DC is really depressing me

[Marc Prudhomme]

hi all,
I have to say I have really gotten some good advice on here about machinery and how to start up my basement shop.For the last month I have been using all my freetime to clean and arange the basement to set up my shop.I am ready to buy the last few power tools I need(thx to advice on here)but there is one issue that I am sorry to say that this place has not helped me very much in, and that is Dust collection.I am now afraid for my life and the lives of my family if I do not purchase the right equipment.For about 6 years I have operated a makeshift shop in the basement with some cheap end tools and I never used any collection at all.Now from what I hear on these forums if I dont get the top of the line stuff,it could be worse than having nothing at all.My original intent was to get a 1hp unit at about 850 cfm,portable so I can move it from machine to machine because for the amount of work I would be doing down there I fealt that it would be more than adaquate.From th advice on here I need at least a 2hp unit to move 1200or more cfm with a no greater than 1micron bag.Well its not that portable anymore and I have to use 220(wich I have anyway)and the price has more than doubled what I wanted to spend.I just dont know what to do know and I am at a standstill.It seems the more I read up on the internet about it,the more I get frustrated.
The only thing I can do is take a deep breath(no pun intended)and make a decision.Shopping around for all the tablesaws,mitre saws,planers,jointers,drill presses was so much more fun than this.This part really,really,bites.
My big 2 cents
Marc

[Jim Becker]

Marc, the immediate compromise might be one of the better 1.5hp single stage units, like the Jet DC1100 or Delta equivalent. Both are easy to move from machine to machine and are available with good filtration. Both also run on 120v. Don't delay in buying something to help control dust and chips if you can't afford the ideal. And wear personal protection when machining with tools that create a lot of the fines even when you are using the DC.

[John Bailey]

Marc,

Good choice - take a deep breath and slow down. First, understand, I don't have any type of dust collection yet, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt. I think it would be best if we all had the perfect solution, but that's not going to be possible for most of us. I think the 1200 CFM number is based on a longer run than you will have on your portable system. The portable system will be close to the machine, and 850 is probably going to be plenty. Will it be as good as a 2 hp. cyclone - probably not, but I think 850 is better than nothing. As far as the health concerns, it's a concern, but nothing to get paralyzed about. How many woodworkers do you know, and how many have a health problem? I would bet that the majority of the folks here at the Creek still have some type of portable system, as opposed to the high cost cyclones.

I've read all the information, and whenever there's a passionate debate, opposing views will tend to get polarized, and exagerated. My advise, make the best decision for yourself and try not to let the decision about DC take away from your enjoyment of woodworking.

One thing for sure, you'll get lots of advice here, so take it all in, but make up your own mind. As for me, I would like a cyclone, but it's not going to happen soon, but I'm going to keep working and enjoying.

Hang in there!!

John

[David Wambolt]

Dust collection is an important aspect of a wood working shop. Without it, the environment would be extremely messy and unhealthy. Now I don't think you need top of the line, but I believe the rule of thumb is, some dust collection is better than no dust collection. I don't believe I've seen someone say that if you're not spending $1,000 then you're better off with nothing. In many cases you get what you pay for, but you don't have to sell the family car to get a quality machine.

I personally bought a 1.5hp Jet DC-1100RCK dust collector. It operates on either 115 or 220 and comes prewired for 115V. It's rated for 1100CFM and filters to one or two microns via a canister style filter. Price was $449 with free shipping and no tax from Amazon. Certainly not top of the line and FAR from the most expensive. Reviews were good and I'm happy with the machine. Being portable and smaller was important to me. If I wanted a completely fixed solution, I'd have a cyclone collector of some sort.

[Michael Gibbons]

Marc, I got the 1 micron JDS Dust Force from Woodcraft. It works well. for $ 350.

.......Mike

[Marc Prudhomme]

well david now you have heard someone on here say that.Here is an old reply to my post #9 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=514242&postcount=9) http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/report.php?p=514242)
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Marc

Actually, in some cases something may NOT be better than nothing. You have to get the microns down to a safe level. Otherwise your just stirring up the bad stuff, and potentially breathing in more than you would have if you used no DC at all. A fine filter on a good shop vac is probably better than a cheap DC with a 35 micron bag. I can't prove it though.


Dust collection is an important aspect of a wood working shop. Without it, the environment would be extremely messy and unhealthy. Now I don't think you need top of the line, but I believe the rule of thumb is, some dust collection is better than no dust collection. I don't believe I've seen someone say that if you're not spending $1,000 then you're better off with nothing. In many cases you get what you pay for, but you don't have to sell the family car to get a quality machine.

