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Jim Good
02-25-2007, 10:42 PM
I posed this question on another forum but thought I should get opinions here, too! I'm a newbie so I'm still figuring everything out but I'm curious to know the relationship between those who scroll saw and those who laser cut scroll saw patterns. Do they get along!?! :o

I went to a craft show and I saw a framed cutting that had the word "Laser" cut out with a circle around it and a line going through it! I checked out his handiwork but I forgot to mention to him that I had a laser!!!

If I went to a scroll saw forum, should I wear sunglasses or tell them I am a laser fella that likes to cut scroll saw patterns? Will I be shunned? Will I be welcomed?

Any thoughts!?!

Thanks!

Jim

Joe Pelonio
02-25-2007, 11:19 PM
Here we all get along.

At craft shows/fairs the scroll saw and hand carving people feel that their work is worth more than that of the laser and CNC people and use it in their advertising, as you saw. Typically their prices are higher so the buyers have to decide which is better for their budget, I guess. One thing we can do is use original artwrok, and use that to add value, if you or someone you work with is an artist.

Ben Levesque
02-26-2007, 8:19 AM
Hey, I always thought both machine complete each other, I have both, and use them a lot equally, so there is no know issues I am aware of between a piece made on a laser and a piece made on a scroll saw ?!

Ben

George M. Perzel
02-26-2007, 8:55 AM
Hi Jim;
Interesting question on which I do have some first hand knowledge. For the most part, scrollsawers are reasonably courteous and tolerant of laser owners, but tend to categorize us as machine operators rather than skilled craftsmen-much like the coping saw guys must have acted toward the first scrollsawers!
In some cases, I ran into downright angry hostility and bitterness- fostered by a belief that lasers were putting them out of business, which may or may not be true, but totally ignores the fact that advances in technology will continue to force changes in the way we do things- I think its called "progress". In spite of this, some people will wish to use and maintain the "old" skills and there will always be a premium for quality handmade work. I envy them and applaud them, but will continue to use new techniques and machines if they help be increase capacity and quality.
Best regards;
George
LaserArts

Jim Good
02-26-2007, 9:32 AM
George, I agree with you. I have the utmost respect for the scrollers. They spend so many hours working on a pattern. They take 10-15 hours or more to cut a stack of 3 or 4 pieces. Granted, I may spend that much time cleaning up a scanned pattern, but at the end of the day I can cut many copies. That does have to be demoralizing for a scroller. I read somewhere in an article that the consumer isn't as concerned with how you arrive at a product as long as it looks good. If someone can produce a nice framed cutting, they won't care (typically) whether it was done on a laser or a scroll saw. I guess for us that is progress. We found a way to produce the product with less labor and time. Again, I respect the patience and skill they have to produce such a nice end-product.

I want to be able to participate in forum discussions on scroll saw sites but I don't want to be treated like scum! :( I'd like to learn more about how best to finish the cutting and also the best way to present it. Jeff Zaffino has written some good articles and he prefers to double mat and put it in a nice frame. They look nice and I would lean that way.

George, I've got another question. How are you converting your scanned pattern into a vector file? I am using Corel Draw X3 and using the Trace option but I am getting 2 lines for every single line traced. A circle becomes a tube with an inside diameter and an outside diameter! It is a pain to clean up a very complicated pattern. I guess some people are using version 12 which sounds like contains better trace capabilities. Any thoughts!?!

Jim

Ed Lang
02-26-2007, 10:27 AM
I have two RBI Hawks and one Universal Laser as well as a ShopBot CNC router. I no longer cut on the Hawks because production is too slow. I like being able to say that my work is hand cut but I also like to be able to have the quanity needed to fill orders. I was slow to accept the laser as a worthy tool vs a scroll saw. Think about it this way, you could use a pick, horse and plow or a tractor and plow(s). All ways will turn the Earth and make the ground ready to plant. You will be able to produce more with machinery. You might even be able to produce better food with machinery as you can do more to take care of it as you will have the time to.

Blacksmiths didn't like cars
Rail Road men didn't like trucks
trucks don't like airplanes
Scrollers don't like lasers

BUT

Folks still need Blacksmiths for their horses
Rail Roads still run
Trucks still haul
Scrollers still cut and sell product
Lasers are still cutting and selling too.

I expect you will be not as welcomed in the scroller forums since you have a laser. I wish I was wrong on this.

I never see anyone say that the scroll saw is just a tool and the laser is just a tool. Neither one can do anything without a person making the tool do its thing.

A fire made by rubbing two sticks together will burn you just the same as a fire made by using a $.99 BIC lighter.

Mark Winlund
02-26-2007, 1:25 PM
Kind of funny.... I remember when the first vinyl cutters came out.... they were actually pen plotters with a knife attachment. No specific sign cutter software then, either! The sign painters all hated them.... "too mechanical", "no art any more" and so forth. We were the first in our city to have one. The sign painters would kind of sneak in our back door to have us cut lettering for them. We could do in minutes what would take them hours, and look better to boot!

Now, every sign painter in town has vinyl equipment, the controversy of "art" vs "the computer" long forgotten. I had almost forgotten the emotions the computer revolution generated.

Mark


[quote=George M. Perzel]

In some cases, I ran into downright angry hostility and bitterness- fostered by a belief that lasers were putting them out of business, which may or may not be true, but totally ignores the fact that advances in technology will continue to force changes in the way we do things- I think its called "progress". In spite of this, some people will wish to use and maintain the "old" skills and there will always be a premium for quality handmade work. I envy them and applaud them, but will continue to use new techniques and machines if they help be increase capacity and quality.

George M. Perzel
02-26-2007, 2:42 PM
Hi Jim;
This question has come up a time or two on this and other forums-there are a number of software methods available to do this, but my favorite continues to be using the Trace function in Corel 12. In an effort (I think) to make Trace an internal Corel Draw X3 function, the "creators" removed some of the selectable featrures present in 12- most notably the Centerline Trace capability.
T use it, open your bitmap image in Corel 12 Trace, select Image-Mode- Black and Whte to convert your image (Centerline Trace only works in this mode) and then trace using Centerline. You may want to play with the node reduction and iteration settings a little to fine tune the output which is a vectorized CMX file.
Hope this helps but email or call me if you have questions.
Best regards;
George
LaserArts
gperzel@rochester.rr.com
585-924-4519

Phil Sanders
02-26-2007, 8:07 PM
I am a scroll sawyer. I mostly contribute to forums for scroll sawing. I joined this forum for the Neanderthal sub-forum. I stumbled on to this thread and would like to add my comments to this thread.

