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Craig Hogarth
02-27-2007, 1:04 PM
I've been perusing copyright.gov, but it's a lot of information. Hopefully someone can offer some insight.

Are we allowed to use corporate logos without written permission? What if a customer comes in who sells Fords and wants a logo on his business card holder?

Also, I see a lot of logos for sale on Ebay. Are these illegal for us to have?

Lee DeRaud
02-27-2007, 2:06 PM
I've been perusing copyright.gov, but it's a lot of information. Hopefully someone can offer some insight.

Are we allowed to use corporate logos without written permission? What if a customer comes in who sells Fords and wants a logo on his business card holder?

Also, I see a lot of logos for sale on Ebay. Are these illegal for us to have?I don't really have answers to those questions except to note that corporate logos don't really fall under copyright laws: they're covered by trademark law, which is definitely not the same thing.

Phyllis Meyer
02-27-2007, 2:16 PM
Hi Craig,

We have lasered many items for the local car dealerships in our area. When they provide me with the Chevy logo, Ford...I go ahead and laser that logo on anything they want! I would not sell those products at the local craft show or on line, only to the dealership because I assume they have permission to use the logo. Being from Wisconsin, I would not laser a Green Bay Packer logo on anything and sell it! They are watching!

I don't have "written permission" to use the American Cancer Society Logo, but I have been provided with the logo from the local chapter to laser it on products that they want. Of course I will not personally sell any of these products. There is such a fine line, and so much to consider! Is there a certain copyright, product, item you are specifically asking about? Check your personal messages!

Have a great day!
Phyllis

Mike Hood
02-27-2007, 2:19 PM
I don't really have answers to those questions except to note that corporate logos don't really fall under copyright laws: they're covered by trademark law, which is definitely not the same thing.

I've always been told that it is the responsibility of the END user to be within corporate trademark policy.

If you run a sign shop and a guy walks in and says he works for Boeing and wants an engraved plaque for a co-worker, you could legally do that (assuming you had the logo), BUT I know the Boeing VERY closely watches (and prohibits) the use of the Boeing logo (I work there).

So... although you'd be covered your customer may not be. (and I do know that corporate logos ARE protected under bot Copyright AND Trademark Laws)... they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Joe Pelonio
02-27-2007, 2:26 PM
Being in the sign business I do corporate logos all the time. While the trademark law requires written permission to duplicate their logos, selling signs or other items to the same company is a bit different. When I get an order by fax or e-mail I have written permision since I can prove that one of their people asked for it, so it's not an issue. When I do a banner for a non-profit where the corporation is a sponsor, they pass along the artwork to me which came from the corporation, so while it doesn't meet the letter of the law it's still not likely to be a problem. Just keep docuentation on who ordered these things, and don't worry too much because it's unlikely that Ford will be unhappy with you because you made Ford logo keychains for a Ford dealer.

What you cannot do and will be sued for is using a logo to produce products that you are selling to the general public, in fact you really are in violation if you were to engrave a coca cola logo on a mirror for your own family room. Not that you'd be likely to get caught and sued fo that, but it is still illegal.
Companies will seek out and sue people who make unlicensed products and sell them on the internet or at swap meets and crafts shows.

Craig Hogarth
02-27-2007, 2:32 PM
I've always been told that it is the responsibility of the END user to be within corporate trademark policy.



Thats what I was thinking, but couldn't be sure. I work for a national bank and never had issues getting business cards and whatnot produced.

By necessity, I've become particularly anal when it comes to legal compliance and I'm just trying to do thing correctly. :o

Lee DeRaud
02-27-2007, 2:37 PM
I've always been told that it is the responsibility of the END user to be within corporate trademark policy.

If you run a sign shop and a guy walks in and says he works for Boeing and wants an engraved plaque for a co-worker, you could legally do that (assuming you had the logo), BUT I know the Boeing VERY closely watches (and prohibits) the use of the Boeing logo (I work there).

So... although you'd be covered your customer may not be. (and I do know that corporate logos ARE protected under bot Copyright AND Trademark Laws)... they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.My bad...I was told that trademark law took precedence for things like logos.

(The not-so-small-world syndrome kicks in: the guy who told me that was an intellectual-property lawyer...for Boeing. Of course that's the same Boeing that gave me a Leatherman clone with the Boeing logo as an award, even though it was technically against company policy for me to have the silly thing on company property because it had a knife blade. Go figure.)