I personally bought a 1.5hp Jet DC-1100RCK dust collector. It operates on either 115 or 220 and comes prewired for 115V. It's rated for 1100CFM and filters to one or two microns via a canister style filter. Price was $449 with free shipping and no tax from Amazon. Certainly not top of the line and FAR from the most expensive. Reviews were good and I'm happy with the machine. Being portable and smaller was important to me. If I wanted a completely fixed solution, I'd have a cyclone collector of some sort.

[Jim O'Dell]

Marc, just pay attention to the filtration part of it if you can't exhaust outside, which most can't. I would think that the Harbour Freight unit with better filters would be better than a bigger HP unit with poor filters. I think the HF unit is on sale for 169.95, and there is a 10% off coupon floating around. Also one of the wood working magazines had an ad in it with a coupon.
With this said, I have the luxury of exhausting outside in my present location. I also had the money to invest in a 5 hp cyclone about 2 years ago. If I was trying to do it today, it wouldn't be possible to go that route. If you need to eshaust inside, see about the best filters you can afford, then go from there. Jim.

[Marc Prudhomme]

WITH OR WITHOUT THE 1 MICRON CANISTER KIT????(FOR 200 .00 BY THE WAY
Marc, I got the 1 micron JDS Dust Force from Woodcraft. It works well. for $ 350.

.......Mike

[Scott Vigder]

The Delta model 50-760 has served me well for over a year now. It filters to 1 micron with 1100cfm using a 110v 1.5hp motor.

I recently revamped the shop to limit the maximum distance of a tool to about 18 feet from the Delta. Through a series of waste gates, metal pipe, y-connectors and flexible tubing, I am able to get 90-100% velocity of DC at all my tools, including my CSMS, without having to move the unit around. Most of the travel is via metal pipe, so my friction reduction is minimal.

I use a chip seperator, but only for the TS, jointer and planer. I have a 4" to 2.5" reducer on the bench where my drill press and mortiser reside. It's great for overall vacuum/cleaning chores as well.

I find it imperative to use hearing protection whenever I turn it on. I also bought a remote on/off switch for the Delta, and it was the best $29 I ever spent!

I tried to do a diagram in SketchUp, but that will have to wait for another day.

Hope this helps,

Scott

[Todd Solomon]

Marc, you think that the cost of a DC is depressing, my ducting cost more than my 2HP cyclone.

But if you go portable, you don't need as much oomph, as others have said.

There's a new Oneida portable cyclone DC that looks intriguing. I wanted to read about the details, but their site is sloooooooow right now. I'm not sure what the pricing is. Anyhow, Oneida makes really nice stuff, so I'd expect it to be a very clean, top performer. I'd take a look at that, as well as the ones others have suggested.

Todd

[Jake Helmboldt]

Marc, one major consideration is, what kind of HVAC system do you have, and is there any air handler in the basement? If not, then you greatly reduce the likelihood of distributing any dust throughout the house.

For me, I am in the garage, which is good, because our furnace and AC air handler are in the basement. If my shop was down there the house would be a mess (like the garage is).

JH

[Marc Prudhomme]

your not kidding about it being slow.Its still not up while I am typing this.

[Marc Prudhomme]

I have no HVAC.A 50,000 BTU wood stove in the basement is my main source of heat,electric baseboard is secondary.I would assume that fine particles would float up with the heat..

[Raymond Eade]

The Delta 50-760 was rated by Fine Wood Working as the best overall and the best value when they did testing and published it in the March/April 2006 issue. The reason why they gave it best overall value is that it comes with a 1 micron bag. Amazon.com has it listed or 315.00 the last time I checked and free shipping. This is the unit that I will be purchasing next month. The WoodWorking show will be in Chantilly, VA next month and I am hoping to pick one up there.

[Dewayne Reding]

well david now you have heard someone on here say that.Here is an old reply to my post #9 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=514242&postcount=9) http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/report.php?p=514242)
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/statusicon/post_old.gif 01-28-2007, 9:59 AM
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Posts: 89


Marc

Actually, in some cases something may NOT be better than nothing. You have to get the microns down to a safe level. Otherwise your just stirring up the bad stuff, and potentially breathing in more than you would have if you used no DC at all. A fine filter on a good shop vac is probably better than a cheap DC with a 35 micron bag. I can't prove it though.

Marc

Sorry for being the guy that depressed you, now I'll probably make it worse. I am using the Delta 1.5HP the guys are referring too, and intend to improve on that next year. Far from great, but it has the 1 micron bag. I wish I could just tell you not to worry about it, but I won't. My father and I also painted autos, and used to cheat bigtime on the safety gear because we thought it was too expensive. He's not here anymore, and yes he died of lung disease. Sure wish I could trade some of my fancy tools in for some better safety gear for Dad ten years ago. It's clear now that I could have done better.

If you don't have the cash for decent DC, then cut your risk by not using MDF, and other materials that may be hazardous. From everything I read, 30 micron DC is just not a good longterm solution. Most of the guys here are not going to tell you it is, just to make you feel better today.