This may be way off the beaten path, and very long winded, as it were.

-Copyright:
Many scroll sawyer's are unable to design their own patterns, be it Intarsia, fretwork, segmentation, and so on. Some people are artistic, some are not. They use the services of scroll saw pattern designers, or makers, who sell their designs. The design people make a very small return on their investment of time, but it is time they spend and they should be compensated. Period. No free lunches.

Because of the history of a few Laser and CNC people taking a design for scroll saw and making literally hundreds and hundreds of copies of a design, design support for the scroll sawyers is in trouble. Look at it this way. A scroll saw book has a photo-copy limit of 10 xerox copies. Stack cutting 4 at a time, that means a legal copyright limit of 40 copies for craft show sales. This turns out to be a fair and reasonable sales volume for a scroll saw artisan. However, we feel that laser cutters owner can scan the image into a computer, and make 4,000 copies or more. This floods the market for that design, and no further sales of that design is practical. And the design artist receives almost no further compensation for the creation effort.

The people who earn an income from selling scroll saw designs are less willing to continue designing as a side business because the rights to control copying of their designs; "Intellectual property rights" and the earning an income from their work. The effort to protect copyright in a court of law is not worth the effort. Unless one is a major corporation protecting a trademark.

If you Laser and CNC types and use your own artistic skills to create your own designs, you are welcome to do as you see fit. Your design, your copyright, make as many copies as you want. Sell your designs or / and the CNC program as you see fit.

However, and this is just an example, to take a pattern from a scroll saw magazine, scan it in to a computer,...., and try to sell 4,000 copies and all you did was pay for the magazine, is this fair to the creating artist, the workers at the magazine, and the magazine publisher? Just remember all who earn money on scroll saw designs to some extent have based their income on the economics of limited production by hand crafted scroll sawyers. (Most of whom are hobbyist.) Trust me, we're not talking about a lot of money, but some money. There are no free lunches.

So, do any of you have a suggestion on how to re-align the economic structure of compensation for the design artist to account for the mass production ability of your CNC tools? Anyone?

- Definition of "Handcrafted"
Scroll sawyers know very well that Laser and CNC mass production can very well under-cut cost which in turn allows price reduction. Once you have scanned in a design, cleaned it up, and produced you machine command codes, your major production time / cost are over. No hand crafter can compete with a machine.

At crafts shows, we seek a level playing field with the competition. Please feel free to attend craft shows that allow CNC machine products, and the so called "Buy / Sell" vendor shows, and so forth. You have that right. But when the art and craft show publicly proclaims they want "handcrafted" products the point the jury's decision for vendor selection is a uniqueness of each item being sold. Uniqueness being that human error, however subtle, make each item ever so slightly different.

We feel that the customers at these "handcrafted" shoes DO care how the products are made. We feel they DO want the artisan's touch on each item so it isn't a perfect machine copy of another.

But the customer is not above the influence of the pocket book. The anger and un-bridled rage scroll sawyer against the Laser and CNC cutters is the un-equal economic playing field. We know we cannot compete with you so we don't want to. We seek art and craft shows where the economics is fair to all vendors. We ask that you respect your economic power and attend shows where you are welcome. There are lots of shows where you are welcome. In other words, pick on someone your own size.

I know this has been a ultra long post, but believe me, I could go on for quite a while longer. Thank-you for time to hear my opinions out on this subject.

Phil

edit: spell checker error to wrong word.

Mike Null
02-26-2007, 8:35 PM
Caveat Emptor

Lee DeRaud
02-26-2007, 9:18 PM
Speaking as someone who has been on both sides of the aisle (so to speak), I find myself having very little patience with anyone who will take someone else's design, produce N copies of it, and then try to claim the moral or artistic high ground over someone producing original work just because of some arbitrary difference in the technology level of the tools involved.

Dennis Perry
02-26-2007, 9:52 PM
Phil, very well puthttp://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/icons/icon14.gif sharpen your pencil and write some more.

Dennis

Jim Good
02-27-2007, 2:08 AM
Phil,

That was the type of response I was seeking. I want to see both sides of the argument and to witness the true feelings of each side. Your post is closer to what I expected from the scroll saw side of the fence.

I agree with you that there is a fear that the laser folks would mass-produce these cuttings and water down the value of both the laser-produced and scroll saw-produced pieces. I can only speak for myself. I wouldn't want to make 4000 copies just because of that reason. My next question would have been how many copies of a a laser-produced item be made? I think you brought up a good point that most magazines request only 10 photo copies. With stacking you are talking about 40 pieces and that sounds like a good number for me, personally. For others, they may argue they have no problem with supplying as many cuttings as the consumers want. If there is a demand, then why not provide what the consumer demands? Like I said, I would feel better if I limited the pieces to 40 for a pattern that I used from a magazine or even some of the scroll saw pattern books. Now if I designed a pattern myself, I would not obligate myself to 40 but I would probably do it out of respect for the scroll saw folks and limit the production anyway.

As far as whether a laser-produced piece is handcrafted, I think I may have to disagree with your thoughts that it doesn't apply. The finished product still needs to be stained and finished and also matted and framed. The final product, as far as I'm concerned, is a handcrafted piece. Because a laser is more efficient than a scroll saw it doesn't diminish the quality of the finished piece nor reduce the value. If the craft show allows a laser engraver to have a booth at their show, I think that means they are welcomed. Are there craft shows that request handcrafted goods that would deny a laser engraver to show their items? I don't know that answer. Does that happen, Phil? I'm trying to understand exactly how we all fit into this equation. To the laser folks, have you ever been denied a booth at any of the "handcrafted" shows? Equally, have you been allowed to have a booth at this type of craft show?

Phil, it sounds like if I try to join into some discussions on a scroll saw forum and let them know I'm using a laser to make my cuttings, I may not get invited over for dinner!?! :o Like I said, I have a lot of respect for the scroll saw folks and love to see their work (especially the intarsia) and I'd like to play in their reindeer games and I don't plan on watering down the value of their work.

I appreciate your candid views. That is why I asked the original question and I would like to hear more of your views on this subject. That's the only way I'm going to learn the truth! Sorry for the length of the post.

I appreciate all the posts.