Vicky Orsini
02-27-2007, 2:37 PM
How about if you make one item for display purposes, using a popular corporate logo just for the sake of ease of recognition, with no intent to ever sell the piece?

Joe Pelonio
02-27-2007, 5:42 PM
Epilog uses the Harley Davidson logo for demo purposes all the time.
I wonder if they had to get permission.

Again if no one from the company ever sees it nothing will happen, but you are in fact using their property for monetary gain that way. You are not selling the item but taking advantage of their name to promote your services.

Dave Jones
02-27-2007, 5:43 PM
Be very careful with trademarked logos. Just because a person works for a company or organization doesn't give them permission to have that logo placed on any object.

In many cases the company is fine with it, such as making signs or business cards for a car dealership. But, for example, a Harley Davidson dealer has permission to use the logo on a sign or stickers, but does not have permission to use it on items for sale. If a Harley dealer comes to you and wants glasses or keychains, or whatever made with the logo on it, you better have a signed licensing agreement with Harley Davidson or you will get sued. They will sue you and him. They are very protective of their logo. By placing it on an item that you were paid for, you are just as liable as the person who ordered it from you. Without a license you would be considered a manufacturer of counterfeit products. There's jail time involved in that.

Harley is more of an extreme case than most companies, but many companies have a line drawn between items used for sale or promotion vs signs and business cards.

As for those logo collections you can buy. Most of them explicitly state that you must obtain appropriate permission to use those logos on any products. Even if they don't say that, that responsibility is yours.

As for copyright vs trademark, yes logos are covered by copyright law within the time frame of copyrights, but are also covered by the restrictions of trademark law. Some rights allowed under copyright law, such as "fair use" are overruled by trademark law. Plus even though copyrights have a limited life, trademarks can last forever as long as the appropriate papers are filed at the required times.

Mike Null
02-27-2007, 6:51 PM
Just use common sense and you're not likely to have a problem. It is common practice in the awards business to display products with famous logos and to my knowledge has never caused a problem. But if you have a customer who asks you to make a Packers sign or a Yankees logo on something for their son you are the one with the problem.

Just don't use somebody's logo in reselling products for your own gain.

Dealers and distributors of brands generally have authority to use logos. the same is true of various organizations, local chapters have the authority to use the logos. Boy Scouts, Rotary etc. included.

You are generally free to use government logos, symbols, crests, patches etc. but not the seals of the various branches. It's not likely you'd be challenged but getting permission takes only a phone call.

Mark Koenig
02-27-2007, 7:23 PM
So how do you find out what are "Protected Images" and what graphic images are legal to reproduce for sale to the general public?

Thanks Mark...

Aleta Allen
03-01-2007, 10:12 AM
Can someone tell me where I can go to find out if a name is copyrighted? I have someone wanting me to engrave a movie name and a town name on things they are going to sell. I am guessing the town name is okay, but the movie name? The movie name is also the name of a book and maybe a town. SO where can I go to make sure I am fine on names?

I hate this part of engraving! The paperwork:(

Thanks,

Aleta

Mike Null
03-01-2007, 10:50 AM
Aleta:
Did you try a Google search of the name. Usually there will be some additional info that appears with the results.

Lee DeRaud
03-01-2007, 12:02 PM
Can someone tell me where I can go to find out if a name is copyrighted? I have someone wanting me to engrave a movie name and a town name on things they are going to sell. I am guessing the town name is okay, but the movie name? The movie name is also the name of a book and maybe a town. SO where can I go to make sure I am fine on names?Interesting question. IIRC, movie and book titles can be trademarked (e.g. 'Star Wars') but not copyrighted. Titles get recycled...a lot. (And no, I'm not talking about remakes.)

Mike Hood
03-01-2007, 12:08 PM
I can tell ya in no uncertain terms that Boeing is particularily anal about their copyrights. Intelectual Property (IP) is a HUGE part of our job and is monitored very closely.