[Bart Leetch]

Marc

My Dad was a builder & cabinet maker & made his own furniture & never had any DC. He had a broom.

He quit smoking Roytan cigars in 1961 a box of 50 from Friday till the next Thursday afternoon & a handful more to carry over till Friday.

Yes I do recommend a DC what Jim Becker has recommended will work fine.

Oh by the way at 85 Dad's lungs are perfect according to the doctor. I don't think you'll be in & around the dust as much as he was. But if you smoke at all quit now.

[Brian Penning]

I'm happy with my General 1.5HP DC unit with the 1 micron bag.
No one has brought it up yet but I'd highly recommend getting an air cleaner for the basement to help with the dust. U can see mine in the upper right of the photo.
One way or the other, especially if you're going to be using ROS's and other sanding machines, you are still gonna get a helluva lot of dust everywhere in the shop. And I mean everywhere.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f193/Bri68/Miscilaneous/IMG_1973.jpg

[Bill Lantry]

Marc,

Every one of these guys is absolutely right. In each of their worlds, their positions make perfect sense. I take it on faith that we all should have a cylone with six inch ducting and a .5 micron filter. But that's just not the world in which I presently reside. ;)

I started with nothing: a shop vac cleaning up after the fact. Then I saw a cheap ($99) delta at the blue place. It's probably about one horsepower. Immediate improvement. There was still some dust in the air. So I got a filter kit from pennstate. More improvement. Much better, in fact. I got sick of wrestling with the bag on the delta, so I got one of those trash can lids. Even better. Then I turned the unused space above the garage into an attic, and put the delta up there, ran some flexible 4" hose up there, and things were even better. Just today I put the trash can on a cabinet, and reclaimed some floor space. Don't know what I'll do next, but it'll be something to make things better.

My point is that this stuff is a journey, and the best thing to do is to take whatever first steps you can. But do it *now*. Don't wait, thinking you need to start with the perfect system. Don't wait, thinking you'll save money in the long run. Take tangible steps now. Everyone will tell you you didn't do it right, that you took the wrong step, and they'll tell you why you were wrong. Pay no attention. Make *your* world better now! ;)

When I was growing up, some of my friends had hemicudas. Some had fancy european sedans. They were all very nice cars. I always thanked them when they gave me a ride. Then I'd climb back into my hand-me-down '64 tempest wagon, and actually go where I needed to go. In my little world... ;)

Thanks,

Bill

[Neil Bosdet]

Hi Marc,

After I graduated from Shop Vac DC, I had a portable 1 HP DC with a 1 micron bag. It was fantastic! No issues at with the exception that my shop grew and I wanted to move to a permanent set up. I say go with a 1 HP unit on casters with a 1 micron bag. It will do for now.

Neil

[Mike Murray]

I use a PSI 1HP DC in a small, well-designed central system. It's 850 cfm with a 1 micron bag. I have a 5" trunk line with 4" drops to the tools. Set me back a little over $200 w/ TT&L, and works great. I also have 2 air cleaners. The air in my shop is probably cleaner than the air in my house. You don't need to spend a fortune to have clean air in your shop. Once a month or so, I put on a respirator, open the garage door, and fire up the leaf blower to really clear things out.

[Steven Wilson]

Mark, you can either spend the bucks to collect dust properly at source and use sufficiently fine enough filters or WEAR A RESPIRATOR. Money just makes things neater and more convienient. If you are primarily interested in protecting your lungs, WEAR A RESPIRATOR. My suggestion to you would be to give the Jet DC1100C serious consideration and then WEAR A RESPIRATOR.

[Wilbur Pan]

Marc,

Here's my take on dust collection. I like to keep things simple, but I do admit that some of this is contrary to conventional wisdom.

First and foremost, there's no better way to deal with dust than to open a window. This may not always be practical, but it will be better than any cyclone or air filtration unit out there.

From a health standpoint, the dust you need to worry about is the stuff that's ~1 micron in size. You can't see it, except for going back to your shop hours after you've used it and seeing that fine layer of dust on your workbench and tools.

In a perfect world, you'd capture all of that dust right at the tool. That's where the often quoted 800 CFM comes from -- it's the CFM required to scoop up all the fine dust generated by the larger woodworking machines. Unfortunately, there's no way to do that in the real world. Some dust is going to escape.

Given that capturing all the dust at the source is going to be a losing battle, you need a second line of defense. That's where an air filtration unit comes in. There are some advantages to an air filtration unit. Many dust collectors claim to trap particles down to 1 micron. For many, that probably isn't quite true. However, it is much easier to engineer an air filtration unit to trap 1 micron particles, and having seen 1 micron dust collectors and air filtration units up close, I have more faith in air filtration units to snag the 1 micron particles.

