12", 10", Powermatic, Grizzly

[Eric Nelson]

I finally have cash in hand, but I cannot choose the perfect cabinet saw. I am by no means an expert wood worker, but I am hoping those who are, can offer their opinion as to the significance of these characteristics I see in each of these saws:

- Grizzly 5959z - This is great looking 12" 5hp saw with the configuration that I want. However, the blade is all the way to one side of the slot. A zero clearance insert won't have much "meat" on one side to prevent particls from slipping between the blade and insert. (see http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=30378&highlight=5959z)

- Grizzly G0605x - This is also a 12" 5hp saw. I have read great things about the riving knife, but never used one. The thing that concerns me here is there is a cast iron wing on the left side of the table, but not on the right. I am not sure if this is a big deal, but the other saw's don't seem to make this same sacrifice.

- Powermatic 1792010k - This is a 10", 5hp saw. This looks like a great saw. However, it is about $500 more than the grizzlys, and it has a 10" blade instead of the 12" blade. It seems like this one costs more, but you get less. I can see the difference between a 12" blade and 10" blade on paper, but in practice, is it a big deal?

I am sure all of these saws are excelent saws. But, given the choices, I am not sure which of my concerns above are significant.

Anyone have any advice, suggestions, or comments?

Thanks in advance!

Eric Nelson

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, one of my first questions would be why you want a 5 HP saw. Do you intend to perform heavy production ripping with a stock feeder?

I would suggest that a 3HP cabinet saw with a 10 inch diameter blade will handle everything you want to do, unless you have some very deep cuts.

I have never needed a 12 inch saw in 30 years of woodworking for the furniture I make, your requirement may be different.

I have no experience with either of the saws you have mentioned, as I own a General 650. I went through a similar process when I purchased my cabinet saw.

I finally decided to pay the premium price to obtain a made in North America saw, versus the General International saw which was about $700 cheaper. I have not regretted the decision.

The largest standard high speed motor (3450RPM) that can be run from a 15 ampere 120 volt feeder is 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 horsepower, claims by the manufacturer aside. If you have used a contractor type saw that plugged into a 15 ampere receptacle, did you find the power adequate? If so a 3HP cabinet saw would be twice as powerful

Choose carefully and you won't have to buy another saw in your lifetime.

Now if I only had the shop that a format saw would fit into...............

Regards, Rod.

[Chris Jenkins]

I'll agree with ROb, unless you are doing production work all day, their really is no need for a 5 HP unit nor a 12" blade.

I currently own a PM66 and I can tell you that thing can run all day long as much as you want to throw at it.

I don't own a Grizzly TS, but I have owned a few Grizzly machines in the past and I can tell you that you will have to spend time tweaking it, which isn't a big deal. What did bother me is I had to constantly clean and wax the top of the casting otherwise it would mark up real EZ. I didn't have to do this nearly as often to my other machines, which were all in the same room under the same conditions.

If you bump to a 12" blade it will be a bit harder to get a special blade as well as a bit more pricey. I guess I would only go up to 12" if you plan on cutting wood thicker than 3". If you get that kind of stock in your work, then 5 HP wouldn't be a bad idea. Otherwise it is overkill.

I heard stories of 5Hp motors being able to draw so much torque on start-up that they actually rack the trunnions of the TS. Don't know if I want to do that to the saw if it isn't necessary.

[Jim Becker]

Eric, while 12" blade capacity is "nice" if you tend to work in very thick stock, it doesn't offer much under most other situations outside of higher blade cost, etc. My saw will take a 12" blade, but I run 10" blades on it.

The PM saw you list is the better saw, IMHO, of the three. It has a riving knife rather than a traditional splitter, a dust collection shroud around the blade and integral moblity for those times when you might need it...like for "deep shop cleaning" or to accomodate an unusual project.

You get the riving knife with the G0605x, but also have a 1" arbor only. (The G5959Z has two arbor choices...5/8" for 10" blades and 1" for 12" blades) Of the two saws, however, I think the new G0605X is the better machine. But it's about the same cost as the PM2K in general and the PM has better dust collection.

