Contractor vs Cabinet???

[Doug M Jones]

I have been a member for only a short time and currently have a Craftsmen 9" table saw that has direct drive. It is on a stand so I always assumed it was a contractor saw but I think it is really a benchtop on a stand. I think the motor is 3/4 hp. I am looking to purchase a new TS and don't fully understand the difference between contractor and cabinet saw. What is a trunion? Is the biggest difference the dust control issue? Also, some of the saws come in 110v or 220v, if the HP is the same what is the advantage of the higher voltage. As you can see, I'm lost.

The lower price cabinet saws are at the upper end of my budget, just trying to see whether the price difference could buy an additional toy. I searched the threads but I'm not real adept at computer stuff so I may have missed the answer to my question. If so, please post the thread.

Thanks for your help,

[Jim Becker]

The "trunion" is the cast iron (usually) assembly that holds together the arbor and other "business end" parts of the saw. On cabinet saws, the trunion sits on the cabinet and the table is independent. On contractors' style saws, the trunion is suspended from the table top. You also have some so-called "hybrid" saws available today that are a combination of the two original types of American style saws...some of those have the trunions mounted on the cabinet and some of them have the trunions suspended from the table, but the motor is inside the cabinet, unlike a contractors' style saw where it hangs off the back. All of these are belt-driven.

In general, adjustment of the cabinet saw arrangement is easier and these machines are much, much heavier. Most cabinet saws have 3hp (and sometimes 5hp) motors and can power through thick material all day long. But most importantly, the mass they have makes for vibration-free, precise operation.

Contractor's style saws are perfectly functional and can do all the same work that a cabinet saw can do...albeit slower due to lower power. Most are 1.5hp. Alignment can be just as good as a cabinet saw, but is a little more difficult to do. And the motor hanging off the back produces stresses that sometimes make for slightly less accurate cuts when the blade is tilted over for bevel cuts.

IMHO, if you can afford a cabinet saw, buy it. It will be the last saw you will even need to buy. (unless you get an ich for something fancy...LOL) Your next choice should be one of the nice hybrids. Both of these options offer more saw and take up less space (really) than a contractor's style saw. But the latter can be very economical if you need to go that route and still will do nice work.

[Tom Jones III]

I'll start with the easy questions first, 110v vs. 240v for the same HP simply means that you don't have to run wiring that is very thick and have high amp breakers. When you double the voltage then the amps are cut in half.

In general, DC really stinks on most TS at this level. Some of the most recent ones get better with a dust shroud under the blade. Some contractor saws are terrible with the dust simply blowing out the bottom/back.

In very general terms the difference you are going to see between contractor saws and cabinets saws are durability, weight, and sometimes capacity.
* A good cabinet saw should operate for many decades, some contractor saws will not run nearly as long.
* With a big cabinet saw I can throw a full sheet of plywood on top and run it through and never worry about tipping over the saw or bending out the fence, the same is not true on all contractor saws.
* I setup my cabinet saw once (set everything straight, square, etc.) when I bought the saw. It has been a couple years and everything is still dead on. Not all contractor saws will be the same.

In the last couple years contractor saws have really improved in quality. With the advent of hybrid saws and then their absorption by contractor saws, the line between contractor and cabinet saw is getting blurred. Get some hands on time on as many saws as you can.

[glenn bradley]

Jim's got it. You'll find lots of hybrid owners here. We could talk ourselves into stepping up a bit from the contractor saw but due to power restrictions or money, stopped short of the full cabinet saw. It wasn't the few hundred more for the cabinet saw that stopped me. It was the few hundred on top of that for electrical. If you've got 220 or can get it cheaply, I'd go cab-saw any day.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Ditto as to the above.
I add space. My contractor saw was a space hog.

[Doug M Jones]

I'm setting up shop in the basement and there is an existing 220V outlet that the previous owners used for an electric clothes dryer about 8' from where the saw will be.

[Paul Wingert]

I have a Delta's contractor saw that I bought about 13-15 years ago.
If you have a good fence, a contractor's saw is fine for hobby woodworking. The motor is less powerful, but a good ripping blade makes up for that. I've cut 3" thick oak, no problem. Are you really going to rip anything thicker than that on the tablesaw everyday? Probably not.
The contractor's saw serves my needs well enough that I haven't even thought of upgrading it. Naturally, a hybrid or cabinent saw is better, but I just wanted to say that a contractor's saw with a good fence system works great. The fence system is very important. More important than extra HP in the motor, in my opinion.

[Stephen Clem]

Good to hear... my garage already had 200V outlets when I bought the house. What are some of the most economical cabinet saws and what's the general price range?

[James Phillips]

For an economical saw look at the Grizzley G1023SL, or the hybrid model just down from it. I personally have no experience with the Grizzley, but the price would be hard to top.

[Homer Faucett]

As noted above, the main difference between a cabinet saw and a contractor's saw is (1) the trunion is attached to the cabinet on a cabinet saw versus on the table for a contractor's saw, (2) cabinet saws have the motor inside the cabinet rather than hanging out the back, theoretically making for a smaller footprint and better dust collection, and (3) most cabinet saws have a 3 hp motor versus a 1.5 hp motor in the average contractor saw, allowing for faster ripping or easier ripping through heavy stock.