Jim

Barbara Buhse
02-27-2007, 11:04 AM
denied a booth at a craft show? Thats a laugh.. In my area, the first question out of the mouth of the organizer is "do you sell jewelry".. if not, and you're not selling tupperware, or pampered chef, then you are more than welcome, as there are so few real "craft" booths (whether you consider them handcrafted or not) at all in the "craft" shows any more. (yes, even some of the jewelry is made by hand)... but I always get a great response to my laser cut products, some of which are purchased patterns, some of which are created by me... and so far no one has been offended by the fact that they aren't done on a scroll saw (which I have an do sometimes ask hubby to make some thicker things for me). And I don't ever sell 4000 of anything... :)

Belinda Williamson
02-27-2007, 11:23 AM
There is a juried show that travels a circuit in our area at Christmas. Their rules specifically state you cannot sell any item that can be mass produced by machinery. You must submit photos of each step of the production of your "craft". I guess it all depends on the interpretation of "mass produced". One woodworker who displays every year builds furniture - mainly benches, he cuts multiples of all the pieces, and then assembles them. On the one hand I guess you say these are mass produced, since no quantity for "mass" is delineated in the show rules. Same thing with machine sewn items. Ditto for personalized Christmas ornaments where there are lots of the same design. Are these hand crafted because someone paints a name on them? When I approached them regarding laser items I was told my products were not "hand crafted". Go figure:confused:

Lee DeRaud
02-27-2007, 11:35 AM
There is a juried show that travels a circuit in our area at Christmas. Their rules specifically state you cannot sell any item that can be mass produced by machinery. ... I guess it all depends on the interpretation of "mass produced".What I find amusing in these discusssions is that the interpretation of "mass-produced" is secondary to the interpretation of "by machinery": for some odd reason, a scrollsaw isn't considered "machinery".

Belinda Williamson
02-27-2007, 12:11 PM
Lee,

RE the scrollsaw not being considered machinery by some folks, I have found that to be true. Wonder why? I suppose most consumers assume when one uses a scroll saw one has created their own pattern, making the fact that the piece is cut by machine unimportant. I personally do not cut scroll saw patterns with my laser, and never produce mass quantities of any item. I feel the demand is greater if the consumer sees only one or two of an item, rather than 50. 'Course my marketing skills ain't ever been ranked up there with Sam Walton's, so I am probably wrong!:D

Phil Sanders
02-27-2007, 12:38 PM
Jim:

Thank-you, and to the readers and members of this forum, for allowing me to express my opinions with out invoking rage or a flame war.

I must confess, after a few hours I re-read my post and discovered that a casual reader could have become very angry at my post by mis-reading. So allow me to clarify. Because of the current cost and effort to own a CNC or DNC machine and the effort to create the CNC or DNC commands, I have presumed that almost all Laser and DNC machine owners are small business owners who are involved in some way of trying to sell items being made from the machines. The number of Hobbyist who just make a few items for giving away to friends and family is a small percentage of CNC machine owners. This is just an presumption on my part, as I have no proof either way. I admit I very well could be wrong.

I also did not, repeat NOT, mean to imply I hold the opinion that all CNC machine owners would make 4000 copies of anything. Nor did I mean to imply that all are ethically equivalent to (fill in the blank yourself.) I was not trying to stand as some moral superior being disdainfully preaching some personal gospel of sobriety to a saloon full of sinners.; trust me, glass house and all that. I did try to keep it at a business discussion level (copyrights and show attendance), nothing personal, just business.

Your latest post actually asks several questions. So I can focus on each, please allow me to address each in separate posts.

The real big point about craft shows. There are a couple of web sites, that you should know about. (aside: I don't know the policy of posting links, so I will provide info for doing a Google search) The first is Craftlister dot com. There is lots and lots of discussion at this site on the concept of Handcrafted, hand-finish, machine aided crafted, and many other terms.

The second is artandcraftshows dot net (there are many other web sites and magazines to provide craft shows, arts and crafts events, street fairs, and Art shows listings.)

If you read through the specifications for some of the shows in your area you will see there are differences in what the organizers allow. Across the board, all crafters, artisans, and artist are fighting what is and is not allowed in a show, not just scroll sawyers. The allowance of the "buy / sell" trade, or the CNC manufactured products depend on the show. Some artist are doing their graphic work on the computer and print out the art work on a large special plotter called a 'raster plotters.' Some art shows don't allow computer generated graphics to be sold as art work. All up to the organizer of the show.

Other shows, and there are a lot of them also, allow almost anything. Including direct imports from China, being sold with very little finishing to make it legal to remove the Made In China label.

Yes, if you are granted permission to set up a booth at a "handcrafted only" juried show, and you create your basic patterns on a CNC Laser machine then just finish the items, you can expect to be turned in and the organizers will forcefully remove you and your items to your car (no refund on your booth money.) Just like if I attended a "original" and "handcrafted" show I would be sent to the parking lot since I only do designs I have purchased the rights to. (no creative skills for "original" work.)

If you read the descriptions of some shows, there is usually a specific term like "No Laser, CNC, DNC, or other tools of mass production...." They are in fact on the look out for items where the 70%, 80% or 90% of the work is machine fabricated, and the crafter is only doing finish work. If the jury suspects your products are not what they want, you don't get to be a vendor at that show.

It is not uncommon for vendors to be ejected from a show. There are many reasons for being ejected. (aside: just try to collect sales tax, and don't have a license from the state to collect the sales tax, not recommended!)

The important thing I wanted to stress is you should attend shows that permit the products made from the tools and technique you own. It is not just scroll sawyers against CNC machine owners. This battle is waged for and against the silver-smiths, the jam and jelly makers, the graphic artist, the baby clothes vendors, almost everyone except the popcorn vendor.

As I stated in my earlier post, the object is to compete on a level economic playing field. If I choose to set up a booth at a fair that allows Laser CNC products, that is my choice to get beat up with no sales. Period. However, if you choose to attend a "no import buy / sell" show and a vendor across the aisle is selling similar items as you are, and his items come from where the labor cost is under 20˘ per hour then feel free to be upset; I would.

I will reply to your question about visiting scroll saw sites in a later post. This is another of my long winded rambling post as it is, so I must end it.

I suspect this topic has been beaten to death many time before in the forum. Sorry if I am re-stating the obvious.

Phil

Belinda Williamson
02-27-2007, 12:57 PM
Phil,

Thanks for your postings on this issue. I completely respect your opinion. I fully understand the rights of shows to reject or accept based on their guidelines. I just wanted to share my experience, and didn't argue the rejection with the committee, nor do I want to argue it here. I have not had experience with shows that state the percentage of the process that has to be done by hand. That makes perfectfuly good sense to me.

