Can I crossover from power to neander?

[matt halloran]

Hello all...here's my dilema, I am blessed to be on track to make my first quarter sales goals and will get a bonus of 4-5k. I'd like to put some towards the kids, the wife, and then a little left over for daddy(me).

My real concern is I am torn between getting 3 really excellent new planes (lie nielsen low angle block, a 4 1/2, and a jointer plane) or a new sawstop tablesaw.

My question is...are the hand tools like the powertools in that you get what you pay for...usually in powertools you have to spend the most to get the best and "settling" only frustrates (IMHO). So...can I get by with planes that are "flea market" finds (old stanleys, etc) and really hone my skills by learning to sharpen them and tune them properly first OR will this whole process be easier on a sweet brand new lie nielsen?

I've just got ahold of some 23" wide flitch sawn cherry that's begging for some curls to come off of it, I just don't know how to do it with my crappy stanley jack planes!

Thank you for all this forum does for our hobby...

[Mike K Wenzloff]

You've mostly answered your own question, Matt.

You probably can make the Stanleys into pretty darn decent planes. It is more an issue of sweat equity and learning--and some cash--than it is an issue of "can it be done." They still may not be up to the quality of the LV/LN planes, though.

Spend money for time or spend time to save money.

But your choice would be a tough one for me. If I used a tablesaw much, if my present saw was questionable...faced with that choice, I would probably purchase the SawStop [or some other decent saw].

Take care, Mike

[Roy Wall]

Matt,

Well, lots to digest.....

I agree those a a great trio of planes to get!

You are talking about $800 worth of hand tools or $4200 worth of Sawstop. Add another $200+ for Norton stones, or $500 for a Veritas sharpener.

I believe the LN tools make it much easier for a new neander to get good results. They have more precision built in...saving you the time and effort to "fettle" an old Stanley to such a level. You will not believe the accuracy you can achieve with those planes...... the fit and finish of your work will improve.

What do you like to build? and what other power tools do you have?
Would you consider a Sawstop Contractors saw (I know, not out yet...but surely this summer)? This might enable you to have your cake and eat it too!

[Mike Henderson]

You can do a lot with the Stanley bench planes, but the LN low angle block is a recommended plane. You can learn a lot about planes by tuning up the Stanley bench planes and you can get excellent results from them - after all, our ancestors used planes that were not as good as the Stanleys and produced some wonderful furniture.

The LN planes are excellent planes. Eventually, you may feel the need to upgrade your bench planes to the LN or Veritas planes. When that happens, you can sell your Stanleys for what you paid for them (or more!) and buy the LN. But in the meanwhile, you'll have gotten an education and learned whether you're really going to use the planes a lot.

My only reservation is that you sound like you're down on the Stanley planes you already have and may not be happy unless you buy the LNs.

Mike

[Brian Kent]

I got some good advice from these fellow woodworkers last year - Old stanleys are good to learn on, but get one top-notch plane (like the Lie Nielsen block) to show you what you are aiming for.

The other thing I tried that I have never regretted are the mujingfang rosewood jack and smoothers.

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98.105.9050&dept_id=13602

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=98.105.5050&dept_id=13602

[Derek Cohen]

Matt

15 years ago definitely ... perhaps to a significant extent as late as 8 years ago ... my tablesaw was a central feature of my workshop. It is a largish one with 12" blade and sliding table. For the past few years it has had little use and tends to be used as an assembly table. I am not down on it, but my bandsaw and handsaws have largely replaced it.

There was a time when I lacked the confidence to saw accurately without a power tool, and now I feel I have more control over the result using handtools.

What I am trying to say if that my dependency on a power tools has decreased over time and has been replaced by a wide array of hand tools (saws, planes, chisels, etc). Can you see yourself on a similar path? If so, a cheaper tablesaw may suffice as your skills develop, and the selection of LN planes you have picked out may form a terrific foundation in this regard.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Wilbur Pan]

Just to echo Brian's point -- I started off in handplanes by buying a used Stanley #4 and #7. But that's only because my back door neighbor has a bunch of Lie-Nielsen planes, so I had an idea of what the goal would be, and I had a resource close at hand to deal with frustrations. And then I veered off to using Japanese planes, but that's another story.

If you have a local supplier, go and take a Lie-Nielsen for a test drive. They are great planes, and for someone starting off, you can't go wrong.

Also, see if there's a woodworkers' club near you. Or take a lesson on sharpening.

[Ron Brese]

The process will be easier on the Lie-Nielsens, however you need to do some reading and then spend some time fettling your Stanleys. You would be better served learning to fettle on the Stanleys in lieu of the Lie-Nielsens. The Lie-Nielsen planes will come ready to go out of the box, you may just need to hone the irons. However eventually they will need some fine tuning and you need to know how to spot what needs tuning, and that you can learn on the Stanleys. And when you get another bonus call me we'll talk about fixing you up with some infill planes. The slippery slope is coming up, LOOK OUT!!