One criticism of air filtration units is that they push the dust around without completely cleaning it. I think that there are two reasons for this. First, I think that it is very easy to underestimate how much air filtration unit you need for a given size workshop. It is often stated that at minimum, you need an air filtration unit that can clean the air 6 times an hour. I actually think that that number should be at least 10 times an hour, and preferably 20 times an hour or more. I made a mathematical model of how quickly an air filtration unit could clear dust from a room. If you have an air filtration unit that operates at 75% efficiency (at least 10% less than any manufacturer specs), at 10 exchanges an hour you'll clear 99.999% of the particles in 54 minutes. At 20 exchanges an hour, it will take 27 minutes to clear 99.999% of the particles.

The second reason that air filtration units may not work efficiently is that you may have a "racetrack" phenomenon. Air filtration units are typically placed along a long wall, with the intention of blowing a river of air around the perimeter of the room. Air and dust in the center of the room may just hover there as the river circles around. The easy way to get around this is to set up an oscillating fan across room aimed in the general direction of the air filtration unit. This would easily disperse any standing air pockets.

So why do I think that air filtration units are economical and effective, and so important? Remember that you can't trap all the dust at the source, so you need that second line of defense. Since it's impossible to trap all the dust at the source, you don't have to worry as much about drawing enough CFM through your dust collector, although you should try to optimize this as much as possible. But the bottom line is that is is much easier and cheaper to increase the CFM of an air filtration unit (just buy another unit) than to go to the next step up in dust collectors (going from a ~$300 1.5 HP dust collector to a ~$1000 3 HP cyclone unit, and perhaps have to install another 220V circuit).

Here's what I'm planning to do in my shop. My shop is in my basement, no windows, and is on the small size -- 20' x 11' x 8'. I'm going to get a 1.5 hp single stage dust collector, either the Delta 50-760 or 50-850 or the JDS Dust Force, and make sure that it will have a 1 micron bag, even if it means getting an aftermarket bag. I plan to run a hose to the machine I'm using at that time, and to keep the hose as short as possible (<5 feet). With a short hose run, any of these machines should be able to pull close to the magic 800 CFM. I'm also going to get the JDS 750-ER or the Delta 50-875 air filtration unit. Either one will deliver a real world 750 CFM of filtration. In my shop, the air filtration unit will exchange the air over 25 times an hour. Total cost: $600-650, depending on whether I can catch a sale price.

And, for what it's worth, I happen to be a pediatric oncologist for my day job, so not only am I very aware of the health hazards of dust, but I'm a bit paranoid about it, since to some extent I know too much.

[Bill Pentz]

Mark, you can either spend the bucks to collect dust properly at source and use sufficiently fine enough filters or WEAR A RESPIRATOR. Money just makes things neater and more convienient. If you are primarily interested in protecting your lungs, WEAR A RESPIRATOR. My suggestion to you would be to give the Jet DC1100C serious consideration and then WEAR A RESPIRATOR.

Steven,

I agree with you almost 100% about wearing a respirator for those who work in attached garage based shops, except you also should use a an exhaust fan to keep a negative pressure to keep the dust out of your home when you go in and out the connecting door. Unfortunately, because the fine stuff lingers for six months to years, that respirator needs to go on any time you stir up the air in your shop, not just when you are making dust. I find this pretty inconvenient, so would much rather collect the dust at the source.

For a basement shop that shares air with a home, we have a whole different situation. My recommendation in that case is either work outside making woodworking a fair weather activity or take the time and trouble to put in good fine dust collection. I just can't see contaminating a home makes good sense, especially with some of the more dangerous woods.

It would be nice to be lucky and be able to go a lifetime with heavy smoking and dust exposure, but it is a known fact that all wood dust exposure causes some permanent measurable damage. Each of us is affected at different rates. Eventually the damage depending on amount and types of exposure can cause some some fairly serious wood dust related problems. If the OSHA numbers are to be believed our trapping the fine dust inside instead of blowing it away or appropriately filtering it ends up with most small shops having airborne dust levels two to five times higher than large commercial shops. So even hobbyist woodworkers who do minimal woodworking can build up some pretty serious airborne dust levels. With the worst under 10-micron particles not even being visible without magnification, most of the newer fine filtered dust collection systems create a false sense of security cleaning up the stuff we see and pumping out huge amounts of the fine invisible stuff.

Each of us can do just about whatever we want and get away for a while, some only for a few weeks with the most toxic woods and others for a few decades before building up serious allergies. Unfortunately as I learned the hard way that when you get "bitten" the priorities suddenly change. I personally would trade my whole pile of some of the nicest tools money can buy to be able to go out an play a set of tennis with my son, or even just throw away the supplemental oxygen that follows me anywhere I go. Eight years after trusting my "best" cyclone to protect me which is near identical to the same units most sell today I landed in the hospital and still have problems. Last Wednesday my supplemental oxygen came loose during the night costing me my Thursday and landing me in the hopsital for testing on Friday.