There are obviously other choices, but I've limted my comments to the three machines you cited in your OP.

Oh, I'm not bothered by the 5hp...it's getting more and more common, but 3hp is fine unless you are again, ripping very thick stock all day long. If the cost delta isn't much, the bigger motor is nice to have. If it breaks the budget, worry about other things and go 3hp.

[Kevin Murdock]

Just to clarify on Jim's comment about the G0605X... Shiraz posted awhile back that it would ship with an arbor for 10" blades.

Here is the post:
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=47637

Here is the quote:
"It comes standard with a zero clearance insert and two arbors, one for the 12" blades (1") and one for the 10" blades (5/8"). This is something we just completed and the information on the arbors is not in our 2007 catalog nor on our website."

It would be good of them to update the website to show this info as that quote is two months old, but Grizzly as been slow to update it in the past as well. I recall the problem with the G0513 bandsaw recommended blade length being incorrect and causing a problem for those buying blades. Took a long time to update the info on the web after they knew about it. I own a G0513, by the way.

Hope this helps,
/Kevin

[Brian Rice]

PM66, 10", 3HP is my vote. Worth the extra money. You will never wear it out. Brian

[Shiraz Balolia]

[quote=Jim Becker]
You get the riving knife with the G0605x, but also have a 1" arbor only. (The G5959Z has two arbor choices...5/8" for 10" blades and 1" for 12" blades) Of the two saws, however, I think the new G0605X is the better machine. But it's about the same cost as the PM2K in general and the PM has better dust collection.
quote]

Actually, Jim, the G0605X comes with both arbors (5/8" and 1"). That info was missed from the 2007 catalog so it is not widely known. Also this saw features dust collection at the blade which captures a lot of the dust as the shroud wraps around the blade.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0605X/images/5
Also, the buyer needs to figure in the fact that the G0605X comes with side and rear extension tables complete with shelves for storage.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0605X/images/3

Going back to the original discussion about the G5959 12" table saw - I have had this saw in my shop for several years and have always run it with a zero clearance insert. I don't see the issue about being too close to the edge. Must be an optical illusion.

On the matter of the 12" versus a 10". Here's my take on it: I run a very thin kerf blade on my saw, together with blade stabilizers. The blade stablizers reduce your effective cutting height because of their diameter. They will either stick out above the table or hit the bottom of your blade insert when raised too high. So you lose cutting height that you gained by going to a 12", but still have as much as a 10".

On the matter of saw power. I have had a 3 H.P. (G1023 series) saw in my shop for more than 15 years. I also work with 8/4 bubinga and other exotic woods. On many occassions, I had issues of being able to power through cuts because of the 3 H.P. That issue went away when I went to the 5 H.P. Kinda like a V-8 versus a V-6. The V-6 will get you over the hills, but the V-8 will "flatten" those hills!
I still have the 10", but have a permanent dado blade set up on it. Speaking of dado blades - we also offer a 10" set with a 1" hole for those 12" saws, so one does not have to change out the arbor to use a dado set.

[Jim Becker]

Thanks for the features clarification, Shiraz...I was basing my comments on what was on the site that I saw (quickly viewing...) in the descriptions and missed the DC shroud. I think it's important that your web-master get the alternate arbor information up there, too, on the new saw as it could be a deal breaker for some.

[Shiraz Balolia]

I think it's important that your web-master get the alternate arbor information up there, too, on the new saw as it could be a deal breaker for some.

Absolutely right.

[Eric Nelson]

Yeah, I know the 5hp may be overkill. But, all the saws I am looking at offer it. I have the shop outfitted with a couple welders, so wall power is not an issue.

Shiraz, I have seen your work on the Grizzly web site...Nice... Your comments make sense about the blade stablizers, but if I go to a smaller diameter blade (10") aren't I less likely to need blade stablizers? Smaller diameters lends itself to less wobble, right?

As far as the riving knife, is it better than a splitter simply because it is smaller and does not get in the way? It seems that either a splitter, or the riving knife will prevent a board from pinching the blade on the outfeed side. (My last table saw did not have either)

As for the table, it seems like the larger the cast iron table, the more stable the surface will be, and the more massive the saw will be, resulting in a more stable platform. Am I wrong here? Is there any reason I would not want both the left and the right cast iron wings?