Ron

[Robert Rozaieski]

I own nothing but old Stanleys and I don't feel like I'm missing anything. Planes are not hard to tune up. I spend about 1-2 hours on a plane, including flattening the sole (:eek: only if needed!). The thing to keep in mind is that every plane you own does not need to take a micro thin shaving so you should not waste time trying to get that from a plane that was never designed to do so.


I've just got ahold of some 23" wide flitch sawn cherry that's begging for some curls to come off of it, I just don't know how to do it with my crappy stanley jack planes!

Case in point are jack/fore/try planes and jointers. Jack planes are not final surfacing planes and should not be treated as such. Save the tissue paper thin shavings and machined flat sole for your smoother.

I don't flatten the soles of jack/fore planes. These are roughing planes, meant for use prior to flattening with the try/jointer plane. If a metal try plane/jointer needs flattening, I won't buy it (not worth the effort). I like a transitional jointer because you can get them real long like a jointer should be (a 24" #8 is more of a try plane than a jointer) and the soles are very easy to flatten with another plane. My jointer is about 29".

In my opinion (for what it's worth;)), take what you would spend on one LN and get a Bailey style jack plane (#5) smooth plane (#4) and the longest transitional jointer you can find. Tune these three planes up so they are optimized for the tasks for which they were designed. In addition, get a Stanley #65 knuckle joint low angle block plane for trimming. These will take you a long way for very little investment and leave you some extra funds for the other hand tools you will inevitably covet once you begin your slide down the slope.:D

[Mark Singer]

For me it is not a question of changing from a power tool guy to a neander.....it is more about the balance of using it all as it makes sense. Some things never look as good if not made by hand....like dovetails and fine joinery. To be a really competent woodworker you should develop both sets of skills and have the tools to use for each task. I would probably buy the newer planes....That is what I have done....I have old ones and they are tuned well, but I always seem to use the newer ones when I am working. I have several LN's and wooden body planes. Start with a couple of planes ...a block and a smoother and see what you think. They hold their value well so you won't make any huge mistake if you don't like them.

[Don Bullock]

Matt, that's a great question with some super answers. I'm not in your position cash wise, but appreciate the advice that our experiences woodworkers here on the Creek freely share with us. After attending my first woodworking show last weekend I've already started dropping hints to the LOML that I may be wanting to spend some cash on some planes. At my age I don't have the time for the learning curve mentioned for the Stanleys. I've never used a plane. What I plan to do is buy, as Mark suggests (I've seen the same suggestion from several others as well), a high quality low angle. asdjustable mouth block plane and a smothing plane and see if I can find a good class where I can learn to use them correctly. At this point I'm leaning toward the LN planes. They aren't that much more than the LV. It's amazing to see the quality up close. Being one who has always used power tools it was hard for me to justify in my mind spending that much on a plane, but after seeing toe quality of the planes and the results peole get from them, I'm sold. BTW --- I too need a better table saw. I definately see a SawStop in my future, but that will have to wait. I can make do with what I have for now.

[Jim Becker]

For me it is not a question of changing from a power tool guy to a neander.....it is more about the balance of using it all as it makes sense. ... To be a really competent woodworker you should develop both sets of skills and have the tools to use for each task.

Balance...my thoughts exactly.

[Hank Knight]

Matt,

Few people who post on this board are totally "neander." Most, including me, have taken the route you're on: started out as electron burners and gravitated to hand tools - but never totally gave up the power tools. I use my power tools all the time, but I enjoy doing the fitting and the detail work with hand tools. I think most of us fall into this category in one way or another.

I agree with others who have suggested starting with LNs or other top-of-the-line modern planes makes the journey shorter and easier for a new or inexperienced woodworker. But I learned on Stanleys and I have a bunch of them I use all the time. I don't think you would make a mistake by starting out with some good user Stanleys or comparable tools. You will learn a lot about them by fettling them into good working order. It's not hard to do and there is a ton of materials on this and otrher boards about how to do it.

I think the answer to your question about allocating your budget depends on where you see your woodworking going and what equipment you have now. If I were in your shoes and based on the way I work, I would buy the Saw Stop. My table saw is one of the workhorses in my shop. If I didn't already have a Unisaw, I'd buy a Saw Stop in a heartbeat - I may still buy one. For me, the security it offers and the comfort of knowing I would likely keep all of my fingers so I could continue to enjoy my hand tools would dictate the choice. And this is from someone who loves his hand tools.

Hank

[matt halloran]

For me it is not a question of changing from a power tool guy to a neander.....it is more about the balance of using it all as it makes sense. Some things never look as good if not made by hand....like dovetails and fine joinery. To be a really competent woodworker you should develop both sets of skills and have the tools to use for each task. I would probably buy the newer planes....That is what I have done....I have old ones and they are tuned well, but I always seem to use the newer ones when I am working. I have several LN's and wooden body planes. Start with a couple of planes ...a block and a smoother and see what you think. They hold their value well so you won't make any huge mistake if you don't like them.