I will disagree with a few sentiments that have been stated here—a cabinet saw will not necessarily outlast a contractor's saw, and a cabinet saw is not inherently more accurate than a contractor's saw. Both a contractor style saw and a cabinet saw use induction motors, and you still see contractor saws from the 50's and 70's offered for sale that operate just fine. You aren't likely to burn up a motor just from old age, especially if you are just a weekend warrior. Just make sure the saw you buy uses an induction motor and not a universal motor (usually direct drive, not belt drive, is used on a universal motor).

Secondly, the accuracy of any saw really has to do with how much time and effort an owner puts into tuning or dialing in the saw when it is put together. I agree that a well tuned cabinet saw will probably vibrate less than a well tuned contractor saw due to the added mass of a typical contractor versus cabinet saw, but I highly doubt that this correlates to any appreciable difference in accuracy in cutting unless the operator is not properly holding the stock to the surface of the saw. Accuracy has to do with how well oriented the blade is to the miter slot and fence, and whether there is any runout in the arbor.

As another point, I would ask you to think about whether the motor hanging out the back of a contractor saw really matters to you. Yes, if you have to wheel your saw back to a small corner after every use, the extra foot may make a difference. However, many people with contractor saws have fixed outfeed tables that take up even more space than the motor hanging out the back, so that argument does not make sense in all circumstances.

Finally, I will agree that, out of the box, most cabinet saws will have better dust collection capabilities than a contractor saw. However, putting a port on the bottom of a contractor saw is pretty easy and inexpensive, and is quite effective. I picked up one for my 36-675 on Amazon for $3.99. Plus, if you don't have a table saw right now, chances are that you don't have a dust collector. The extra coin you save on buying a good contractor saw could net you’re a very nice dust collector, a good jointer, and/or a planer.

I am not saying that a cabinet saw would not be nice, but I think I would compare a good cabinet saw to a good contractor saw in the same way that I would compare a standard family sedan with a European luxury car. The European luxury car is a lot nicer, and you may always want one, but it really won't take you any place that you can't already get to with your family sedan.

Good luck in making a decision, and I would suggest that you focus on features like a good fence system. To me, the fence system is an extremely important aspect of table saw purchase that is often overlooked.

[Pete Brown]

Plan now for more than one 240v circuit in your shop. Most of the good tools are 240v and many of the 120v machines can be converted to 240v. Tools wired for the hire voltage (if the motor supports it) generally start faster and last longer.

Don't get sucked in by the HP ratings on saws. Look at the label on the motor and see how many amps at what voltage. Craftman is the absolute king of complete bung when it comes to listing HP on their saws. Maybe that has changed with the new saws, but I doubt it. Watch out for words like "max rated" or "max developed" if you go looking around in sears.

I agree with other recommendations here that a Grizzly may be a good bet for you. They are not the higest end saws, but they make a good saw for a very good price.

I have a contractor's saw (http://www.irritatedvowel.com/HomeImprovement/FrankenSaw.aspx) that I basically built from parts. I don't plan to keep it forever, but it works well enough for now. It's a million times better than the old stand-mounted table-top craftman I started with.

However, I disagree on the previous poster's comments about the DC being good enough on contractor's saws. Unless you enclose the rear of the saw (which means losing the ability to easily tilt the blade), dust collection on contractor's saws is terrible. I enclosed the back of mine, and I generally find myself staying away from doing any bevel cuts.

Some newer saws come with a blade shroud like the european saws. That is a great way to get decent dust collection. The DeWalt hybrid saw was one of those. I'm sure there are others.

Dust collection is extremely important in all cases. In your case, it is even more so because you are in your basement. Don't buy the saw without buying a dust collector. You need to budget for both at once and purchase them together. If you don't, you will pollute the rest of your house with dust. All dust is hazardous to breath, and some types (MDF, plywood, exotics) is exceptionally hazardous.

Pete

[Ted Miller]

I would have to say for hp, tuning and vibration a cabinet saw is the way to go. Its been said but when you spend the money and purchase a cabinet saw you will not need to upgrade unless you get the itch as Jim pointed out.

I also like the larger tables that come with cabinet saws and just the overall workmanship and metal enclosed stand makes the machine heavier and to an extent easier on the ears.

DC on the other hand, have not seen DC on any saw worth a dime, you need to modify to get decent collection IMO.

Fences are a major concern as well when it comes to your saw of choice, cabinet saws will have the better fences of course as well as miter gages...

[Homer Faucett]

However, I disagree on the previous poster's comments about the DC being good enough on contractor's saws. Unless you enclose the rear of the saw (which means losing the ability to easily tilt the blade), dust collection on contractor's saws is terrible. I enclosed the back of mine, and I generally find myself staying away from doing any bevel cuts.