The 5959z or the PM is really the configuration I want. If I did go for the 0605x, I would be re-designing the side & outfeed tables to fit my shop.

I really appreciate everyones comments. I have been shopping for about a year now, & I have had the cash for about 3 months now. It's burning a hole in my wallet. :D

[Shiraz Balolia]

Yeah, I know the 5hp may be overkill. But, all the saws I am looking at offer it. I have the shop outfitted with a couple welders, so wall power is not an issue.

Shiraz, I have seen your work on the Grizzly web site...Nice... Your comments make sense about the blade stablizers, but if I go to a smaller diameter blade (10") aren't I less likely to need blade stablizers? Smaller diameters lends itself to less wobble, right?

As far as the riving knife, is it better than a splitter simply because it is smaller and does not get in the way? It seems that either a splitter, or the riving knife will prevent a board from pinching the blade on the outfeed side. (My last table saw did not have either)

As for the table, it seems like the larger the cast iron table, the more stable the surface will be, and the more massive the saw will be, resulting in a more stable platform. Am I wrong here? Is there any reason I would not want both the left and the right cast iron wings?

The 5959z or the PM is really the configuration I want. If I did go for the 0605x, I would be re-designing the side & outfeed tables to fit my shop.

:D

Thank you for your kind comments. I'll try to answer your questions:

1) I always used a thin kerf blade, except when I was ripping plywood, and used blade stablizers with a 10" blade as well. Smaller diameter stabilizers. Forrest makes them with 5/8" bore.
2) Riving knife is the latest "craze", but you are right, a good splitter will do the job as well. The G0605X comes with a riving knife as well a regular splitter guard. By the way, riving knives are nothing new - Euro saws have had them for a long time.
3) The table of the saw is the main support. Wings (cast iron or other) are attached to either side of the table. The G5959Z comes with cast iron wings for both sides because it does not have the wide table on the side. The table on the G5959Z is also deeper than just about any 10" saw on the market. Same with the G0605X. I love the G0605X because the side table is wide, the ripping capacity is huge and the table is solidly supported on the ends with two posts, plus you can add tool boxes under to store blades, wrenches, etc.
4) If you are going to have to modify the G0605X, then you should probably look at the G5959Z because the G0605X was designed for the person that wants a "turnkey" saw that has it all.

Hope this helps.

[Jody Malinich]

Eric,

I have the 5959Z and run it maily with a 10" blade. I have no problems so far. I do cut alot of 8/4 and really like the extra HP. I added the flip up roller table that Grizzly sells (37" model) and really like being able to lower it and gain all that space back. I'll be adding the slider attachment later this year. I don't do alot of sheet goods but when I do it seems like I have to rip a truckload. I had very little tweaking to do to mine. Only problem with assembly was the rails, the manual was not updated and a quick call to costomer support solved my problem.

Jody

[Eric Nelson]

Jody, all,

So, you have not had any complaints about the blade slot? I attached the pics of what my concern is. I got these pics from a person on this site, but I cannot find the thread again:(.

As per the outfeed table, I am going to check that out. I was not aware that Grizzly such a table for this saw. It sounds exactly like what I had in mind.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=58637&stc=1&d=1172234443

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=58638&stc=1&d=1172234456

[Jim Becker]

'Just to clarify the riving knife thing...both a riving knife and a splitter do essentially the same thing, but you have to remove a splitter from the saw when making a non-through cut. Not so with a riving knife because it can be set with it's top just a proverbial below the top of the blade, offering it's "non pinch" and stock support services even when the blade is not slicing completely through the workpiece.

[Jody Malinich]

Eric,

It is closer than most blades, but does not create any problems for me. I do have a zero clearance insert to install just haven't had time. I think the gap is 3/16 or 5/16 away. I can measure later and give you an exact distance.