This is why I love this board so much...Thank you to all who have replied.

Sound advice from you all. If I were to write my resume of WW it would be pretty weak at the moment. However, if I were to write my mission statement I would have to say my goals are high...I'm planning to build my own kitchen, lay my own hardwoods, build a curved-open tread staircase, try and make my own lapstroke boat for my son and I to cruise around in, and oh yeah, some heirloom furniture along the way! All this before I'm 30 should satisfy my mid-life crisis and allow me to be called a "success" =)

I agree whole heartedly with Mark...I am really looking for some balance. While I know I will never EVER give up using my Laguna HD16 bandsaw, I recognize the need to be able to flatten a beautifully crotched wide board (something about taking one day to build a jig for my router, put on earplugs, crank up the db's to 110 and blast away takes a little from the experience IMHO).

So, I think I'm going to get a LN low angle block, and then hit up a secret spot of mine where I know some bailey's are moderately priced. I promise to post pics and ask a BILLION questions about fettling when I do jump down the slope!

Is the consensus then that the best starting set would be somewhere around a low angle block, #5, #4 or 4 1/2, and a "good" jointer plane at least 22" long?

Thanks everyone so much...sorry if I"m too long winded for this board, I just love learning from you all!

[matt halloran]

wierd...I responded but it put my post two up from this one....hmm?

[Brian Kent]

Slippery slope - hah!

Don't believe this stuff about the slippery slope of hand-plane proliferation. I just started with handplanes a year ago, and I only have eleven of them. I don't think I will ever need more, except maybe the trio of low-angle planes by Lee Valley, a router plane, a plow plane, a wooden jointer, some hollow and rounding planes, whatever is in a new catalogue, shiney things on e-aby and at swap meets, and dull things that I think would be pretty if I made them shiny.

[Roy Wall]

Matt,

Yes - a great base set is the LA blk plane......the 4.5 and the #7

Hand planing is very enjoyable and rewarding!

[Michael Gibbons]

Simple, Rough cut the boards with power tools then fine tune your work with hand tools. Like Rob Cosman said "I don't have time to fettle or rebuild planes . I want to use my tools to make furniture"

[Brian Kent]

Is the consensus then that the best starting set would be somewhere around a low angle block, #5, #4 or 4 1/2, and a "good" jointer plane at least 22" long?

Yup!

[Mike Henderson]

Is the consensus then that the best starting set would be somewhere around a low angle block, #5, #4 or 4 1/2, and a "good" jointer plane at least 22" long?
The only comment I would add is that I NEVER use my #5. Maybe it's just me, but I reach for a longer or shorter plane and the #5 never gets used. Also, I use my shorter planes a lot more than my longer ones.

Mike

[Robert Rozaieski]

Is the consensus then that the best starting set would be somewhere around a low angle block, #5, #4 or 4 1/2, and a "good" jointer plane at least 22" long?

I would have to agree with Mr. Henderson. If you don't plan on doing stock prep from rough to finish with hand planes, then skip the #5. You will still use the block plane for trimming, the #4/#4½ for smoothing and the jointer for edge jointing (match planing) and flattening panels too large for your planer. I would suggest a longer jointer if you can get one but a 22" #7 will work fine too.

For trying (flattening) panels, I use a 22" #7 but for edge jointing I use a #34 transitional that is about 29" long. The additional length really helps with getting the edges straight when match planing (like the longer bed length of an 8" power jointer compared to a 6" power jointer), especially on longer boards like those for use in tall case sides. Also, I like to hone my #7 iron with a litle camber but my #34 jointer iron dead straight for match planing. Just a personal preference.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I would also have to agree with the last two postings. I do use my LN low angle jack (a #5 size) alot--however for shooting! A number of other planes can be used for shooting including many blocks and bench planes.

[Terry Beadle]

I would recommend you get a jointer from Steve Knight. His planes are really a great tool and his prices are really reasonable. For most wood work a plane that's equivelent to a 07 or 08 will meet your jointing needs. I have a wooden 30 that just sits in the cornor as there is very little furnature pieces that need that type of leveling. Besides, the jack plane is where most of the work is done. If I bought one plane that's pricy, it would be the LN 5 1/2 with a either the HAF but more likely the standard frog. That would do almost all work you needed from smoothing to jointing in one tool. Just my opinion. But really, it's just such a quaity tool.

I have a Steve Knight jack, extended to 17 inches out of Cocobolo and it will take shavings of 1 thou on up to belt thick with just a tap or two of the hammer. My preference though is for a wood jack. I have a bedrock 605 with Hock blade, tuned and just won't quit. So now you know I'm confused but love them all. Slope...what slope?