Regardless, I chose to do something about it using my skills as an engineer to take most of the BS out of the advertising hype, come up with my own far more effective deisgns that most copy to some degree now, plus share my web pages so you can go through the steps to get good dust collection. It is a pain in the tail, but doable, not ridiculously expensive, and now thousands are running their shops based on the stuff I shared with help from so many others.

bill

[Doug Shepard]

...
For a basement shop that shares air with a home, we have a whole different situation. My recommendation in that case is either work outside making woodworking a fair weather activity or take the time and trouble to put in good fine dust collection. I just can't see contaminating a home makes good sense, especially with some of the more dangerous woods.
...
bill

Yup. I learned that lesson the hard way. My garage shop pretty much confines my woodworking season to warmer months. But one winter I decided I could set up a Workmate in the basement laundry room and work on some smaller projects. The plan was that this was mostly going to involve dustless type handtool work where shavings or chips could be Shop-Vac'ed up. That worked out well until I reasoned that I could also get away with some very brief ROS usage. Despite keeping the door to the laundry room closed and stopping every so often and vacuuming stuff off things didn't work out quite as well as I'd planned. There was no noticable cloud of sawdust while working on the stuff but within a couple of weeks afterwards, there was a very noticable fine layer of dust on everything - both upstairs and downstairs. What a mess.

I think I could get away with doing this now with my new Festool sander/vac setup, but I didn't own that at the time.

[Bob Spare]

Bill, I am one of those thousands of people that you have made aware of dust collections. TNX

Retired, work 20-30 hours a week in my shop as hobby, got 17 grandchildren to worry about.

So I bought the ClearVue, not because I could afford it....but could not afford not to.

[Dewayne Reding]

I appreciate your website as well Bill. But I think it is going to drive my woodshop out of the basement. In the meantime, is there a published list of wood product types known to be hazardous? Or did I miss that on the website? For those of us stuck in less than perfect circumstances, it would seem prudent to cut the source of danger before you ever spin a blade. Or is this one of those things where we are 25 years behind in our data collection?

[Marc Prudhomme]

Hi people,
I am buying this combo through all your help.In 3 years if I am still into the hobby I will be taking the shop out of my basement and building a garage away from the house.
Better Together Buy this item with JDS Company 14040 Dust-Force 1-1/2 Horsepower 1,250 CFM Vertical Bag Dust Collector, 110/220-Volt Pre-Wired 110-Volt (http://www.amazon.com/JDS-Company-14040-Dust-Force-Horsepower/dp/B0007Y75IE/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_text_b/105-2090032-3146044) JDS Company today! http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/B0000302XS.01._SCTHUMBZZZ_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/JDS-750-ER-Filtration-Electrostatic-Pre-Filter/dp/B0000302XS/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_a/105-2090032-3146044) http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/detail/plus-sign-10x10.gif http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/B0007Y75IE.01._SCTHUMBZZZ_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/JDS-Company-14040-Dust-Force-Horsepower/dp/B0007Y75IE/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_b/105-2090032-3146044) Total List Price: $699.98
Buy Together Today: $589.98


Hopefully the next time I post will be to talk about actual projects(but not likely)I would like to thank all of you for your varied opinion on this very contravertial(spelling stinks)subject.although I would love to slam the book on this Dust issue I am sure it will be brought up again.
Again thanks,
Marc

[Ralph Dobbertin]

I have a basement shop with tiny windows. I have the Delta 50-760 and it works great but I only use the short hose that comes with it and I move it from machine to machine. I then use a dust filter from leevalley http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=30277&cat=1,42401 as well as the portable one http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=30277&cat=1,42401 right over my work bench and I allign them to circulate as best I can. I then keep the windows open as much as possible, which is usually always ( I'M in Toronto Canada). I also place a large fan near the window to help blow air out (the other window lets air in). Finally i wear small respirator http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=31235&cat=1,42207. This works for me.

The only other advice I would give is that you let the Delta have its own electrical circuit. If I used it with my planer on a piece of maple, it would jump the breakers.

Sounds like alot, but once it is set up, you forget about it and have fun.

[Bart Leetch]

I pretty much agree with all Bill says. However if you read Bill's web site you'll find his health is an extreme issue.
Not everyone has these extreme health issues. Just so all bases are covered, you should do what ever you can at this time.

The LOML looked at the 1 1/2 HP DC I was going to buy & said wouldn't this 2HP one & a remote be better?

I have a 2HP with big pleated filter on top & a remote.

[Dewayne Reding]

I pretty much agree with all Bill says. However if you read Bill's web site you'll find his health is an extreme issue.
Not everyone has these extreme health issues. Just so all bases are covered, you should do what ever you can at this time.