I think "technically speaking", you'd be in violation if you used a logo as a display.. but who's to say you were not preparing it for a potential bid to the company itself? I would draw the line at selling anything though. Big stretch between having a representative Harley logo etched on something to demomstrate the laser's capabilities, and kicking out custom Harley plaques at the local flea market. :)

Joe Pelonio
03-01-2007, 12:14 PM
Can someone tell me where I can go to find out if a name is copyrighted? I have someone wanting me to engrave a movie name and a town name on things they are going to sell. I am guessing the town name is okay, but the movie name? The movie name is also the name of a book and maybe a town. SO where can I go to make sure I am fine on names?

I hate this part of engraving! The paperwork:(

Thanks,

Aleta
Chances are that each is copyrighted or trademarked by the company that did each. The movie by the movie company, the book by the publisher. The movie company had to pay for the rights to use the book in the movie. If you are clearly trying to capitalize on the popularity of the book or movie then you'd lose a suit. On the other hand, if it's clearly not conected in any way, then you might be able to convince a judge. For example consider that old radio broadcast "war of the worlds". if you laser something on which there is an old radio, a photo of Orson Welles, and the name, you'd be infringing. If instead you were producing something with cartoon globes
fighting each other and labeled it "war of the worlds" you are just using those words in a completely different manner. Of course since Spielberg has made a movie with that name now too, you'd probably have to fight him in court too.

When in doubt don't do it unless for your own use where it's not likely to get public attention.

Vicky Orsini
03-01-2007, 1:07 PM
Has anyone noticed what Gravograph (New Hermes) has done in their catalogue for samples? Seems like they've taken big star names and changed them a little. For example, they have one desk nameplate with the name "Angelina Goalie" on it. :D Sneaky! I wonder if that would work with a logo ... change it to read "Harvey Davison" instead of "Harley Davidson" and use that for a sample (obviously, you couldn't sell it!). :)

Dave Jones
03-01-2007, 3:25 PM
There is allowance in trademark law for parody, but it has to be different enough to not be confused with the original. Since many Harley logos have the shape of the image trademarked, simply changing a letter wouldn't be enough.

Lee is correct about titles. You can not copyright a word, phrase, or title. You can however trademark those.

You can search for existing trademarks at http://www.uspto.gov but bear in mind that just because you didn't find a trademark doesn't mean it isn't there. Especially in the case of graphical trademarks. It is difficult sometimes to find them since the words within them might not show up anywhere as text of the trademark document. Only within the graphic itself.

There are different types of trademarks. The general text trademark covers that word, name, phrase, etc... no matter how it is printed or represented. A graphical trademark covers only a specific graphic or shape (and anything close to it). Obviously people that manage to get the text based trademarks have huge power over use of that name. If it's only a graphical mark them you can often get around them by using a totally different look.

Trademarks not only cover the exact thing described in the trademark, but anything that could be "reasonably confused" with it. For example, even if your name is Harvey Davidson, you would be sued (and lose) if you tried to start a company called Harvey Davidson Motorcycles. But there'd be no problem opening Harvey Davidson Dry Cleaners. (as long as your logo didn't look like one of theirs) Even then you would have a problem putting that name on a shirt or hat since Harley not only has trademarks for use on motorcycles, but also shirts, hats, mugs, keychains, etc...

Just to confuse everybody further, when it comes to photos and copyrights, you can take a photo and you own the copyright to that photo. But in some cases you still would not have the right to put that photo on a commercial product. For example, take a photo of a pop singer and put it on a t-shirt without their permission and you'll end up in court. Print that same photo in a magazine with a paragraph of text about them and there's nothing they can do to stop you (assuming you didn't violate some other law or rights getting the photo). That's the difference between "commercial" use and "editorial" use.

Mike Hood
03-01-2007, 5:13 PM
...change it to read "Harvey Davison" instead of "Harley Davidson" and use that for a sample (obviously, you couldn't sell it!). :)

I suspect that'd be a hard sell in court... :(

Craig Hogarth
03-01-2007, 5:49 PM
I suspect that'd be a hard sell in court... :(

Especially if the judge owns a harley.

Aleta Allen
03-02-2007, 9:27 AM
Thanks everyone for the great insight. I was wondering about this. I will do a little more research. Thanks for the link. The gentlemen puts the names on his item now, but wants me to start engraving it on. I am guessing he has rights now for what he does, but need to contact him and get specific info and do a little checking on my own. The last thing I want is to violate rules.:(

Thanks again,

Aleta