages?. The sorcerers of the day would have to get another job:D

Curt

[Belinda Barfield]

True, the sorcerers would have to get another job. However, it is possible that you would be hanged as a witch (warlock in your case). ;)

[Mike Henderson]

Verrry Interesting! I had not thought of traveling forward to see what the future might hold. Now for the deep stuff. Can you travel to somewhere/thing/time that hasn't happened yet? Does everything exist all at once?
If you could travel forward in time, you would not be able to return to this time unless your memory was wiped of all knowledge of the future. There's a conflict with any knowledge of the future. It the future is known, really known, then free will is lost. If the future is known, you are then living a script, without the ability to freely choose. You may think you are choosing, but if the future is known, you aren't making a free choice because your choice was forced in order to match up with the known future.

"Any knowledge of the future denies free will."

Mike

[Belinda Barfield]

ost. If the future is known, you are then living a script, without the ability to freely choose. You may think you are choosing, but if the future is known, you aren't making a free choice because your choice was forced in order to match up with the known future.

"Any knowledge of the future denies free will."

Mike

I agree to a certain extent; however, if I know the future, and have the opportunity and ability to change the script, isn't that free choice as well? If it hasn't happened yet is my choice forced to match up with the unknown future? You argue for an absolute, pre ordained future with no alternative paths. Knowledge of the future allows free will moreso than knowledge of the past. We cannot change what has been, only what is to be.

[Mike Henderson]

I agree to a certain extent; however, if I know the future, and have the opportunity and ability to change the script, isn't that free choice as well? If it hasn't happened yet is my choice forced to match up with the unknown future? You argue for an absolute, pre ordained future with no alternative paths. Knowledge of the future allows free will moreso than knowledge of the past. We cannot change what has been, only what is to be.
If there's only one future and someone has knowledge of that future, then there's no free will.

If you can make a choice that is not part of that future, then the future is not known. But if the future is known and can't be changed, then you don't have a choice - you're living a script. It's pretty cut and dried logic.

That's why I don't believe that the future can be known - because I believe in free will.

Mike

[James Brothers]

I’ve got to agree with Brian Kent, Joseph's shop would defiantly be one place that I would like to see. But personally I think I would go back a lot farther than that and see the true master builder at work.
The second that I saw this post I was reminded of something I read just the other morning.

I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.

Who better to see at work then the one that created me and gave me my skills?
Ex 31:3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts

It’s to bad though, that we can’t go back. Being that we cant I thing a better question to ask would be, were would you like to see yourself in the futre. I would like to know that when I am old and in the last moments of my life that I could look back with joy. And know that I used the skills that God has given me to serve and honor Him. And then to look forward with even greater joy and anticipation.
I like knowing that some day I will be able to talk shop with Jesus’ true father.

[John Schreiber]

The time or place doesn't matter much to me.

I would like to watch craftsmen using their well honed experience to do quality work. I love to watch people who know how to work efficiently without any loss of quality. Especially to watch people who know the solutions to problems they have faced before and are not afraid to figure out new solutions to the problems before them.

Skilled craftsmen and craftswomen like this used to be everywhere. I think there are still people like this in trades ranging from plumbing to brain surgery. But I think that there is less and less of it all the time. The world has become so complex that in most areas of endeavor we are reduced to following a procedure written by someone else or to replacing parts in hope solving the problem.

That's one of the things I like about wood working. It can be simple enough that a single person can complete all aspects of a project and make something useful and beautiful. As part of the Creek, I get to watch fine craftspeople make fine things. I am traveling through time and space and learning from the many here.

[Belinda Barfield]

I would like to know that when I am old and in the last moments of my life that I could look back with joy. And know that I used the skills that God has given me to serve and honor Him.

Thanks for your post James. I have always love the following quote from Erma Bombeck.

"When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, "I used everything you gave me".

Just think where we would be today if everyone felt this way.

[Belinda Barfield]

Skilled craftsmen and craftswomen like this used to be everywhere. I think there are still people like this in trades ranging from plumbing to brain surgery. But I think that there is less and less of it all the time. The world has become so complex that in most areas of endeavor we are reduced to following a procedure written by someone else or to replacing parts in hope solving the problem.