Jody

[Jim Becker]

Adding to Jody's comments...the spacing to the side of the blade is not unlike that on my MM slider. If you are concerned with the strength of the narrow strip to the side of the blade, you can choose to use a stronger material for your insert, such as a phenolic product like Garolite CE. This material isn't inexpensive, but has the strength that MDF, plywood, etc., do not have in similar dimensions.

[Noah Katz]

"Riving knife is the latest "craze", but you are right, a good splitter will do the job as well."

A riving knife is superior because it raises and lowers w/the blade and can be spaced so that it is no more than a few mm from the blade at all times.

There can be inches between the blade and a splitter where warped could close on the blade.

[Bartee Lamar]

Okay, I gotta ask, have you considered a SawStop.

[Jody Malinich]

Eric,

Measured the gap and it is 3/16".
Jody

[Eric Nelson]

Thanks for the first hand info Jody. It still seems unusual, but if no one has had issue with it, maybe it is not a big deal.

Bartee, as per the sawstop. The safety feature really looks nice, and I would not mind paying extra to get it. But the 5959z is ~$1695, and a similarly equipped sawstop is ~$3,369 (according to each web site). Thats nearly double the price! The sawstop price is simply outside my budget.

[Eric Nelson]

After considering everyones much appreciated input, I have decided I am going to order the Grizzley 5959z. Thank you very much for your input. It really helps a lot.

Shiraz,

I work with a group that designs embedded computers for automobiles, medical devices, industrial devices, etc. If you ever decide to add computer control, or automate any of your tools, drop me a line. Maybe I can return the favor by telling you about our products!

Jody,

Thanks for the measurment, and the outfeed table suggestion. I will be ordering the outfeed table too.

Now begins the wait (delivery)...It is never fast enough...

Thanks,
Eric N

[Eric Nelson]

I haven't had as much time to spend on it as I would like but, here is what I have found so far...

I ordered the saw, a 37" roller table, and a mobile base. I ordered these on a Thursday from Grizzley, and everything arrived by the following tuesday (I live in Minnesota). Talk about fast delivery!

I ripped appart the crate of the saw & assembled it just enough to power it up (no wings, rails, etc.). There was a pretty strong vibration to begin with, but I saw the belts had a pretty strong set. So I loosened the 3 belts, and moved the set of each belt out of phase from one another. I also tightened the belts just a little tighter than what they were. The vibration was significantly less. It passed the nickel on edge test, but there is still some vibration.

I assembled the wings, the rails & drilled the holes in the cabinet for the outfeed roller table. Rather than centering the roller table on the cabinet, I offset it a little bit to avoid the power cord. It took a lot of measuring & thought because I wanted to mount the table in the most usefull place, but I also did not want the mounting bolt to end up under the dust pan of the cabinet. The thought of lifting/jacking the saw in the air & reaching under it to tighten a bolt does not sound appealing. In the end, I got it mounted where I wanted.

Next, I found the recomended roller base that I bought did not have an extension available that would put casters under the rail legs. (Contrary to the picture in the grizzley catalog, the rails do come with legs) But, the next size smaller mobile base did offer the extension. I ordered this one, but as expected, it did not mount up to my mobile base. So, I pulled out the welder & made a bracket. That did the trick.

I have only had time to cut a few scrap boards so far, but it really feels strong & smooth. I never had an outfeed roller table, and after just a few cuts, I don't know why or how I could have lived without one.

To help get rid of the last little bit of vibration I ordered a few feet of link belts to replace the original 3 V-belts. I haven't recieved those yet, so I don't know how effective they will be. I do not measure any runout of the arbor pully (+-.001"). I cannot measure the motor pully runout without removing the table top. If I eyeboll it, it looks like there could be a small bit of runout, but I cannot be sure without measuring it. I also noticed the fan on the motor seems to be off center a little bit, this might also be the source of the last little bit of vibration.

The bottom line is that it passes the nickel on edge test, so I suspect the saw overall is in spec. But, one way or another, I will get rid of that last little bit.

In the mean time, I am ready to start making chips!

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=61617&stc=1&d=1175516380

[Jim Becker]

Congrats on your new saw! It's certainly not a tiny thing... ;)