I have participated in other shows with my crochet items. I create the design and do all the work by hand. I absolutely can't compete with the pricing of crochet items being sold as "hand made" by Michael's, etc., so I get the point you are making.

Again, thanks for sharing your opinions here. I truly believe the consumer who is looking for the real deal hand crafted items has the right to honesty in presentation, and should not be misled into believing they are buying handcrafted items when they are not. Thus, the purpose of juried shows.

Happy crafting!

Phil Sanders
02-27-2007, 1:09 PM
Lee and Belinda:

I may not be able to give you a definitive answer to why scold sawing is considered 'handcrafted', but allow me to try:

Scold sawing, either with a modern motorized saw, or a foot powered saw from the 1890's or 1920's, is a learned skill. It is an eye-hand co-ordination thing of moving the wood past the blade. This skill has a learning curve because it is building the eye-hand co-ordination skill. It don't take long to learn the skill, and it ain't hard to learn, but it does have to be learned. The key is practice, and skill building.

Other power woodworking usually involves jigs, fixtures, fences, guides, and so on. These aids seldom work with the scroll saw, and thus we get to save some of our money. Neanderthal woodworkers have the worst as far as learning curves goes, in my opinion.

BTW, there are some craft show vendors who do bandsaw work. They are usually admitted also. Same thing. Eye-hand movement of wood past the blade. A developed skill.

Carvers are usually allowed even if they use power grinders. A few times I saw a vendor who carved with a chain saw. Log stumps turned into bears. I suspect wood carving done on a 9 axis DNC machine would be rejected at most juried shows while a chain saw carver would be accepted.

This is in no way intended to demean or lessen the skill needed to learn to create the graphic art on(in?) the computer. That creation task is beyond me. It also take a significant learning curve to translate the graphic art to the Laser or CNC machine commands, setup the machine, and so forth.

But the show organizers and jury make the rules.

I don't think this helps you out any, but it is the only argument I can offer at this time.

Phil

PS: Belinda, thank you for your kind words.

Kim Vellore
02-27-2007, 1:11 PM
There are markets where scroll saw would do better than lasers like if you take a thick hard wood or a oily wood that will turn up charred and messy in a laser but great with a scroll saw, Or angled cuts that will not be possible with a laser. I think this will lead to changes, improvements and adaptation in the scroll saw industry that will be good for all.
Kim

Belinda Williamson
02-27-2007, 1:15 PM
Phil,

Thanks for the clarification. I had not thought of the coordination and learning required. Such is the beauty of an open forum - sharing of information by those more informed. My only experience with a scroll saw is helping my dad cut out reindeer and a sleigh (from a pattern). I also appreciate the example of the chainsaw carver. Anyone who can see the bear inside the wood, and bring it to life with a chainsaw has my utmost admiration. The only thing I manage to cut with a chainsaw are pine limbs - and not in a creative way!

Keith Outten
02-27-2007, 1:22 PM
I could say;

Those folks who use those electric powered scroll saws aren't craftsman, if you don't use a coping saw it just isn't hand made.

The same analogy can be made between a scroll saw and a laser. You can't cut wood with your hands...you must use a tool. Whether the tool is a chisel, coping saw, band saw, table saw, scroll saw or a laser beam the end result is the wood gets cut by a tool. Tools are operated by people.

There was a time when the term hand crafted meant that no power tools were used, this includes electric sewing machines.
You know it isn't hand crafted unless you manually sew it stitch by stitch :)

Websters Dictionary defines the term "Hand Crafted" as;
To make something by manual skill.

The word "Manual" is defined as;
operated by hand rather than mechanically or automatically.

Even a foot powered scroll saw is a mechanical device, therefor if you use a scroll saw it isn't hand crafted.

The term hand crafted is old, outdated and used improperly most of the time. If a craft show actually required only hand crafted projects there would be very few tables, very few sales and very few Craft Shows.

.

Lee DeRaud
02-27-2007, 1:59 PM
Scold sawing, either with a modern motorized saw, or a foot powered saw from the 1890's or 1920's, is a learned skill. It is an eye-hand co-ordination thing of moving the wood past the blade. This skill has a learning curve because it is building the eye-hand co-ordination skill. It don't take long to learn the skill, and it ain't hard to learn, but it does have to be learned. The key is practice, and skill building.Phil, I understand that: I used a scrollsaw for many years before I bought the laser.
I must confess, after a few hours I re-read my post and discovered that a casual reader could have become very angry at my post by mis-reading. So allow me to clarify. Because of the current cost and effort to own a CNC or DNC machine and the effort to create the CNC or DNC commands, I have presumed that almost all Laser and DNC machine owners are small business owners who are involved in some way of trying to sell items being made from the machines. The number of Hobbyist who just make a few items for giving away to friends and family is a small percentage of CNC machine owners. This is just an presumption on my part, as I have no proof either way. I admit I very well could be wrong.

I also did not, repeat NOT, mean to imply I hold the opinion that all CNC machine owners would make 4000 copies of anything. Nor did I mean to imply that all are ethically equivalent to (fill in the blank yourself.) I was not trying to stand as some moral superior being disdainfully preaching some personal gospel of sobriety to a saloon full of sinners.; trust me, glass house and all that. I did try to keep it at a business discussion level (copyrights and show attendance), nothing personal, just business.
No harm, no foul, and rest assured I was not speaking of you personally in either of my previous posts. Note that I am somewhat of an "odd man out" on this forum, in that I bought the laser strictly on a "hobbyist" basis, not to start or supplement a business...and so it remains, going on two years later. (This subforum used to be called "Laser Woodworking"; as you can see, the focus has changed somewhat since then.)

But there certainly does seem to be a perception within the scrollsaw community that the "laser people" are out to steal their livelihood. And I have always thought it ironic that the most vocal opposition seems to come from people who (as you describe) think nothing of making 30-40 items from a magazine design and selling them for profit...and calling themselves "artists".

Mark Winlund
02-27-2007, 2:17 PM
I think Keith has the right idea. The tools vary over the years. Just because you can make something quickly does not detract from it's "art". How about photography? Would you say Ansel Adams was just a machine operator because he used a camera and film rather than a paint brush? How many people would be able to enjoy his "moonrise" photo if there was only one copy? Should we eliminate the printing press and go back to scribes sitting in a stone room copying documents by hand?

The concept is absurd.