Good catch, Pete. You definitely need to close up the back one way or another. There are several different approaches, from using rare earth magnets to keep a piece or two of tempered hardboard on the back to close it up, to using a piece of cloth specifically made and velcroed to the frame with an opening for the belt to slide through and a frame attached to the splitter connector so that the belt opening moves with the belt when the blade is tilted.

Either way, it's a pretty simple and cheap fix, and does a decent job. I just feel like there are a lot of voices here that dismiss a good contractor saw offhand without giving them their due. For a lot of people, they really can do nearly everything that a cabinet saw can do with not much in the way of adaptation costs.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, you've asked some excellent questions, and received excellent suggestions.

I went from the top of line Craftsman Contractor saw to a General 650 cabinet saw with Biessemeyer fence and Excalibur overarm guard with a Merlin splitter.

The contractor saw didn't have the accuracy of the cabinet saw, was noisier, had higher vibration, poor dust collection, a poor fence, and lacked horsepower. My mother in law, worked for Emerson, who made the Sears and Skill tools at that time, and I purchased it through her for $500 which was half price, and I used the saw for 12 years. Did I make nice furniture with it? The answer would be yes.

The cabinet saw is smoother, quieter, more powerful, has a larger table, better fence, and much better dust collection. It also cost $3,000 Canadian out the door.

One intangible that I would mention is this, whenever I push the start button on the General, I smile. I always wanted a cabinet saw, and aside from the Sawstop which wasn't available at the time, I have arguably, the best cabinet saw in the business. In addition, it is made in Canada, and that also was important to me.

The fit, finish, and performance of the General is fantastic, and I really enjoy using it.

I cannot speak for your likes or financial situation, however I always suggest that you buy the best tools, and only once. Anything else is a waste of time and money in my opinion. Money is easily had, however the more time you have with the tool, the more enjoyment you will receive, and for a longer time period.

Dream big, spend the money and purchase a cabinet saw of your choice, along with an overarm guard and good splitter system. You deserve it.

Regards, Rod.

[Pete Brown]

Either way, it's a pretty simple and cheap fix, and does a decent job. I just feel like there are a lot of voices here that dismiss a good contractor saw offhand without giving them their due. For a lot of people, they really can do nearly everything that a cabinet saw can do with not much in the way of adaptation costs.

I definitely agree. For the way I use it, I see little reason to upgrade to a cabinet saw, but I see lots of reasons to eventually upgrade to a nice European slider :)

Pete

[Doug M Jones]

Stephan,
I have been leaning toward the Grizzly and looking at General. Won't have the funds till April/May so I have lot's of time to drool and plan.

Pete, thanks for the heads up about DC. I looked through the latest thread about DC and it sounds much more important than I was thinking it was. Definitely has to be part of the big picture plan.

I get lot's of good advice from this forum and everybody is very helpful.

[Von Bickley]

I have a contractor saw and it takes care of my needs. I would love to have a cabinet saw but right now it's not in the budget...:)

If I was setting up a shop or buying a new TS, I would get as much saw as the budget could stand. My TS is the heart of my shop...;)

[scott spencer]

I'm setting up shop in the basement and there is an existing 220V outlet that the previous owners used for an electric clothes dryer about 8' from where the saw will be.

If you've got 220v and the budget, go with the cabinet saw. From a design perspective, I can think of no advantages of a contractor saw over a 3hp cabinet saw....including space.

If cost and/or electrical requirements prohibit the cabinet saw, then a hybrid is a viable alternative.

[Rob Will]

Doug,
I would buy a 3 hp left tilt Unisaw with a 50" Beisemeyer fence.
Add a mobile base if you need to.

The table saw is the centerpiece of your shop. Save your nickels and get a brand name saw. Five years from now, you will look back on the purchase and know you did the right thing.

Good luck with your decision.
Rob

[Larry James]

Doug, about a year ago I replaced my Craftsman 9" saw (try and find a 9" blade!) with a Grizzly G0444Z and it works great.

Dust control takes a little work and experimentation, but I have it at an acceptable level. Regardless of the saw you buy, a zero clearance insert (ZCI) is essential for good dust control.

I considered a cabinet saw, but the additional features did not seem worth the extra cost. For my needs, I made the right choice.

Likely, any saw having the qualities you require will need to be 240 volts.

A good blade is a must for your new saw. I have a Wood Worker II blade ($95) and an Irwin blade ($40). I use the Irwin blade for most cuts and ripping - the WWII for finish project cutting.

On the last episode of NYW, Norm started a 2 part series on the table saw. The 1st part was about the difference between the saws and would probably answer most of your questions. If you can't catch the show on TV, it may be worth buying the video. Read the program description at:
http://www.newyankee.com/2007.shtml

Larry

[Doug M Jones]

Larry,
Sears is about the only place I can reliably find a 9" blade. I currently have a 8 1/2" Hitachi thin kerf blade in it and it works nice but limits the thickness of the boards you can cut. Looking forward to bigger iron.

[Larry James]

Doug,

Yep, been there, done that. Love using the 10" blade. :)

Larry