The LOML looked at the 1 1/2 HP DC I was going to buy & said wouldn't this 2HP one & a remote be better?

I have a 2HP with big pleated filter on top & a remote.

I know what you mean Bart. I just returned from an OSHA certification course. (Oh man that was a lot like reading the phone book). :)

General guidance has to protect the 5% of the population that might be affected. I suspect I am at least fairly tolerant to must substances used in a typical industrial workplace. Marc and I don't know if our young children will be affected. Imagine how we would feel if we harmed them, after making no attempt to make our house a reasonably safe place to live.

[Jim O'Dell]

Marc and I don't know if our young children will be affected. Imagine how we would feel if we harmed them, after making no attempt to make our house a reasonably safe place to live.

I wish all parents held the same view...at least then they wouldn't smoke, at least not in the house or car. Yes I gew up with a father that smoked...up until I was 4 or 5 years old. He smoked 4 packs a day, then quit cold turkey. Best thing I ever learned from my Dad.
Marc, you've got a lot of good information here. The main thing is if you are concerned about it, do what you can, when you can. For some, that may be a big cyclone set up, for others a box fan in the window. Jim.

[Bill Pentz]

I appreciate your website as well Bill. But I think it is going to drive my woodshop out of the basement. In the meantime, is there a published list of wood product types known to be hazardous? Or did I miss that on the website? For those of us stuck in less than perfect circumstances, it would seem prudent to cut the source of danger before you ever spin a blade. Or is this one of those things where we are 25 years behind in our data collection?

Dewayne,

You asked one of the tougher questions because sorting through the available information will give you just about any answer you want to find. A simple Google search on “wood dust toxic irritant” http://www.google.com/search?q=wood+dust+toxic+irritant&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1 will give over 100,000 references. There are lots of tables on wood dust toxicity meaning which are poisonous, which woods are sensitizers meaning cause us to build up allergic reactions sometimes very quickly, etc. Although just about any of these tables should give most a healthy respect for the dangers of wood dust, most of these tables are pretty dated failing to address many woods and missing many health concerns related to wood such as the following:

Allergen - Causes allergic reactions in the body. Allergens cause us to become increasingly sensitized over time to build up worsening allergic reactions. For instance only 2% to 5% of us will have any immediate reaction to red cedar, yet over 50% of woodworkers who regularly work with red cedar end up with fairly strong allergic reactions. As these reactions become more severe the result can be ever more devastating to our health.
Anemia -Reduces hemoglobin in the red blood cells
Asthma - Causes severe breathing difficulties that if continued can lead to COPD
Cardiac - Can cause heart problems
Carcinogen - Can lead to cancer
Conjunctivitis - Causes watery or prickly eyes
COPD – Can cause permanent conjunctive pulmonary disease with lost of airflow and oxygen exchange
Dermatitis - Can cause skin itching, drying, cracking, blisters and sores
Extrinsic allergic alveolitis - Causes a disease with ‘flu-like’ symptoms
Hepatitis - Leads to infection and damage of the liver
Irritant - Causes inflammation of the skin, eyes, and respiratory system. Trees use silica (glass) for strength and fine glass particles are known to irritate similar to fiberglass insulation, plus these particles can cause long term damage known as silicosis with health problems similar to long term asbestos exposure.
Lesion - Causes marks or wounds of the skin
Mucosal membrane damage - Permanently damages and thickens the f lining of our air passages in our noses, sinuses, throat, etc.
Photosensitization - Creates allergic reaction to light
Rhinitis - Creates chronic runny nose and coughs
Sensitization - Causes worsening irreversible allergic reactions
Silicosis - Causes increasing lung irritation with permanent lung scaring and loss of respiratory function

Most of the short and long term wood dust related health problems come from silica and the chemicals that trees produce to protect themselves from predators plus other toxic chemicals carried by wood from molds, fungi, lichens, pesticides, herbicides, preservatives, etc. The OSHA airborne dust level requirements were put in place because so many professional woodworkers were becoming ill from inhaling wood dust and being forced into early medical retirement. After finding that the OSHA air quality levels did not amply reduce the problems, the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH) came out with its own five times tougher air quality standards. The medical experts want a standard that is ten times that supported by ACGIH and fifty times tougher than the OSHA standard and this is now the European Union standard.