Mark

Vicky Orsini
02-27-2007, 2:31 PM
It don't take long to learn the skill, and it ain't hard to learn, but it does have to be learned. The key is practice, and skill building. That sounds remarkably like what I was told when I started learning about lasers. ;)

Ed Lang
02-27-2007, 2:51 PM
But there certainly does seem to be a perception within the scrollsaw community that the "laser people" are out to steal their livelihood. And I have always thought it ironic that the most vocal opposition seems to come from people who (as you describe) think nothing of making 30-40 items from a magazine design and selling them for profit...and calling themselves "artists".
Interesting! I had not thought about it that way.

Seems to me that after reading Keiths post, a LOT of folks are using the words Hand Crafted WRONG!

Wonder what Henry Ford would say about all of this?

The last Arts and Crafts show I was at, just before Christmas had folks there who were selling pine furniture and such made out of shelving boards. I see those patterns for sale all over the place. I also saw several folks with sewn items. Some even had their sewing machines there working! I didn't think to tell them that they were not making hand crafted items

I would like to get opinions on this......

I make cutting boards out of wood. I saw a cutting board that Keith makes out of Corian and liked the shape. I made mine in the same rectangle shape with a handle cut into it. I don't put a groove around the edge like Keith does. Mine is made from wood not Corian. I buy rough lumber and plane it with a 20" planer, not by hand. I rip it into strips on a table saw and pick out the colors and the patters I like. Red Oak, Walnut, Cherry, Maple and White Oak for example. I glue by spreading the glue by hand and clamping. Then I run them through the planer again and them I cut the outside profile and handle on the CNC. I then roundover the edges by using my router in a router table and a roundover bit. I then finish with mineral oil and hand to drip. I also sand by using a randon orbital sander.

What would you call how I make my cutting boards? Hand Crafted, Mass produced or whatever?

Does the class of my work change after I run the finished cutting board under my laser and engrave your name on it?

Interesting topic we have here.

Belinda Williamson
02-27-2007, 3:04 PM
Keith's post does make one stop and think. What is your definition of "hand crafted"?. I have always thought of hand crafted as an item you wouldn't find in "mass market" store, something that wasn't produced in a factory employing hundreds of people. I raised the question of items produced on a sewing machine in an earlier post. My grandmother made quilts completely by hand. My mother pieced her quilt tops with a sewing machine, but did the quilting by hand. I consider both items hand crafted. Quilts sold by large retailers are completly machine sewn, but are many times promoted as hand crafted. So where do we draw the line as to what percentage of an item be produced by hand in order to wear the stamp "hand crafted"? No matter what the product there will always be a new and better way to produce it. Sometimes that new and better way will produce better quality, sometimes not.

There is still something special about holding a whittled piece in your hands, one completely made by hand, and wondering about the person who whittled it, what thoughts they had during the process, what drove them to create a wolf as opposed to an eagle? To me that sets apart what is truly made by hand versus what is produced in multiples by machinery.

Now, back to the debate over what is actually machinery. . .

Jim Good
02-27-2007, 3:10 PM
Phil,

I appreciate your input to this discussion. Truthfully, if you had not posted, this thread would have died much earlier. So, because you're here right now, I've learned some things and I think this has been a positive exchange for me.

From reading all the posts I believe that the people on this forum have respect for the scroll saw folks. I believe the folks on this site would not be the ones who mass-produce a product and compete directly with the scrollers. I have no plans to do something like that. I would love to make my own patterns. There are beautiful patterns that exist and I would want to produce as many of these different cuttings as possible instead of cranking out thousands of one pattern. At that point it becomes a job. I'm having too much fun for it to become a job.

It seems like the consensus here is that the laser may be considered an improved tool as far as arriving at the finished product. The scroll saw is an improved tool, itself, compared to earlier times. You are right that the laser vs scroll saw is not the only example of this conflict. We will have technological advances that will make one group unhappy. There is a place for both. The juried craft shows are a perfect way to determine the boundaries set up by the show. I respect that. Instead of having a booth, I would love to go to the show and enjoy the artwork. (Granted, I probably would keep it to myself that I have a laser!!!;) )

If a consumer wants something to hang on their wall, they will have several options and two of them are scroll saw and laser items. We might as well find a way to coexist.

George M. Perzel
02-27-2007, 5:13 PM
Hi Phil;
Please allow me to preface that it is not my intention to get into a “spitting” contest with you . You sound firm in your beliefs and convictions and I respect that.
However, it never fails to amaze me the rationalization process some people use to justify bad behavior. To clarify, I am not talking about your behavior but your rationalization as to why some scroll sawyers treat laser owners with “anger and un-bridled rage”- what I call bad behavior.
As I understand it, just because I own a laser I am a threat to the economic well-being of those less fortunate who must depend upon less productive tools to earn a living and, because I am such a threat, this justifies any of the less fortunate to treat me and my kind with animosity and contempt.
I conjecture that this attitude must be retribution for the pain and anguish suffered by the scroll sawyers at the hands of the jig sawyers- who , in turn,were forced to endure the wrath of the coping sawyers in the really olden days!
Sarcasm aside, it’s puzzling to me your use of the “copyright” problem as part of your rationalization. As I understand it, evidently many scroll sawyers are not creative people and must rely on purchased designs, some of which have copy quantity restrictions (??). Your implication that laser owners, because of their higher volume capacity and better efficiency (and access to scanners?), will violate these restrictions while scroll sawyers will not, is totally absurd. You illogically extend this to further imply that the loss of revenue from “hundreds and hundreds of copies” of a design will cause the designers to quit designing and cause scrollsawing to become a lost art (or force scroll sawyers to become creative?). Now I understand why the monks were all peeved at Gutenberg for inventing the printing press!
You further imply that a design from a scrollsawing magazine is strictly for use by scrollsawers only, but graciously acquiesce to allow “laser and CNC” types to freely use any self created designs as much as we “see fit”. Thank you for your generosity-most of us freely share that which we create as evidenced by scanning the archives of this forum.
As you so aptly stated, I could go on and on (what’s handcrafted?) but do not want to start a flame war as it’s not our nature on this forum.
For the record, however, I would like to state that I am a woodworker and a craftsman hobbyist who uses the laser in addition to many other tools to make things which I like to make- some for sale, some for charities, but most for fun and friends. I have never copied, scanned, or reproduced any scrollsaw pattern because, quite frankly, I don’t find them very attractive. I do have tremendous admiration for the skill and patience of scrollsawyers but must admit that to do such work would quickly send me to a quiet, dark room with padded walls.
Finally, I would like to welcome you and other scrollsawyers to join and participate in this forum- you won’t find a better bunch of caring, helpful people.