I agree wholeheartedly John. I wish I could be more of a free thinker and problem solver. It it comes with instructions, I follow them to the letter - I rarely try to figure out how to put something together. I find myself turning to the Net - this forum being a prime example -more and more for answers and solutions. I do love having the capability but feel in may ways our children will suffer from easy access to "everything". I meet so many people who lack simple survival skills and knowledge. I can't help but think if there is a catastrophe of some sort they will be the first to go.

[Curt Harms]

True, the sorcerers would have to get another job. However, it is possible that you would be hanged as a witch (warlock in your case). ;)

I guess it'd be smart to take some other 21st century goodies along too, huh?:D I wonder what the useful load of a time machine is?:)

Curt

[Belinda Barfield]

I wonder what the useful load of a time machine is?:)

Curt

I have absolutely no idea. Anyone out there want to speculate?:confused:

[John Schreiber]

The above discussion of CNC machines and sorcerers made me search for this quote from Arthur C. Clark.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Meaning that we treat things which we don't understand as though they are magic. When people who don't understand computers see something go wrong it doesn't occur to them that there is a reason for it, it is just part of the mystery of computers. As technology the technology all around us has gotten so complex and our scientific literacy has not kept pace, people have lost their relationship with or or sense of control in world.

Around the world, we are more than ever prone to be victims of modern sorcerers who tell us things which makes no sense, but appeal to our hopes and dreams.

[Belinda Barfield]

You are absolutely right from my perspective. I have no idea how all of this works - meaning this forum, the Net., etc. I am a victim of sorcerers who tell me things that appeal to my hopes and dreams. I wish I had a better understanding of the things that make my life easier. I don't, and instead I depend on those who say they do. Such is the path to servitude. Prime example - the Dark Ages. Reading was outlawed for the common man/woman. Sorcerers/Priests controlled all knowledge. "Technology" was the domain of those who had the knowledge.

We are in a different "Dark Age" today. So many people are digesting only what they are fed - whether by Internet, or TV, etc., they never think for themselves, as you said victims of the sorcerers of today.

[Frank Chaffee]

Fascinating thread Belinda…
And John Schreiber, I appreciate your observation of the powers of modern sorcerers. Alongside Clarke’s observation, is Crichton’s concept of “standing on the shoulders of giants”.

For my own part, I would travel back in time to work with Japanese carpenters who laid out curved lines on timbers with twisted ink string cords, and joined wooden members in complex ways that do not require metal fasteners.

[Belinda Barfield]

Fascinating thread Belinda…
And John Schreiber, I appreciate your observation of the powers of modern sorcerers. Alongside Clarke’s observation, is Crichton’s concept of “standing on the shoulders of giants”.

For my own part, I would travel back in time to work with Japanese carpenters who laid out curved lines on timbers with twisted ink string cords, and joined wooden members in complex ways that do not require metal fasteners.

Thank you Frank. I am not familiar with the type of work you reference. Can you point me in the direction of learning more about it?

[Martin Shupe]

Well, I've always thought it would be neat to born around 1800 and go west with the mountain men. (Kind of like Kevin Costner in Dances with Wolves, but in an earlier time period.) Of course, I would get all my shots to nasty things like smallpox before I went. I could witness the exploration of the west until around 1835 or so, then travel back east and live out my life visting all the Shaker woodshops and soaking up their skills, techniques, and designs.

[Belinda Barfield]

Good point Martin! Get those shots up to date. If we can carry items with us it might be a good idea to take along some antibiotics, and maybe some water purification tablets. There is a great series of books by Diana Gabaldon - yeah, pretty much chick books - about time travel. In the first the main character steps into a circle of standing stones in Scotland mid 1950's I think (it has been a while since I read the series). She is transported to early 18th century Scotland. The author did a great job with historical research so aside from a little mushy romance the series is pretty interesting. There is another character that is initially known in the series as a witch, and is burned at the stake. Just before she is burned she confesses that she is a time traveler and shows her vaccination scar as proof to the main character. So, we're back to what will get you classified as a sorcerer! The thing I really liked about the series from a romance novel aspect is that she didn't "pretty things up" or skip the basic fact that women were mostly unwashed, with hairy armpits, and almost everyone had rotten teeth and bad breath! There were folks walking around everywhere with draining pustules and open sores. Life was basically pretty nasty for the common man. And no, "historical" romance novels are not my only source of information - but they are entertaining reading when I want my mind to slow down so I can sleep!:D