Air engineers whose customers must pass regular government air quality inspections to meet these air quality standards learned long ago we must capture the fine dust at the source. This requires upgraded hoods, larger tool ports, larger ducting, and then either exhausting the air outside or much better filters. Years of testing show we need over 800 CFM at our larger tools to meet OSHA air quality standards, over 900 CFM to meet ACGIH standards, and over 1000 CFM to meet the medical recommendations which are the standard in Europe. With most dust collectors rated at maximums, most really only move about half their maximum advertised airflows in real use, so you are not going to get ample airflow to meet the better air quality standards with any of the dust collectors sized below about 2 hp. Add a filter that has built up an internal cake of dust that does not come out with normal cleaning and we need almost a 3 hp motor driving a 13” diameter impeller to get ample airflow from a good quality dust collector. With cyclones taking ¾ hp and more to force the air inside the cyclone into a tight separation spiral, plus the overhead of adding ducting instead of using a short flex hose and we end up needing better than a 3.14 hp motor turning at least a 14” diameter impeller as the minimum to drive a cyclone and produce the airflow needed at our larger tools to meet OSHA air quality standards. With motors coming in 3 hp or 5 hp, we mostly need a 5 hp motor to amply drive an efficient cyclone. Sadly, many dust collectors and cyclones are grossly inefficient so they may need even bigger motors and impellers.

I tested twenty eight shops with indoor dust collectors and cyclones last quarter and we have others now testing more shops all over the country. Although we are a ways from releasing the results, the news is not good for those who think they are taking good care of themselves by using the better 1.5 dust collectors with fine filter bags or cartridges. The only shop with a dust collector that passed OSHA air quality standards used a 2 hp collector placed outside with open filters and no dust returned into the shop, plus two large air cleaners. The news is equally bad for those who think just any expensive cyclone with filter and vendor supplied ducting is going to protect them. Not one vendor supplied ducting solution tested moved ample air to all of the larger machines. Likewise, not one 3 hp and smaller cyclone with vendor supplied filters passed OSHA air quality levels after cutting just 50 linear feet of MDF shelving material. Only the 5 hp and larger cyclones moved ample air to collect the dust, and frankly most of these failed medical air quality standards because of either hood and or filter problems.

The rules are simple for filtering. We have two standards. For indoor air quality filters are rated when clean and new. This means when new 99.9% of the dust below a given particle size will be trapped by the filter. Dust collection filters are intended for outdoor use where most of the fine dust simply blows away into the outside air so use a different rating system. Vendors rate their dust collection bag and cartridge filters based on resistance so air engineers can properly size the filters based upon airflow and dust loading. As dust gets stuck in the filter pores that does not come out with normal automated cleaning the filters work up to twenty times more efficiently, but airflow decreases and resistance increases. The fact that the filter makers supply a filtering efficiency level on their filters after they build up a cake of dust in the pores known as a fully “seasoned” filter is not the same as rating a new filter. Most hobbyist vendors supply filters that have indoor ratings of 10-microns or worse, but advertise these filters giving efficiencies of between 0.5 to 2-micron protection. This advertised rating does not share what level of filtering will actually be supplied when used in our shops. Some will over clean and others will under clean. Those who clean too much will have filters that pass too much fine dust. Those who under clean cause the filters to plug killing the airflow needed for good fine dust collection, particularly with our undersized dust collector and cyclone blowers. These advertising ratings and cleaning problems are why I have long advocated blowing the air from all dust collectors and most cyclones outside with none returned into our shops.

Bill

[Marc Prudhomme]

Hi guys,
Well its over.I bought the Delta 1.5 horse DC and the Jet air filtration unit(on sale for 200.00)at woodcraft this week and I just finished assembling and mounting.Woodcraft had 10 percent off every power tool in the store so I picked up both units for 525.00 after taxes.I think I did pretty good.I have been pricing for about three weeks now and I havnt been able to get them under 600 for the pair.
I was going to go with the JDS air filter but I am glad I didnt.Not only did I save 100.00 + dollars but I also saved my head from another 4 inches of drop from the ceiling.I have about 6ft 3" from the floor with the jet.
I will be going to home depot this week to pick up the rigid tablesaw.A little electrical work and I should be making sawdust soon.
The delta and the Jet do take up alot of space in my cramped area but I am sure that the air quality will be worth it.
The tablesaw will be my last purchase for a while.I have alot of cabinet work to do in the basement and in the house.I wont be looking for a jointer or a planer till around summertime or maybe later.
Ill take some pics of the shop next week to show you guys.
See ya
Marc

[Calvin Crutchfield]

Marc, you think that the cost of a DC is depressing, my ducting cost more than my 2HP cyclone.


I eventually want the Dust Gorilla 3hp. But, even on sale, with shipping and ductwork, I'm thinking it could hit $2500!

So, today I went to Harbor Freight and bought their 2hp unit. It was on sale for $169 and I had a 15% coupon which I found by googling but it expired today.

So now I will concentrate on duct-work (Metal?, PVC?) and at the end of the year I will pounce when Oneida comes out with a sale and simply swap out the units.

I just assembled the HF 2HP model and it went together fine. I will follow the link that someone posted for the upgraded filter and will sell the unit when I am done with it.