Michael Kowalczyk
02-27-2007, 8:05 PM
Jim,
Very interesting thread You started. Have you had time to use that 3mm ply you bought yet?


Phil,
First of all Welcome to the Creek. I'm glad you stepped out in faith when you posted here. Some of the words that come to mind after reading some of the posts that refer to people whom use CNC's and or lasers or any other mechanism that improves quality and efficiency are: generalisation, stereotype, prejudice, close minded and fearful. I do not wish to offend or assassinate any one's character or prejudge some one on hear say but I think the market will speak for itself. Good products whether they are "Handcrafted", "Handmade", "Hand Finished" or hand carried from the trunk to the table will always rise above the others and the consumer is the ultimate judge, jury and executioner. They will Judge if a product is worth the price, their inner circle of friends/family will be the jury by their comments if they like or dislike the product, and all consumers are the executioner and they will either have a stay and keep buying and telling others about it or purchasing ceases and the product is discontinued. (sorry I love explaining thoughts in analogies sometimes)


Until there is a universally excepted definition for handmade, hand crafted or hands on, Manufacturers (which I think we all would fall into that category See Merriam-Webster) will have to find their niche and not take rejection personally. It's mostly a number's game. When I hear a "no" I just say next because I know a "yes" is coming soon. If I do not get a "yes" after several "no's" then I have to reevaluate my product and or marketing.

We use our laser to make one of a kind and mass production originals along with custom made one ups using purchased clip art on a CD or on the net. 99% of our CNC work is all original and sometimes a customer supplied file that I have to clean up to make it work with the program. I would never try to call our stuff off "Hand Made". 3D projects can definitely be Hand crafted or hand finished when applicable.

There are many advantages and disadvantages between a laser and a scroll saw. One of the biggest is price. Just about anyone can get a scroll saw for $300-800 dollars for an entry level machine, where an entry level laser, which has a very small laserable area, starts at around $9,000.00+-. So with just that said I think that the laser purchaser is serious about making some money to have a return on their investment or may have a lot of extra disposable income and like big toys as a hobby:) .
A scroll saw is more hands on where a laser user, at least in my case, is more brain on and a bit of finger tip pushing. I could go on but they are all part of the process to manufacture a product.

Yes, believe it or not, some of the products I have designed have not been winners but I learned from it and some times it was 4th or 5th generation that ends up being the one that hits the bulls eye.

I went off on a little rabbit trail here to show how the end user/customer is the one that will be the deciding factor. If someone did not like my 1st or 2nd design, I would ask them why so I can learn by it and continually improve our products and then sometimes you have to educate the consumer also and then let them decide if they still want your product after you tell them why you chose a certain type of wood, or why you make something a specific size. Where do these play in the scope of "Hand crafted et al"?

Now a few other words come to mind...Experience, common sense, logical, good listener, innovative, fair...

Forum's like this one are a great place to gain knowledge but true wisdom comes from how you use that knowledge.


Remember they almost exclusively used a horse to deliver the mail, pull a wagon/cart, plow a field and so on but can you imagine how life would be now if the internal combustion engine was not invented.

Each of them are just tools that are a means to an end result. None of them do anything by them selves. So whether you push buttons or push wood it still requires a good old human touch.


Either way if we do not embrace technology, at some level, it will leave us in the dust (to dust).

Thanks for reading,

Keith Outten
02-27-2007, 9:00 PM
I got a chuckle when I read the line about laser engravers having access to scanners. I can remember when I owned my first or second scroll saw we had copy machines and it was common for scroll sawers to bang out copies of patterns and even copy whole books of plans.

I guess I have owned my Laser Engraver for about 4 years and still own a scroll saw. As soon as I can get my laser to cut on an angle or let me work freehand my scroll saw is history, it will never happen :)

It all seems kind of comical to me the bickering amoung some people over an issue that is nothing more than a definition. Through the years I have learned to appreciate excellent work no matter what the source, means of production or the skill level of the creator. If it is beautiful work nothing else really matters, at least to me. Neither my scroll saw or laser engraver will produce anything by themselves...they just sit there.

Michael took the wind out of my sails :)

Last but not least I should welcome Phil to The Creek. Phil I'm sure you will enjoy your time here and the friendship that is extended your way.

Dennis Kotlowski
02-27-2007, 9:14 PM
I respect scrollsawers very much and their hard work. I started working with wood because of the woodwork my father did....alot with a scrollsaw...but this is 2007 and technology has changed for the better. I own a scrollsaw that I have recently started using along with my laser. Last year was the first year I started doing craft shows and was not denied for any of the shows I attended and half of them were juried. I was even accepted for one of the top shows in the country in Hamburg,NY. I was approaced by many scrollsawers at shows and their was never any confrontation. Actually, many of them asked obout engraving on their work. I think that many of the scrollsawers that are "angry" that laser engravers are stealing sales from them should aim that at the people that are starting to bring in the "crafts" from china. At every show I did last year I saw somebody selling wood items that were obviously mass produced in china and I have found websites where you can buy these items in large quantities...cheap. I cut and staind my own wood and assemble my product I take to shows so I also consider my items "handcrafted". I have not once taken a design out of a scrollsaw magazine and "mass" produced it. I have purchased design software (laserbuzz,berrybasket) where I have mass produced those....but those designers were compensated for the designs.

**Sorry for the rant**


Dennis
JD Laser Gifts

Robert Alexander
02-27-2007, 10:54 PM
I also respect any woodworker who can take a piece of plywood or wood or raw piece of material and turn it in to something beautiful. No matter what the tools he or she used to create an item. But with the technology and tooling we have today, the term handmade becomes a little blurred.
The photo I posted below is of a door I did with my scrollsaw, but I drew the design in my computer on a C.A.D. program, and printed out all the seprate parts, taped them to some cedar and cut them out and did a little sanding. I took me about 2 weeks to do. Now with my laser I can do the same job in a few days. So where does it stop being handmade.

Michael Kowalczyk
02-27-2007, 11:30 PM
Sorry Keith, did not mean to. :(

Excellent point about the angle cutting but have you thought about attaching a programmable "C" axis to your laser with an adjustable mirror? Yes, I know it would probably end up just a lot of smoke and mirrors but just think if Thomas Edison quit after a few 1000 attempts/failures to make a light bulb we might still be typing by candle light:eek:.