Hope this helps as I think it is a good way to spread the costs over a longer period yet utilizing a DC system as soon as possible.

calvin
by the way, Im new and this is a great place!

[John Bailey]

Welcome to the Creek Calvin. You seem to have come up with a common, and common-sense, solution.

John

[Eric Wong]

yea, what Bill said.:D

Bottom line = do what you can do, do it now, and make fine DC a priority.

[Paul Wingert]

Here's what I'm planning to do in my shop. My shop is in my basement, no windows, and is on the small size .

Wilbur, since you have no windows, have you ever considered running a strong bathroom vent fan? That idea is on Bill's site, and I think it's excellent.

I prop a window fan in my small basement window. I noticed long ago that it made a huge difference with finishing fumes, and figured it would help blow out dust as well. I have an air cleaner too, but I don't think you can beat having the bad air blow outside. The "extra cost" in heat loss is negligible, IMO (especially considering you health).

I'm in the process of putting a clearvue system together, but I still plan to do the window fan, respirator, and air cleaner. I plan to add a bathroom vent fan as well, if nothing else it will keep the finishing fumes down (and I can let it run all night, because I don't like leaving my window open all night).

[Wilbur Pan]

Paul,

The layout of the area of my basement where my workshop is doesn't have any good place to put a vent leading to the outside for such a fan. That's the same reason that there are no windows. I do have a Bilco door, which I could open, but that's only going to happen when it's warm out.

But your comment gave me an idea. Perhaps I could hook a fan into a duct that ties into the vent stack of my house. This is probably a very bad idea. But my excuse is that I know nothing about HVAC systems.

[Jim Becker]

PBut your comment gave me an idea. Perhaps I could hook a fan into a duct that ties into the vent stack of my house. This is probably a very bad idea. But my excuse is that I know nothing about HVAC systems.

Nope...canna' do that!

[Pete Brown]

Paul,

The layout of the area of my basement where my workshop is doesn't have any good place to put a vent leading to the outside for such a fan. That's the same reason that there are no windows. I do have a Bilco door, which I could open, but that's only going to happen when it's warm out.

But your comment gave me an idea. Perhaps I could hook a fan into a duct that ties into the vent stack of my house. This is probably a very bad idea. But my excuse is that I know nothing about HVAC systems.

Inspectors don't like excuses :p

Seriously, don't do it. If you are talking about the furnace vent, you're asking for an explosion. If you mean the plumbing vent, that is just a plain old bad idea. If you mean a chimney, you won't be able to get the air flowing enough to escape. Any other vent stack (bathroom vents etc.) are likely to just cause you problems with fumes/dust getting to other places.

If you can vent directly outside, using appropriate ducting, do it. Otherwise, I suggest looking for alternatives.

A good rule of thumb is that your shop and your house should share as little as possible. That means air, electricity (circuits), etc.

Pete

[Wilbur Pan]

I did say that this probably was a very bad idea. :rolleyes:

[Pete Brown]

I did say that this probably was a very bad idea. :rolleyes:

That's ok. We were just confirming that for you :D

[Richard Blaine]

I use a PSI 1HP DC in a small, well-designed central system. It's 850 cfm with a 1 micron bag. I have a 5" trunk line with 4" drops to the tools.

Any photos of your layout available? I'd like to see how you're doing a fixed system with 1 hp.

[Ted Miller]

I just recently changed homes and shop/garage, from a three car to a two car. In the the 3 car I had the Clear Vue with ducting running through my whole shop to 7 machines and I still wore a particle mask. Now into the smaller shop I have no area yet for the Clear Vue so I am using a 2 hp DC with a Wynn 0.5 mic paper filter on top and move it from machine to machine. I now wear a respirator with new filters while I cut, route, plane or what have you and when I finish my dust making I open the garage door and always have a 20" fan blowing dust to the outside. Now that I am um older, I have allergies quite often and I know its from all the years of no DC in my shop. Hell I grew up around wood guys who thought piles of dust and chips made you a man. My pops today only 72 can not walk more than 50 feet without resting from years of no DC. Scares the hell out of me. But as Bill and Bart have said, "everyone will react different". I look at DC like I am now looking at the Sawstop, pay me now or pay me later, health and safety are my major concern...

[Paul Wingert]

Paul,

The layout of the area of my basement where my workshop is doesn't have any good place to put a vent leading to the outside for such a fan. That's the same reason that there are no windows. I do have a Bilco door, which I could open, but that's only going to happen when it's warm out.

.

You can use a hole saw to cut a hole in one of the perimeter joists (the 2 x 10s that hold up the floor above you), and insert an appropriate sized vent (like a dryer vent). In fact, if your dryer is on the first floor, or basement, that's how the builder likely did it. It doesn't look bad from the outside, especially if you put it behind a bush.