I do not do craft shows, though I have thought of getting a booth in an indoor flea market at one time, but will definitely look more closely next time I frequent one and ask if it is a jury one. I had never heard of that term before this thread. It is always good to learn something new each day and this sure is a good place for that.

Have a Blessed day,

Keith Outten
02-28-2007, 7:11 AM
Robert,

Your door project has the WOW factor without a doubt. Innovative, creative and one of a kind, the first word that comes to mind is WOW! Nice work and thanks for the picture.

Michael,

I do a lot of my own design work but modifying a laser engraver is out of my league, I will have to wait for one of you folks to find a way to incorporate a C axis.

I haven't had a table at a Craft Show in many years nor have I been as a visitor. Sounds like lots of things have changed.

.

Joe Pelonio
02-28-2007, 8:08 AM
I do not do craft shows, though I have thought of getting a booth in an indoor flea market at one time, but will definitely look more closely next time I frequent one and ask if it is a jury one. I had never heard of that term before this thread. It is always good to learn something new each day and this sure is a good place for that.

Have a Blessed day,

I thought I'd share the application form for a juried show that's the biggest in the Northwest. This one would not allow laser or CNC work. There have in the past been booths with hand carving, marquetry, and turned items. We go to this show every year and it's amazing how much people actually sell.

This is considered an affluent city, with median family income of $76,000
but in the nearby smaller towns of Medina (where Bill Gates lives) and Hunt's Point it's $149,000 and $180,000. Just east are cities like Sammamish where it's $104,000. Because of this people come in from all over to sell at this one, and many applicants are turned down. When I took a class in "selling your artwork" many of my fellow students had been turned down multiple times, and were taking the class in the hopes of getting into it.

Artists and craftspeople from the community view artists’ slide submissions in February and March. During the festival, there is also a jury of staff and volunteers who select artists for invitation the following year who are able to forego the jury process. PDF Application below:

http://www.bellevuefest.org/bellevue_fest_application_07.pdf

Phil Sanders
02-28-2007, 11:59 AM
Jim Good:

Well your thread is off on a life of its own now. A lot of people have expressed their opinions, which is good. What is even better is it has been very civilized discourse.

Way too many things to comment on, but let me try this again: a craft show jury is only empowered to insure the compliance of the vendors to the standards of the show's organizers. The show organizers could, if they chose to, restrict vendors to items made to be child safe. (that is an extreme fictitious example.) I am sure there are shows that restrict items to "traditional" methods of making crafts (pre 1801 technology) and the juries enforce traditional (or Neanderthal) craft making; electrical scroll saw users need not apply. I also know there are high end art shows that look just for artistic variety regardless of how it is make. Just because a specific show has a jury, does not mean Laser or CNC made products are excluded. The jury enforces the rules of the show. Read the show rules published by the organizers.

But Jim,
about your question about scroll saw forums. My first question is what knowledge did you hope to gain? I am active in 3 sites, and rarely visit 2 others, and NEVER, EVER go to the MSN groups free pattern places. (I don't need the spam, thank-you very much.) I would guesstimate that at the sites I am active at, about 40% of the discussions are about scroll saw blades (type, teeth arrangement, tension, newbie FAQ, brands, and so forth); Say about 20% to 30% bragging about latest project or showing off a learned technique; an easy 20% on saw brands (saw purchase help, maintenance, cleaning and fine tuning); and what is left over covers everything else.

Yes, I think you would be tolerated at the sites I am active at. And no, I don't think you would be regarded like some huge tree cockroach that just landed on the Potato salad at the family Picnic. Your reception would, most likely, be like the one I got here.

Do stop by, you don't have to be a member to read the threads. One option is to lurk. Try this site: http://www.scrollsawer.com/forum/index.php?
It is hosted by a very good scroll saw magazine. That forum has many members from around the world: Spain, UK, NZ, South Africa to name a few. You can easily see the range of topics is really supportive for a hobby technology; of little interest to anyone else. Search for the poster Carter, who makes free hand puzzles from calendar art. He never sells his puzzles, as it is just a hobby to him. I wish I had his skill. 60% of my puzzles end up as firewood. But Carter's posts may give you an idea for your own creative design projects.

By for now.
Phil

Phyllis Meyer
02-28-2007, 12:04 PM
This is good reading, and I appreciate your input, and the fact that you felt comfortable writing! This forum is top notch and the respect everyone has for each other and what we do is remarkable! I appreciate the hard work, and dedication you put into being an artist with the tools you use, whether it's with your hands, tool, or machine!

We purchased a laser to: Form a business, market, and make enough money to support it, and oh yeah...make extra money! This is my job full time, and hopefully one day my husband will be able to also work with it full time (although insurance may prevent that from happening anytime soon). It does all come down to: "What does one want to accomplish with their tools, machines..."? We are in the process of working with various artists to draw exclusively for us for what we do with our laser. We have spent money on clipart that we don't like, so we decided that we need to go a step further to accomplish what we want. I have the utmost respect for folks that carve, and use various tools to complete their work. My husband just finished a set of beautiful end tables that he has been working on for almost two years (time, job, starting a laser business interferred). I will post a picture after the last coat of varnish goes on. We lasered our most favorite deer scene on them and they are magnificent! These tables are made from a cherry tree that fell during a storm a few years back, my husband from start to finish chopped, sawed, kiln-dried, planed, sanded, (forgive me woodworkers, I may have forgotten a step), but they will be our treasure because they were made from his hands, using tools! And... lasered in our machine!

We have also made the decision not to be in certain craft shows after looking into the rules and regulations. We are going to be in a wildlife show and only after we found out that no-one else doing what we do will have a booth. We are not stepping on anyone's toes, or taking anyone else's profits. What an awesome feeling to come up with a product, idea of your own, and I believe is what most of us are trying to accomplish!

What a great thread everyone! Have an awesome day!
Phyllis:)

Michael Kowalczyk
02-28-2007, 3:01 PM
Artists and craftspeople from the community view artists’ slide submissions in February and March. During the festival, there is also a jury of staff and volunteers who select artists for invitation the following year who are able to forego the jury process. PDF Application below:

http://www.bellevuefest.org/bellevue_fest_application_07.pdf


Joe,
All I could think of is "WOW" and definitely not in the same way Keith used it to describe Robert's beautiful Tree door. I can see some of what they are trying to do by having "Rules and Standards" but when I read rule #7 my jaw dropped and that is where the "WOW" came in. They use "handcrafted" as a MUST of all products but then they allow photography. I have been taking pictures since I was an early teenager and definitely know that it is an "Art" to get a quality photo but where does the handcrafted part come in. As long as the negative is available it can be mass produced. A definition for handcrafted is "To fashion by manual skill". So what is manual skill. Well "manual" can be defined as "relating to, or involving the hands, worked by hands. Also requiring or using physical skill and energy" and "skill" can be defined as the ability to use one's knowledge effectively in doing something; also developed or acquired ability. These are not my definitions but come from my handy 1989 Merriam-Webster dictionary that I keep in my top left hand draw of my desk because it gets used often. Now I am not an attorney but I would challenge #7 as to it's misclassification as to what they define as "handcrafted" and what they allow vendors to sell at their festival. Maybe if they clarified what they called "handcrafted" being no electrical devices, including battery, solar, wind, steam or animal powered tools mechanical devices or any other form of electrical power whether AC or DC, can be used in any of the process to arrive at the final product only YOUR physical hands can be used might clear it up a little. It really just blurs the line because you can always split hairs at each level. Is a painting really handcrafted if the frame was mass produced on an automated line, the canvas was made at a factory using automated machinery, and yes even the paint brush and tubes of paint were made in an automated process. Where does it begin or better yet where does it end.

What Phyllis's' husband did is about as handcrafted as you can get ( I look forward to seeing the pictures) but because they used a laser would that disqualify them from being able to be a vendor at this festival, I don't know but according to the rules probably so.

I illustrate this because the definition of "handcrafted" is in the dictionary but in the public forum I think the jury is still out. Each person has their own skills, craftsmanship, artistic ability and methods for producing a finished product and I love some of the I have seen and I have several books that I have gone through and see how I can take what I have learned and apply it to my methods of producing a finished product.
Even if I do it on a CNC I still have to know what speeds to use with each of the router bits, what type of router bit. Should it be an up shear or down shear, single flute, 2 flute or more. High speed steel, Carbide tipped, Solid Carbide or a PCD diamond bit. What kind of fixture will it require? Vacuum, screw down, glue down, 2 sided tape, C clamp, T-slot hold down and the list goes on. Will the part that comes off the CNC be handcrafted as the handcrafted craft shows define it, probably not. Is it handcrafted as defined in Merriam-Webster's dictionary, I could easily argue yes because my hands are part of almost every process and they are part of the acquired skills I use and as long as "skill" is used in the definition of "handcrafted" in my humble opinion, a product made, in part, on a CNC can still be considered "Handcrafted" but I would not claim it to be solely "Handcrafted" nor do I want to diminish the craftsmanship required to use a scroll saw.

I would rather make 1.00 or 2.00 of fair profit off of 500+ quality products than try to make 500.00 off of 1 or 2 100% handcrafted products in the same amount, or less, of time. That's the business side that puts food on the table and a roof over my head. The woodworker side of me wants to learn how to use a gouge by hand so I can further apply that knowledge to the sculpting tools in my Artcam software that will bless many instead of only a few. What do you think?

Jim Good
02-28-2007, 8:46 PM
I've almost used up all the wood I received from you! I will probably be in some need of more wood soon. I'll let you know. The wood was packaged nicely and was of good quality!

You've also made some good comments in this thread, as well as everyone else. While I was originally interested in the thoughts of the scrollers with respect to the laser folks, I've learned a lot from the comments of my laser family. It really got me thinking and understanding the evolution of what we are doing and those that preceded us. The laser is a technological upgrade and that will be seen as a good thing by some and a not so good thing by others. Like many coaches say, "If you stay the same, you're really falling behind". The customer will ultimately be the final judge.

While I wasn't trying to stir up trouble :D I'm glad we are having this discussion. Phil mentioned earlier that we may have already beat this subject to death prior to this thread, but I didn't find a lot of information on the subject. That is why I threw it out there.

I appreciate all the input to this discussion. I also hope Phil has found a new place to hang out! I would definitely like to see his continued contribution.

Jim

Jim Good
03-01-2007, 12:07 AM
Been a long day at work so I haven't been able to do a lot of responding today. I'm enjoying some down time so I thought I would spend some time here at Sawmill.

Phil, you are right. This thread HAS taken a life of its own. I think it has been positive, at least for me. I have gotten a better feel for the feelings of both the scroll sawers and the laser folks. I have learned as much about my laser friends as I have the scroller population.

I wanted to answer your question about why I would be interested in the scroll saw sites. One reason is I like to see the finished products. I love working with wood and I am impressed with what people can do with it. So when people want to brag about their completed work, I'm a captive audience. It's true, I don't care about the discussions concerning scrolling techniques or types of saw blades. I am interested in some of the things that are common between our crafts. How do you determine pricing? What type of stains look good with specific woods? Do you like to mat your cuttings? Do you go to Walmart or a wholesale framing supplier for your frames? Do you make your own frames? Where do you get your wood? How do you set up your booth at craft shows? What software do you use to make your patterns? Do you want to slap Jeff Zaffino upside the head for making such challenging patterns!?! Ok, maybe the laser guy isn't as interested in that! ;) Anyway, you get the idea. There is some common ground and I see no reason we can't be helpful to one another and share info. I don't want to be "tolerated" on a scroll saw site. I'd much rather be welcomed. By the way, I'm not sure I've ever seen a huge tree cockroach! I have seen a cockroach sitting dead on a cucumber slice in my friend's salad at Wendy's. When he showed them the plate, they took it from him and gave him a new plate but they didn't change out the salad bowl from the bar!!!:eek: Sorry, I digress!

Phil, I'll have to check out Carter's puzzles. So he makes them from calendar art? Could he make me a puzzle from a Sports Illustrated Swimsuit calendar!?! :D Sorry, I did it again. Obviously I'm still a little tired. I can't be responsible for what I say.

Let me wrap this up. One thing I see from the posts is that both sides are passionate about their craft. That is good. The end product is something that the owner will appreciate and treasure. There is a place for both. Certain craft shows want to concentrate on specific "types" of crafts and I respect that. If a show doesn't want a laser-made product, I don't believe you will find anyone from this forum that would try to sneak their way in. I know I wouldn't.

Phil, I hope you hang out over here. Show us some of your work. I know I would love for you to share. The people here enjoy what they do and appreciate seeing the fine work done by others.

Have a good evening, I need some rest.

Jim